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On April 25 2012 23:08 prplhz wrote:
@Ace You say that the case on MrZentor is essentially the post he made today where he promised content later, is that really the best there is in this thread after ~20 pages?
No, it's just one of a few things I'm looking it. This is the way I see the scenario played out:
Yesterday remember Zentor was never really in serious danger to get lynched, but he did show up towards the end of the day. So he had ample time to know that he was a suspect and that his self vote attracted some negative attention.
Today he starts off with another self-vote. Based on Day 1 of him not getting lynched even though he attracted attention I think any competent Scum player would do this. He knows the Town failed at securing a lynch yesterday so why not do it again today?
The Mason part is just icing on the cake. He literally calls for the Masons to claim so that he can provide us with analysis 20 hours later. But this is just typical Scum play pioneered by the Great L: Promise the Town future content and dead scum for some leniency today or a little more information. But him asking for Mason claims isn't even anything new as we spent the early part of the first day talking about. As I also said before - 2 confirmed Townies showing up makes everyone's analysis tighter. It isn't some unique information that somehow gives Zentor a ridiculously clear picture. If he is the guy driving analysis and wagons then I've clearly missed this thread.
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On April 26 2012 01:41 Snarfs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 01:37 marvellosity wrote:On April 26 2012 01:23 Snarfs wrote:
@marvellosity: Can you answer Bluelightz's question? Who would you lynch besides MrZentor today, and importantly, why? I wouldn't lynch anyone besides the guy who is playing a lot more scummy than anyone else. Sigh, you're doing an amazing job at sheeping Ace.
Having 2 Aces is better than 1 imo
S&b:
Ace, we already have more than a majority voting to lynch Zentor. You've said you want to focus on his lynch and not discuss other potential scum because it "just throws more names out there." Now that the Zentor lynch seems to be pretty much the status quo, what do you suggest we discuss, if not our scum reads on other people?
I didn't know we hit majority on Zentor. I'll wait for his flip before tossing more names around.
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Don't tell me you actually believed him hahahaha
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I feel like there is much effort to throw around other suspects names' and derail the wagon on Mr.Zentor.
The same Zentor who showed up with his "20 hours later" post and didn't even attempt to convince anyone on his reads.
Are you people really this dumb?
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I actually have VE as my third most scummy read and I think the most telling part of Radfield's post was when he called VE out for lack of trying to secure any lynch. I got the feeling VE didn't care WHO died Day 1 as long as it wasn't him.
But I think the activity once Radfield posted his case on VE is much more telling. There is an attempt to derail the Zentor wagon here: Bluelightz just brought up his 100th suspect in less than 24 hours, Zentor didn't even TRY to convince anyone of his reads, said "good job Radfield!" and um...he didn't even vote after that.
So was he convinced of Radfield's case on VE, or was he just like "good, hope this derails my wagon" and slumped off? I mean just look at his last posts: He says VE and phagga are obviously Scummy but doesn't vote for either one as if Radfield's case is going to do all the work.
And the amazing part is that both he and bluelightz have phagga and VE as a Scum team with no real case of their own on either player.
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On April 26 2012 22:35 MrZentor wrote:
I always wait to use my vote, stupid.
Waiting for what? If you say two people are Scum and don't even vote for them then you have no excuse. You aren't even trying to convince anyone that the people you called out are Scum.
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Sbrubbles names was thrown out for no reason. It was an attempt to divert the Zentor wagon as there is no case on him at all.
VE doesn't have anything on him and is just spewing bs.
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oh well, more prize money for the rest of us
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Nice to know you've been keeping up Radfield! So why didn't you comment on Bluelightz ignoring the case on Zentor and throwing suspects out like a water cannon before? And yes he is the easy lynch for tomorrow.
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On April 27 2012 08:12 Radfield wrote:There is no way we are lynching bluelightz tomorrow, and I don't even have a READ on him yet(let alone think he is town). But Bluelightz posts are so random and bouncy that ANYONE can make a half-assed case without trying. A bluelightz lynch will get us no more info than a zentor lynch did. Ask yourself Ace, have we really learned anything from lynching Zentor? Almost every mislynch you learn a tremendous amount of information... unless of course you pick some weak townie who's hardly playing and everyone piles on. There is going to be very little to discern scum from town on the zentor wagon(though I imagine scum were not the ones pushing hard for his lynch). Tomorrow we do things my way. We actually scumhunt, we build cases, we discuss and we don't just drop back on some weak bluelightz case. (unless someone want's to build a serious and thought out case on bluelightz, which I have no problem with) Only 8 minutes and you made me sad Ace 
hold up playa - I didn't say we WILL lynch him. I said he's the easy lynch. I think we did learn plenty from Zentor's lynch:
1.) You and/or Bluelightz knew ahead of time that he was innocent because one of you is Scum. I think BL is the easy lynch precisely because of this. He didn't actually address the arguments against Zentor. Just calling out suspects with every new post.
2.) Even if you think the Zentor lynch was easy everyone knew it was coming. There is NO way anyone that is competent at this game would have let someone playing like that live. Just because it was easy doesn't mean it was bad. Once again - look at his posts and look at my post outlining how the chain of events happened. Address those points if you want to defend this lynch.
Don't worry about being sad though, I'm here to make everything better.
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On April 27 2012 08:16 Snarfs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 07:58 Ace wrote:
Nice to know you've been keeping up Radfield! So why didn't you comment on Bluelightz ignoring the case on Zentor and throwing suspects out like a water cannon before? And yes he is the easy lynch for tomorrow. You never say whether you agree with a BL lynch. Do you?
You asked me about him recently?
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What you deem as an incorrect way of scumhunting, I see as a golden opportunity for Scum to buy cred. And since I've done it multiple times myself as Scum I think I would know it when I see it.
Majority of the Town thinks Player A is Scum. Scum knows Player A is innocent, gets on any wagon not involving Player A. When Player A flips Town goes with the "I told you so!" rhetoric.
This is why BEFORE Zentor flipped I outlined that no one attacked the case on Mr.Zentor but instead brought up new suspects to divert the wagon. Go ahead and REREAD the thread. If I'm wrong - show me. Show me where anyone had an actual breakdown of the cases on Zentor being wrong instead of "I don't think a Townie would act like this". Saying zentor did nothing that screamed out he is Scum is just comical.
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BL is my #2 Scum read.
It's impossible for there to be only 2 Scum in a 13 player set up.
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On April 27 2012 10:11 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 10:06 Ace wrote:
BL is my #2 Scum read.
It's impossible for there to be only 2 Scum in a 13 player set up.
Why do you say that? http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=C9++Am I reading the setup options wrong? Bugs, it having a 2 player scum team one possible setup of a C9++?
I've never seen the Goon + Godfather only Scum team in a 13 player setup with no SK. Even accounting for a 1 shot Cop that is a damn hard setup for Scum to win from.
On April 27 2012 10:10 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 09:56 Ace wrote:
What you deem as an incorrect way of scumhunting, I see as a golden opportunity for Scum to buy cred. And since I've done it multiple times myself as Scum I think I would know it when I see it.
Majority of the Town thinks Player A is Scum. Scum knows Player A is innocent, gets on any wagon not involving Player A. When Player A flips Town goes with the "I told you so!" rhetoric.
This is why BEFORE Zentor flipped I outlined that no one attacked the case on Mr.Zentor but instead brought up new suspects to divert the wagon. Go ahead and REREAD the thread. If I'm wrong - show me. Show me where anyone had an actual breakdown of the cases on Zentor being wrong instead of "I don't think a Townie would act like this". Saying zentor did nothing that screamed out he is Scum is just comical.
Look I know the drill, and I've obviously done it before as scum too. I just strongly object the way that you are setting up bluelightz for a Day 3 lynch, based mainly off the fact that he refused to vote for a now confirmed town, and instead searched about for better targets. It's simplistic to say that of the two players NOT voting for Zentor, one of us is scum. It is not far fetched at all for the entire mafia team to pile on Zentor, particularly if we're looking at a two player team. There was no case on Zentor to even attack. No one could dispute his actions, you can only dispute his motivations - were they mafia motivated to mess up a thread, or just a bored trolling townie. That is not something you can debate or attack, you can only state your opinion on the matter.
My own are right here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14479651
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14479763
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=14480050
I analyzed his actions in all my posts and yes you can dispute them. It's exactly what I did. I said even before Zentor flipped and I'll say it again: No one addressed any of the cases, or "people posting about Zentor's actions" if thats what you want to call it. No one. It was just throwing other suspects names out there and saying "I dont think a Townie would do this" which is not the way to convince other players NOT to lynch someone. Really, it's just appearing to defend a guy while not giving a shit.
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On April 27 2012 10:35 Radfield wrote:First two are just you stating Zentor didn't care about defending himself, which he obviously didn't. No one can dispute that(though bluelightz actually tries ). The third has some points, though mainly just conjecture about Zentor's actions. The thing is, bluelightz defended Zentor long before his lynch was assured, and also actually responded to two of your posts that you linked. Eventually he just stops focusing on Zentor as his lynch was pretty much assured, and moves on to looking for scum. A completely appropriate and townie thing to do. He never just barges in and calls everyone stupid for voting an obvious townie, nor does he try to set himself up to look good after Zentor's death. He simply refuses to vote for someone he has a town read on. I don't get why you think that is scummy.
Ok let me try this again.
BL shows up "defending" Mr.Zentor's lynch long before it happens. However, he never talks about why Zentor must be Town. I don't see it in any of his posts so if they are there show me. It's literally "I dont think a Townie would do this" which isn't a real defense. If he REALLY thinks Zentor is innocent why would he not destroy any of the posts against him? He didn't. This is why I said he comes off as Scum knowing Zentor is innocent ahead of time. He looks like he's defending Zentor but he really isn't.
The second bolded doesn't make him Town. "Looking for Scum" is subjective as even Scum can look for Scum. I don't think you are looking at the big picture here. Once again, look at the chain of events the way they went down. Once you showed up with a post on VE, BL shows up with a 19 minutes later with a post calling out a Scum team of VE, Forumite and phagga.
His next post after that is calling out Sbrubbles as Scum. He even tries to throw me in there and says me and Sbrubbles must be talking in QT.
That's 5 players in not even a quarter of a day that he calls out before Zentor is even flipped and you want to believe he was actually Scum hunting. Seriously this is very simple: If he truly believed Zentor was Town and he is also Town then why would he focus his efforts on calling out 5 other players instead of saving Zentor? He had ample time. He also should know that calling 5 players out isn't going to lead to all of them voting for whoever he thinks is Scum. This was a feigned attempt to look like he was defending a player and attempting to find Scum when he did neither.
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So anyone going to respond to my post up there?
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On April 28 2012 00:35 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 00:12 Bluelightz wrote:
brubbles, could you man up and make a case on your most scummiest target?
Next: Does Ace's play match if you read it as a scum perspective? I could, but my reads aren't that strong at this point. I'd rather not make a half-baked case and wait until daypost. The only this I found strange in Ace's play was not wanting to talk about other lynch candidades, specifically this post: + Show Spoiler +On April 25 2012 23:06 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:01 Bluelightz wrote:
IF ZENTOR WASNT LYNCHED TODAY, WHO WOULD YOU LYNCH AND WHY?
That's the question I'd like everyone (that has only voiced suspicion on Zentor today) to answer.
Irrelevant. I'm not answering this because it does nothing to further the game as its just throwing more names out there. Right now what is important is Mr.Zentor and your defense against him. Putting out more scum reads does nothing. But it makes sense if he suspects you, since he is pressuring you to talk. Otherwise, I've agreed with his play and most his reads so far.
I almost always keep my reads of other players to myself unless I feel we really are getting no where. When the Zentor lynch was going on I didn't want to bring up other players because that can easily derail the wagon and cause a NL.
On April 28 2012 04:38 strongandbig wrote:
I postulate that Ace intentionally plays scummy as town so that when he's scum he can play scummy and get away with it.
I further postulate that this makes his town play less helpful to the town than it makes his scum play helpful to the scum team.
The clear solution is to lynch Ace every game until he shapes up.
What about my play is intentionally Scummy? Since you've obviously read the 30 or so games here I've played I'd love to hear it.
On April 28 2012 00:13 Sbrubbles wrote:@Ace + Show Spoiler +On April 27 2012 10:55 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 10:35 Radfield wrote:First two are just you stating Zentor didn't care about defending himself, which he obviously didn't. No one can dispute that(though bluelightz actually tries ). The third has some points, though mainly just conjecture about Zentor's actions. The thing is, bluelightz defended Zentor long before his lynch was assured, and also actually responded to two of your posts that you linked. Eventually he just stops focusing on Zentor as his lynch was pretty much assured, and moves on to looking for scum. A completely appropriate and townie thing to do. He never just barges in and calls everyone stupid for voting an obvious townie, nor does he try to set himself up to look good after Zentor's death. He simply refuses to vote for someone he has a town read on. I don't get why you think that is scummy. Ok let me try this again. BL shows up "defending" Mr.Zentor's lynch long before it happens. However, he never talks about why Zentor must be Town. I don't see it in any of his posts so if they are there show me. It's literally "I dont think a Townie would do this" which isn't a real defense. If he REALLY thinks Zentor is innocent why would he not destroy any of the posts against him? He didn't. This is why I said he comes off as Scum knowing Zentor is innocent ahead of time. He looks like he's defending Zentor but he really isn't. The second bolded doesn't make him Town. "Looking for Scum" is subjective as even Scum can look for Scum. I don't think you are looking at the big picture here. Once again, look at the chain of events the way they went down. Once you showed up with a post on VE, BL shows up with a 19 minutes later with a post calling out a Scum team of VE, Forumite and phagga. His next post after that is calling out Sbrubbles as Scum. He even tries to throw me in there and says me and Sbrubbles must be talking in QT. That's 5 players in not even a quarter of a day that he calls out before Zentor is even flipped and you want to believe he was actually Scum hunting. Seriously this is very simple: If he truly believed Zentor was Town and he is also Town then why would he focus his efforts on calling out 5 other players instead of saving Zentor? He had ample time. He also should know that calling 5 players out isn't going to lead to all of them voting for whoever he thinks is Scum. This was a feigned attempt to look like he was defending a player and attempting to find Scum when he did neither. I feel like his town Zentor read was a gut read, and, frankly, Zentor himself wasn't resisting the lynch, so it was hard to defend him. I would argue that Bluelightz's intentions were simply to not let the discussion die out. Just because there's a good candidade is in place, it doesn't mean we should cease talking. I don't agree with his reads nor how he pushes them, but I don't think he's scum. He's being erratic, but, unlike Zentor, he's being much more accusative.
Even if you don't want the discussion to die out how does accusing so many people in a short amount of time get us anywhere? I've done the same behavior as Scum many times just to get the finger pointing started amongst the Town.
On April 28 2012 00:21 Bluelightz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 00:13 Sbrubbles wrote:@Ace + Show Spoiler +On April 27 2012 10:55 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 10:35 Radfield wrote:First two are just you stating Zentor didn't care about defending himself, which he obviously didn't. No one can dispute that(though bluelightz actually tries ). The third has some points, though mainly just conjecture about Zentor's actions. The thing is, bluelightz defended Zentor long before his lynch was assured, and also actually responded to two of your posts that you linked. Eventually he just stops focusing on Zentor as his lynch was pretty much assured, and moves on to looking for scum. A completely appropriate and townie thing to do. He never just barges in and calls everyone stupid for voting an obvious townie, nor does he try to set himself up to look good after Zentor's death. He simply refuses to vote for someone he has a town read on. I don't get why you think that is scummy. Ok let me try this again. BL shows up "defending" Mr.Zentor's lynch long before it happens. However, he never talks about why Zentor must be Town. I don't see it in any of his posts so if they are there show me. It's literally "I dont think a Townie would do this" which isn't a real defense. If he REALLY thinks Zentor is innocent why would he not destroy any of the posts against him? He didn't. This is why I said he comes off as Scum knowing Zentor is innocent ahead of time. He looks like he's defending Zentor but he really isn't. The second bolded doesn't make him Town. "Looking for Scum" is subjective as even Scum can look for Scum. I don't think you are looking at the big picture here. Once again, look at the chain of events the way they went down. Once you showed up with a post on VE, BL shows up with a 19 minutes later with a post calling out a Scum team of VE, Forumite and phagga. His next post after that is calling out Sbrubbles as Scum. He even tries to throw me in there and says me and Sbrubbles must be talking in QT. That's 5 players in not even a quarter of a day that he calls out before Zentor is even flipped and you want to believe he was actually Scum hunting. Seriously this is very simple: If he truly believed Zentor was Town and he is also Town then why would he focus his efforts on calling out 5 other players instead of saving Zentor? He had ample time. He also should know that calling 5 players out isn't going to lead to all of them voting for whoever he thinks is Scum. This was a feigned attempt to look like he was defending a player and attempting to find Scum when he did neither. I feel like his town Zentor read was a gut read, and, frankly, Zentor himself wasn't resisting the lynch, so it was hard to defend him. I would argue that Bluelightz's intentions were simply to not let the discussion die out. Just because there's a good candidade is in place, it doesn't mean we should cease talking. I don't agree with his reads nor how he pushes them, but I don't think he's scum. He's being erratic, but, unlike Zentor, he's being much more accusative. Like I said in my previous post's about this topic: I tried to stop the Zentor train but everyone never bothered to read his meta or believe me. Could you answer my question about Ace? Also, who would list as your top 3 scum candidates?
Zentor's meta is irrelevant. If he does scummy things we don't go "thats just his meta" and ignore it. That isn't even a real defense of the guy. Like seriously is anyone fucking reading around here? On one hand we have people saying he tried to keep the discussion going by naming a bunch of other suspects, on the other he says he tried to stop the Zentor train by informing us about his meta.
It can't be both.
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On April 28 2012 05:28 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 04:38 strongandbig wrote:
(b), however, is where I get a bit suspicious. Even though I can understand the motivation of wanting to stay alive, it seems like a mini like this one where something like half the players are known mafia veterans would be the worst one to start a conscious change in meta as a townie. First, it's bound to raise suspicion unnecessarily from players who are known good readers of meta. Second, even if a domineering and very active town style tends to attract mafia guns in normal games, in a game like this one where there's plenty of veteran targets, it seems odd to be so worried about getting killed quickly - especially when VE himself has posted about how stacked this town is and how he couldn't be a leader in it. Third, and related to the first two, VE should have known that he would be making himself an easy vote park for scum by changing up his playstyle on purpose.
I think this is an excellent point. I'm at work right now, and may not last the night, but I'm fairly convinced VE is scum. I'm pretty sure that other than defending himself, he has done absolutely nothing for a long time. I'm also not married to my DT check on Ace. His play this game reeks of scum.
Give me some deodorant if you're so confident.
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He didn't do both, I'm not saying they are mutually exclusive. For the 4000th time can you go back and READ the post where I outlined this?
I think when he says "read Zentor's meta, he is Town" you guys count that as a defense when I see it as him just feigning defense and then just pop out 5 names as suspects.
Go back, read the case I made. Then go back and read that part of the thread again to see how things progressed. If I'm wrong then show me and we can talk about it. I get the feeling people are literally ignoring my posts and not even trying to see where I'm coming from here.
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EPT
