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On February 23 2012 02:43 syllogism wrote:prplhz looks pretty awful. He doesn't really have many opinions of his own, asks a lot of questions and his posts are constructed in a way that makes it look like he is just filling space. He appears certain that redff isn't mafia, but also thinks he has to be lynched at some point. Just look at this postShow nested quote +Okay I don't think that redFF is scum because he's been pretty out there. The scummiest he has done in my opinion is his claim which was oddly timed. Right now he's a terribly easy lynch, because we'll have to lynch him at some point. I'd like to see wherebugsgo explain how everything redFF has done can be explained by scum motivation and can not be explained by town motivation. The worst thing about this whole redFF thing is that the lynch is so easy that everybody can just pile onto him and then the day is kinda ruined, we aren't going to find anybody else. I don't think that redFF is scum because he's just been putting himself too much in the line of fire. A lot of things are suspicious about this post, but just to name one he asserts that redff is an easy lynch and thus we "aren't going to find anybody else". That is complete nonsense and just seems filler. Him randomly assigning blame on wbg seems off too. He thinks redff is not scum, but hasn't even tried to find anyone else. The only thing he has going for him is his attack on bc, but considering he is just sheeping me and not pushing at all, that doesn't mean much. He hasn't bothered to post today and he has definitely been around but doesn't seem to care.
His point isn't the kind that I'd make, but it's understandable. He was right to call out WBG too, if WBG is going to say everything redFF has done is scummy despite defending him half the game (then falsely accusing me of doing the same) he should explain why.
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On February 23 2012 03:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 02:49 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 23 2012 02:43 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On February 23 2012 02:33 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 23 2012 02:22 Jitsu wrote:On February 22 2012 11:49 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 22 2012 11:44 Jitsu wrote:
I wouldn't roll with a BC lynch at the moment. He pretty much said exactly what I was thinking with the "role does not equal alignment." There is no defined set-up information, and it could be plausible that a tracker type would be on the mafia side. No?
Dirkzor
Cool case, brah. Would it be ok to say that chaoser is a red read to you, then? If not, who then?
He made one okay point therefore we shouldn't lynch him? I agree with it too. That doesn't mean anything really. BC is way better than this. He's playing negatively, passively, he's criticizing others for not contributing past the PL discussion but offers nothing to the thread himself. Yeah, RedFF could be faking it and the fact that he hasn't said a role name yet makes me suspect but I feel way stronger about BC with that last post of his now. The fact that I had the same idea is less about me agreeing with it and more about having the same train of thought. Did you read L? Everyone was making the same case about him in L, saying how he was causing more chaos then good, especially with revealing his role. Not comfortable with lynching him at this point. I could get down with a Dirkzor lynch. - non-committal early on, staying out of the spotlight for the most part. - says that chaoser is curious because he is "flippy floppy" - On February 21 2012 18:44 Dirkzor wrote:
RedFF's fast unvote of Tyrran was weird after he had pushed and defended his policy lynch so much.
Kita's vote on (policy?) Tyrran while attacking Toad for defending Tyrran while attacking RedFF for his history regarding policy lynches and then unvoting Tyrran to vote RedFF is weird. Don't know what I should think about it. I like that you can argue with someone while still having the same opinion but this just looks way to double sided.
I see no scummyness from Chaoser's town read on VE. Other people have done similarly things in this game. But chaoser as a whole is a bit flip floppy... This post makes just about zero sense to me. It's more of the same, with a bit of confusion as well. If I wanted to post something to make it look like a contribution, this would be it. - says he can't wrap his head around this game, then two posts later, claims chaoser as his primary scumread, and adds a [weak] case about how chaoser is scum. - doesn't even vote for chaoser, even though it's his target. Something is up. ##vote Dirkzor No, I'm completely unfamiliar with BC's meta other than a game I played with him as scum too long ago to remember. That game was a perfect victory for us too. Dirkzor has made some alarming posts but also some solid points against other players, I want to hear how he responds to criticism before I consider lynching him because I may just be misunderstanding or misreading him. On February 23 2012 02:26 Blazinghand wrote:
I still don't see what the problem is with lynching redFF at this point. He's never gonna get shot by the mafia if he's town just to make us sad, will get RBed or *And I think this is the case* he's just mafia and punched out this tracker claim since he's out of breathing room and will claim RB. So you sheep all game and then say it's okay to lynch town just because "mafia won't shoot him" night 1? How do you know what the mafia will do? WIFOM galore and lynching town is not okay. K, I know you are smarter than this or at the very least functionally literate, so I'm going to give you around 20 minutes to read the last 3 pages of the thread and realize why this isn't some dumb wifom shit, its an obvious end result of RedFF's dipshit scummy claim. It is WIFOM. I agree scum would probably not shoot redFF if he is town AND survives Day 1 considering he's distracting and an easy lynch target, but I don't agree that it's alright to lynch town. redFF's claim is stupid and I'm not sold on it considering he didn't even say a name with it and just dipped out immediately. They should roleblock him but I just don't like making arguments or lynches based on predicting what the mafia will do. I can think of countless times I've been scum and we've concocted to do the opposite of what town would expect, even make bad shots just to confuse people. Mafia is not a game played by machines that make the most efficient decisions and even if what he said is likely correct, it is not helpful. You just got bumped up a few priorities on my scum list congrats, you are now neck and neck with BC.
Okay.
If there is any reason scum won't shoot RoL, it'd be the fact that he seems to have quit the game and will probably get modkilled anyway.
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@Toades
Have some balls. A big reason scum lost Insane Mafia was because I was scared to go after Ace not because he put up a convincing argument, but because I was intimidated by his stature and felt like no one would listen to me. Since then I've vowed not to let somebodies prestige or whatever influence my thoughts on them.
@layabout
I have an odd feeling about VE, but the way he's jumping around just seems like bad town to me. Second guessing himself and not really sure where to go, I understand this type of play because it's something I've done a lot as town. I'll read his filter in more detail, there are a few things in your analysis where you're kind of filling in the blanks. Changing your mind or losing confidence in a read isn't particularly scummy, it's fairly normal for town players to do. A town player doesn't have the implicit guilt that a mafia player has and might not feel the need to tell the town about every change in thought or doubt that goes on in their mind.
Consider this. If VE was scum, trying to get redFF lynched initially as he did, why would he then throw doubt onto it? The bandwagon was gaining momentum and it would have been very easy to just stay quiet and let the lynch happen, or keep throwing suspicion onto redFF while hedging your bets just a tiny bit.
In fact this sentence
VE really didn't think that redFF looked scummy but was still willing to try to start a bandwagon
Actually implies that you know he is town. If he was scum, he doesn't "think" redFF looks scummy or not, any fake scum wagon is done under the knowledge that a player is not scum. Considering how many other people at the time and still think redFF was/is scum, VE's actual opinion on the validity of the arguments is irrelevant because the bandwagon would succeed anyhow, he would just have to put up a little bit of pressure. VE even says, in the posts you quoted, the specific thing that made him doubt that redFF was scum even though he initially believed him to be. None of these things make VE seem more or less town to me, but by using your logic your accusations don't make sense.
Other than that, I strongly agree with most of your points particularly this one referring to VE unFoSing Red for pointing out RoL's inactivity.
That was what it took to remove redFF from VE's lynch list. Simply pointing out that another player had not been posting. That action is alignment neutral and is it is absurd that that could be enough to convince VE that a player he spent a lot of time calling "anti-town" and "scum" and analysing would not be worth lynching
VE, you need to respond to this. Why are you so quickly dumping your own reads?
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On February 23 2012 06:22 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:06 Blazinghand wrote:
So the case on BC is
All he's basically done is argue with jackal
He's mad for no reason
he jumped on the redFF wagon
he hasn't been helpful
He's BC, and these things together are uncharismatic of both town play but also BC play in general, town or scum. However we'd be lynching the crap out of him if he were anyone else
Layabout doesn't want to get shot
and this is more convincing than the case against redFF> Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:11 Blazinghand wrote:Alright lets roll this wagon across the finish line. I'll vote him  I anticipate this will earn me lots of town credit and you guys will be like "wow blazinghand what a fortuitous voteswitch, that makes you a good person" and send me chocolates and stuff but you don't have my address so I won't get any which is really actually good since I'm trying to lose weight Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:17 Blazinghand wrote:
dude layabout we kind of need another vote and there's like 40 minutes left, get over here Ok those 3 posts worry me A LOT right now. Anyone got the same feeling?
It's like I'm playing with Coagulation all over again. They're obnoxious but this kind of playstyle is hard to get any read from other than "annoying". The only thing that worries me is that BH seemingly hasn't contributed a single original thought or point despite posting prolifically.
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On February 23 2012 06:25 prplhz wrote:
I agree with Toadesstern and Jackal58 on Blazinghand.
Thanks for letting us know
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I don't care about meta
prplhz have you posted anything that isn't so lukewarm? I see that you're posting but I feel like if all your posts were deleted, the thread would be exactly the same.
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On February 23 2012 06:30 Blazinghand wrote:
Hm that's a good point. IT could be a function of WHEN your wagon started though right
It's a shit point. The best defense is being behind in votes. It's unnecessary for anyone to hard defend scum BC unless he gets 1-2 behind.
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On February 23 2012 06:33 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:31 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 23 2012 06:30 Blazinghand wrote:
Hm that's a good point. IT could be a function of WHEN your wagon started though right It's a shit point. The best defense is being behind in votes. It's unnecessary for anyone to hard defend scum BC unless he gets 1-2 behind. wouldn't it be unneccessary... until he gets ahead?
That depends on your preference as scum. I would gun it a little bit early to avoid the inevitable "he changed his vote as soon as BC started winning" thing if I'm scum. It could be a little bit behind, tied, ahead, it doesn't really matter. redFF winning would be all the defense BC needs.
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BH, since you claim you can't be meta'd can you explain how anything you've done is helpful to town? You seem to agree that you've been an unoriginal sheep the entire game, but you're posting more than anyone else. Stop announcing your votes and make a point or I'll likely change my vote.
I have a case to push but I won't do it until the end of the night unless there is significant time left. The vote ends today right? Few hours?
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That's fine then. Can I expect to see some contribution beyond criticism from you on Day 2, BC?
I'm pretty sure prplhz is scum and I'll make my case on him tonight in case I die. RedFF seems likely as well, but we'll see when the flip happens. BC has responded fairly well to the pressure as far as explaining himself in my opinion, all that's lacking is for him to make some positive play or follow through with his criticisms by scumhunting on the second day.
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On February 23 2012 06:54 risk.nuke wrote:
God dammit don't lynch a person who claimed tracker day 1. If you have ANY brains.
He claimed tracker powers day 1 and hasn't played since then, he didn't claim a named role though which is extremely odd since it's allowed.
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On February 23 2012 06:52 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 05:29 syllogism wrote:
Kita I know you have been around and yet do not care enough to even post. This is the second game in a row you have been completely worthless in thread and at least in arkham you were town. Is this your new standard of play? No need to call people worthless in games you haven't played. It isn't the first time you've done it and it isn't constructive. I haven't been completely absent in this game, I've had classes for the last 7 hours. Show nested quote +On February 22 2012 23:34 Jackal58 wrote:On February 22 2012 21:59 syllogism wrote:
As I noted earlier, I do not think it's likely that the setup has a scum tracker but no town tracker. Therefore the town tracker can just counter claim him, but I doubt that's going to happen as it's more likely that he is our town tracker. These are assumptions, but reasonable and likely ones. Anyway, I don't think he is town because of his claim, but due to other aforementioned evidence and rationale. What if there are 2 separate scum factions Syllo? Palmar states that multiple factions are a possibility in the OP. Are you questioning whether red could be scum, just not from the same scum faction as yours? Because that's sure is a strange question to ask from a town perspective. Jackal has a really poor filter and I think we should consider him tomorrow. Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 01:05 Tyrran wrote:
There is the possibility that red is 3rd faction. That could explain several thing. mmk, so now rather than a separate scum faction, he might be third party? Scummy conclusion to make.blazing has moved his vote around plenty of times on the first day, which is a heuristic that generally points town. He can live. The biggest thing about BC is his view of red. He goes from having a null/"bad" read on red to voting him based on the claim. What I'm wondering is if redff plans to save himself with his vote. Catching up on the posts that were made since typing this up, then I'll make my decision. (yay for last minute swings)
Why is that scummy? It's a completely valid point, in fact the signup post even implies there is a third party.
You're ignoring the posting behavior accompanying BH's constant vote switches which is the actually worrying characteristic of his play. I don't think anyone is really voting for him because he changed his vote too much.
Thirdly, that is the one part of BC's defense and posts that is actually logically very clear. He says he lacks the confidence to differentiate between scum and bad town and that redFF is either/or. The defensive and badly done claim would be the thing that had set him over the edge into believe he is scum if I'm not misunderstanding him. That's pretty clear. Are you not keeping up with things?
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On February 23 2012 06:56 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 06:56 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 23 2012 06:54 risk.nuke wrote:
God dammit don't lynch a person who claimed tracker day 1. If you have ANY brains. He claimed tracker powers day 1 and hasn't played since then, he didn't claim a named role though which is extremely odd since it's allowed. And this is weirder than BC's weirdness?
If he were a mafia tracker role or third party tracker role, it's safer to just claim what you know "your power" and not the name of the role which could be counterclaimed more easily. A scum backed up against a corner might avoid telling more lies than necessary as well.
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I didn't sheep anybody. I made my case on BC well before I even read syllogisms original post. You're connecting points I'm making in specific reference to other peoples posts to unrelated ideas. I was trying to illustrate that the wagon forming quickly doesn't mean much. The scum don't need to defend redFF if they can get somebody else lynched.
I don't think my posts are wishy washy. I wasn't yelling in the thread for one person to get lynched over any other, but that can't really be defined as wishy washiness. I wasn't planning on rebutting the case on redFF because I never ever thought it needed to be rebutted. I voted for redFF in the end. I moved my vote to BC to put pressure on him and make sure he stays active in the thread, his responses satisfied me enough that I wanted to stick with my original convictions and give BC Day 2 to prove himself. Needless to say I'll be keeping a close eye on him.
Calling BC the alternative lynch is a non-point since his flip, or lack thereof, was inconclusive. You don't know whether or not he is scum, unless you are scum, so implying that it is a defensive alternative makes no sense as town especially considering redFF is the person I voted for.
I never called RedFF not scum. I never called him 100% scum. I said very clearly RedFF is likely scum or terrible town but his claim is poorly done and seems defensive. I was more than okay with the RedFF lynch, which seemed so likely to go through at the time I switched to BC to pressure another player I was suspicious of. Seeing as RedFF has been AWOL during this entire period, I feel I made the right choice. If I didn't think RedFF was very suspect, I would have been far more vocal in trying to get people to join a BC bandwagon but you will notice I did no such thing as far as I can recall anyway. That's as much as I'll say in the interest of defending myself.
This redFF "flip", or whatever it is, is inconclusive and I don't feel it necessary to comment on it further. I'll read filters when I have the time.
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I'm trying to be calm, I'm certainly interested in what happens. Do you expect me to be screaming and spamming for scum on Day 1? I was for the RedFF lynch and changed my vote to pressure BC. I changed it back during a time when it could have very easily gone either way. If I feel incredibly strong about a lynch or a case I will take more time to read filters/the thread and push it harder. I felt pretty good about redFF. I didn't feel the need to use "backbone" to strong arm the lynch when it already had a huge majority of the votes. That's just noise. Especially when redFF isn't even responding.
BC was the second lynch but when you use the word 'alternative' are you trying to imply that I was defending red by voting for BC? That I was doing the exact scum plan that I explained in my post? Why does it even matter if BC was the second bandwagon, that implies nothing about my alignment and has absolutely nothing to do with the original point I was making which was only about why scum would not need to act majorly defensive about RedFF or outwardly "resist" the bandwagon.
I'm also not disagreeing that BC is the "alternate lynch", and I didn't say that. I said it was a nonpoint. It is the alternative lynch but it doesn't matter and gives you no information about my alignment. You're trying to make it look like I contradicted myself in this post:
"The wagon formed too fast" is not really an adequate rebuttal to the entire case that redFF is scum. I doubt he will come to defend himself, hasn't he ragequit the game because WBG called him bad? I'd expect there is resistance, but if scum plays that badly town can overwhelm the mafia resistance and in this case if I'm scum I'd be looking for an alternative lynch to push.
when I did not. I don't need you to tell me how the votes happened, I'm aware of it and it doesn't help anybody.
The fact that I second guess myself a lot might make me seem aloof. I'm just not going to call people stupid and spam worthless one-liners like "youre scum" over and over again. Usually I post a lot and it's very clear how my mind changes from thought to thought and is demonstrated throughout my posts (see: insane mafia 1, salem mafia) but I'm not gonna clutter up the thread this time. I told myself I wouldn't spam in Arkham City and that's exactly what I did. Do you have any other criticisms
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I wouldn't call calmly defending myself "flipping out"
If your argument is that I'm scum for responding to your criticism at all then I implore you to learn better scumhunting strategies. I don't even understand how you reached the conclusion that I have some knowledge other people don't about redFF so I'm going to ignore that and assume it's just stupid.
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On February 23 2012 10:10 VisceraEyes wrote:DocH I am disappoint. I subscribed to your newsletter and everything. Why u switch off BC? WWHHHYYYYYYYY?!?!!? 
Why do you care, if you are so certain of his alignment it doesn't matter at all what I do or think. Think for yourself and stop sheeping me.
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On February 23 2012 10:11 VisceraEyes wrote:
What in particular did you like about his defense? The fact that he didn't give any reads or the fact that the majority of it was calling everyone voting him stupid?
I think he was justified in not having a strong read on Day 1 and I remembered playing with him in the TF2 game where he had similar behavior on the first day. He didn't do anything to make me think he is town. He did justify his lack of contribution and attitude enough for me to think lynching Red today was the better choice.
My full read on BC depends on what he brings to the table on the second day. If it's nothing, string him up.
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I don't understand why you'd make a post patting me on the back for what I said about him in the first place. The way you phrased this:
On February 23 2012 10:10 VisceraEyes wrote:DocH I am disappoint. I subscribed to your newsletter and everything. Why u switch off BC? WWHHHYYYYYYYY?!?!!?
Makes it seem like you are more disappointed that you're not in the same boat with me rather than the actual lynch result. If you are independent and don't care so much about what I think then prove it over the next day instead of getting offended.
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No it's not bullshit and I do believe that the points I make stand against BC and he is very very much on my radar for scum. I switched my vote because I thought red was more likely scum than BC and that if BC IS scum it'll be much more apparent by Day 2 than by Day 1. There wasn't much else to discuss with redFF and the bandwagon had taken off so much would you have preferred me to beat a dead horse?
He didn't do anything to make me think he is town.
Do you fault him for not being the one who came up with the RedFF bandwagon? What is he supposed to say about it? He's been negative and critical and unhelpful and I don't like it at all. I'm not removing suspicion from BloodyC0bbler. He justified a couple of things (his lack of assurance, understandable on day 1) enough for me to move my vote for today and see what he brings to the table tomorrow. It's really that simple.
I expect BC to be helpful and do more work and less complaining. I'm not by any means letting him off the hook. I even told him straight up that he needs to put up or die come Day 2.
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EPT
