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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
First of all we should definetly go for a lynch, no-lynch is (at least in my opinion) utter nonsense. Regarding Lurkers, I believe that they should be put under suspicion especially in a 9 player setup. I was in the same game as mufaa and lurking screwed us over pretty badly in a 13 player game. I must say I really like release's approach until now, we won't get anything worthwhile from just being nice to each other. Pressuring is a great way to get some more information and should be utilizied. The only slightly suspicious thing until now was sciberbia's long post and his absence since then, but until he responds there is nothing to make of it. | ||
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ShiaoPi
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I was not that much concerned about your absence but just on the amount of seemingly "useless" things within the post. Don't see anything wrong with your elaborations on it now. | ||
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ShiaoPi
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On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote: ---snipped--- ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating. If you reread my first post on sciberbia I would have assumed that it was easily visible that I had a bit of concern regarding him but not really a suspicion. Regarding my small filter, yes I did not post much until now, but how come that you with the exact same amount of posts (since the daypost) can claim that my filter is small. This strikes me as odd. Why complain about my filter if yours is not that much as well? | ||
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ShiaoPi
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Maybe I am also biased as he was one of the lurking scum in Newbie Mafia XIII, but he really reminds me of his play in the last game right now... | ||
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ShiaoPi
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ShiaoPi
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Since it is Day1 pretty much everyone's postcount is relatively low (although Mufaa really stands out here), your second argument on piling suspicion on you, while being wishy washy about it seems like a typical day 1 accusation/FOS to me. There simply is not enough material for solid cases against others. I believe solid ones will only appear well into the 2nd half of day 1 when there is more information. Not sticking someone's neck out is in my opinion understandable. Although it may be a scum trait it could also be a blue role. In terms of getting people's attention, nobody besides you, has really done something to get everyone on it. So in regards to that everyone would be suspicious. All in all I think that your case is just not "solid" enough without further information. Let's just wait for Milton's response, as that is something that will give us more info. | ||
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ShiaoPi
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So you see me as scummy/suspicious? Let's take a look at your reasoning: I'll follow the chronological order of your post. So first off you scrutinize my first post and come to the conclusion that I am just repeating stuff, which has been said by others already. I actually see nothing wrong in joining a discussion that has already started. To me it seemed as they were asking for everyone's opinion, so I gave my opinion. If stating somebody's stance on something is scummy, well cannot help you then. In your 2nd snippet you take a closer look on my suspicions of Mufaa. I really do not think an issue of semantics is scummy. I also do not phrase it as "What others said" I posted "since we all agree..." If you really want to go into semantics please take note that I am using the plural with myself included, so it is just another way of saying since I and others agree on...." Going on to the 3rd excerpt: You state the following: + Show Spoiler + This post is practically without any new content but a defense. You could have said "I had no time/Wanted to see how things go", whatever... But you chose to say "You're not better than me". This seems like only searching for an excuse once other people target you. I was being put under suspicion so I defended myself, sounds pretty reasonable? You can interpret text in many ways, if we assume that I said "had no time/wanted to see how things go", you can also claim that it looks scummy, it really is a matter of interpretation. I see nothing wrong with my defense, firstly I clarified my stance on sciberbia, then I point out a flaw in his 2nd argument. Next snippet is me repsonding to sciberbia regarding my stance on him and as you take it out of context it looks useless. I believe it to have served it's purpose of further clarifying my opinion. Your suspicions regarding the time I came online and the time I posted "something original" are not understandable to me. I am simply not playing as aggressive as Release is and therefore I naturally lack "original" content, as you already pointed out my playstyle might seem as you phrased it: "maybe there is something, maybe not, who knows... there is not enough information... let's wait" Seems to me like a not too shabby way to play on Day 1. Not much yet you can base reads off and still quite some time to the deadline, whose approach always brings out the more mattering posts (at least in my opinion). I do not see it contradicting with the usage of pressure to gain information, which you seem to see. I pressured sciberbia very lightly, before now focusing on Mufaa, as he strikes me as most scummiest right now. | ||
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ShiaoPi
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I am going for hegeo's throat? Where? I merely defended myself. I am still intent on getting something out off Mufaa for now, as his lurkiness is just intolerable. | ||
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ShiaoPi
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What stands out from his posts is the analytical part. It seems to be lacking solidity to make the longer posts which he does not really support (see: + Show Spoiler + I kind of agree on the fact that activity creates information, but walls of text (I take it you exaggerated to make your point) don't help automatically. But this was already said earlier, so I wont elaborate on that. Basing from this statement he must himself believe to have solid cases going with his "wall of texts", but in my opinion they are not solid at all. | ||
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ShiaoPi
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On May 23 2012 06:40 s0Lstice wrote: ---snipped---- ShiaoPi, hegeo has made a case against you and I want to add to it. I called you out, and you said this: Discrediting your accuser instead of addressing the accusation smacks of fear. What's with the knee-jerk? You could have easily just said something like 'my small filter will be a short lived problem as I plan to contribute more soon.' What's more, I even put the spotlight on the two of us after our exchange, and before leaving the thread for a few hours: ...and your contributions since then are what? Mainly defense, and a half-baked (see:one game) meta argument on Mufaa, where you yourself admit that you may be biased. Regarding my "knee-jerk": I'll just quote my answer to hegeo: + Show Spoiler + I was being put under suspicion so I defended myself, sounds pretty reasonable? You can interpret text in many ways, if we assume that I said "had no time/wanted to see how things go", you can also claim that it looks scummy, it really is a matter of interpretation. I see nothing wrong with my defense, firstly I clarified my stance on sciberbia, then I point out a flaw in his 2nd argument. I believe it to be a good defense. It is Day 1, nobody is confirmed town until he flips, so why should I not throw the ball at you for a bit, while I answered your main question, which was "how come that you drop your suspicions on sciberba that easily?" That it came over slightly discrediting against you is part of it. As it seemed like you checked the filters of everyone in terms of length. I see no logic behind building a case on a small filter size, when first of your own filter is not that big and secondly there are people with even smaller filters (see Mufaa). Contributionwise I admit that there was not much from me yet. I gave my opinion on the cases others have posted and pointed out that we have a hardcore-lurker (which is more than just a "half-baked metacomment") right now. Really contributing as in lots of activity and some cases, are Release, sciberbia, hegeo and Mordanis. That makes 3 other people besides yourself, whose list of contributions is just as "meager" as mine and still you do not tunnel them. Why? Because of my small filter? But what about Mufaa's? Your argument of small filter = scum/should be pressured seems to go haywire with your case against me, so I naturally suspect you. | ||
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ShiaoPi
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If you are not buying my explaination I cannot help you. To me your main argument seemed to be me dropping my suspicions on scriberbia, I answered it and went on to attack you, simply because taking filter size as an argument in beforementioned circumstances seems like a feeble attempt to give a random accusation/suspicion more weight. Therefore you are suspicious in my opinion. On another note you have not answered my other question, regarding you tunneling me all the time when your argumentation which you base it on (contribution, filter size) also fits others. Let's take a look at your post: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 00:15 s0Lstice wrote: We lynch day 1, period. Debating about whether or not to lynch only happens if we have no reads to go off of, which to me makes the debate a non-factor.. We've heard from everyone now I believe, solid reads will come with a little time. Can we stop discussion about policy now please? It creates an environment where scum can comfortably post and be 'CREDIT TO TEAM.' Scumhunting must begin now. I'm looking first to sciberbia. I'm not sure if Release reads you as green, but I currently do. More fluff and I'll change my mind though. Your stated purpose was to generate discussion...mission accomplished. I'll be looking for you to make something out of it. ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating. Miltonkram confuses me. You say you don't want people to share town reads because it's giving information to the mafia. What? Scum know who is town and who is not. Scumhunting is ALL ABOUT posting your reads on people. They are accused, and must defend. You smell fishy to me Milton. ##FOS: Miltonkram I am one of the several people you call out. As you share them in the thread I would believe it safe to assume that these were (or maybe still are) your main suspects. The one thing that you combined with calling me out was filter size and my opinion on sciberbia. After I explained my stance on sciberbia all you had to work with was filtersize and my reaction. My reaction was explaining my opinion on sciberbia and an attack on you. You continue to ignore my explaination and just go on about my attack on you. Conclusively, you seem to base your pressure on me by randomness of grabbing the name of the first person who did not post much until then and could be an easy way to seemingly contribute. I quote you now: + Show Spoiler + Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating. Keep that in mind as I quote your latest post: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 07:59 s0Lstice wrote: ShiaoPi Notice that all I've done is apply pressure. I've never claimed that a small filter is a scum guarantee. Being relatively quiet is plenty of reason to pressure you, just as it is plenty of reason to pressure me. You've responded with gusto, and that's good for everybody, as we have more to go on. I still don't buy your explanation for why you didn't address my accusation. The fact remains that you attacked instead of explained. You wanting to throw the ball my way is fine, but doing so in lieu of a defense to pretty weak pressure (based on filter size, which I agree with you is weak) is scummy. As such I still suspect you. You wonder why I don't focus on him (Mufaa). Everybody is suspicious of him, me saying so serves no purpose. We know already his name will probably come up for lynch tomorrow because lurkers are at best useless and at worst dangerous. This raises the following question: Why do you call out somebody, if you are not convinced by your own argumentation? To me it seems like you are trying to appear town as you try to build a case on somebody. ##FOS: s0lstice | ||
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On May 23 2012 08:16 Miltonkram wrote: I already had suspicions of ShiaoPi, but his latest "defense" just makes him feel more scummy in my eyes. -snipped- At this point ShiaoPi seems like he is just treading water. I think he's either bad town or panicking mafia. Please note the sections that I have bolded in his quote. He never addresses the fact that he's being attacked because his posts lack content. He keeps trying to focus attention on other players as a means of defending himself, rather than actually defending himself with content. If you do quote parts of my defense please make sure that you quote the entire picture. Take a look at my post in response to hegeo: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote: -snipped- Your suspicions regarding the time I came online and the time I posted "something original" are not understandable to me. I am simply not playing as aggressive as Release is and therefore I naturally lack "original" content, as you already pointed out my playstyle might seem as you phrased it: "maybe there is something, maybe not, who knows... there is not enough information... let's wait" Seems to me like a not too shabby way to play on Day 1. Not much yet you can base reads off and still quite some time to the deadline, whose approach always brings out the more mattering posts (at least in my opinion). I do not see it contradicting with the usage of pressure to gain information, which you seem to see. I pressured sciberbia very lightly, before now focusing on Mufaa, as he strikes me as most scummiest right now. I bolded my explainations regarding content etc. Furthermore I would have assumed that it is content that I am explaining why and how I posted the things, so please point out my defense, which "lacks content". Furthermore I focused my defense on the "knee-jerk" as most people seem to be much more concerned with that than what you perceive as lack of content. I am also calling out people in my posts since that is in fact content. Maybe it is not as nicely formatted and phrased as it would be if I did not have to permanently defend myself, but do take your time to read my posts thoroughly. There is content. On May 23 2012 08:16 Miltonkram wrote: Then he makes a list of active players, in order to make himself look like he's accomplishing something. How much does that list actually accomplish? That "list" was not supposed to accomplish something. Take a look at it in the context I have put it into. It simply serves as a way to reveal the contradiction that I have already pointed out in solstice's posts. I have not made that list with the caption: HERE IS MY CONTRIBUTION! If you want to point out weird spots in my posts make sure you do it within their context and not just out of the blue. On May 23 2012 08:16 Miltonkram wrote: If you look over his filter, how many people has he actually put real pressure on? He put some very weak pressure on hegeo, only after Mordanis pressured him first. He's been gunning for Mufaa, a very easy player to gun for since he's lurking like crazy. Again I have already given my reasoning on day 1 play reread my filter and you should be able to see it. I am currently gunning for Mufaa and s0lstice. Mufaa for hardcorelurking and bad experience in newbie mafia XIII, while I have elaborated on s0lstice in my post before. On May 23 2012 08:16 Miltonkram wrote: @ s0Lstice- Thank you for clearing up why you were suspicious of me. I'm still not sure you're town, but at the very least that clears up some of my suspicions. For now I'm lessening my focus on you and shifting it to ShiaoPi. ##unFOS: s0Lstice ##FOS: ShiaoPi Hopefully that should have been enough to convince you. I am going to bed now, so don't fret over my sudden lack of activity. | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5956 Posts
Let's get some of my thoughts out: First of regarding my suspcions on s0lstice: In my opinion he is constantly trying to overemphasize my attack on him instead of clearing the accusation. If you go to that particular post, I do in fact answer his main argument, which was concerning my stance on sciberbia, then I went on to attack him. Reading through his response I came to the conclusion that either he can not understand my point of view or does not want to. Both of these attributes are not really helpful to us. Either it's bad townie play or it is scummy play to get a bandwagon starting on me. For now I will stop responding to you, s0lstice since our quarrel has degenerated to something close to OMGUS and does not give us any more information, you refuse to budge from your stance I refuse to move from mine. As Golden wants a clearer list on my suspicions on him here goes: -His first post without fluff is sharing a list of reads. There is nothing wrong with that but I feel that his seemingly random choice to call me out appears as an attempt to seemingly contribute without doing much. -I agree with him that my play until now has not been flawless, but him increasing the pressure without more "evidence" strikes me as suspicious. -His argumentation against me started with lack of content and filter size. I pointed out the flaws in it and just get tunneled harder. If you go through his filter you will see that he lacks content as well (besides tunneling me). This is a contradiction of his own logic --> fishy. -He continually pressures me without reacting to parts of my counter-pressure on him. Hopefully that helps others as well. Concerning Milton: Golden brings up some good points on him and Milton has promised for a while now to deliver something more in detail regarding his stance on me. To me him switching his FOS appeared as bandwagoning on someone already under pressure, while voting for Mufaa. This is a move I do not understand. If he wants to increase the pressure on me he should just vote me instead of going after our well known lurker, who has already been called out multiple times. Notable is alos that he ignored my responses to his FOS on me. Seems like a lot of inconsistent play, adding weight on to Golden's post. The above two paragraphs should be enough to clarify my opinions on Milton and solstice. Regarding the case on hegeo: I'll probably just repeat myself but nothing of his posts screams scum to me. It could very well be bad townie play. In addition to my critique on him earlier I also want to point out that his vote on Mufaa is outright not helpful. Several people have already called him out and by his lack of responses we can dedcut that he will either get modkilled come the nightpost or we will lynch him day 2. No reason to vote him off, if there are other more informative targets around. Still I won't vote for him now, because I believe it to be possible that we got a case of bad townie. If push comes to shove and we lack a vote on him and would have a no-lynch he will have my vote, as I already stated that in my opinion no-lynches are utterly stupid for town. I will probably wait with my vote until I see more from Milton/solstice. Something more from hegeo would not be wrong either. Lastly regarding Mufaa: I already said, lynch him tomorrow if he is still not modkilled by then. | ||
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ShiaoPi
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On May 24 2012 02:54 Miltonkram wrote: -snipped- My top scumread is still ShiaoPi. Essentially, he plays scum exactly how I would. His entire D1 posts have been pretty wishy-washy and noncommittal, allowing him freedom later in the game because he hasn't actually tied himself strongly to the information or accusations in any of his posts. With that in mind let's look at his first post. Is there any reason why you have conveniently ignored my posts about my playstyle? I explained the reasons of it here: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote: I am simply not playing as aggressive as Release is and therefore I naturally lack "original" content, as you already pointed out my playstyle might seem as you phrased it: Seems to me like a not too shabby way to play on Day 1. Not much yet you can base reads off and still quite some time to the deadline, whose approach always brings out the more mattering posts (at least in my opinion). I elaborated further on it here: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 07:12 ShiaoPi wrote: It is Day 1, nobody is confirmed town until he flips, so why should I not throw the ball at you for a bit, while I answered your main question, which was "how come that you drop your suspicions on sciberba that easily?" That it came over slightly discrediting against you is part of it. I guess you just accidentally left those out of your analysis. But nevermind let's carry on. On May 24 2012 02:54 Miltonkram wrote: Here's what he does, he compliments the most active player early on (Release) and talks about playstyle. Then he adds some weak suspicions toward sciberbia. Suspicion that he can easily back down from, and that certainly isn't breaking any new ground. Wait, doesn't this sound a lot like another early post? + Show Spoiler + Release- I like the way you're starting out this game. If we are going to catch scum we need to be aggressive about it. Don't worry too much about the tone of your posts. sciberbia's post does seem a bit suspicious. He repeats his ideas several times in different ways to make it look like he's putting out more info than he actually is. It seems quite scummy to me. Mordanis- Don't get too offended by aggressive behavior. If mafia doesn't actually think that a little pressure will lead to a lynch, then why should they answer any questions at all? We need to make sure that people are held accountable to what they say. sciberbia- What do you have to say about the accusations pointed at you? There's quite a bit of fluffy information in your post. Let's try to keep the conversation more focused on who might be scum, everything else is secondary. That's right, his entire first post is a rehash of one of my first posts. A post I made before him. If my first post wasn't breaking any new ground, his certainly wasn't. It seems a good way to blend in with the crowd without sticking his neck out there. If you claim that I was just repeating your words, where are my thoughts on Mordanis in that post? I can't find them, furthermore have stated my reasoning behind my first post already, feel free to reread:+ Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote: So first off you scrutinize my first post and come to the conclusion that I am just repeating stuff, which has been said by others already. I actually see nothing wrong in joining a discussion that has already started. To me it seemed as they were asking for everyone's opinion, so I gave my opinion. If stating somebody's stance on something is scummy, well cannot help you then. What a surprise, you seem to have overread my stance on the first post. If it does not convince you, can't help you I made my point on it clear enough. On May 24 2012 02:54 Miltonkram wrote: He goes on to immediately back down from his pressure with this post. + Show Spoiler + Maybe I should have rephrased my post on the suspicions towards you Sciberbia: I was not that much concerned about your absence but just on the amount of seemingly "useless" things within the post. Don't see anything wrong with your elaborations on it now. Here we get the first taste of ShiaoPi's tactic. He pressures someone and then states, "Oh, I wasn't actually pressuring you." It seems like a good way to blend in while also "contributing" as scum. This is just the first instance of his noncommittal aggression.[/quote] Can you show me other instances of so called noncomittal aggression? First of all reread my posts towards sciberbia, I used the words, I never put any serious pressure on him. I just acknowledged the fact that there was a slight wonderment, but I have not acted upon it. Just for the record again, I am not really comittal on day 1 for reasons above. On May 24 2012 02:54 Miltonkram wrote: Let's look at his suspicions of hegeo. + Show Spoiler + I am unsure what to make of hegeo. The one thing which seems suspicious to me is his timing after being called out, the other stuff could easily be bad townie or careful day 1 play. Seeing that I am getting flak for my style it is easy to see why he gets thoroughly investigated now. What stands out from his posts is the analytical part. It seems to be lacking solidity to make the longer posts which he does not really support (see: + Show Spoiler +) Basing from this statement he must himself believe to have solid cases going with his "wall of texts", but in my opinion they are not solid at all. Once again this is "suspicion" that he doesn't actually have to commit to, and he hopes he won't be held accountable for. How is that suspicion to you? The general vibe of the post is a more defensive one regarding hegeo. I have stated more than once already that I believe him to be a bad townie, I point out the flaw in his play, but I do not throw a FOS in his direction, nor do I pressure him directly. If you put that post back into the context, it was just me answering to the question of sciberbia. Please do not extract things out of context to make them seem "evidence". I was asked on my opinion therefore I answered. I do not see anything wrong with that. On May 24 2012 02:54 Miltonkram wrote: I would ask you all this, who would be more damaging as scum? The actions I've taken in the game have all been actions that I've committed to. (barring the mistake I made with s0Lstice, but that was just me being dumb.) You can actually tie me to what I've written and hold me accountable later in the game, whereas ShiaoPi seems to have some sort of "escape clause" in almost every single one of his posts. The only thing he's been adamant about has been his FOS of s0Lstice, and that pressure has a built in escape to it, seeing as he can excuse himself by saying that s0Lstice had pressured him first. Anyway, what are people's thoughts on this? Seeing as I'll be away for an hour or two I'm going to go ahead and vote. ##unVote: Mufaa ##Vote: ShiaoPi Conclusivly I have the feeling that you simply ignored my posts which did not fit into your logic. If you take a look at this post of mine: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 09:06 ShiaoPi wrote: If you do quote parts of my defense please make sure that you quote the entire picture. Take a look at my post in response to hegeo: + Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 05:25 ShiaoPi wrote: -snipped- Your suspicions regarding the time I came online and the time I posted "something original" are not understandable to me. I am simply not playing as aggressive as Release is and therefore I naturally lack "original" content, as you already pointed out my playstyle might seem as you phrased it: "maybe there is something, maybe not, who knows... there is not enough information... let's wait" Seems to me like a not too shabby way to play on Day 1. Not much yet you can base reads off and still quite some time to the deadline, whose approach always brings out the more mattering posts (at least in my opinion). I do not see it contradicting with the usage of pressure to gain information, which you seem to see. I pressured sciberbia very lightly, before now focusing on Mufaa, as he strikes me as most scummiest right now. I bolded my explainations regarding content etc. Furthermore I would have assumed that it is content that I am explaining why and how I posted the things, so please point out my defense, which "lacks content". Furthermore I focused my defense on the "knee-jerk" as most people seem to be much more concerned with that than what you perceive as lack of content. I am also calling out people in my posts since that is in fact content. Maybe it is not as nicely formatted and phrased as it would be if I did not have to permanently defend myself, but do take your time to read my posts thoroughly. There is content. That "list" was not supposed to accomplish something. Take a look at it in the context I have put it into. It simply serves as a way to reveal the contradiction that I have already pointed out in solstice's posts. I have not made that list with the caption: HERE IS MY CONTRIBUTION! If you want to point out weird spots in my posts make sure you do it within their context and not just out of the blue. Again I have already given my reasoning on day 1 play reread my filter and you should be able to see it. I am currently gunning for Mufaa and s0lstice. Mufaa for hardcorelurking and bad experience in newbie mafia XIII, while I have elaborated on s0lstice in my post before. Hopefully that should have been enough to convince you. I am going to bed now, so don't fret over my sudden lack of activity. I had already answered to you yesterday, but weirdly enough it had little to no influence on your renewed case against me. I really cannot understand that you take almost 7 hours for your case today but still managed to miss all my later posts in which I explained my actions in detail. It smells of scumwagoning. ##Vote: Miltonkram | ||
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ShiaoPi
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I was asking for the reasons why you still see me as scummy. I believe to have answered all your proddings to some satisfaction. You acknowledged my stance on sciberbia, then went on to ask about me attacking rather than defending. I answered that question as well. You even said it yourself: My filter is full of my feelings on ShiaoPi for others to consider for themselves, and our recent exchanges have reinforced my initial suspicions, but nothing really new has been added. I simply do not understand the continued pressure besides it being a case of OMGUS (I am not entirely innocent of that either) | ||
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On May 24 2012 06:32 O.Golden_ne wrote: thank god i didn't miss the deadline. I went to sleep and forgot to vote. I'm going to stand by my earlier posts about miltonkram. but before i vote i want to say that i will change to Hegeo in the case that we dont get enough votes for a lynch, i like Mordanis and Releases argument on him. In the case the miltonkram flips town, i'm going seriously question ShiaoPi however. @Hegeo can you please swap your vote of Mufaa, he is most likely modkilled. ##Vote: Miltonkram Golden, this post of you is highly confusing to me. You point out that you stand by your posts about miltonkram and your suspicions therefore. But then you actually consider swapping votes on hegeo, if a no-lynch is looming. Can you explain your logic behind that? With your vote we are at 4 votes on Milton, which makes a switch to hegeo to ensure a lynch highly unlikely. With your vote the only missing ones are solstice and mufaa. As I doubt that mufaa will show up for the deadline it is much more likely that solstice will go with the milton vote to ensure a lynch as he has stated. The other confusing thing about it is your conclusion that if milton flips town I am to be pointed at. Can you enlighten me on that thought process? I did pressure him but only after he started pressuring me and as response to his poorly written cases. | ||
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I believe I went after solstice first after getting pressured, as he was the one pressuring me. so how come that you think he had nothing to do with the accusations? | ||
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In the 2nd one you quote my defense against hegeo's case on me. There is nothing similar in his suspicion of solstice and my defense, the only thing, which could qualify in that way was me calling out Mufaa yet again (I already did earlier and therefore just took it as an example in the context in my post.) Compare that to Milton: First of he claims to have a "case with merit", which is just as weak as any other he has posted thus far. He also drops it really quick for something with "merit". The 3rd one is part of my case against solstice. I went after him since he called me out with weak reasoning, I would have assumed that the process from pressure to FOS was pretty transparent and well-thought in comparison to his "case" against solstice. Just as another reminder, he actually dropped his pressure on solstice, while I am still more or less slugging it out with him. | ||
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In regards to my answer towards your question on the filter. I must admit that I simply did not pay it that much heed. I see the accusation as split in 2 parts, the sciberbia part and the filterpart. My thoughtprocess on that is: okay, he calls me out for a switch in opinion and a small filter. I just checked your filter to get more information into my reply and I see, wow his filter is just as small. why is he calling me out on that? So I go on to just clarify my opinion and call you out. This seems to you as scummy as you see it as unrelated issue, I saw it as part of your argumentation and therefore defended according to it. Defending in this case meant deflecting it by calling the validity of the argument into question I admit it would have probably been better to just lay open my gameplan then, but I was reluctant to as I felt that there was no need for it. From your point of view it was just me bringing in more other things to deflect from myself. From my point of view it was simply a matter of defusing an argument that was annoying to me. I lacked and probably still lack according to some people content but it really is hard to get some content in, if I have to defend myself all the time. Even if I bring new content by bringing up other people it is written off as poiting in other directions in hopes of going scot-free. If you keep that dilemma in mind hopefully my posts make more sense to you. I tried bringing in more content and it gets written off so I just focus back on defending as I cannot contribute if I am lynched. Regarding playstlye, I did in the end cite it as it seemed necessary defensewise. I said it can be read as scummy, so I just put trust into your reading comprehension to read it the way it was meant to be. Conclusively with that well-structured post I now got a good idea of your suspicions and hopefully answered some questions for you. On another note that post also convinced me that there is logic and sense behind your accusation, since my play has been admittedly not the best. ##unFOS: s0lstice If you got more questions keep coming. | ||
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On May 24 2012 07:39 Miltonkram wrote: ShiaoPi, I did not deliberately disregard your later posts. However, real life has gotten in the way of me posting more content and my follow up analysis of your later posts was left undone. Suffice to say, I think what you call play style is actually your built in excuse for your scummy behavior. I think the healthy town atmosphere has forced you to be more active than you originally planned, and only after you were pressured by s0Lstice and myself did you begin to post decent, but not good, content. If I may sum up your play style for the sake of time: -Lurk until there is pressure on you -Respond to pressure with mostly defensive statements -When that doesn't work, begin to put counter-pressure on your attacker -Bandwagon on me once you see that I'm a prime lynch I'd post more direct analysis, but once again, time is running short. Everyone, I hope you can figure out why this is scummy activity in my eyes. If I get lynched today, I hope you keep this in mind. The pressure seems to be off ShiaoPi right now, so unless I can miraculously convince you all to vote for him I guess I'll have to switch my targets. If I may share my point of view on your points: -start laid back in Day 1 as it is after all Day 1 with all its implications -defend yourself against pressure (this is actually a no-brainer, which player does not?) -Look at ways to put in content by analyzing your attacker's play and pointing out aspects I find suspicious -Pick apart your weak case against me and make conclusions from it. | ||
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Milton: Me Hegeo: Release, Mordanis, sciberbia, solstice, milton Mufaa: hegeo Not-voting: Golden, Mufaa I do admit Hegeo's absence is highly suspicious although it may be timezonerelated it is 1:00AM right now in CEST. But he had plenty of time beforehand. | ||
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Golden voted on Milton as well, so its as sciberbia said | ||
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First of I am still unsure if we are going after scum or bad townie, even if his absence is letting me trend toward scum. Secondly it has already been well stated that we do not want a no-lynch, looking at the votecount right now we get a lynch on hegeo. Anyone jumping off that train so close to the deadline is pretty much a confirmed scum, trying to sabotage town or in an last ditch effort to save his scumbuddy hegeo. There is probably a lot of WIFOM in that statement, but I actually think it makes sense. If anyone does switch he practically begs to be lynched day 2... | ||
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##unvote: Miltonkram ##vote: hegeo Just for the record, I am not sure about that lynch and to me Milton seems more scummy. | ||
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Sadly it is too late to get some discussion on that post before lynch. Mordanis your timing is incredibly scary. Especially just that single remark in the entire post stuck you as most important to respond to? Either you are a really fast reader or we just had a knee-jerk from you. Anyway, really waiting for the flip now... | ||
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Mordanis and Release you should better prepare a damn good defense now | ||
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We just lost sciberbia so we probably should take a closer look on his filter: It mainly consists of pressure against Milton and some rebuttals with Mordanis and to a lesser extent release. Just before getting shot he also has a slight suspicion of solstice. What does mafia stand to gain from eliminating him? -Silencing a good and contributing townie, who was pretty much a high townread (at least in my opinion) -Removing Pressure off his targets -Making people suspicious of his targets Looking at it only the first point is a given the rest is probably close to WIFOM, but something to keep in mind following the discussion. Regarding our choice of lynch for day we now have as reasonable candidates Release/Mordanis/Milton and myself (I guess). I'll share my thoughts on the whole Release/Mordanis issue later, just wanted to say that we should not forget sciberbias contributions even though he got shot (maybe it should be even closer scrutinized because he was shot) | ||
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In order to look at the Release/Mordanis issue I chose to start reading through the filters again, especially their defense against hegeo's last post. I assume that everyone still has hegeo's case in mind while reading this. Reading through Release's filter, I believe everyone sees the aggressive stance he has since the beginning of the game. Nothing wrong with that initially. He is the first to actually cast a vote as a response to some soft pressure of hegeo. This seems a bit of like an OMGUS move especially considering that he pushes one of hegeo's arguments away as "blatant lies" (+ Show Spoiler + On May 23 2012 04:45 Release wrote: Response to a) my point was that contributing useless information is worse than having no contribution at all. My example was Sciberia's asking the same question twice, which has since, been given some clarification. b) Lynching a lurker is not "good riddance". I don't see why a townie should feel that way. Lynching a lurker (if there are more than one) is random to a townie, but clear to the mafia. The mafia will obviously choose the lurker whom is a townie, therefore causing us to mislynch. Advocating a lurker lynch instead of focusing on those who are suspicious is a Mafia's way of thinking. In fact, you don't even list some alternative, despite it not being a best case scenario. c)my answer was this: "My point is that Townies can make mistakes, but townies don't make slips. Mafia make can make mistakes; usually their mistake is to make a slip. I want to make that very clear. We shouldn't end up lynching for a mistake. We should lynch someone who makes a slip." From Newbie II game + Show Spoiler + Probulous got a AKCT lynched. That was a mistake. He was clearly contributing so even though he made a mistake, he shouldn't get lynched. (he didn't) Sheth however, does slip in trying to save his scumbuddy and got lynched for that. this was in support of the above point i made. Your c) and reasoning behind are Blatant Lies; you intentionally leave out my actual point to make it seem like i am posting filler. If i didn't know better, you know that i am town, and see that i am dangerous to your scum motives. You are targeting me with a weak case based on incomplete evidence. In regard to the FOS before unFOS, i did it to show that i was putting both of them under suspicion. There are 3 mafia. I only had 2. Are you seriously trying to convince to to avoid the larger picture and completely ignore anyone (other than the person who i am targeting at the moment) who might be Mafia? The FOS's got people talking. Talking is good for the town. Again, this is an example of where you completely ignore the larger picture. "overly motivated try to get information." All townies want information. After all, we don't know much. You however, seem perfectly content to let this day slip by without extracting a lot of information from it (presumably because you already have the information because you are scum). I see no other option as of yet (or until you reply) but to: ##Vote: Hegeo So for now Release seems to me like a case of zealous townie, who sadly went after the wrong target. On Topic of Mordanis: In his filter his posts against hegeo often included the accusation of "passive-aggressiveness". I still have no clue what he means with it and I certainly do not see it in hegeo's posting. Seems like a case of adding up arguments when he ran out of things with solid backing to point out. Concluding from that you could say he found somebody easy to attack to maybe get a mislynch happen. Adding weight to that train of thought is his post in which he calmly claims to ignore hegeo. This is stupid for the simple reason that town wants to get information via pressuring or lynching. If you ignore your tunneltarget, how can you gather information from it? For that the following quote is also useful: + Show Spoiler + And finally, I think that Release has pretty much posted a refutation of your rebuttal. Once he has begun actively pushing the case against hegeo, he pretty much ignored his responses and found a way to even not need to answer hegeo at all. The strongest point against him is the ridiculous "knee-jerk" we got from him right after hegeo's post: + Show Spoiler + On May 24 2012 08:29 Mordanis wrote: "Also, no interaction between these two in the thread" + Show Spoiler + On May 22 2012 15:08 Mordanis wrote: First off, let me say that I'm glad for your early FOS. I was trying to think of a way to get the ball rolling and I just couldn't figure out how to do it. Let me try to clear up any confusion now though ^^ The reason I mentioned the last game I played is because it was the only game I've ever played before. To me it seems that referencing my only experience is quite logical. If it doesn't seem logical, I apologize! My reference was only a way for me to explain what I thought and why. The reason that I said that I'm for a lynch today is this: I think that in 99% of cases, a D1 no-lynch only ends badly for the town. There's no real information that is gained, All we really find out is that the player who dies during the night was town. If a vigi shoots during the same night, it really doesn't give us much info either (all we know is who died, and probably only a slightly over 1/4 chance of hitting mafia). However, if we do lynch, then we pressure the mafia to either defend their scumbuddy or let one of their own die. It puts pressure on the mafia, and we have a chance to get out to an early lead. Also, I look at it in a risk/reward way. If we lynch D1, our risks are (1: mislynch). That's basically it. That would put us in a 5vs2 against the mafia. Our reward however, would be (1: information, 2: potential scumlynch). We would have solid input from everyone, from which we could at least begin to unravel who the mafia is, who the town are, and who the lurkers are. On the other hand, if we start without a lynch, we have to stat virtually from the beginning, only we know concretely one person who is (read was) town. As to your concern, I do think that we got lucky in my last game. We lynched one of the lurkers who seemed only somewhat scummy, and he flipped scum. This time, hopefully, we will have begun the hunt for scum early enough that we will have a much better target than last time. My hope is that we will have a good candidate to lynch. If however, we get sidetracked and have no solid reads, I prefer a lynch of the strongest scumread who is also a lurker. That way, if we are wrong, we won't lose a critical part of the team. If only a couple of people are active today and we lynch one, that's sending a clear message that we'll lynch the people who are participating actively. I think its pretty obvious to see where that path leads. That being said, there is not nearly enough activity yet for me to decide whom I would support lynching. As to the questions Sciberia asked: I'd really support a lynch for anyone that could get a majority of the votes. In some weird situation where everyone decided to lynch the best, most logical player, I'd try to get a no-vote. In reality though, I trust my fellow townies to be rational enough to lynch someone who is fairly likely to be scum. + Show Spoiler [written after Release's second FOS] + Also, Release: You're being very aggresive. Very agressive. I understand the need to get the scumhunt going as quickly as possible, but you've placed the only two players who have posted content under suspicion. I think this discourages people from posting content. Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. Based on that, I'll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up. I just think that you're going overboard. We need to get the ball rolling, but we also need people to talk. So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written. Also, I'd be very happy if you would be so kind as to explain to the rest of us why you're being so aggressive. If you really are town, then tell us, and trust us to be rational. If you're not, well you're certainly attracting a lot of attention. And please, everyone, get active. We need a healthy discussion if we are going to lynch scum today. If we have 4 lurkers though, I don't think we'll do very well. Note the spoiler.... Normally I wouldn't post much content between day cycles, but this seemed a little too not-factual. This post makes no sense at all. Even if we believe him: + Show Spoiler + On May 24 2012 08:37 Mordanis wrote: No, I just opened a few spoilers, and that stuck out at me. It was so wrong I couldn't help but correct it. It is the equivalent of me saying that Hegeo never mentioned Mufaa. I couldn't help but post that in case people review that in the night and take his statements at face value without reviewing the thread. At least that one was a bald-faced lie. So remember that everyone, when you read it. He accuses the 2 people who were on him from the start, you can expect some bias. It is nonsensical to build up his defense around this tiny tidbit, when there is a lot of other (and weightier) argumentation in that post. Seems like a total panic move on being called out. Now taking his more "collected" response into focus: He points out several weak points in hegeos case (e.g.the whole sciberbia/sciberia thing) and does an overall good job of defending. Nevertheless the "knee-jerk"-first-reaction is still incredibly scummy. He defends it by quoting emotion, which he before used as one of his arguments for the lynch on hegeo. Weak defense regarding that in general. To be honest if he had not had that reaction I would have probably discarded hegeo's case now as "bad townie play", in which I had put him anyway. Going on to Mordanis' post on day 1. Basically he just posts a giant repetition of the sequence of the events. He nudges in a point here in there (an fos on Golden, with a weakly outlined suspicion, some suspicions on me, which I will answer later and some more counterpressure against Release), but overall it is a useless summary of know events, which make him seem contributing without doing much in reality. Conclusively I would say that Mordanis has been the more suspicious part of the Release/Mordanis case and therefore should be pressured to talk more about his reasoning as he has already offered. So ##FOS: Mordanis. @Mordanis: You said that I was trying to stop a scumhunt. From your point of view this might have seemed reasonable if you ignored the fact that he flipped town. I stated my reasons for not joining the pressure on hegeo, I read him as weak/bad Townie (which he was), so I really do not understand your suspicion here. Grasping at straws to deflect attention? | ||
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Just putting it out for now: Milton is a really unsure read for me now. His posts on Release and Mordanis were good, his play has improved from day 1, but I still cling to my earlier pressure on him, regarding weak cases etc. etc. So his day 2 has given him some cred in my eyes but not enough to swipe away the suspicion. Furthermore I actually believe that solstice has gotten quite some good points on you golden. In your response to him you acknowledge most of the problems he pointed out in your play, but there is no explaination going on and then you go in with a simple vote on Milton? I would like to get some more reasoning for that. | ||
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A lynch on skware would be totally fine with me as well. he is almost as bad a lurker as mufaa was and I still do not get his vote on Release without some proper reasoning. I do hope though that Mordanis and Release might be able to see it and maybe give their opinion on the current state of the vote. Since we need 4 to lynch at least one of them has to come online and place his vote or we will end up with a no-lynch. | ||
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My main argumentation was actually a kind of weak case against hegeo, (I would be really happy if you could outline the entire "passive-aggressive" thing a bit better. It is still totally quizzical to me) the knee-jerk and no contribution in regards of day 2 until now (or much less in comparison to the zeal of day 1). The reason I investigated you and Release is not so much about Milton's ideas but more about a case of a confirmed townie (bad as he might have been), who spent a lot of effort writing it. I did say that your defense in general was pretty reasonable and logical (since the case of hegeo is much more about feeling a certain kind of tag-teaming in day 1 than solid evidence). Before hegeo's case you two were pretty high town reads for me and now I am just not as trusting anymore, which I hope is a reasonable stance towards you, since a "knee-jerk" remains a "knee-jerk". There is also no questioning that we did gather information from this and I was not suggesting lynching everyone who participates in a mislynch, my FOS was just in order to get more information, which you are openly providing. So that's a plus. Onto the topic of today's lynch I believe that with the current votecount we should go with the lynch on Golden. skware's play has been ridiculous until now so I would say if need arises he can easily be dealt with via lynch/whatever blue role we have. As of now we have about 2,5 hours to go (If I recall correctly) so unless Golden posts some substantial and good defense which can convince me, I'll stay put with ##Vote O.Golden_ne | ||
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On May 27 2012 06:09 Mordanis wrote: @Shiao Why don't you pay more attention to Sciberia's accusation of Solstice then? Sciberia was certainly killed by mafia, was certainly town, and was logical. I just don't get why you pay more attention to Hegeo who was killed by the town because he was a bad townie (illogical). Care to explain why? Maybe I should have posted my opinion on sciberbia's thoughts kind of got lost when I spent time catching up to the thread. After the post of hegeo I was pretty sure that he would be flipping town. Maybe it is sheeping solstice's reasons, but I see no reason for scum to act as hegeo did. Hegeo basically thought, okay I am dead better leave my best scumread behind even if it costs me the chance to defend myself. On another note it was in sciberbia's own quote: "I looked through solstice's filter and didn't find anything else I had an issue with, so I'm not prepared to say he is definitely scum, but it really strikes me as something suspcious. Again, just wanted to put it out there in case I die." It was not a "100%-convinced-of-it"-case as hegeo made his. I mean as I stated above, hegeo gave away his chance to make a reasonable defense for his case. Therefore I scrutinized it a lot more. Furthermore the mafia goals to shooting sciberbia have already outlined by me in this here: + Show Spoiler + On May 26 2012 00:35 ShiaoPi wrote: Sorry for the lack of activity before but as it is life happens. We just lost sciberbia so we probably should take a closer look on his filter: It mainly consists of pressure against Milton and some rebuttals with Mordanis and to a lesser extent release. Just before getting shot he also has a slight suspicion of solstice. What does mafia stand to gain from eliminating him? -Silencing a good and contributing townie, who was pretty much a high townread (at least in my opinion) -Removing Pressure off his targets -Making people suspicious of his targets Looking at it only the first point is a given the rest is probably close to WIFOM, but something to keep in mind following the discussion. Regarding our choice of lynch for day we now have as reasonable candidates Release/Mordanis/Milton and myself (I guess). I'll share my thoughts on the whole Release/Mordanis issue later, just wanted to say that we should not forget sciberbias contributions even though he got shot (maybe it should be even closer scrutinized because he was shot) As I pointed out you can only gain limited information from a nightkill as only 1) Silencing good/contributing town is a given. A lynch on the other hand gives you the entire dayplay to consider when rereading the thread to get to know how we ended up with that situation. So in conclusion, I did consider sciberbia's last post but I did not consider it to be as "strong" as hegeo's last post. Furthermore s0lstice's play after the post in which he explained his accusations against me seem to me very townie. As it is my personal read, I simply chose not to make that much out of sciberbia's "last words". I hope this makes sense to you, otherwise ask away! | ||
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We head into LYLO (gg to s0lstice) and Release's first action is to vote me after repeatedly saying that we should go after Milton in the previous night. This reason here: On May 28 2012 16:38 Release wrote: Considering the past lynches that we've had, the suspected scum turns out to be playing badly. ShiaoPi has kept his neck out of trouble and townies have not. I'll try to draw up a case against him before this game ends. The way I see it, he and Milton are scum. Milton plays badly enough that we can always et him lynched. (he is an exception to the above rule because he had sEveral obvious pro-scum posts. is beyond retarded. If you seriously believe that it gets ridiculous, you say that I am scum for not being a bad townie and for not getting lynched? Congratulations you should lynch all of us right now with this reasoning. A sudden switch after the Milton case onto me is totally uncomprehensible to me and just goes on to a meltdown for logic. If you do not care to elaborate I might have to reconsider my opinion of you. As we are in LYLO we should simply go after the one you find scummiest and not somebody who you might think is scum. Mislynch and it's over. Which is another reason why I would not support a lynch on skware, that's way too much coinflipping involved in going after him with his low amount of posts. | ||
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I said it already but I'll repeat I really do not like lynching skware, we can just flip a coin if we do it to determine the outcome of the game. I for one would be interested in the posts that were promised by Release and Milton before deciding on anything. If we are approaching deadline and he still does nothing then I might be willing to give it a shot, but until then no. | ||
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@mordanis What I really do not understand is why you seem so intent to go after the lurker. I saw your reasoning but it looks kind of stupid to be honest. I already said that at least one scum was on our vote against Golden, so there is no reason to actually go for the coinflip if it is much more reasonable to go after one of the 4 active players... Care to elaborate on your thoughts? What I have read until now is not really convincing. Correct me if I am wrong: "We should lynch him, because there is the chance that he is lurking scum and because of the apparent lack of lynching lurkers until now in our game. Which would make him feel safe." I am probably repeating myself but we are in LYLO and I'd rather not take my chances with a lurker if we can get the scum on our vote. | ||
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In regards to Release: I just skimmed through his filter again. I thought you could easily see his thoughtprocesses. he went after hegeo and got him lynched, then goes after Milton until he sees that Milton is seemingly pushed into hegeos position and therefore agrees on the consensus lynch against golden. He tries to bait out a kp from mafia by going into overaggression against Milton but nothing happens, which seems to him like a confirmation in his read that Milton might actually be a townie so now he is tunneling you. (Not saying that I agree with him in all points but that is how his train of thought seems to have went to me.) | ||
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Hey skware you here? ##vote: skware | ||
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It is just a fucking frustrating situation for LYLO and I am actually really pissed about this... | ||
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On May 30 2012 09:23 Mordanis wrote: And to clear up what I meant about being ashamed is really more like this: I am unable to feel the elation I felt at winning in my last game because my team won due to the bad play of the other side. Perhaps I just have a better time as town, having to figure things out rather than just trying to manipulate everyone. Meh. I'm curious as to what Release and Shiao were thinking, but I feel no great satisfaction in myself. Shiao and Release: you guys were much stronger than I expected. I don't know if you were intentionally holding back all game or what, but at several points I felt like we had the game won ezpz, and then for some reason (I still have no idea why Shiao was defending Release at the end), you guys walled up the whole that I was expecting to exploit. GG guys, I'm sorry it had to end this way. Aww, don't feel bad, lurkers happen ^^. I did hold back quite a bit, especially day 1, since if you look at Newbie Mini Mafia XIII. I was much more active/aggressive in that game, which got me shot night1 :D So I tried to avoid that scenario, which resulted in me almost getting lynched day1... Milton had been on my radar since day1, but his posts in day 2 really let me think twice, it was simply so much better than the previous ones. After Hegeo's case I thoroughly went through your and Release's filter and I can't quite explain why but you seemed scummier than Release, who I put tentively into the aggressive townie corner. So I had you as scum as well, but seeing that my town cred was shredded because of my abysmal day 1 play I simply did not believe that a case from me on you would have swayed town's opinion. After sciberbia and s0lstice got taken out I had no one as a sure townread anymore, which was kind of really bad for me :D Then at LYLO I felt that you tried to direct us at the single useless person we had left. After I had said that at least one scum must be on our vote I was fairly certain you were trying to distract us. So I tried to tunnel you into a scumslip and pray that skware would show up | ||
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On May 30 2012 09:40 O.Golden_ne wrote: we now learn to lynch lurkers day one hahaha, yeah we really should :D | ||
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