EPTHello TL Mafia, this will be my first game
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
Hello TL Mafia, this will be my first game | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
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s0Lstice
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s0Lstice
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
Be on notice mafia members, I will defend our town's honor to the last. Anyway, just wanted to say hi before bed. I'll be back in the wee hours of the morning, checking this thread when I should be working. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
Can we stop discussion about policy now please? It creates an environment where scum can comfortably post and be 'CREDIT TO TEAM.' Scumhunting must begin now. I'm looking first to sciberbia. I'm not sure if Release reads you as green, but I currently do. More fluff and I'll change my mind though. Your stated purpose was to generate discussion...mission accomplished. I'll be looking for you to make something out of it. ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating. Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton. ##FOS: Miltonkram | ||
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s0Lstice
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Shiaopi, my filter is small as well, yes. The onus is on both of us to contribute. | ||
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s0Lstice
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I will.. ## unFOS: Miltonkram ...for the time being. I'll go over his filter again when back, and see if I agree with sciberbia's latest post. | ||
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s0Lstice
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On May 22 2012 16:25 Miltonkram wrote: sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary. As pressure goes, that's pretty weaksauce. You'll have to do more, Miltonkram, if you expect us to believe you are working in the town's best interest. If you filter stays as it is now as we approach vote time tomorrow, I'll be leaning strongly towards you. ShiaoPi, hegeo has made a case against you and I want to add to it. I called you out, and you said this: On May 23 2012 00:21 ShiaoPi wrote: Regarding my small filter, yes I did not post much until now, but how come that you with the exact same amount of posts (since the daypost) can claim that my filter is small. This strikes me as odd. Why complain about my filter if yours is not that much as well? Discrediting your accuser instead of addressing the accusation smacks of fear. What's with the knee-jerk? You could have easily just said something like 'my small filter will be a short lived problem as I plan to contribute more soon.' What's more, I even put the spotlight on the two of us after our exchange, and before leaving the thread for a few hours: On May 23 2012 00:45 s0Lstice wrote: Just a quick note (I'm on my phone), but days are 48 hours. Shiaopi, my filter is small as well, yes. The onus is on both of us to contribute. ...and your contributions since then are what? Mainly defense, and a half-baked (see:one game) meta argument on Mufaa, where you yourself admit that you may be biased. | ||
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s0Lstice
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Milton, in response to your suspicions of me: I based it on what amounted to a reading comprehension fail. As it seems to be the basis for your suspicion against me, I'll try to clarify. Here is my brief explanation: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 01:32 s0Lstice wrote: I will be away for a few hours, but before I go I do think I read Milton's point the wrong way. It was: a townie posting a read of any kind, vs. a read declaring someone as town. I went with the former, which as sciberbia pointed out wasn't the intent. I will.. ## unFOS: Miltonkram ...for the time being. I'll go over his filter again when back, and see if I agree with sciberbia's latest post. And here is your quote, for reference: + Show Spoiler + On May 22 2012 19:55 Miltonkram wrote: Golden- This early in the game I think any town reads are going to be weak, so I don't see much value in posting them. We have to remember that mafia have 90% of the information here. Posting town reads can just cut into the 10% that they don't know. If there is a time when it's important that we post such information (e.g. we think we're about to die, we think the town is about to mislynch) then by all means post it, but right now is not one of those crucial times. You said we shouldn't post reads on a person when the result of the read is town. I see the logic behind this argument and wouldn't have taken issue with it. I read it as: none of us townies should be posting reads of any sort, as it is giving scummies information they dont have. I think you'd agree that there is no town motivation for saying such a thing? I agree that it appears flighty to ##FOS and un##FOS on you like I did, but the error was pointed out to me and I owned up to it. Regarding your second point, I removed my FOS because the pressure stopped existing, as I was the only one pressuring you at the time. Sciberbia posted his case against you before I hit submit (I usually do a refresh before posting, and my post was sitting there on screen for awhile thanks to a busy day at the office!), and I knew I should address it as it was particularly cogent. I promised to have a look at your filter again following my gaffe to get a fresh read, and to comment on sciberbia's case. If you look you'll see I did as I promised. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
Notice that all I've done is apply pressure. I've never claimed that a small filter is a scum guarantee. Being relatively quiet is plenty of reason to pressure you, just as it is plenty of reason to pressure me. You've responded with gusto, and that's good for everybody, as we have more to go on. I still don't buy your explanation for why you didn't address my accusation. The fact remains that you attacked instead of explained. You wanting to throw the ball my way is fine, but doing so in lieu of a defense to pretty weak pressure (based on filter size, which I agree with you is weak) is scummy. As such I still suspect you. You wonder why I don't focus on him (Mufaa). Everybody is suspicious of him, me saying so serves no purpose. We know already his name will probably come up for lynch tomorrow because lurkers are at best useless and at worst dangerous. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
Gonna go through this in detail. On May 23 2012 08:39 ShiaoPi wrote: --snipped @solstice: If you are not buying my explaination I cannot help you. To me your main argument seemed to be me dropping my suspicions on scriberbia, I answered it and went on to attack you, simply because taking filter size as an argument in beforementioned circumstances seems like a feeble attempt to give a random accusation/suspicion more weight. Therefore you are suspicious in my opinion. You are correct that at the time of that post, the main thrust was that you accused and then backed off sciberbia. This combined with your lack of other input was enough for me to call you out. Your filter size was just supporting information. It was a fact, and I put it there as additional incentive/pressure to get you talking. You've said yourself: On May 22 2012 18:47 ShiaoPi wrote: --snip I must say I really like release's approach until now, we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied. That was basically what I was after. You can agree that pointing out your lack of input applies additional pressure yes? It's simple. If I say "Hey you why aren't you posting?!," all you had to do was contribute and then *poof* the pressure disappears. You say also that I ignored your explanation on backing off of sciberbia. This is half true, as I had accepted it and moved on, but did not explicitly say so. I assumed this was clear in my further accusations of you which made no mention of it. On May 23 2012 08:39 ShiaoPi wrote: On another note you have not answered my other question, regarding you tunneling me all the time when your argumentation which you base it on (contribution, filter size) also fits others. My argument hasn't been based on the size of your filter since that very first post I made referencing you. You want to know why I am still picking on you? On May 23 2012 08:39 ShiaoPi wrote: After I explained my stance on sciberbia all you had to work with was filtersize and my reaction. My reaction was explaining my opinion on sciberbia and an attack on you. You continue to ignore my explaination and just go on about my attack on you. I'll repeat: it's because your defense was to attack me and take the focus off of yourself. My filter size was, and always will be, a separate and unrelated issueto yours. I think you panicked when I pressured you for little content and a wishy-washy accusation of sciberbia, and I wasn't pressuring all that hard. The intent was to get you talking. What I'm doing now is hard pressure, because you keep scummy squirming with the spotlight on you. I obviously have not forgotten my other reads. You'll hear more from me. You, however... ##FOS:ShiaoPi | ||
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s0Lstice
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My suspicion against ShiaoPi comes from his reaction to my initial accusation. You say that we are knee-jerk voting for eachother, but be mindful of the fact that it started with my initial pressure. His response, as I see it, was to try to discredit me instead of addressing the accusation. It escalated from there, but it started with him overreacting to my pressure, and this seemed suspicious to me. As far as tunneling on eachother, I think you are right. As we are getting close to lynch time, I will be spending my time looking at the other cases in depth (as I said in my last post). My filter is full of my feelings on ShiaoPi for others to consider for themselves, and our recent exchanges have reinforced my initial suspicions, but nothing really new has been added. Stay tuned, I'm at work so the interruptions are frequent. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
Hegeo + Show Spoiler + He has had to spend a lot of time defending himself. In his other posts, he has applied soft pressure on a few people but then quickly backs off. He is very apologetic, and lacks conviction. This would all read as nervous townie, except his scumhunting leaves a lot to be desired. He has towed the line on ShiaoPi some, but beyond that, all there is is a Mufaa pressure. This appears to be his only decisive action. I will consider voting for him sciberbia + Show Spoiler + I don't love that he was warned for making fluffy posts, and then continued to do so. Release has stated this before. The most egregious example is the post directed at Mordanis where he accuses him of 'jumping all over him.' This response seemed overblown and pointless to me. Defending against an imagined slight is questionable to me. His one accusation of note is against Miltonkram, which I thought was a good start. The pool gets muddled when he switches back to hegeo, but that doesnt remove what I think is a decent attempt on Milton. Because he has made attempts to scumhunt, and is actively trying to contribute, I would not feel comfortable voting for him today. Miltonkram + Show Spoiler + Ah wow, I had this written, then refresh and saw Milton posted a defense. Put frankly, I think he has adequately defended himself. I dont like his out of sequence and seemingly random Mufaa vote, but as he said, he was doing it not as his main thrust, but in addition to pressure on ShiaoPi. He screwed up in pressuring me, just as I screwed up when I pressured him. It's a knock against both of us, but I dont see it as damning. Other than that, he has been after ShiaoPi. He supported the existing case and added some new content to it. I see nervous townie play, trying to make all the right plays, but coming through as inconsistant. I would prefer not to vote for him, but will do so if it means him or nobody. ShiaoPi + Show Spoiler + I don't want to rehash, all I want to say here is that this is where I feel the strongest. I see also that he has posted a bit ago while I was writing. I'll have a look momentarily and comment as needed. Voting for ShiaoPi would be my wish, but if it doesn't get any traction I will look elsewhere for now. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
The OMGUS is there I think. I'd prefer to not cease communication with each other however...I'd rather try to make it constructive. You say there are parts of your counter-pressure I have not answered. Can you tell me what you would like answered? | ||
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s0Lstice
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s0Lstice
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+ Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote: ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating. This was two pronged pressure. First prong is your filter size, second prong is you backing off your slight pressure on sciberbia. Your response is this: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 00:21 ShiaoPi wrote: If you reread my first post on sciberbia I would have assumed that it was easily visible that I had a bit of concern regarding him but not really a suspicion. Regarding my small filter, yes I did not post much until now, but how come that you with the exact same amount of posts (since the daypost) can claim that my filter is small. This strikes me as odd. Why complain about my filter if yours is not that much as well? You explained your view on sciberbia. This answered the question: why did you back off sciberbia? The second question was: why is your filter small? You answered: yes my filter is small, why is your filter small? I look at that and think: he just answered a question with a question. And more, his question was an accusation at his accuser. He would now discredit the questioner/have the discussion be about me instead of him. The scum motivation for this is to get the focus off yourself. I don't really see a town motivation for not answering a simple question. This got me suspicious of you. You address this specifically in a reply to hegeo's pressure: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote: I was being put under suspicion so I defended myself, sounds pretty reasonable? You can interpret text in many ways, if we assume that I said "had no time/wanted to see how things go", you can also claim that it looks scummy, it really is a matter of interpretation. I see nothing wrong with my defense, firstly I clarified my stance on sciberbia, then I point out a flaw in his 2nd argument. Here you acknowledge that you didn't answer the second part of accusation, and instead accused your accuser. This maintained my suspicion. What you called 'pointing out a flaw,' I called bringing in a separate and unrelated issue (my filter size) to deflect the pressure. A quick note on my filter:+ Show Spoiler + I'm not saying I'm not accountable for my content. I will answer for it if someone has a problem with it. I know you did before ShiaoPi. My content has been: to build a case on you, take the time to read all the other major cases in the thread and comment on them, some defense, promote discussion early on, and discourage needless focus on an obvious lurker. Now this: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 07:12 ShiaoPi wrote: Contributionwise I admit that there was not much from me yet. I gave my opinion on the cases others have posted and pointed out that we have a hardcore-lurker (which is more than just a "half-baked metacomment") right now. Really contributing as in lots of activity and some cases, are Release, sciberbia, hegeo and Mordanis. That makes 3 other people besides yourself, whose list of contributions is just as "meager" as mine and still you do not tunnel them. Why? Because of my small filter? But what about Mufaa's? Your argument of small filter = scum/should be pressured seems to go haywire with your case against me, so I naturally suspect you. Here you defend your lacking filter, and I believe this is the first time. You basically say that you have commented on other cases and pointed out a lurker. That stuck out like a sore thumb, it seemed to me a paltry contribution, even with your comments on your playstyle. The follow-up is also very telling. You again shift the focus by bringing in other names, and then go on the attack again. I see this as scummy. You speak more on it here: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 08:39 ShiaoPi wrote: If you are not buying my explaination I cannot help you. To me your main argument seemed to be me dropping my suspicions on scriberbia, I answered it and went on to attack you, simply because taking filter size as an argument in beforementioned circumstances seems like a feeble attempt to give a random accusation/suspicion more weight. Therefore you are suspicious in my opinion. To me the character of these words is summed up as 'I wont respond to weak pressure. You want me to talk, you have to seriously pressure me.' This is not inherently scummy or town; it is important for all players to be economical with their words, and pick their battles. What it made me want to do is pressure you more, and follow through with my initial read. Concerning your activity, its all well and good if you want to play laid back on day 1, but you also have to understand that this is another strike against you as scum typically play this way. You dont come down hard on anyone but me (the one going hard after you), and a lurker. Your defense on this appears to be, 'this is how I play day 1 guys.' This on it's own isn't a big knock against you, but when added to everything else it certainly isn't nothing. One last thing on this: the posts where you site a passive day 1 playstyle when others. This would have functioned as a response for me. Was this not simpler, more town? You address this here: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote: I was being put under suspicion so I defended myself, sounds pretty reasonable? You can interpret text in many ways, if we assume that I said "had no time/wanted to see how things go", you can also claim that it looks scummy, it really is a matter of interpretation. I see nothing wrong with my defense, firstly I clarified my stance on sciberbia, then I point out a flaw in his 2nd argument. yet here you say: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote: I am simply not playing as aggressive as Release is and therefore I naturally lack "original" content, as you already pointed out my playstyle might seem as you phrased it: Seems to me like a not too shabby way to play on Day 1. Not much yet you can base reads off and still quite some time to the deadline, whose approach always brings out the more mattering posts (at least in my opinion). You say you didn't want to cite your playstyle in the first defense because it could be interpreted as scummy, yet you go on to cite it anyway when further pressure was applied. The way you talk about your play seems very inconsistant. So I need to wrap this up because vote time nears. I hope this makes it clear why I suspect you. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
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s0Lstice
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s0Lstice
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s0Lstice
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milton: sciberbia, shiaopi, golden hegeo: release, mordanis shiaopi: milton we wont be getting a lynch if you guys stay put. if i add to milton, that makes only 4. there needs to be some movement | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
##Vote: hegeo | ||
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s0Lstice
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##Vote: Hegeo | ||
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s0Lstice
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s0Lstice
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s0Lstice
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On May 24 2012 08:27 sciberbia wrote: Dude worst timing ever. You realize the deadline is in 5 minutes? This is either just bizarre townie play or a really really desperate mafia move. Seeing as I can't even read your post in the next 4 minutes, there is no way we are lynching Release or Mordanis. He says right in the header that he's been working on this the entire time, and presumably wanted to get it in earlier. I wish he would have dropped a quick note to that effect, but it seems like he was pretty engrossed. | ||
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s0Lstice
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s0Lstice
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s0Lstice
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s0Lstice
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s0Lstice
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It's going to be a busy day at work for me so I'll be out of action until late afternoon/early evening. My plan for then is to have a long look at hegeo's final accusation post and the corresponding defense posts. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
1) + Show Spoiler + As far as their early interplay is concerned, Mordanis appears to be the one affected by Release's gravity, and not vice versa. In the early game I see there exchanges as just generating discussion, nothing more. Release and Mordanis both mention this in his defense and I agree that it doesn't look scummy. The "us" that Hegeo mentions I think was meant by Mordanis to mean 'us citizens of liquidia,' as in all players. Why did you not address this in your defense Mordanis? Lastly, I feel the argument that Release and Mordanis, as scum, wanted to be super active to fool people who think that scum aren't active really is definitely WIFOM. I assign no value to it. 2) + Show Spoiler + Hegeo points out a very obvious contradiction in Releases statements. He is spot on here; it is a contradiction, and looks scummy. Can you address this Release? I didn't see it in your defense. The rest has little weight to it in my eyes. 3) + Show Spoiler + I just don't see anything here, except for Release being guilty of some OMGUS. He has been aggressive all game, so I kind of expected it. Release's mistake of 3 mafia, is just that: a mistake. Recognize it for what it is, it's not scummy. If anything, Mordanis may be guilty of a little buddying. Buddying is at worst scummy, and at best detrimental to town. Here I just see it as slightly bad town play. Concerning the two of them not orchestrating their attack on Hegeo, Release and Mordanis both correctly addressed this in their defenses. They both could see what the other was doing, no need to ask. 4) + Show Spoiler + The switch to sciberbia isn't much of a point. Both Release and Mordanis were of like mind on Hegeo, so if someone comments on the case, they will of course both comment on it as they must defend their reads. The name mispelling is weird, to be sure. That said, I know I have almost mispelled it myself. I for one believe the accused explanations here. 5/6) + Show Spoiler + this is a summation of sorts of his argument. He continues on the theme of buddying, but I dont feel he has built an overly strong case for it. Again, Mordanis kind of buddies Release? He accuses Release for being angry at his inactivity. I see this as Release continuing to be aggressive, as he has been all game. There's just not really anything compelling here. I wont address 7, because it is instructions to people who believe his case, which I dont. What I honestly see is aggressive, opinionated, and overtly critical play with Release, and emotional, pack mentality play from Mordanis. Neither is painted as dead red scum to me by hegeo in his accusation post. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On May 25 2012 08:29 sciberbia wrote: One of s0lstice's posts really caught my attention. I just want to point it out now in case I'm dead in 10 minutes. In the minutes leading up to the deadline yesterday, hegeo made his final post: a giant, well-formed accusation of Release and Mordanis. At the time, me, milton, mordanis, shiaopi, and solstice were online. Everybody but solstice seemed a bit taken aback at the situation. Hegeo's post made him look town, but none of us were really sure what to think. Here are our reactions: me: + Show Spoiler + On May 24 2012 08:27 sciberbia wrote: This is either just bizarre townie play or a really really desperate mafia move. Miltonkram: + Show Spoiler + On May 24 2012 08:33 Miltonkram wrote: Good night hegeo, if you flip town at the very least we can take your last post and it's accusations seriously. Mordanis: + Show Spoiler + On May 24 2012 08:33 Mordanis wrote: But don't you have to copy the code from the thread for this type of thing? This is such a weird situation......... ShiaoPi: + Show Spoiler + On May 24 2012 08:37 ShiaoPi wrote: Anyway, really waiting for the flip now... On May 24 2012 08:46 ShiaoPi wrote: townflip, even blue..... Mordanis and Release you should better prepare a damn good defense now s0sltice: + Show Spoiler + On May 24 2012 08:41 s0Lstice wrote: lol. if you think he is going to flip anything but green now you are nuts. posturing by you. On May 24 2012 08:55 s0Lstice wrote: I guess that explains his mostly soft pressure. He sounded like a politician up until that last post, not sticking his neck out. My #1 newb fear was confusing blue for red. I find it suspicious that s0sltice was so sure hegeo is town, and had a quick explanation for hegeo's behavior. Only the mafia actually knew for a fact the he was town. I looked through solstice's filter and didn't find anything else I had an issue with, so I'm not prepared to say he is definitely scum, but it really strikes me as something suspcious. Again, just wanted to put it out there in case I die. He says a few times throughout his final accusation post that he sees the deadline approaching as he's writing. He says it again after he posts it. It was clear to him that the lynch was going to happen, but he kept going. He even posted a quick rebuttal against Mordanis just before the lynch happened. There is zero motivation for scum to behave like he did here, knowing that they are gonna flip red in a matter of minutes (even seconds...his final rebuttal was after the deadline had passed). I thought this was pretty obvious... Also, farewell and gg to sciberbia. | ||
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s0Lstice
United States1832 Posts
He's got two big problems in my eyes: scumhunting and accountability. He's got 10 posts, so let's see what he has been doing to find scum. Instead of including all of his quotes, I thought it would be better for you the reader to open his filter and follow along with me. Scumhunting + Show Spoiler + Posts 1 and 2: + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On May 22 2012 18:06 O.Golden_ne wrote: Good evening all, Well i've been following everything today via iPhone at work, but i'll be most active in the evenings. Such as now! Okay to start things off, Release has taken a very aggressive stance. This seems standard, someone always needs to shake things up. That being said, it was fairly amusing watching him post #FOS at anyone posting. I had a LOL at my desk. While it is good to shake things up, which he is doing. I do feel like he sort of shut down several good points that both Mordanis and Sciberbia have made, and is picking on some very minor problems with their posts that would be expected so early in the game. Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release. + Show Spoiler + A better word for "mistake" in this context is "slip", and i advise people to use slip in the future because it more accurately denotes what a bad mafia would do. I think take a bit to absorb what everyone is saying. Please remember that there are 7 of us Town and while discouraging fluff is essential in dissecting the mafia from the pack you need to keep in mind that the majority of us are town and we WANT to promote discussion. Pointing the finger at everyone that talks, for semantics OR their opinions is perhaps not the best way to encourage people to engage in a profitable discussion. To add my 2 cents on the DayOneLynch (D1L) I agree with hegeo, Release and Mordanis. It is my opinion that on day one we need to lynch someone, it provides a lot of information and in the optimum situation we can get lucky and hit a mafia. I'd rather mislynch one of our own, then wait a day and one of us get sniped. Ending up in a similar circumstance to the start of D1 just minus a player. Ugh. Also, i consider lurkers to be quite scummy. So unless a lurker posts some seriously good content every day, they will be under some scrutiny from myself. @Miltonkram, what is your on opinion on hegeo's statement: + Show Spoiler + On May 22 2012 20:45 O.Golden_ne wrote: @Miltonkram. good point. this early in the game it IS unlikely anyone will have a solid town or mafia read. I think it's crucial everyone establishes a list of who they suspect to be town and mafia. However, it might be wise to only publicly question, accuse and point suspicions once you've got several points of reasoning. As i don't want people to have to be defending themselves against 'scummy' accusations due to poor semantics and one-off poor wording. I think people's overall playstyle is a much greater indicator of their allegiance then a one-off slip (or mistake). Obviously other's may have a much more reactive play style where they will prefer to isolate single remarks. Though i want to take a look at a larger picture before casting my votes. Note that if other peoples reads on single-posts match with my overall read of a player i'll pay it attention. (and if someone makes some high level analysis of a post) TL;DR 1. Unlikely to have solid town/mafia reads this early. 2. Keep a personal list of reads. 3. Only post accusations when you've got some good reasoning rather than pointing the finger willy-nilly. 4. IMO. A players overall style should have a more considerable weighting than a one off post. I will vote accordingly unless there is a good analysis of why a players post may be a scum-slip. My intention for this post is to try add a little structure, so that when deadlines start looming we're not left flailing in the deep. Also, just reading Hegeo's recent posts. I didn't even notice Mordanis's comment about me. He was in my first (and last) game and i enjoyed his play style as he was fairly active. I however was not, and had to pull out of that game due to personal reasons. I plan on being quite active and want to keep my posting fairly succinct, my posts in the previous game became large walls of texts and i want to avoid this. So i have and will be including TL:DR's wherever applicable. These are mostly fluff and policy discussion. In post 1, he criticizes Release on his play style, talks lynch policy, and says lurkers are bad. Pretty lightweight stuff. He also directs a softball of a question to Milton, which in his third post he attributes to wanting to get Milton to talk. It's fluffy, but his stated goal makes sense. Post 2 is really more policy discussion and "advice." His general tone is wait until you can craft a solid case on someone before pressuring them. His advice is not helpful at all. Of course everyone is going to be making reads for themselves. Early posts will naturally be content light, still it's something to keep in mind as you continue reading. The comfort level is very high early on, so it's easy for scum to post without fear. Post 3: + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 06:14 O.Golden_ne wrote: @Sciberbia: RE: Miltonkram. I was getting exactly the same read. I have found all his posts to date fairly inline with what i have experienced as mafia in the past. I have wanted to hear more from him since his first post, that's why i directed my question to him. His answer has a good point about us not having much information currently to make any solid stances, however he DOES side with all the safest views and DOESNT put anything ground breaking or new into the public arena before sidelining and going to bed. Definitely need to hear more from him before the day is out if he plans on having a leg to stand on, as i can see at the very least a case forming on him for being fluffy lurker. @Mordanis: RE: Hegeo. You raise some good points, but like i said earlier i can't base a vote on just a single incriminating post. Sometime people only have a short amount of time to zip into the thread and post. and in my experience ALL rushed posts come off with a scum vibe. So i for one am going to let the "coincidence" debate slide on this one, and try read a little further into other statements today before casting my vote. This is very important to establish early on also, for everyone. If you're town, you've got nothing to worry about other than posting as much info as you can before you die. We all don't want to be lynched because playing is fun, however its more important to play WELL than to play for a LONG TIME. Play for the team, not for yourself as thats how scum play. @Hegeo. I'd love to see your response to Releases accusation. As his is the most tangible accusation to date. Because he's acctually got a vote behind it! Please rebut. I'll be posting more in my lunch break in 5 hours. c u soon He comments on two active cases. In the Milton case, he says it looks scummy to side with the prevalent moods in the thread, and to not add any new content while doing so. Note that he does exactly this in post 3. He catches a ride on these two building cases, and doesn't add much of consequence to them. Commenting on Hegeo, his ideas can be summed up as 'let's wait.' This reads as very cautious/non-commital. Post 4: + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 17:05 O.Golden_ne wrote: @Release. Sorry, i am here don't stress, it 6:00pm and i finished at 5:00pm l logged on the moment i got home!! It's hard to make time except for after work. I am catching up on all the happenings and will post a more in depth post in a moment. this is an explanation of why he missed the deadline he set for himself. I'll return to this in the accountability section. Post 5:+ Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 18:14 O.Golden_ne wrote: I want to post a few of my reads so far in the public arena, hopefully my separation from todays events will give me a different perspective and perhaps help in focusing from the 4 or so cases down to a smaller number. 1. Mufaa. Obviously useless. I'm more than happy to give him the boot, however before we do i'd like to look into some other avenues of lynching because if he keeps up his current style and fails to post a vote before the day is out he will be modkilled. Why waste a lynch on someone who is most likely to get killed by moderators! haha. That being said if he posts intermittently just to hang into the game. then we instantly should usher him from the game as it's fairly obvious he's just hanging around to get his Mafia night kills in. 2. Miltonkram (open his filter in another window for this, it should be easy to follow and not too long.) Just to state the facts. His first few points were very summary-esque. I'm wary of these sorts of posts early in game as it means a player can conceal their views and reveal them at a later date when real discussion is happening. It gives the impression that he is contributing whereas he is actually delaying input so to clutter later on. next. he moves to pressure s0lstice. (after s0lstice posted, then removed his #FOS) in what i see as a defensive measure under the "rationale" that s0lstice should have continued with his pressure. it is my opinion that he did this to cement his 'innocence' by 'promoting' a more thorough pressuring in future. next. after his accusation of s0lstice (FOR ALTERNATING HIS #FOS TO QUICKLY) do you know what he does? His next post in his filter is moving his defensive #FOS against s0lstice (quite hypocritically i might add) onto another player (ShiaoPi). next. he avoids his next suspicion (ShiaoPi) and jumps on a bandwagon of voting against Mufaa. (which i'm fine with, except for the context its in) I feel that Miltonkram's play is quite scummy. 3. Hegeo I pretty much agree with Mordanis on this player, but i will reserve voting. 4. ShiaoPi This player has been very defensive the whole game. It's hard to get a read from someone when they are being defensive. He does a good job of trying to avert suspicion from him. The problem with defensive play is that you start to get suspicious of the person accusing you. Thoughts & Comments Obviously i need to read a little more into the other players but these are some i have focussed on so far. Miltonkram sticks out to me the most out of the non-lurkers however. I urge everyone, both people being defensive and offensive. To have a re-read over the person they are accusing/defending and try to see their other posts that arent aimed to you. Perhaps you will get a bit more insight into their position as remember there is 7 of us trying to figure this out! ##FOS Miltonkram This one is important. This is the first real meaty post he makes. He starts with Mufaa. Pressuring a lurker; yes, sometimes necessary, but also very safe. This is like 99% lean meat. His thoughts on Milton is where it gets interesting. First, have a look at Milton's post before he FoS' me and then ShiaoPi: On May 23 2012 06:16 Miltonkram wrote: --snipped With the discussion generated I think there is finally enough info for me to start making cases. I'm currently reading through people's filters and making notes on them. I'll post again soon with my scum reads. I'm getting more and more confident that I have a couple solid cases to make. He states his intention to lay out a couple of cases he has been building. He starts with me. I feel he had justification here, as I didn't really explain my mistake in reading comprehension as well as I could have in regards to an earlier post of his. When he FoS' me, I realize that what I thought was a satisfactory explanation in fact needed more. I flesh it out so we are on the same page, and he drops his FoS. Make what you will of the double derp fest that we had, but the takeaway message here is that Milton in the end was satisfied with my explanation. Now, with that resolved, he immediately moves on to his second case against ShiaoPi. He said he had a couple, so we should be expecting two, no? There is also no reason to wait between posting the case between me, and the case between ShiaoPi. If he does, he could be dinged for guaranteeing two cases and only being forthcoming with one. Following his ShiaoPi case, he places a cursory vote onto Mufaa. I see this as good thinking. If you are going to pressure a lurker, this is the way to do it. You can vote for them with a very simple case of: you are not talking, please do so. We as townies have many tools to apply pressure. We can use words, FoS, and our votes. Milton uses his words and FoS' against me and ShiaoPi, and pressures a lurker in an efficient and fluff-free way. I see this as good play. This is the major point that Golden has against Milton...that he is flighty and indecisive with his suspicions. Reading what you just read, do you think he has this right? I feel he got a fair amount of town cred with his point here, because he put words to the thoughts going through many people's heads on Milton. Looking back, it is undeserved. I think this is why he has avoided any serious scrutiny yet. Next he gives his thoughts on Hegeo. Actually it's just a single thought: I agree with Mordanis, but I'm not going to vote right now. No reasoning for why he agrees, or why he doesn't agree enough to vote. Lastly he gives his read on ShiaoPi. Here is his read: I have no read, he is playing defensively. Pure filler. In his thoughts and comments section, he admits that he needs to spend more time on his reads. Ok, I'm glad he is addressing this. When I saw this I am inclined to cut him some slack. We will return to this later. He finishes with an FoS on Milton. This is coincides with his post and is expected. Post 6)+ Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 19:27 O.Golden_ne wrote: @ShaoPi your #FOS of s0lstice seems to be more in retaliation to his argument against you that of any solid evidence. That being said. @s0lstice, i can't see any reason why you're going for ShaoPi. both of you seem to be tunnelling eachother for knee-jerk voting the other. could each of you please write in dot points your arguments. I just need a simplified summary of your cases as i'm having trouble following them. @Miltonkram. Thank you for your swift reply. I understand that you can now see the holes in your play and it looks like you're ready to get into the swing of posting a bit more content. To get that started.. can you clarify your stance on ShaoPi for me in dot points also. i'm still waiting to see the community's response to my post on you and i'd like some discussion before i remove or act on my #FOS. your comments have been noted. This post is filler, and creates more filler. He says me and ShiaoPi are tunneling eachother. The presumed intent of saying this is to stress: stop tunneling! Except after this he encourages us both to restate our entire argument against eac hother. This seems like a contradiction, and as said, encourages the creation of more filler (rehashed arguments). He also cuts Milton some slack, saying he recognizes that Milton has realized some holes in his play, and is ready to contribute more. For further slack, Milton is to post his views on ShiaoPi. He leaves his FoS on Milton until he gets more input from the community, and presumably from Milton himself. Post 7) + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 19:35 O.Golden_ne wrote: I'm liking that concise post sciberbia. Goodluck in exam. I agree with this point. Mufaa is a very easy option for us to lynch day one. Consider that he may be used as an escape option for the Mafia in day one. I personally think he will be modkilled. If Mufaa isn't modkilled i'll be super suspicious of him. BECAUSE, the only thing that can him from a modkill is a vote. Lurking that hard, followed by a vote is good grounds for a vig snipe or a day 2 lynch. I'm out for while. Lurker talk. The message he is conveying here is that if Mufaa swoops in and votes at the last minute, he will be super suspicious of him. Obvious...useless filler. Post 8)+ Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On May 24 2012 06:32 O.Golden_ne wrote: thank god i didn't miss the deadline. I went to sleep and forgot to vote. I'm going to stand by my earlier posts about miltonkram. but before i vote i want to say that i will change to Hegeo in the case that we dont get enough votes for a lynch, i like Mordanis and Releases argument on him. In the case the miltonkram flips town, i'm going seriously question ShiaoPi however. @Hegeo can you please swap your vote of Mufaa, he is most likely modkilled. ##Vote: Miltonkram He casts his vote for the lynch, and it's Milton. He says he's going to stand by his earlier statements. Remember he said he was going to withhold judgement until he gets new info. Yet, he makes no reference to any info that affected his decision. Also, note that Milton has obliged his earlier request and shared his thoughts on ShiaoPi: + Show Spoiler + On May 24 2012 02:54 Miltonkram wrote: My top scumread is still ShiaoPi. Essentially, he plays scum exactly how I would. His entire D1 posts have been pretty wishy-washy and noncommittal, allowing him freedom later in the game because he hasn't actually tied himself strongly to the information or accusations in any of his posts. With that in mind let's look at his first post. + Show Spoiler + Just came back from university. First of all we should definetly go for a lynch, no-lynch is (at least in my opinion) utter nonsense. Regarding Lurkers, I believe that they should be put under suspicion especially in a 9 player setup. I was in the same game as mufaa and lurking screwed us over pretty badly in a 13 player game. I must say I really like release's approach until now, we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied. The only slightly suspicious thing until now was sciberbia's long post and his absence since then, but until he responds there is nothing to make of it. Here's what he does, he compliments the most active player early on (Release) and talks about playstyle. Then he adds some weak suspicions toward sciberbia. Suspicion that he can easily back down from, and that certainly isn't breaking any new ground. Wait, doesn't this sound a lot like another early post? + Show Spoiler + Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me. Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say. sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary. That's right, his entire first post is a rehash of one of my first posts. A post I made before him. If my first post wasn't breaking any new ground, his certainly wasn't. It seems a good way to blend in with the crowd without sticking his neck out there. He goes on to immediately back down from his pressure with this post. + Show Spoiler + Maybe I should have rephrased my post on the suspicions towards you Sciberbia: I was not that much concerned about your absence but just on the amount of seemingly "useless" things within the post. Don't see anything wrong with your elaborations on it now. Here we get the first taste of ShiaoPi's tactic. He pressures someone and then states, "Oh, I wasn't actually pressuring you." It seems like a good way to blend in while also "contributing" as scum. This is just the first instance of his noncommittal aggression. Golden pays no attention to this either, except for an indirect reference in that he will be suspicious of ShiaoPi of Milton flips town. We still have no idea if he even read what Milton wrote. Post 9+10)+ Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On May 24 2012 19:00 O.Golden_ne wrote: woah, Doctor killed. we're really behind now  i'll mull over hegeo's final post before day two, it's really hard to draw links between players so early. but alot of what he has said works out. also Release, i dont think there was much of fiasco at the end of day one. the voting was fairly logical and it didnt seemed too rushed from anyone. people just switched over the the mis-lynch of hegeo. + Show Spoiler + On May 25 2012 12:26 O.Golden_ne wrote: Okay this sucks. 2 team members down. I have been following but wok is super busy so I have to quickly duck in here during my lunch break on my phone. In going to write a large analysis this afternoon so about 5hours from thi post. Im not going to address sciberbias final post yet though I think it has credence. The most heated debate at the moment is between 3 candidates. Release, Morsanis and miltonkram. Here's my read on the events at the moment. Hegeos got smashed, and his final post carries the most weight of anything in this entire thread. Since this time both Morsanis and release have been scrambling to defend themselves and appear least scummy. By the fact that they are both quite defensive I feel that miltonkram is right in saying one of them is most likely scum. However miltonkram by posting this opinion in relationship to his former situation makes me feel like he's using this as a great opportunity to avert attention from himself over to shiaopi. It is my opinion so far that miltonkram is mafia, and one of either Morsanis or release is also. I also think that his repetition about the 50/50 things makes him look very scummy as there is little content for so much taking. I'll quote it in my big post this arvo if it's still relevant. Post 9 is a hegeo reaction post. It's neutral. Post 10 is a summation of his thoughts on current events. He captures the general mood that release and mordanis are in a little hot water, and the rest is mostly WIFOM on Milton. The complete picture...I see the summation of everything he has done, and I certainly do not see a dedicated scum hunter. His only real try was on Milton, and when dissected, it doesn't seem like much of a try at all. What I see is a creator of filler, and someone who is neither hot nor cold, but always lukewarm. Someone who seems unaffected by the ticking clock, counting down to the death of the town. All together it seems very, very scummy. Accountability + Show Spoiler + I add this now. Accountability creates trust. It makes it easier for other townies to read you as green A good townie feels accountable for his own actions, only makes promises he can keep, and makes the most of the time he has to play. Golden does none of this. Lets start here: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 06:14 O.Golden_ne wrote: @Hegeo. I'd love to see your response to Releases accusation. As his is the most tangible accusation to date. Because he's acctually got a vote behind it! Please rebut. I'll be posting more in my lunch break in 5 hours. Five hours comes and goes. Here is his next post: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 17:05 O.Golden_ne wrote: @Release. Sorry, i am here don't stress, it 6:00pm and i finished at 5:00pm l logged on the moment i got home!! It's hard to make time except for after work. I am catching up on all the happenings and will post a more in depth post in a moment. He addresses why he wasn't around to fulfill his promise. A good townie does this. He also deserves some slack for the first occurance. A good townie would also note to themselves here that maybe I should be more careful about when/what I promise to post, considering how busy I am lately. He should be cautious about putting himself in a position to break another promise. He doesn't do this: + Show Spoiler + On May 25 2012 12:26 O.Golden_ne wrote: Okay this sucks. 2 team members down. I have been following but wok is super busy so I have to quickly duck in here during my lunch break on my phone. In going to write a large analysis this afternoon so about 5hours from thi post. Im not going to address sciberbias final post yet though I think it has credence. It's been 7 hours and counting at the time I'm writing this. He could have legit gotten too busy to post, but this is strike two, and it's worth noting. There are other occurances, and I've covered most of them in my first section. He promises to be most active in the evening in his first post. He was on the first evening, but on the eve of the first lynch, he popped in to vote and then dropped off the face of the earth. He says he will consider additional info on Milton before making his decision to vote for him, but then votes without saying why other than trusting his original read. He claims interest in Milton's opinion on ShiaoPi, then has no reaction to it when Milton obliges him. He asks myself and ShiaoPi to restate our cases against each other, then ignores them completely. In Post 5, he admits to needing more info to flesh out his opinions, but then doesn't refine his opinion on really anyone but Milton (and to what effect? his refinement was to cut him some slack, and then he retracted it wordlessly when he voted for him). This is a trend. He does not hold himself accountable for his actions. Conclusions: + Show Spoiler + The portion on scumhunting stands on it's own. He isn't really trying to find scum at all, because he is the scumdog millionaire. The section on accountability does not stand on it's own. It can be explained as bad townie play. Here is the crux of the argument, the thing that links to two together. A townie who is flaky, and is never around when he says he will be, would still make his best effort to find scum with the time he DOES have available. I think I have clearly shown that Golden does not do this. There you have it folks. 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Mordanis: I think you have the right idea going back to the drawing board. Release has also encouraged this, and so do I. I read what you have posted so far, and what I see is you being suspicious of everyone basically (having refreshed just before posting this, I see Release has just said the same). I think this is caused by the front to back thread read. This is causing every player's worst moments to stick in your head and little else. My suggestion is to look at each person individually, via filters. A front to back thread read is useful, but should be secondary to this. SciaoPi: Day 1 has been over for awhile. I've been going over and over your filter. Your final response to me was confusing, in that it stood in stark contrast to everything else you posted. It was crystal clear, well thought out, and humble. It also took some big brass balls to unFoS me when I was still actively pursuing you. This showed self-awareness and also a healthy measure of trust. I said I wanted to continue our interaction, but had a change of heart after mulling over this: On May 24 2012 07:57 ShiaoPi wrote: --snipped I lacked and probably still lack according to some people content but it really is hard to get some content in, if I have to defend myself all the time. I wanted to see what you could contribute with a little space to work with. I see you posted that you've been busy, but you're credibility will suffer the longer you go without utilizing this space. My read on Golden is currently stronger than my read on you, and as such... ##unFoS: ShiaoPi ##FoS: O.Golden_ne Miltonkram: I spelled out my views on Mordanis and Release in my post concerning hegeo's final accusation. The framework you are basing your analysis on seems sound enough. With everything else I've been doing, I haven't gone through Mordanis' filter by itself in a little while. I plan to do this so I can add/comment to your analysis post. | ||
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Milton, your read on Mordanis draws a lot on these emotions. The take home message, as I see it, is that Mordanis used emotional play to distract us from points being made against him. Yes, this is possible, but I ask you, is it more likely than this scenario: Mordanis is a newbie just like the rest of us, and started the game sure that he wanted to do his part, but was unsure on how to go about it. He waffles around a bit, tries to be pro-town and makes nice. When some early flak comes from hegeo, he becomes incredulous, and overreacts to it. He feels genuinely slighted, because he knows he's green, and hegeo's suspicions are misguided. It's like hegeo came up to him and declared that 2+2=5. I know I felt this way the first time I was accused, and it's difficult to stay objective. Put simply, day 1 was a lot of OMGUS towards hegeo. That said, hegeo's defense left a lot to be desired, and really only encouraged the perpetuity of Mordanis' behavior. | ||
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Your defense on scumhunting is that you scumhunt differently than everyone else. That's correct, the difference is that you only care enough about it to form one garbagey case against one player, absent of any outside information. You basically mailed it in, voted (citing only your own weak input), and then left. You don't care because you are scum, and know who the scum are. You don't care to stick around for the lynch results, because you knew it was a win for you either way we went (milton/hegeo). Your defense on your accountability is: yes I haven't been accountable, but what if you and Milton are scum and WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM. Also, look at this new lurker we have! Isn't he terrible? I am thoroughly, 100% convinced. ##Vote: O.Golden_ne | ||
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My ideal situation is that we lynch golden today, and he's the godfather. Then it'd be cool if any blues we have left focus on skware, by either vig shooting him or DT checking him. Either way, he will be largely dealt with. If golden is not the godfather, but some other mafia role, then its more complicated. In this situation I would still consider lynching skware. You know how life goes with best laid plans however. Basically, yes I wouldn't mind killing him tomorrow on the strength of what we know about him, but I think we are better off with Golden today | ||
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On giving Golden the benefit of the doubt..I wasn't 100% sure on him when I posted my case. He had the benefit of the doubt with me until he posted his defense. I was ready to read what he had to say to defend himself, consider it objectively, and compare it to my read. To me though, his defense was just so far off the mark. Maybe I'm not being lenient enough, but I dont think so this time. I understand that you want to see more from him, and that's fine. So do I. Everyone will have to decide for themselves. | ||
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On May 25 2012 08:32 VisceraEyes wrote: Day 2 ![[image loading]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-OV5vg9LU2mE/TthjCjFlUII/AAAAAAAACmI/XFgWdXHbjoo/s1600/crime_scene_mgmt1_2405.gif) Twas the night before Friday and all through the house, not a creature was stirring…except for the two scummy bastards killing people. After a quick glance, you realize one of your member has indeed not joined you. sciberbia the Vanilla Townie has been…taken care of. You have ~48 hours from this post to decide who you wish to destroy next. This post signaled the end of night 1 and the start of day 2. Posted on may 25th 08:32 KST. it is now may 27th 08:26 KST. The lynch is definitely right now. | ||
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I take responsibility for driving this, but I really thought we had something here. | ||
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I think it's funny how easy it was to scumread after I was out of the game. Without any pressure to post/read I guessed Milton/Mordanis, while in-game I was defending both of them. GG to all, and nice job by mafia for keeping us fooled. | ||
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My reading of your big post just prior to death was very much affected because I was trying to consider the argument as a package deal. It became difficult to separate Mordanis from Release...I mistakenly cleared Mordanis because I was so sure Release was town. You made some good points about Mordanis; coupled with what he posted just before and after your death, it was definitely enough to pursue. The biggest moment for me was this: On May 24 2012 08:39 Mordanis wrote: I only read a little bit..... And I just explained why. Anyways I'm off to work. Here's hoping for some red!! Not sure how I let myself forget this. The way you doggedly pursued the case even when your death was assured (only a townie would do this) made Mordanis 'hope for red' extremely suspect. I think it was because sciberbia said that it was weird I was so sure you were town at that point, but I really should have trusted my logic and stayed on the trail you blazed. | ||
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That aside, I'm amazed at how small the margin of error was in this game. That's part of the territory for mini set-ups though I suppose. Our day 1 medic mislynch meant we HAD to get day 2 right, otherwise we end up at day 3 with 3 townies (1 inactive) and 2 scum. This is what happened obviously...I chuckle when I think that Milton and Mordanis could have scum-claimed on day 3 and still wouldn't have been lynched. | ||
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