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On May 10 2012 09:51 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 09:34 wherebugsgo wrote:On May 10 2012 09:30 Probulous wrote:
But [7],[1] and [7],[4] don't have a second clash?
Surely it works in a filter situation where people are grouped on how their first number clashes? Ie all those with 7 as their first number are put together. For example if you had
[7][1]
[7][1]
[7][4]
The order would be
[7][4]
[7][1]
[7][1]
Because their second number clashed. That seems most logical to me. again, then everyone would pick 1 as the second number. Then all that matters is first number uniqueness. e: think about it this way. one guy picks 2/2. Everyone else picks X/1. The one person with a unique X appears first, 2/2 appears second. Is that fair?  Why would you pick 1 as your second number when it is likely to clash and put you at the bottom of whatever group you end up in? In the example above picking 1 made you come last. In your example the [2],[2] would be first. Remember you evaluate the first number first. Your example: [1,1] [1,2] [2,2] [5,1] [1,4] [1,1] This would be ordered into groups based on the first number. So you would have [1,1],[1,2],[1,4],[1,1] [2,2] [5,1] as the groups The order when then be [2,2] [5,1] [1,2] [1,4] [1,1] [1,1] Why is that not fair?
read what I said again
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On May 10 2012 07:29 GMarshal wrote:
Bleh, looking at it, I disagree with the logic used in PYP:I, I'd place the numbers as so
[19,19]
[1,1]
[1,1]
[6,9]
[6,20]
[7,1]
[7,4]
[7,2]
[7,2]
On May 10 2012 08:59 Qatol wrote:
Edit: To be clear, I think the numbers should be arranged as follows:
[19,19]
[6,9]
[6,20]
[7,1]
[7,4]
[1,1]
[1,1]
[7,2]
[7,2]
Of course there is a big debate because the OPs have been confusingly worded since the beginning (and PYP Insane/Interesting maybe some others also didn't follow how the OP is worded, the formula changed somewhere between PYP 2 and 3).
GMarshal's way makes the most sense and that's how it was done in PYP Interesting. All blocks of first number picks are continuous.
The formula is:
Order the list by uniqueness of first number. Now all of the players who picked [x] as their first number are grouped into a sublist. The second number helps determine the relative orderings of these players who picked [x].
In the example of:
1. [19]
2. [1]
3. [1]
4. [6]
5. [6]
6. [7]
7. [7]
8. [7]
9. [7]
There are 4 sublists. The sublist containing people who picked [19] as their first number, the sublist containing people who picked [1] as their first number, etc. Now you use the 2nd number to determine the order of people in each sublist. But each sublist maintains its slot in the ordering, so there are no 7s jumping before 1s.
Just think of it as, 7 is the least unique number, so all the 7s go to the end of the list. All the players who picked 6 are part of a sublist that occupies slots 4-5 in the order. All players who picked 7 are now part of a sublist that occupies slots 6-9 in the draft order. Now repeat the process and order each sublist by uniqueness of the second number. Second number should be a tiebreaker for picking the same first number, there is no need to "make both numbers meaningful". 2nd number is only meaningful if you picked a bad first number.
If you want the 2nd number to have more meaning, you might as well expand the range of numbers from like 1-100 just so that you get less clashes, or you might as well randomize the draft list. Making the 2nd number more meaningful just increases the luck. Keeping it as a tiebreaker makes people think more carefully about their 1st number pick.
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On May 10 2012 12:01 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 07:29 GMarshal wrote:
Bleh, looking at it, I disagree with the logic used in PYP:I, I'd place the numbers as so
[19,19]
[1,1]
[1,1]
[6,9]
[6,20]
[7,1]
[7,4]
[7,2]
[7,2] Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 08:59 Qatol wrote:
Edit: To be clear, I think the numbers should be arranged as follows:
[19,19]
[6,9]
[6,20]
[7,1]
[7,4]
[1,1]
[1,1]
[7,2]
[7,2]
Of course there is a big debate because the OPs have been confusingly worded since the beginning (and PYP Insane/Interesting maybe some others also didn't follow how the OP is worded, the formula changed somewhere between PYP 2 and 3). GMarshal's way makes the most sense and that's how it was done in PYP Interesting. All blocks of first number picks are continuous. The formula is: Order the list by uniqueness of first number. Now all of the players who picked [x] as their first number are grouped into a sublist. The second number helps determine the relative orderings of these players who picked [x]. In the example of: 1. [19] 2. [1] 3. [1] 4. [6] 5. [6] 6. [7] 7. [7] 8. [7] 9. [7] There are 4 sublists. The sublist containing people who picked [19] as their first number, the sublist containing people who picked [1] as their first number, etc. Now you use the 2nd number to determine the order of people in each sublist. But each sublist maintains its slot in the ordering, so there are no 7s jumping before 1s. Just think of it as, 7 is the least unique number, so all the 7s go to the end of the list. All the players who picked 6 are part of a sublist that occupies slots 4-5 in the order. All players who picked 7 are now part of a sublist that occupies slots 6-9 in the draft order. Now repeat the process and order each sublist by uniqueness of the second number. Second number should be a tiebreaker for picking the same first number, there is no need to "make both numbers meaningful". 2nd number is only meaningful if you picked a bad first number. If you want the 2nd number to have more meaning, you might as well expand the range of numbers from like 1-100 just so that you get less clashes, or you might as well randomize the draft list. Making the 2nd number more meaningful just increases the luck. Keeping it as a tiebreaker makes people think more carefully about their 1st number pick.
The example here doesn't cover all possibilities, but the wording does. I'm assuming in your scenario if I had four 6's instead of four 7's then it would look like this:
1. [19]
2. [1]
3. [1]
4. [7]
5. [7]
6. [6]
7. [6]
8. [6]
9. [6]
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On May 10 2012 12:01 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 07:29 GMarshal wrote:
Bleh, looking at it, I disagree with the logic used in PYP:I, I'd place the numbers as so
[19,19]
[1,1]
[1,1]
[6,9]
[6,20]
[7,1]
[7,4]
[7,2]
[7,2] Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 08:59 Qatol wrote:
Edit: To be clear, I think the numbers should be arranged as follows:
[19,19]
[6,9]
[6,20]
[7,1]
[7,4]
[1,1]
[1,1]
[7,2]
[7,2]
Of course there is a big debate because the OPs have been confusingly worded since the beginning (and PYP Insane/Interesting maybe some others also didn't follow how the OP is worded, the formula changed somewhere between PYP 2 and 3). GMarshal's way makes the most sense and that's how it was done in PYP Interesting. All blocks of first number picks are continuous. The formula is: Order the list by uniqueness of first number. Now all of the players who picked [x] as their first number are grouped into a sublist. The second number helps determine the relative orderings of these players who picked [x]. In the example of: 1. [19] 2. [1] 3. [1] 4. [6] 5. [6] 6. [7] 7. [7] 8. [7] 9. [7] There are 4 sublists. The sublist containing people who picked [19] as their first number, the sublist containing people who picked [1] as their first number, etc. Now you use the 2nd number to determine the order of people in each sublist. But each sublist maintains its slot in the ordering, so there are no 7s jumping before 1s. Just think of it as, 7 is the least unique number, so all the 7s go to the end of the list. All the players who picked 6 are part of a sublist that occupies slots 4-5 in the order. All players who picked 7 are now part of a sublist that occupies slots 6-9 in the draft order. Now repeat the process and order each sublist by uniqueness of the second number. Second number should be a tiebreaker for picking the same first number, there is no need to "make both numbers meaningful". 2nd number is only meaningful if you picked a bad first number. If you want the 2nd number to have more meaning, you might as well expand the range of numbers from like 1-100 just so that you get less clashes, or you might as well randomize the draft list. Making the 2nd number more meaningful just increases the luck. Keeping it as a tiebreaker makes people think more carefully about their 1st number pick.
Wasn't this the way I did it in the original PYP? Meh I think as long as people realize picking a unique first number is the real way to "win" the point gets across.
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I buy what incognito is saying although the rank by uniqueness first should be put into the rules.
By the way, I still don't understand the need for a second number at all. I think we could have a perfectly good game without it and flips for tiebreaker instead.
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On May 10 2012 13:31 talismania wrote:
I buy what incognito is saying although the rank by uniqueness first should be put into the rules.
By the way, I still don't understand the need for a second number at all. I think we could have a perfectly good game without it and flips for tiebreaker instead.
Or we could have it to avoid coinflips between 4 players...
Edit i agree most people will just pick 1 as the second number, but some people doesn't for that exact reason.
Edit 2: really excited for this to start! To all you lovely people i haven't played with before, please go read some of the old pyp's, this is a very special setup with a lot of interesting theory build up over time, let's try and improve on that  .
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Ace, was PYP your own concept, or did you adapt it from somewhere else?
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On May 10 2012 13:02 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 12:01 Incognito wrote:On May 10 2012 07:29 GMarshal wrote:
Bleh, looking at it, I disagree with the logic used in PYP:I, I'd place the numbers as so
[19,19]
[1,1]
[1,1]
[6,9]
[6,20]
[7,1]
[7,4]
[7,2]
[7,2] On May 10 2012 08:59 Qatol wrote:
Edit: To be clear, I think the numbers should be arranged as follows:
[19,19]
[6,9]
[6,20]
[7,1]
[7,4]
[1,1]
[1,1]
[7,2]
[7,2]
Of course there is a big debate because the OPs have been confusingly worded since the beginning (and PYP Insane/Interesting maybe some others also didn't follow how the OP is worded, the formula changed somewhere between PYP 2 and 3). GMarshal's way makes the most sense and that's how it was done in PYP Interesting. All blocks of first number picks are continuous. The formula is: Order the list by uniqueness of first number. Now all of the players who picked [x] as their first number are grouped into a sublist. The second number helps determine the relative orderings of these players who picked [x]. In the example of: 1. [19] 2. [1] 3. [1] 4. [6] 5. [6] 6. [7] 7. [7] 8. [7] 9. [7] There are 4 sublists. The sublist containing people who picked [19] as their first number, the sublist containing people who picked [1] as their first number, etc. Now you use the 2nd number to determine the order of people in each sublist. But each sublist maintains its slot in the ordering, so there are no 7s jumping before 1s. Just think of it as, 7 is the least unique number, so all the 7s go to the end of the list. All the players who picked 6 are part of a sublist that occupies slots 4-5 in the order. All players who picked 7 are now part of a sublist that occupies slots 6-9 in the draft order. Now repeat the process and order each sublist by uniqueness of the second number. Second number should be a tiebreaker for picking the same first number, there is no need to "make both numbers meaningful". 2nd number is only meaningful if you picked a bad first number. If you want the 2nd number to have more meaning, you might as well expand the range of numbers from like 1-100 just so that you get less clashes, or you might as well randomize the draft list. Making the 2nd number more meaningful just increases the luck. Keeping it as a tiebreaker makes people think more carefully about their 1st number pick. Wasn't this the way I did it in the original PYP? Meh I think as long as people realize picking a unique first number is the real way to "win" the point gets across.
But what if everyone clashes? Suddenly all of this becomes important!
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United States22154 Posts
On May 10 2012 12:01 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 07:29 GMarshal wrote:
Bleh, looking at it, I disagree with the logic used in PYP:I, I'd place the numbers as so
[19,19]
[1,1]
[1,1]
[6,9]
[6,20]
[7,1]
[7,4]
[7,2]
[7,2] Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 08:59 Qatol wrote:
Edit: To be clear, I think the numbers should be arranged as follows:
[19,19]
[6,9]
[6,20]
[7,1]
[7,4]
[1,1]
[1,1]
[7,2]
[7,2]
Of course there is a big debate because the OPs have been confusingly worded since the beginning (and PYP Insane/Interesting maybe some others also didn't follow how the OP is worded, the formula changed somewhere between PYP 2 and 3). GMarshal's way makes the most sense and that's how it was done in PYP Interesting. All blocks of first number picks are continuous. The formula is: Order the list by uniqueness of first number. Now all of the players who picked [x] as their first number are grouped into a sublist. The second number helps determine the relative orderings of these players who picked [x]. In the example of: 1. [19] 2. [1] 3. [1] 4. [6] 5. [6] 6. [7] 7. [7] 8. [7] 9. [7] There are 4 sublists. The sublist containing people who picked [19] as their first number, the sublist containing people who picked [1] as their first number, etc. Now you use the 2nd number to determine the order of people in each sublist. But each sublist maintains its slot in the ordering, so there are no 7s jumping before 1s. Just think of it as, 7 is the least unique number, so all the 7s go to the end of the list. All the players who picked 6 are part of a sublist that occupies slots 4-5 in the order. All players who picked 7 are now part of a sublist that occupies slots 6-9 in the draft order. Now repeat the process and order each sublist by uniqueness of the second number. Second number should be a tiebreaker for picking the same first number, there is no need to "make both numbers meaningful". 2nd number is only meaningful if you picked a bad first number. If you want the 2nd number to have more meaning, you might as well expand the range of numbers from like 1-100 just so that you get less clashes, or you might as well randomize the draft list. Making the 2nd number more meaningful just increases the luck. Keeping it as a tiebreaker makes people think more carefully about their 1st number pick.
Oh, good someone explained it for me, now I don't have to do it. This pretty much sums it up, adding to the OP for clarity.
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United States22154 Posts
Ok, Player list updated (I rnged the last 4 slots among the remaining people who seemed interested [Including risen's /out slot] , sorry if you didn't get in)
OP updated, added two roles, Jack of All Trades and Angry Vigilante, and revised the traitor role. Serial Killers added to the game for balancing purposes.
By request, game will start Monday rather than Friday. Other than that we are ready to rock, feel free to complain about balance *now* before the game starts.
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GM edit: No pregame claims please.
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United States22154 Posts
No pregame claims please.
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Oh well =/
Obs Qt please in that case ^^
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I'd like to play in this game, but I don't want anyone to know I'm playing, and don't want any activity requirements. Also, I want to be third party and win with everyone. + Show Spoiler +
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United States22154 Posts
Anyone who wants the obs qt should pm me when the game is underway
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On May 10 2012 22:52 GMarshal wrote:
No pregame claims please.
Sorry bout that
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Can we do the alignment + drafting phase over the weekend? People should still be able to send in thier numbers even though they are alittle bussy.
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All this number talk is hurting my head. I'm just gonna RNG 2 numbers and hope for the best
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United States22154 Posts
On May 10 2012 23:30 risk.nuke wrote:
Can we do the alignment + drafting phase over the weekend? People should still be able to send in thier numbers even though they are alittle bussy.
Alignment + Drafting phase gets ridiculously intense/busy (its when everyone bust outs their ridiculous plans) seeing as they only last 24 hours, and at least 3 people have told me they are going to be really busy over the weekend, I'd rather not risk it and wait. I'm itching to get started too (if it depended on me we'd start Friday)
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EPT
