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On April 02 2012 01:56 layabout wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 01:51 VisceraEyes wrote:On April 02 2012 01:46 syllogism wrote:On April 02 2012 00:57 VisceraEyes wrote:
Syllo you're looking bad. I'm thinking about Popping you bro. What do you think about that? Feel free, and in the process explain as to why you think so and why a "secondary" voting system is bad As it's been discussed already, there's no guarantee everyone would follow suit (regardless of alignment) and we can't just punish people who don't participate (because there's no guarantee that they're scum.) We can't force people to participate, and all it's going to do is cause confusion. The voting mechanic is confusing enough without adding ANOTHER mechanic into the game. You don't agree? Can't we just vote on whether or not to follow it? If enough people (let's say 2/3rds (13 players)) agree then everyone else would have to agree to follow it. If anybody decides to go against the town's will then we can incinerate them 
But the thing is that we will be policy lynching them. Both scum/town might go against the town's will. I'd rather not policy lynch someone based on refusing to go with the majority of the town. If 2/3 of the players agree and we lynch everyone who don't agree, that would be policy lynching 1/3 of the players for not following the plan. This plan will not work too well unless EVERY SINGLE PLAYER participates in it.
On April 01 2012 20:52 Dirkzor wrote:
Weird claim by BM. Believing it would make myself or Zentor scum i guess? So lets kill zentor? =)
I don't understand why you would use your power now when you could have used it later to give so much more information.
I don't think we should push anyone to the item and back. It could be worthless and as people have already said it removes reponsibility from the people doing the pushing/pulling. I find it odd that palmar wants to go for the item.
Prplhz: How did you come the conclusion that Snarfs was in anyway confirmed town?!?! Mod confirmed makes even less sense then you just calling him confirmed town?!
Dirkzor, mind explaining why you find it odd that palmar wants to go for the item?
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I suggest players update the positions manually too while doing their actions. Something like
#Pull abc
abc from position 18 -> 19.
This makes it easier to keep track of which action is deciding or not. As you can see, there's some confusion about Bill's position change.
It also makes it easier to prevent abuse. Oops I accidentally popped palmar over the edge as i didn't know he was already at position 25 blah blah. We don't want to waste stupid time arguing whether it was an accident or not.
So, for example
##pull: palmar
Palmar should move from p19->p20
Simple roleclaim check. Also option of letting palmar get item still available. Personally, I view letting him get item as last resort. Not the best use of PoPs, but better than nothing.
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Current positions - Day 1
24.[Item] [___________]
23.[___________] [___________]
22.[___________] [___________]
21.[___________] [___________]
20.[___________] [___________]
19.[Palmar] [___________]
18.[___________] [___________]
17.[Mr.Wiggles] [___________]
16.[cascades] [Nemesis]
15. [Dirkzor] [Mr.Zentor]
14.[VisceraEyes] [Bill Murray]
13.[Snarfs][___________]
12.[wherebugsgo][prplhz]
11. [Acrofales][___________]
10.[Mattchew] [Tobon]
9. [layabout] [___________]
8. [Bluelightz][Sbrubbles]
7. [risk.nuke][syllogism]
6. [Cephiro][___________]
5. [___________][___________]
4. [___________][___________]
3. [___________] [___________]
2. [___________] [___________]
1. [___________] [___________]
PoPs - Day 1
+ Show Spoiler +
Mr.Wiggles
Bluelightz
VisceraEyes
risk.nuke
Sbrubbles
Dirkzor
Mattchew
Snarfs
Cephiro
Tobon
wherebugsgo
layabout
syllogism
Mr.Zentor
prplhz
Acrofales
Bill Murray
cascades
Palmar
Nemesis
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On April 02 2012 02:10 Nemesis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 01:56 layabout wrote:On April 02 2012 01:51 VisceraEyes wrote:On April 02 2012 01:46 syllogism wrote:On April 02 2012 00:57 VisceraEyes wrote:
Syllo you're looking bad. I'm thinking about Popping you bro. What do you think about that? Feel free, and in the process explain as to why you think so and why a "secondary" voting system is bad As it's been discussed already, there's no guarantee everyone would follow suit (regardless of alignment) and we can't just punish people who don't participate (because there's no guarantee that they're scum.) We can't force people to participate, and all it's going to do is cause confusion. The voting mechanic is confusing enough without adding ANOTHER mechanic into the game. You don't agree? Can't we just vote on whether or not to follow it? If enough people (let's say 2/3rds (13 players)) agree then everyone else would have to agree to follow it. If anybody decides to go against the town's will then we can incinerate them But the thing is that we will be policy lynching them. Both scum/town might go against the town's will. I'd rather not policy lynch someone based on refusing to go with the majority of the town. If 2/3 of the players agree and we lynch everyone who don't agree, that would be policy lynching 1/3 of the players for not following the plan. This plan will not work too well unless EVERY SINGLE PLAYER participates in it. Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 20:52 Dirkzor wrote:
Weird claim by BM. Believing it would make myself or Zentor scum i guess? So lets kill zentor? =)
I don't understand why you would use your power now when you could have used it later to give so much more information.
I don't think we should push anyone to the item and back. It could be worthless and as people have already said it removes reponsibility from the people doing the pushing/pulling. I find it odd that palmar wants to go for the item.
Prplhz: How did you come the conclusion that Snarfs was in anyway confirmed town?!?! Mod confirmed makes even less sense then you just calling him confirmed town?! Dirkzor, mind explaining why you find it odd that palmar wants to go for the item?
well not quite, the other 3rd would be able to chose between following the town's will or saying "screw you town" and getting themselves killed. The only people that would be killed would be people that point blank refuse to act as town agrees. In other words the only people that would die would be people that had chosen to.
I for one think we should have an secondary voting system!
I presume that we would vote for who we want to lynch and we would then collectively perform pushes and pulls to reflect our decision.
This will give us more control over who to kill. If we settle for free for all PoP-ing then the game mechanics could play a big part in who gets lynched and that may not reflect the decision reached by the majority of town. Additionally if we get organised and decide we want to kill players "X, Y and Z" then with a secondary voting system we can coordinate our PoP's to lynch them. It also means that players that have used their PoP's can still make meaningful contributions that they can be held accountable through their vote.
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So cascade's pull happened. Palmar's role is confirmed, although his alignment is still unknown.
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I'm glad to see everybody is so busy scumhunting today! For the record, is being for the secondary vote scummy or townie? Just so I know, because honestly I cannot use pro or contra the voting system in any useful way as a scumtell.
MrZentor: I think you're basically right. Pushing (or actually pulling) Palmar (or anyone for that matter) is atm a high risk, low reward situation and we'd be stupid to do it. Atm the only reason to push someone right to the edge is because we want to lynch him.
Therefore, anybody proposing to get the item is scum.
Cascade, Nemesis, Palmar, Layabout and Mr.Wiggles: why are you pushing a scum agenda?
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On April 02 2012 03:12 Acrofales wrote:
I'm glad to see everybody is so busy scumhunting today! For the record, is being for the secondary vote scummy or townie? Just so I know, because honestly I cannot use pro or contra the voting system in any useful way as a scumtell.
MrZentor: I think you're basically right. Pushing (or actually pulling) Palmar (or anyone for that matter) is atm a high risk, low reward situation and we'd be stupid to do it. Atm the only reason to push someone right to the edge is because we want to lynch him.
Therefore, anybody proposing to get the item is scum.
Cascade, Nemesis, Palmar, Layabout and Mr.Wiggles: why are you pushing a scum agenda?
Don't forget about me... i would like to see palmar get the item. if someone pushes him off (and he flips town) they sky rocket themselves to the top of my scumlist and should just be killed anyway.
My question is why are people so afraid of giving palmar an extra power
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Oh I get it. Lets have a vote about whether or not we should be voting about having a secondary voting system. This is crazy?
Lets just play the game with the mechanics that are already there. People have to use their PoP's in a way they themself find good. And if that mean they are wasting their PoP's left and right so be it.
I found it odd that palmar wants to go for the item because I usually agree very much with his logic and in this case I don't. That and that he is nominating himself without explaining why it should be him in the first place or why we should even get the item.
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Mattchew: A better question is why do people want to give him more power?
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Okay, the other stuff that happened today: BillMurray's roleclaim. Aside from appearing to me an incredibly stupid thing to do, can we believe it? I have never played with BM before, so someone who has some meta-knowledge of him: does he always do stupid roleclaims on D1 and if so, are they believable?
Additionally, he's wrong, because he didn't jump over Snarfs. He didn't even jump over VE.
Here's starting positions: + Show Spoiler [starting positions] +24.[Item] [___________]
23.[___________] [___________]
22.[___________] [___________]
21.[___________] [___________]
20.[___________] [___________]
19.[___________] [___________]
18.[Palmar] [___________]
17.[Mr.Wiggles] [___________]
16.[cascades] [Nemesis]
15. [Dirkzor] [Mr.Zentor]
14.[VisceraEyes][___________]
13.[Snarfs] [Bill Murray]
12.[wherebugsgo][prplhz]
11. [Acrofales][___________]
10.[Mattchew] [Tobon]
9. [layabout] [___________]
8. [Bluelightz][Sbrubbles]
7. [risk.nuke][syllogism]
6. [Cephiro][___________]
5. [___________][___________]
4. [___________][___________]
3. [___________] [___________]
2. [___________] [___________]
1. [___________] [___________]
And after he claimed to have done his ability:+ Show Spoiler [after] +24.[Item] [___________]
23.[___________] [___________]
22.[___________] [___________]
21.[___________] [___________]
20.[___________] [___________]
19.[___________] [___________]
18.[Palmar] [___________]
17.[Mr.Wiggles] [___________]
16.[cascades] [Nemesis]
15. [Dirkzor] [Mr.Zentor]
14.[VisceraEyes] [Bill Murray]
13.[Snarfs][___________]
12.[wherebugsgo][prplhz]
11. [Acrofales][___________]
10.[Mattchew] [Tobon]
9. [layabout] [___________]
8. [Bluelightz][Sbrubbles]
7. [risk.nuke][syllogism]
6. [Cephiro][___________]
5. [___________][___________]
4. [___________][___________]
3. [___________] [___________]
2. [___________] [___________]
1. [___________] [___________]
He has moved 1 spot (being first or second in a queue slot makes no difference) and not jumped over anybody. So his claim is bullshit.
He is either lying or completely misunderstanding his ability. In either case, I am in favour of teaching people to stop doing useless roleclaims on D1 and am therefore in favour of lynching BillMurray together with all the lurkers.
For those twits who think a vote system will help, I will post:
##vote BillMurray
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On April 02 2012 03:21 Dirkzor wrote:
Mattchew: A better question is why do people want to give him more power?
because
a. because if he's town he has a greater chance of using the power well then almost anyone else in the game
b. he's already closest which means he will tie up the fewest PoPs
c. It will be a great help creating a read on him
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On April 02 2012 03:16 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 03:12 Acrofales wrote:
I'm glad to see everybody is so busy scumhunting today! For the record, is being for the secondary vote scummy or townie? Just so I know, because honestly I cannot use pro or contra the voting system in any useful way as a scumtell.
MrZentor: I think you're basically right. Pushing (or actually pulling) Palmar (or anyone for that matter) is atm a high risk, low reward situation and we'd be stupid to do it. Atm the only reason to push someone right to the edge is because we want to lynch him.
Therefore, anybody proposing to get the item is scum.
Cascade, Nemesis, Palmar, Layabout and Mr.Wiggles: why are you pushing a scum agenda? Don't forget about me... i would like to see palmar get the item. if someone pushes him off (and he flips town) they sky rocket themselves to the top of my scumlist and should just be killed anyway. My question is why are people so afraid of giving palmar an extra power
You're confirmed scum in my book anyway after last game, but sure.
Add your name to the list 
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On April 02 2012 03:27 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 03:21 Dirkzor wrote:
Mattchew: A better question is why do people want to give him more power? because a. because if he's town he has a greater chance of using the power well then almost anyone else in the game b. he's already closest which means he will tie up the fewest PoPs c. It will be a great help creating a read on him
If he's town, mafia is either going to make sure they have a way of killing him, or they're not going to contribute at all (or as little as possible), thereby keeping all their pops for the actual lynch, increasing the chance of a townie getting lynched.
He's closest, but still eats up 6 pulls and 4 pushes to get him in there and out safely (well 5 pulls now that cascade has used his)
How is giving someone who is not confirmed anything an item going to help us get a read on him? Here's from the OP:
Only the player that landed on that item position will know what item they recieved.
So how does this help anybody?
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On April 01 2012 18:41 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 16:49 Bill Murray wrote:
I can move up to 3 spaces, and when I do, if anyone in the lines I'm moving are scum, I can't move. I moved on a line with VE (he's not scum), and had to go through snarf (he's not scum) The position chart indicates you started next to snarf; can you verify that your power clears him too? This seems like a typical bm day 1 claim so there is little reason to doubt you other than the fact the power seems very strong.
The mod told me it cleared snarf and VE
It's a one time use
I'm a townie from now on
I could have used it to potentially clear more people, but if there were any scum I wouldn't make my jump, so I didn't want to risk doing 3 lines. I was content with 2 people.
If one was scum, we have a 50/50 lynch
snarfs and VE AREN'T scum.
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On April 02 2012 03:18 Dirkzor wrote:
Oh I get it. Lets have a vote about whether or not we should be voting about having a secondary voting system. This is crazy?
Lets just play the game with the mechanics that are already there. People have to use their PoP's in a way they themself find good. And if that mean they are wasting their PoP's left and right so be it.
I found it odd that palmar wants to go for the item because I usually agree very much with his logic and in this case I don't. That and that he is nominating himself without explaining why it should be him in the first place or why we should even get the item.
Trying to find a way to use the game mechanics to town's advantage is not something that can support, FU town
Dirkzor less semantics more reasons please
On April 02 2012 01:42 layabout wrote:+ Show Spoiler [snip] +We are using the incinerate to kill people right?
If we want to push people off of the edge then it might be best to follow some sort of organised item grabbing move first, just in case the person we decide to kill gets the Teleportation device and swaps with somebody we do not wish to kill.
If we decide on trying to grab the item it would then make more sense to implement a secondary voting system since so many push/pulls would be being used without having to be justified.
On April 02 2012 03:12 Acrofales wrote:+ Show Spoiler [snip] +I'm glad to see everybody is so busy scumhunting today! For the record, is being for the secondary vote scummy or townie? Just so I know, because honestly I cannot use pro or contra the voting system in any useful way as a scumtell.
MrZentor: I think you're basically right. Pushing (or actually pulling) Palmar (or anyone for that matter) is atm a high risk, low reward situation and we'd be stupid to do it. Atm the only reason to push someone right to the edge is because we want to lynch him. Therefore, anybody proposing to get the item is scum.Cascade, Nemesis, Palmar, Layabout and Mr.Wiggles: why are you pushing a scum agenda?
???
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here's a better worded claim
I swing and latch onto a player
if there are no scum in my way, I will be propelled one space
I chose to latch onto VE
I swung to his line, I had to progress THROUGH snarfs, at which point both checked to see if they were town or scum
if scum, I wouldnt move (either of them, and I wouldn't know, other than 1 of them is)
if town, I'd moved
I moved; they're town
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I'd also like to note I jumped TOWARDS the fire
why would mafia do that?
/wifom
I considered latching onto Tobon, but that would have meant it'd check like 5 people, and I didn't want to risk there not being 20% likely scum (1/4 are scum, so 5 would be dumb) 2 seemed pretty safe, and lo and behold, I was right
we have 3 clear town in my eyes
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Ok Layabout, your posting is a bit contradictory.
Here you say:
On April 02 2012 01:34 layabout wrote:
Getting the item:
Going after the item would tie up a lot of the PoP's. Whilst there is a danger to the person being sent to get the item, anybody that pushed them over would likely be killed for doing so and so it would offer a 1:1 trade which would be good for town. If scum happen to have a hidden PoP then we risk losing the item, a townie and the PoP's for no gain.
This seemed to me pro-item-getting. In your follow-up you amended that. Fine, take yourself off the list, although I don't much like wishy washy behaviour.
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On April 02 2012 03:42 Bill Murray wrote:
I'd also like to note I jumped TOWARDS the fire
why would mafia do that?
/wifom
I considered latching onto Tobon, but that would have meant it'd check like 5 people, and I didn't want to risk there not being 20% likely scum (1/4 are scum, so 5 would be dumb) 2 seemed pretty safe, and lo and behold, I was right
we have 3 clear town in my eyes
Okay, it makes more sense now. In my eyes we have still cleared 0 town as I have no reason to believe you at this point. But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.
For those keeping track:
##unvote
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On April 02 2012 03:46 Acrofales wrote:Ok Layabout, your posting is a bit contradictory. Here you say: Show nested quote +On April 02 2012 01:34 layabout wrote:
Getting the item:
Going after the item would tie up a lot of the PoP's. Whilst there is a danger to the person being sent to get the item, anybody that pushed them over would likely be killed for doing so and so it would offer a 1:1 trade which would be good for town. If scum happen to have a hidden PoP then we risk losing the item, a townie and the PoP's for no gain.
This seemed to me pro-item-getting. In your follow-up you amended that. Fine, take yourself off the list, although I don't much like wishy washy behaviour.
Maybe you can explain why you think my behaviour is "wishy washy" and why that is relevant.
How is what i have written "pro item getting"?
Somebody (bugs?) mentioned that it would be easy for scum to kill the person going after the item. I have written that if they do that they would either face a 1:1 trade or a free kill (if they have a hidden PoP like in Death factory). I also wrote that getting the item woud require a lot of PoP's.
Please point out where the pro item getting part is.
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EPT
