Newbie Mini XIV

Good evening all,

Well i've been following everything today via iPhone at work, but i'll be most active in the evenings. Such as now!

Okay to start things off, Release has taken a very aggressive stance.

This seems standard, someone always needs to shake things up. That being said, it was fairly amusing watching him post #FOS at anyone posting. I had a LOL at my desk. While it is good to shake things up, which he is doing. I do feel like he sort of shut down several good points that both Mordanis and Sciberbia have made, and is picking on some very minor problems with their posts that would be expected so early in the game.

Please dont focus on the semantics so much Release.
+ Show Spoiler +
I think take a bit to absorb what everyone is saying. Please remember that there are 7 of us Town and while discouraging fluff is essential in dissecting the mafia from the pack you need to keep in mind that the majority of us are town and we WANT to promote discussion. Pointing the finger at everyone that talks, for semantics OR their opinions is perhaps not the best way to encourage people to engage in a profitable discussion.

To add my 2 cents on the DayOneLynch (D1L)
I agree with hegeo, Release and Mordanis. It is my opinion that on day one we need to lynch someone, it provides a lot of information and in the optimum situation we can get lucky and hit a mafia. I'd rather mislynch one of our own, then wait a day and one of us get sniped. Ending up in a similar circumstance to the start of D1 just minus a player. Ugh.

Also, i consider lurkers to be quite scummy. So unless a lurker posts some seriously good content every day, they will be under some scrutiny from myself.

@Miltonkram, what is your on opinion on hegeo's statement:

I don't see any major reason for suspicion. All he really does is say that he's for lynch and against roleclaiming. This seems like a fairly obvious stance. Then he asks us what our stances areon these issues. If anything, this is suspicious because there are a lot of words to convey a few simple ideas. That being said, I think it is a good thing to convey thoughts completely. I'd rather read a wall of text every 15 minutes than have no idea what people are thinking when they vote. Obviously we can't give any weight to the fact that he explicitly said he's town. If we did, everyone would, and we'd be back at square one, minus however many hours it took us to get there. Frankly, this is a newbie game, and he seems relatively logical. Even though I'll never be able to say with 100% confidence that he is town, this post reads like an inexperienced town. That being said, I've dismissed a scum from my suspicion because I thought he was just being illogical, so I'd say we should keep our collective eye on him. I don't see nearly enough evidence though to push for a lynch.

One last thing: That is pretty scary timing Hegeo. You don't post at all for the 5 hours after the D1 post (which is in itself understandable, with sleep and such), but then you post (to defend yourself) 3 minutes past the first time someone calls you out (sort of?). The coincidence seems just a bit much. As someone who has watched (too much) House, I don't really believe in coincidences.

We lynch day 1, period. Debating about whether or not to lynch only happens if we have no reads to go off of, which to me makes the debate a non-factor.. We've heard from everyone now I believe, solid reads will come with a little time.

Can we stop discussion about policy now please? It creates an environment where scum can comfortably post and be 'CREDIT TO TEAM.' Scumhunting must begin now.

I'm looking first to sciberbia. I'm not sure if Release reads you as green, but I currently do. More fluff and I'll change my mind though. Your stated purpose was to generate discussion...mission accomplished. I'll be looking for you to make something out of it.

ShiaoPi has a small filter as well. You just like that back off your suspicions on sciberbia? Scum post fluffy quasi-useful posts all the time. They want to appear to be contributing without actually saying anything incriminating.

My thoughts on Mordanis's accusation of hegeo:

Mordanis, your statement about working with Golden struck me strangely as well. I was expecting someone to comment on it. And it makes sense that he would criticize you because you had just accused him. Doesn't seem odd to me. His defense is a litte weird, but I don't find it particularly scummy.

I'm really not quite sure what to make of his post about Release. I could see him posting it as either town or mafia.

Also, you say that he isn't helping scumhunt, but he just assembled some evidence against shiaopi.

Personally, I would be willing to vote for hegeo if it was between that and no-lynch, but I think we have better options. I don't really have a read on hegeo. I'll think about it more tomorrow if he's still in contention for lynching.

I encourage everyone to weigh in as we have have quite a few accusations.

Sorry, did I quoted you wrong here? You said:


I just wanted to point out that I didn't want to repeat what you said. Do others think I quoted him wrong and do you think I did it in a dismissive way, hence "chastening" release?

They started the day with a wonderful pas de deux before the thread really started of.

Release was the attacking part quickly ##FOSing Mordanis for his first post, also critizising Sciberbia for a question "myself and Mordanis" already answered and calls it “WIFOM” (remember that word please!). Nice.
Mordanis then said he was "glad for your early FOS", but told him to be "slightly more trusting" and that he was "very, very" aggressive (also citing a very nice opinion form Artanis: "Artanis, a player whom I trust, wrote that mafia are rarely aggresive. […] So please stop with the extreme distrust for a while, and wait for a little while while everyone analyzes what we've just written." We've written?
He also answered very shortly to the question “Sciberia” asked. Sciberia [sic]? But more on that later.
Release then answered “I understand your post so for now: unFOS: Mordanis”. Nice and easy.

Release asks Mordanis about his opinion on Sciberia’s [sic!] post then, Mordanis replies “he asks us what our stances are on these issues”.

Interim findings:
So what was established by them for now is that
a) agressive/active players aren't scum (I mean, why would they be, they could lurk around which is easier!) so both of them can't be scum, right?
b) They were attacking each other (kind of). So they can’t be scumbuddies, right? Why would they do so.
c) Everytime it’s “us” or “we”. Aren’t they nice buddies?
d) They talk about Sciberia. Not Sciberbia.

I join the table (and you will all now know my flip) and I find it kind of interesting what I read from them, but couldn’t see through it at that point.

I ask Mordanis out about some of his points (just to start my day basically) about “him and Golden” etc. Golden answers me very politely, Sciberbia also joins and we are all (the others more than me I have to admit) talking about each others opinions etc., Solstice focusses Miltonkram etc. ShiaoPI weighs in, good vibes.
When Golden calls him out, Release answers with an example from an earlier game (please remember the “earlier game” stuff), while he earlier stated (right in the beginning): “Also, why are you talking about the last game? You should be more concerned with this … This seems more like filler.” I agree with you. Filler here.

Release also answers to Mordanis post from earlier, where Mordanis asked “When do you think we need to start panicking?” (Mordanis quickly adds that he means “this question for everyone”. Glad you added this) Release points out that “we need more information”. And answering to solistices post : “people need to post more”. Activity!!

Sciberbia calls milton out, I mention releases posts (look at my original post!), also saying that “you have your points that I can agree with and you definitely contribute”. I also added that Mordanis also stated that he (Release) was aggressive earlier (this was merely to be careful not to be called someone who copies stuff from others).

At that point, I wanted to clarify why the both of them seemed so close. That was aggressive, yes, but before that I still believed in a strong but maybe accidental coincidence. I hoped to get at least one of them talking.
Since I wasn’t sure (and a little excited, my first mafia yeah!), I also critizised ShiaoPi for his posting, others added to this. In the end, I was satisfied with what he said in defense, I had (and have) a strong town read on him and told him that, when suddently…

Mordanis starts with a red “hegeo”. Uh, uh, I am screwed. He defends himself by accusing me of suspicious posting times (I already made mincemeat of his arguments, now I don't have to repeat them). AND he also defends his best buddy Release (the whole “chastens Release“ stuff), and I make him very angry because I remind him of his post in the beginning (where he said agressiveness could make someone look scummy). He says my analysis is bad. If you think so, Release- but I got what I wanted.
Sciberbia asks Mordanis what he thinks about my posts on shiaopi. I assume Mordanis didn’t read them (only the two about himself and his scumbuddy). So he states “I was actually ignoring them on purpose”.

Releases’s entrance:
A post, direct accusation, nothing else! At that time, I smelled scum. I pointed it out: “Wow, release and mordanis coming back at the same time!“ They didn’t care to answer (after all 40mins between their posts, could have made me look bad here). After seeing how I made them angry, no comment on this?? For your own protection I suppose.
Release called me a liar, (he bolded it to make sure everybody sees it!) and said he had no other option than to “##Vote: Hegeo”

And then this wonderful gem: He thinks 3 mafia are in this game? (See how he bolded these numbers? Give it a quick glance how much text he has bolded overall. He stated way more important stuff without ever bolding it.) NP, his buddy helps him out, with a smiley, citing the first page of the thread. 3mins (!) after Releases post, this answer is posted. He must have read all of Releases post, searched for the first page etc. I think, if you try to read Releases post directly after he posted it (so basically 15 secs after the post), can you read everything critically to this point AND see his mistake AND care about it more than about his points against me AND go to the frontpage AND quote AND add a little smiley face AND post it? Nice try.

Also, NO interaction between those two in thread! No “hello”, I think hegeo is stupid what do you think?
They are just silently working together as the tag team they are, trying to keep the pressure up.
(Release also says he will post an analysis of my post on ShiaoPi, maybe Mordanis reminded him to do so to make it less obvious…btw Release doesn’t deliver at all in this context)

Sciberbia is active during this period (while I was preparing my answers) to ask the terrible twins about their opinions. He also claims that he didn’t “find [Mordanis points on me] very inciminating”. Time for R&M to act! Sciberia is dangerous, we need to isolate hegeo and make Sciberia stop! (At the same time, ShiaoPi answers to my post. So much to read and write for me!)

Lot’s of cross-talk between people now, everybody asking everybody else (starting at May 23 2012 06:11) about opinions etc. I’m still writing.

So Mordanis calls “Sciberia” [sic!] out, telling him “this is not a very high level game” and that he should “Compare [his-Mordanis] post to Hegeo's accusation of ShiaoPi.” Do you really want people to do so, Mordanis? Sciberbia refuses to take a hit for being called “passive-aggressive”, manning up. Asking others on opinions about me. And why shouldn’t he? Mordanis is fluffing around, no quality posts whatsoever.

When Sciberbia doesn’t stop, Mordanis cites one of his older games as reason (quoting ShiaoPis post on me only being weird but most likely not scum): “Perhaps I am biased, but in my last game I read one player as an illogical townie, and he turned out to be mafia. This was embarrasing, but I read part of the scum QT, and all of the scum laughed at me for that read.” Funny. Your point? – We come back to that later. But wait - didn’t Release mention earlier that he didn’t like people talk about older games and critizised Mordanis for it,.. but wait, didn’t he himself talk about them as a basis of how to play?
Still no cross-talk (reread the timeframe I mention! Compare what others do!) between R&M.

I answer to Mordanis (I worked hard to show his lack of content etc and structured it the best I could, reread it), later also to ShiaoPi. Note that Shiao has a fairly logical stand towards me, he is not angry although I really may have sounded mean to him.

Mordanis comment on my post: “Wow, so much anger. …I am actually a bit angry about Hegeo's response and the game in general, so I'm gonna take a bit of time off before coming back. “
So he goes away for a… no wait! He posts 5 minutes later that “On second thought, that was not as angry as I thought. Still, its time to take a breather.” Then he goes. Had to talk to Release I suppose, sadly not in our thread. Let me remind you again, they are freaking angry at me (well, I don’t really think they are, but not to shabby acting there). Wait… did you say “they are angry”? We only see Mordanis’s post…Well:

Release joins the table (departure angry Mordanis, entrance angry Release again-May 23 2012 07:59) and gets insta-mad at Sciberbia and does his “##FOS: Sciberia”-Stuff. Oh, quite funny, “Sciberia” again.

Why can’t the both of you (and ONLY the both of you) write his name correctly? Like in “NEVER EVER” (Well, release writes “Sciberbia” once in the beginning. Mordanis even before game start omits the “b”. Quite the influence Mordanis has on you Release, no?)
He calls Sciberbias post “WIFOM”. Where have we read this term the last time… let me see…ahh yes, Mordanis said it to me. And Release earlier to Sciberbia in the beginning. (Later on, Sciberbia will cite this term only to defend himself when called on WIFOMing, no one else uses it)

And the best part of his post: “Still, hegeo seemed much worse about his response to my post than you are to mordanis.”??

- Well did I mention they kind of care for each other? While Mordanis states earlier that “Also, I think that we should stop defending for other people.”( May 23 2012 07:01) Mordanis never calls Release out on that, nor does he thank him for his help. No comment. Ever. No exchange of reads. Nothing.

To remind you where we stand: Two “angry” scumbuddies try to suffocate everybody else, taking turns on targeting the more active/aggressive players towards them (well, one is only lurking right now, but the other one fights for two).

Release gets mad at me not posting (while I said I would need time, and I answered to Mordanis and ShiaoPi in the meantime with pretty long posts. Remember, this is not my mother tongue, I need time to write stuff) He repeats “The longer you wait to respond to my post the more scummy you appear. Respond soon if not now!” which reminds me of his earlier “be warned”. Uh oh. Why don’t you ask Mordanis about his reads on people in the meantime, or at least commiserate in this thread with your angry buddy? I mean, my passive-aggressiveness made him so angry, why don’t you say a word when he gets out because he needs to calm down?

Oh wait, you do. Kind of. You attack me again for what you state “misquoting” Mordanis words on you in the beginning (May I post out, that you at that point seem to have read my post from 80mins ago): ”But again you take Mordanis's quote (like you did with mine) way out of context. Mordanis said that at the start after my double FOS very early in the game. I changed, he acknowledged, but you are trying to create an illusion that this hasn't happened. (May 23 2012 08:31)”
You changed? Right before that, in that very post, you ask me “Wtf is this shit?”
I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far. Oh wait, this is what you said about me. So I have to quote it: “I can find scumminess in virtually every post that you've made so far.” Sorry. And he repeats himself again on that I have to post now or I am scum. Release, you seemed pretty convinced I was scum (fellow townies, you see how I flip(ed)- don’t know when you read it), you didn’t give me ANY benefit of the doubt. I granted it to you, ShiaoPi and Mordanis (again, reread my posts). You saw me as an easy target. And I was.

Then I post my answer to Release (while he attacks sciberbia again, mentioning “WIFOM”). I wont elaborate on that. Read what I said.
In his “answer", this sentence here is nice btw: Quoting my post (“It seems as though you either just want to stir up anything you can…” [read original for full context) he answers “That bolded part is the most ridiculous crap I've ever heard.” Here I just rephrased your buddy btw: He said (May 22 2012 15:08) “I’ll trust that you are just trying to get things stirred up.” And at last, your standard ceterum censeo: “this is WIFOM territory”. Townies, reread his posts.
That brings us to the “end” of this action packed night.

Two angry scummies.
And just to remind everybody that I am a threat to town, I will quote Release:

“Since we are closing in on the Night post, we have a few things to decide: Which case is more important: The Solstice/ShiaoPi/Milton or the Hegeo case?” And one sentence later: “After Hegeo's lynch, you two are going to come under increasing pressure…” Or to paraphrase your intentions: Hey all, we need to kill him. He is a threat to…well, at least me and Mordanis.

You know how I flipped. You know who never EVER questioned wether he was right in my case (not before I was No.1 lynch target).
I started my day voting for Mufaa (Milton did it earlier without comments by our scummies, I did it just to see wether my scummy friends are still awake). And look who’s coming at me again!

Release: “i think we can all agree that Hegeo is begging to get lynched.” “place a vote on Hegeo.” (he also notes: Funny: You wake up when i go to sleep.” – I posted at 7:50AM of my time after rereading parts of the thread. I went to bed 2AMish. A classical 0 content post) See how safe he felt! He calls me scummy for voting Mufaa (I mean, come on, at least I didn’t do this “FOS her FOS there, FOS everywhere stuff”. Even marv is laughing about it.) And…

Entrance Mordanis again, being apologetic for getting angry… whatever (Mordanis, if you’re serious and /outofgame here, I appreciate it). But then, you have to mention your best buddy again:
“And finally, I think that Release has pretty much posted a refutation of your rebuttal.” Before your closing remarks on my emotions (how poetic, “on emotion”), I will quote them in full length:

“Hegeo's play seems to be ruled by emotion. This is exactly why I waited until I could be rational and logical before posting. I may have overestimated the amount of anger in this post, but I still believe there is a fair amount. Whether this leads to him being scummy or not is hard to say, but the atmosphere of emotion may have contributed to the lack of posting in the previous hours.”

To quote you on that topic when answering ShiaoPi (May 23 2012 07:01) “...,my pride is seeking revenge for the scum disguised as illogical townie.”

Your pride and revenge? As in emotionally motivated?

And finally, “I'm nervous about not lynching because people are afraid to jump on a bandwagon so early, so I'll vote now. I will however vote for whomever we can muster a majority for.
##Vote: hegeo”

Fellow townies.

I worked on my case instead of being in thread the last hours (sorry for that, but if I die today defending myself against scum and you, the evidence I have gets lost). Sorry for not contributing today. As you may see from this, my reads on other people are not anti-town at least, mostly green. (Well Mufaa…)

You see/saw how I flipped. I admit I could have played better. But after understanding, that I didn’t only hit one but the two scumbuddies at the same time (that also chose a very aggressive stance in this game), the game was basically already over for me, when I don’t get lynched I’ll die quickly afterwards though. I tried to make my points as you can see, there are also numerous smaller things that could be a coincidence once, but 30 coincidences? Really? I tried to find them for anybody else, drew a network diagram who interacted etc. Do it and you see what I see (if you are not convinced).

I hope you consider lynching at least one of them on D2. They will try to tell you that there was “so much evidence” and what not, that I was aggressive, that they realized that there were other cases also later on and were to focussed on me because I called them out, how could they have known that, they will try to prove to you that they are town yadayada.

They started putting votes on me. They only interacted in thread when universalities were discussed in the beginning and pressured each other in the beginning with a slight tickle. Contradictions en masse. Tag-teaming. Wording. Feelings. Pressuring. Pushing cases no matter what, agressively. See how they pushed their case. Their ONLY case (until it was sure I would be killed)
Look at what I wrote. Reread it. It cost me many hours. If one of them flips scum, kill the other.
Question their intentions towards each other, ask them to point out what the other did wrong. Force errors. Make them sweat. Look at how they behave in the near future.Don't let them pick on single points.

Dear Mordanis and Release
Hopefully, I can read your QT in a while. If you are just two townies, I nominated you for best tag-team ever, you get on like a house on fire. It’s so obvious I doubted my read in the beginning.

Disclaimer: I never was really angry or whatever towards anybody, I merely wanted to state that. It’s a game. I hope my read is correct, and that you understand why I had to work on that case rather than having futile discussions (imo) in thread