EPTNewbie Mini Mafia V - Page 26
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Jitsu
United States929 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
Out of all of you who voted for OtoshimonoU, try and put yourself in his shoes sometime as an innocent townie with everyone against you, Sufficiency by far was the more scummy player but everyone bandwagons too easily (myself included) on the easy lynch to try and feel useful. | ||
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Adam4167
Australia1426 Posts
Its common practice, so people cant just see one role and infer another exists because of its existence. Its a form of punishing bad play (making assumptions with flimsy reasoning). I can think of a couple games off hand where newbie towns have won. It largely comes down to town being active and not allowing mafia any control over the thread. GG, I didn't read this game very thoroughly, but it looked interesting enough that I will come back and give it a look after I finish Aperture. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On March 16 2012 11:51 willz22912 wrote: Eh, gonzaw, I think town did okay for what we had to work with, did you see how many town people were modkilled for being inactive? Then again, the fact that Sufficiency was able to coast for 4 days before getting lynched is really bad by town. Out of all of you who voted for OtoshimonoU, try and put yourself in his shoes sometime as an innocent townie with everyone against you, Sufficiency by far was the more scummy player but everyone bandwagons too easily (myself included) on the easy lynch to try and feel useful. Well, I don't really know how town did because I didn't really read this game >_> <_< I just skimmed the posts and saw that scum won  | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5262 Posts
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willz22912
United States255 Posts
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On March 16 2012 11:36 Sbrubbles wrote: Putting in a miller when there is no DT is dirty, though, kitaman.  If there is no DT doesn't the miller just become a normal townie. Hell, the miller doesn't even know they're a miller so its existence makes no difference to the game because no-one (no DT) would be relying on them being scum. If you inferred there had to be a DT when a miller flips, well that is just bad play. I think the reason scum are winning so many newbie games is that inactivity and "lurking" is used as a reason to lynch people. If most of the town is active it becomes much easier to identify scum. Townies who are scared to post are a real detriment, especially late game. I'm surprised there aren't more lurker-vigs in Newbie games. Yes you are more likely to hit town than scum (almost guaranteed) but at least you aren't wasting a lynch on a lurker. | ||
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Adam4167
Australia1426 Posts
The information gap between town and mafia cannot be closed as easily as it can in a non-newbie game, due to newer towns lacking the practice at extracting information and gauging reactions objectively. I still like the newbie game format as it provides a safe place without insane mechanics, where first gamers can develop the fundamentals, but the statistics tell the tale. I can only think of two town victories in newbie games, compared to the half dozen or more scum wins. Inactivity is an issue, but it does effect both sides. I think the best way to balance the scales is to provide an experience similar to Student Mafia with dedicated coaches that are assigned to players (as opposed to telling new players to seek out their own teachers) and possibly even the smurfing of a more experienced player, to guide the town in the right direction, but not rule the town. | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
As for coaches it would be awesome if there was something like a Day 1 coach whose role was to poke and prod people. To play devil's advocate and point out the commonly used bad logic in new games. Then they disappear at the first lynch. Hopefully that provides real life experience of good scum hunting techniques and sets town up well for the rest of the game. They wouldn't necessarily push particular reads but point out weaknesses in logic and try and correct misunderstandings. Individual coaches don't really work because they can't provide useful information, only general themes. Of course you could go all out and have a coach for each player who is allowed to provide their opinions of the reads to their protege. A sort of semi-team-melee setup but that is probably going a bit far. | ||
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Maverick32x
United States311 Posts
It is a GREAT way for me to spend time at my pretty boring job- and I love being able to analyze what people are typing and try to 'solve' things... any general tips for me? I felt like I was going a bit overboard a couple times and jumping to conclusions WAY too much... I also think I just had a lot of free time to really dig into everyone's posts.... | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On March 16 2012 12:14 Probulous wrote: If there is no DT doesn't the miller just become a normal townie. Hell, the miller doesn't even know they're a miller so its existence makes no difference to the game because no-one (no DT) would be relying on them being scum. If you inferred there had to be a DT when a miller flips, well that is just bad play. I think the reason scum are winning so many newbie games is that inactivity and "lurking" is used as a reason to lynch people. If most of the town is active it becomes much easier to identify scum. Townies who are scared to post are a real detriment, especially late game. I'm surprised there aren't more lurker-vigs in Newbie games. Yes you are more likely to hit town than scum (almost guaranteed) but at least you aren't wasting a lynch on a lurker. Lighten up! It was my first forum-based game here on TL. I don't know what passes as "normal" here. It's one thing to not know if a role exists. It's another thing completely for a host to mislead as to the existence of a role. I'm not saying it's good/bad fun/not fun, I'm just saying that the host purposefully throwing in a wrench in there simply wasn't on the radar for me, and mistrusting the host isn't obvious for first-timers. Also, I'm saying this from the viewpoint of a spectator. The DT point didn't actually matter while I was alive. | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On March 16 2012 12:57 Sbrubbles wrote: Lighten up! It was my first forum-based game here on TL. I don't know what passes as "normal" here. It's one thing to not know if a role exists. It's another thing completely for a host to mislead as to the existence of a role.1 I'm not saying it's good/bad fun/not fun, I'm just saying that the host purposefully throwing in a wrench in there simply wasn't on the radar for me, and mistrusting the host isn't obvious for first-timers. Also, I'm saying this from the viewpoint of a spectator. The DT point didn't actually matter while I was alive. Are you angry son? You're making a big call right here 1. I don't see how Kitaman mislead you at all. How exactly was he throwing in a wrench by adding a miller? To me it seems the roles were randomed. The only way Kitaman could have mislead you is if people assumed there was a DT when you flipped. This relies on town making assumptions they shouldn't make and has nothing to do with Kitaman. Can you explain your gripe a bit better? | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On March 16 2012 13:13 Probulous wrote: Are you angry son? You're making a big call right here 1. I don't see how Kitaman mislead you at all. How exactly was he throwing in a wrench by adding a miller? To me it seems the roles were randomed. The only way Kitaman could have mislead you is if people assumed there was a DT when you flipped. This relies on town making assumptions they shouldn't make and has nothing to do with Kitaman. Can you explain your gripe a bit better? It is clear now that the host made to miller in order to punish those who would see the miller flip as validation for the existence of a DT. To believe things exists for a purpose is normal in games, but now I understand it is not so in this TL forum mafia game. The miller exists to interfere with the DT, so there is no purpose in him existing without a DT, except as a tool for host to confuse the players who make these kinds of assumptions. | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On March 16 2012 13:30 Sbrubbles wrote: It is clear now that the host made to miller in order to punish those who would see the miller flip as validation for the existence of a DT. To believe things exists for a purpose is normal in games, but now I understand it is not so in this TL forum mafia game. The miller exists to interfere with the DT, so there is no purpose in him existing without a DT, except as a tool for host to confuse the players who make these kinds of assumptions. Ok, fair enough then. I agree that a miller in a newbie game is rare. I still think the roles were randomed and that it shouldn't have an effect on your play. If nothing else you have learned a valuable lesson, don't assume unreasonable stuff. I have played/read games with framers but no DT and similarly roleblockers with no blue roles. They are there to make it harder for both mafia and town to guess what roles exist in an open setup. Sure it makes the game a little harder but it also punishes bad play. If you are learning, that is what you want. I hope this doesn't turn you off from playing here. | ||
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jaj22
United Kingdom1376 Posts
Also the DT claim was worse than useless for town and therefore extremely suspicious. I felt it was a pretty good town performance to get it down to the wire with so many modkills and no blue help though. Practically a moral victory  | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On March 16 2012 13:37 Probulous wrote: Ok, fair enough then. I agree that a miller in a newbie game is rare. I still think the roles were randomed and that it shouldn't have an effect on your play. If nothing else you have learned a valuable lesson, don't assume unreasonable stuff. I have played/read games with framers but no DT and similarly roleblockers with no blue roles. They are there to make it harder for both mafia and town to guess what roles exist in an open setup. Sure it makes the game a little harder but it also punishes bad play. If you are learning, that is what you want. I hope this doesn't turn you off from playing here. No way, I'm sticking around for at least 1 or 2 bigger games . And yeah, I'll try to have a different outlook next time.I made a lot of mistakes, none of which mattered too much. Probably not letting town lynch Otoshi on day 1 and calling too much attention to myself (knowing I was a power role) were the only ones that made a difference, I think. Also, my misread on Dimmu might have influenced the final day (though I was long dead). | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On March 16 2012 13:45 jaj22 wrote: Bit disappointed that town didn't win this one. Dimmu made a mistake at the end there: Blubb reported Willz as green, and given that Willz subbed in for a lurker on night 1 he was very unlikely to be a godfather (scum pick the godfather). Therefore Dimmu should have been almost 100% sure who the last mafia was. Also the DT claim was worse than useless for town and therefore extremely suspicious. I felt it was a pretty good town performance to get it down to the wire with so many modkills and no blue help though. Practically a moral victory I thought the Godfather role was RNGed at the start of the game sometimes...? I've seen plenty of games outside TL (and some Insane/Themed ones in here too) where the GF is a normal role given to a specific mafia with their role PM. Maybe there are Normal games with it too. Also, I would say that the GF described in newbie games is this one as well. | ||
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MidnightGladius
China1214 Posts
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
...except I'm stupid and didn't read the OP. Yes, in this game the GF is chosen by mafia >_> | ||
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trackd00r
Chile284 Posts
I skimming through the obs QT I checked that I acted quite alike a DT. Why is that? I'd like to know because I don't want to get killed as town just because I looked blueish. I don't think i'll be able to play in some months though  | ||
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