Aperture Mafia - Page 2

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 19 2012 23:12 GMT

#1160

On March 20 2012 08:09 Jayjay54 wrote:

you misunderstood. he was killed by him.

I also shot Sinani who is still alive. so he's either bulletproof (third party with item or whatever) or he was protected or he is a vet.

I don't really see a reason for him to have been protected. Let's see what he claims.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 20 2012 21:30 GMT

#1252

Sorry for not being around the last 24 hours. I've had assignments due, and have been generally busy.

I want to ask, Kita, have you been reading the thread? Drazerk said that he used an item on me that said I'm not third party, which actually turned out to be one of his role abilities. So, I wouldn't fight against it, because it says I'm not third party, not that I'm scum. Next, my reads on a lot of people right now aren't very strong, simply due to the nature of the game. For each person, I need to decide whether they're town, third-party, Sleeper Cell, or Mafia (who I assume exist). People can get away with a lot of weird things in this game, just because of the confusion inherent to it. Also, that post was made after day 1, so a lot of my reads will still be mixed. I list the good and the bad things with people, because they are there. Then you have to make a judgement call of whether the bad things make them scummy, or the good things make them town. Using the Gonzaw example, I said I had a town read on him, but he was spamming the thread, which is bad. Spamming the thread doesn't make him mafia, though, so I'm not sure why you try to make it seem that way.

Anyways, I'm going to read over the thread some more, and hopefully decide who I want to lynch.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 20 2012 22:05 GMT

#1256

On March 21 2012 06:47 kitaman27 wrote:

Show nested quote +

But that's not how the series of events unfolded. Draz didn't claim third party until later in the game. At that point, we only knew that he shot VE and that his kill flavor could possibly point to the barlog. Either way, if you're town and Draz is posting that he has used an item to determine that he has a different alignment than you, why does it take 24 hours for you to be voting for him?

Show nested quote +

I haven't seen you call anyone scum yet, which is strange 100 hours into the game.

I didn't think he was town. He also claimed to have checked Velinath as either the same as him or a DT, which made no sense. So, I didn't see the need of arguing against it, when it's an unconfirmed parity check from someone who's probably not town.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 21 2012 06:47 GMT

#1334

On March 21 2012 14:51 kitaman27 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Nothing?

Show nested quote +

Does it take three days?

My comp. sci. assignment is taking a lot longer than I though it would. Basically, reading through filters, I think ghost_403 is scum. He started the silliness of saying Wheatley would betray the town, and he flip-flopped weirdly on both his reads of Drazerk and Dirk, when the lynch turned out to be going onto Draz and not Dirk. Looks like he wanted to just blend in.

I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time to put into the game tonight, or post a more thorough case.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 21 2012 13:27 GMT

#1354

I'll pretend I didn't see that if you don't call yourself confirmed town. I'll see if I can post my complete thoughts on ghost_403 before I go to school.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 21 2012 13:50 GMT

#1358

Ok, I'm not going to have time to completely finish this, but this is what I wrote. It's pretty straight-forward, so you should be able to see the same things, just read his filter. I think ghost_403 is likely scum. A couple other people pointed him out in the thread, and I noticed the same things when I read his filter.

The first thing I notice right off the bat, is that he's the one who started the silliness about Wheatley changing win conditions.

On March 18 2012 00:55 ghost_403 wrote:
Just my thoughts on the Wheatly role:

I'm not ever going to trust Wheatly. IIRC, Wheatly screws over Chell in Portal 2 by taking control of Aperture, despite his best intentions. I can see this going the same way. Wheatly begins the game by helping the town, then gets a new wincon where he has to kill us all or something.

The reason this is scummy, is because it has no basis in the game, and is completely based on external flavour. So, it serves only to:

1)Spread distrust
2)Cause pointless discussion and distract from the game
3) Be pointless

Then he flip-flops on his reads. I'll try to post more when I get back. =/

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 21 2012 21:26 GMT

#1416

On March 22 2012 01:48 kitaman27 wrote:
I also dislike ghost_403 as a lynch candidate today. I don't think there is a very good case at all for him to be considered.

How do you know the case if bad, when I haven't even posted it? :p

I'll write it up, but with only an hour and a half left in the day, I'll probably switch my vote to one of the major candidates.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 21 2012 22:27 GMT

#1424

Between Bluelightz and Dirk, the latter looks significantly more town than the other.

After Day 1, Dirk's been posting pretty openly, and has actually been sharing reads of his own volition. This reflects well on him for now, and I don't feel good killing him today. If he doesn't continue following through with his reads on day 3 though, he could be a good choice for a day 4 lynch or night 3 shot. It's the same thing with a lot of players who open strongly, but don't actually push their scum reads on subsequent days. Just watch. If he's consistent, he's most likely town. Right now, I'm leaning town on him.

The game I remember best from playing or observing Bluelightz, is Purgatory Mafia. In that game, I pegged him down as town pretty early in the game, simply due to the attitude and tone of his posts. I'm not getting the same feeling in this game. (For reference: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=235418). In that game, his reasons for his reads were actually based on his own reasoning, and for game reasons. In this game, the reasons for a lot of his reads are nonsensical, or attributed to the reasoning of others. As well, I feel he is not being as open with what he is posting, which seems to indicate that something is off about him.

So, overall, I think Bluelightz is the better lynch between the two.

##Vote: Bluelightz

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 21 2012 22:43 GMT

#1430

On March 22 2012 07:39 Grackaroni wrote:
@Wiggles : you do realize that Dirk = Palmar right?

Yes, and?

On March 21 2012 22:27 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
I'll pretend I didn't see that if you don't call yourself confirmed town. I'll see if I can post my complete thoughts on ghost_403 before I go to school.

I'm going to treat him like Dirk, and then only really use meta if it helps my read, or Dirk starts wanting to be Palmar. From how I've read, it looks like he wants to try a different way of playing, so I'm not going to take that away.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 21 2012 23:15 GMT

#1441

On March 22 2012 08:14 Jayjay54 wrote:

Show nested quote +

aaaaaw <3

Friend?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 21 2012 23:53 GMT

#1453

So, I'm going to actually write out why I believe ghost_403 is scum.

Someone said that he actually wasn't the first one to bring up the possible changing wheatley win condition, but my point still stands, and even changes a bit now.
+ Show Spoiler +

His post was phrased in a way that I thought he was the first one to bring it up. However, it turns out he wasn't, so then this post still looks weird. It's still baseless, and still useless, but the thought isn't even original now. This post contributes nothing to the discussion, and it still spreads distrust of the Wheatley role, before we even have any idea what it does.

As well, I don't think the discussion on Wheatley changing victory conditions has any merit. We can't be 100% sure that Velinath was town to begin with, no matter how much we think so, so we need to continue scrutinizing him as the game goes on. So, him changing his victory condition, is no different than him being scum maintaining a well made facade, that only crumbles on later days. The point is that he only shows his scummy colours later into the game. The situations are analogous, so the Wheatley conjecture was a complete waste of time. Discussing it was just making posts that look like they're contributing, while they provide nothing at all.

Next, is the flip-flopping on Drazerk and Dirk. Normally, I don't consider flip-flopping to be a scum-tell, and being on the Draz lynch doesn't make someone town, the same as being off it doesn't make them scum (depending on the reasons given). However, the way ghost_403 flip-flopped makes it look like he was worried about blending in to the crowd.

He makes these posts, saying that he doesn't want to lynch Draz, but instead Dirk:
+ Show Spoiler +

On March 18 2012 00:24 ghost_403 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Eventually. As of right now, he's no danger to the town. His roleclaim has told us that we don't really need to listen to him, and now that we have his death-flavor/whatever, we'll know when he kills people. If he starts killing townies, we lynch him. Otherwise, I think we should leave him alone and concentrate on finding people who are a threat to the town.

On March 18 2012 01:13 ghost_403 wrote:
Drazerk never had to claim. Clearly, he didn't think that he was a threat to the town, at least for the time being. Focusing on lynching him out of the game right now is counterproductive. Today, we need to be more concerned about electing a Wheatly and finding a good lynch, rather than focus on some neutered third party.

##elect velinath because he seems to understand this.

On March 18 2012 01:30 ghost_403 wrote:
@JJ - I agree with you that Drazerk is a safe lynch, but I don't think it's optimal town play. Saying 16hrs into Day 1 that we should lynch a third party because it's safe discourages discussion about possible lynches. Because of that, even though you are right, I am going to say that I will not vote Drazerk today. Eventually, he will have to go, but as for right now we need to focus on scum.

As for your second point that a newb would be a safer Wheatly vote, I don't know how I feel about that. That just screams to the scum to push a newb on their team for the position, which makes then as dangerous, maybe even more dangerous, as a veteran. Right now, Velinath seems like a better option to me, but I reserve the right to change my vote is someone better comes to light.

On March 18 2012 22:06 ghost_403 wrote:
I still don't think Drazerk is scum. By claiming his role, he's put a timer on himself. It's not a question of if we'll lynch him, it's a question of when. He's got until then to kill Gandalf and get out of the game. In addition, he's removed his ability to persuade the town on any votes. We're not going to listen to him. At best, he's third party.

Drazerk is a safe lynch. Let's leave him alone for the time being, and focus on finding scum.

I'm going to take a minute or two to read up and weigh in on a Dirk lynch.

On March 18 2012 22:13 ghost_403 wrote:
I think we could do a lot worse than lynching Dirk. He's either a lazy/useless townie or scum. I'm running out the door at the moment, so I'll put some more thought into it when I get back.

These posts are all consistent. Also, notice that he's saying Dirk is the better lynch, even after he knows that Drazerk is third-party. There's nothing wrong with this intrinsically, but what follows makes ghost_403 look pretty scummy to me.

After the lynch looks like it's pretty set on Drazerk, and Draz begins his rampage through the thread, this is when ghost_403 decides to hop onto the wagon:

On March 19 2012 01:38 ghost_403 wrote:
Sigh.

I try to lynch insane play, and it turns out he's a townie. (last game)

I try not to lynch insane play, and he admits to being scum.

Just can't win.

##vote: Drazerk

And he turns around on his read on Dirk:

On March 20 2012 05:59 ghost_403 wrote:
A quick note for Nisani and Maverick: There was no good reason for me to post on why I though Dirk was scummy when I got back. When I returned to the thread, Draz had gone off the deepend, and needed to go IMO. When Draz was a neutral third party, I didn't see the point in offing him; he's just going to sit around and ignore us for the most part. Then, he tells us that he's starting to help the sleeper cell. That's when he changed from neutral to dangerous, and that's why I switched a vote.

As far as my thoughts on Dirk: not impressed, but not ready to lynch him. A few of his posts have been aggressive and poorly thought out. For example, this one, where he says we should lynch anyone who was not immediately on board the Draz lynch. That's terrible play for a lot of reasons. Right now, I'm leaning stupid aggressive townie as opposed to scum, but I'm willing to change my positions if he does something really stupid. If he got vig'd, I'd say no big loss.

ghost_403 was still ready to lynch someone else instead of Drazerk, even after he claimed third party, and never gave any indication that he thought that Dirk was a bad lynch, or that Drazerk was a better one until these posts. Interesting to note, is the timing of these posts. These come only after many people all decided to hop onto the Drazerk lynch, and others, notably active posters like JayJay and Gonzaw, said in the last few pages that they didn't like the Dirk lynch. More than anything, this looks like someone who was trying to push a view-point, but seeing that not many people supported it, and others actively thought the opposite, he decided to jump ship and flip-flop in order to hide in the crowd. There is no intermediate reasoning for either of his changes in reads, only a complete turnaround on both of them, that seems to come out of thin air. This tells me that ghost_403 is conscious of sticking out, and wants to remain hidden, which suggests that he is scum, and even further, likely third-party or sleeper cell.

That's my reasoning for thinking that ghost_403 is scum, and was a good lynch for day 2. Like I said, I was busy, so I didn't have time to write this all up yesterday, and only had something like 15-20 minutes of free time this morning.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 21 2012 23:55 GMT

#1454

Also, does anyone know what the companion cube is/does? Is that a role mechanic? Based on Bluelightz' flip, it could be scum.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 23 2012 02:23 GMT

#1601

The watcher results imply that one of Velinath or Dirk are a PGO, unless it was a third person, but that seems kind've unlikely. I can't decide who between those two would be more probable, though, as they would both be very likely to attract multiple power roles.

They should claim now if they are a PGO. I actually find it pretty scummy that they didn't claim before-hand either. In a set-up that's going to have a high concentration of blues, not claiming that you'll kill everyone who visits you is just asking for a lot of people (including multiple townies) to die, especially if you're someone who's high profile, like Dirk or Velinath after he was elected.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 23 2012 03:25 GMT

#1611

On March 23 2012 11:29 Velinath wrote:
sorry ghost, I guess I missed it.

@Wiggles I already stated that I have no powers that activate on someone visiting me, 1 or 2 pages ago. I assume that's what a PGO is.

Ok, then I want to see what Dirk claims. I can't really see anyone besides one of you two attracting 3 people on night 1, so if he claims he doesn't kill visitors, then we most likely have a liar between the two of you. If anyone else has ideas for what might have killed them, I'm all ears.

For reference:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Paranoid_Gun_Owner

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 23 2012 04:11 GMT

#1614

On March 23 2012 12:54 MidnightGladius wrote:
If Maverick watched Dirk last night and lived, then Dirk can't be a PGO.

Ok, so Nisani says he watched Velinath, for some reason I thought he tracked. That rules out Velinath being a PGO. Maverick, did you watch Dirk, or did you track Willz? You didn't specify in your post. If you watched Dirk, then that rules out a PGO, though I'm not sure what other roles would kill multiple people like that.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 24 2012 01:46 GMT

#1669

On March 24 2012 00:52 ghost_403 wrote:
I want to hear Mr. Wiggles weigh in on the Ghost/Nisani situation we have going on here.

He posts a case against me at the beginning of Night 2. I respond to his case. A bit later, Nisani chimes in calling me scum (page 80 for reference). Next page, Wiggles makes some general posts regarding watching/following whatever, and ignores my rebuttal and all of the Nisani/Ghost back and forth on the previous page. Strange, considering how he's been positive I'm scum since Day 2.

(If anyone's interested, I can reference posts, but I'm too lazy to do this right now. Ask and you shall receive.)

I feel better about you now after your response. Unlike your earlier posts, they actually give a reason for your massive swings in opinion. While I don't agree with your reasoning, you actually showed you had reasoning, and your actions are consistent with it. So, this explains the giant discontinuity for me. Also, you don't need to be more verbose in your posts, you just need to actually show continuity in your thoughts and explain why you've changed your mind if it's on something significant.

Nisani looks pretty bad to me, but I think Sinani looks worse. I'm still trying to decide though, but that's how I'm leaning. These two posts just look scummy as hell:

On March 20 2012 12:35 sinani206 wrote:
Hmmmm.... Jayjay, is your kill unblockable?

On March 21 2012 08:56 sinani206 wrote:
Jayjay, now that you're here, can you answer my question?

The two scenarios I have in mind, are that sinani is either telling the truth, and is town, or he's scum on a team with some kind of protection, or just scum and telling the truth about his item.

If he's town:
Why would you ask this question? The only reason would be if you had important info to drop on the thread if the shot was unblockable and you were going to die. The shot's already coming to you either way, so when it hits, you'll either live or you won't. From what I can see, JayJay never actually answers his question. However, Sinani doesn't drop any info on the thread. He doesn't claim results, he doesn't give all his reads, he doesn't do anything at all, but act like the shot never existed. This doesn't' make sense from a town perspective, especially after you ask if the shot will actually kill you or not, which means you're concerned about your death, and have some reason for needing to know.

If he's scum:
This question makes a lot more sense from a scum perspective given his follow-up. If scum have a medic, he wants to know if he can block the shot or not, because if it's unblockable there's no point using their protect there. If he just has an extra life as any kind of scum, he wants to know, because it could change how he acts, if he's trying to achieve a specific win condition, or simply so his team can plan around whether he lives or not. In either of these scenarios, his follow-up makes sense. There's no reason for him to give any sort of information to the thread, because it doesn't further his win condition. He just wants to know so he can either get his team to protect him, or plan around how much time he has alive. Either way, it's based off selfish reasons, and not reasons that have the best in mind for town.

I see this as pretty damning.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 24 2012 06:21 GMT

#1673

On March 24 2012 14:05 sinani206 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

On March 24 2012 10:46 Mr. Wiggles wrote:

Show nested quote +

The two scenarios I have in mind, are that sinani is either telling the truth, and is town, or he's scum on a team with some kind of protection, or just scum and telling the truth about his item.

I did claim shot and that my long fall boots protected me.
Also, Nisani is scum.
If he's town:
Why would you ask this question? The only reason would be if you had important info to drop on the thread if the shot was unblockable and you were going to die. The shot's already coming to you either way, so when it hits, you'll either live or you won't. From what I can see, JayJay never actually answers his question. However, Sinani doesn't drop any info on the thread. He doesn't claim results, he doesn't give all his reads, he doesn't do anything at all, but act like the shot never existed. This doesn't' make sense from a town perspective, especially after you ask if the shot will actually kill you or not, which means you're concerned about your death, and have some reason for needing to know.

If he's scum:
This question makes a lot more sense from a scum perspective given his follow-up. If scum have a medic, he wants to know if he can block the shot or not, because if it's unblockable there's no point using their protect there. If he just has an extra life as any kind of scum, he wants to know, because it could change how he acts, if he's trying to achieve a specific win condition, or simply so his team can plan around whether he lives or not. In either of these scenarios, his follow-up makes sense. There's no reason for him to give any sort of information to the thread, because it doesn't further his win condition. He just wants to know so he can either get his team to protect him, or plan around how much time he has alive. Either way, it's based off selfish reasons, and not reasons that have the best in mind for town.

I see this as pretty damning.

I did claim that I was shot and the long-fall boots protected me at the beginning of the day.

Also, I don't want to vote for myself, and as usual, I am one of the two major lynch candidates.

##Vote: Nisani201

What does that have to do with anything? The point is you were very concerned with whether JayJay's shot would go through protection, and when he never told you, you didn't follow it up in the same way I'd expect a townie to after asking something like that. That implies that you had an ulterior motive in asking that wasn't pro-town.

I'd like to hear from you, though. Why'd you ask JayJay that question? Not once, but twice.

##Vote: sinani206

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 24 2012 18:06 GMT

#1741

On March 25 2012 02:55 Nisani201 wrote:
Sbrubbles the item is given right at the daypost. If the item offers protection then that person would have to wait until the next night.

Just claim who you gave it to 1 minute or so before the day post. Then we know who has it; then mafia can't shoot them.

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 26 2012 04:05 GMT

#1941

Hey kita, why did you announce before your shot was actually supposed to hit that you were aiming at Dirk? Wouldn't that make your shot a lot less likely to go through, due to the possibility of having someone protect him?

Mr. Wiggles

Canada5894 Posts

March 26 2012 13:49 GMT

#1961

On March 26 2012 16:49 Jayjay54 wrote:
Ok guys, little sleep.

kitaman, if you don't come up with a nice explanation for why you visited gonzaw night one, you are the lord of th riiiiiift. However, if that's true, he seems to have no KP any more. Lynching third is prolly not the best option.

Other than that, "Mementoss" appeared in the QT. If that's really Mementoss and not an alias, dirk has made the most random choice ever. No help at all there. So if this IS Mementoss, I am fine with killing him.

I am willing to trust Nisani to a degree, however, I can't believe that he's still alive and scum killed yugi instead of the inventor. Spider-senses here.

What do you guys think?

@foolishness: only the title exists in english, I am in no mood to translate it all.

1) I think Nisani probably lived because after he claimed inventor, there was a decent possibility of a medic being on him. So, they shot a lower priority target instead. Also, if Nisani decided to change what he was making, they could very easily push a mislynch on him. One point for Nisani not being on the mafia team is that he actually gave the item to someone. If he was scum, because he was claiming after the deadline, he could very easily have given it to a team mate, and then claimed he had targeted one of the dead, flipped, town players.

2) If we don't want to lynch third party today, and we think Kita is third party, then we have to lynch him tomorrow. We can't let him get anywhere remotely near lylo, and judging on the numbers people have posted, it's looking like we're approaching some sort of 3 way stand-off. We can't let someone we think is third party get close to that, because he might try to act as a swing vote between town and mafia and the sleeper cell, to further his win condition. We also can't be sure if he's bullet-proof or not, so a lynch is the only way to kill him.

3) Inviting mementoss to his QT is very weird. It shows that it was pretty throwaway, and that he didn't really care that much about actually utilizing his role to the fullest. Could someone who was in the QT actually post what he talked to mementoss about? I'm interested to see, as it doesn't seem like he could use it best for collaboration with mementoss, because there were stronger players to invite, nor does he have to use it to judge if mementoss is scum or not, as he's more than capable of doing that in the thread. So, it seems more like it would be for manipulating mementoss, or just inviting him and not doing anything. Based on dirk's behaviour, he's very disinterested, and for Palmar, that's usually a sign of being scum.

I think Kita and Dirk are both fine lynches, and someone should shoot the other one tonight. Dirk inviting mementoss doesn't really say much about mementoss by itself to me. Maybe after dirk flips, it could be more revealing.

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