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On March 13 2012 08:07 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 08:05 Toadesstern wrote:
oh and yeah about the bullshitting this game. I tend to do that when the thread goes semi-dead and it forces people to talk.
It's not helping town at all because people will end up thinking I'm retarded or mafia but it's at least helping me out figuring this out. At least that's the reason I was dead certain on WBG, RoL and BC to be mafia, actually should have realized Laya was mafia as well but I was to blinded by my meta-read on VE thinking I got mafia with those 4.
Idk, it's probably really bad to do such a thing, because town has no possibility to judge if I'm mafia doing that on purpose or town doing that on purpose and therefore it's getting really hard for town to correctly judge me but it's really nice from your own reads :p
And well, imo the thread was semi-dead after a bunch of days and pretty much noone was putting effort in this game so I didn't care about bullshitting at that point in time and just went with it to get at least some nice reads myself. I was putting in effort you little shit. 
sry you were one of the few exceptions :p
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Yeah you're right, you guys got in a position where no matter what happened you would lose.
Kita you played pretty well; sorry your team sucked. lol.
Also VE I'm jealous, the guy without a team to worry about cruised along all game watching everyone derp hahaha
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On March 13 2012 07:49 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
can you post mafia qt
We used skype all game, our mafia QT is fairly empty.
My apologies for the inactivity. I never actually intended on rage quitting but I watched you guys nearly let RedFF with his shit claim off the hook because his rage quit seemed townish. The only reasonable that flipped back on him was because of the scum team. I still say killing RedFF was the right thing to do. On that note, I figured if I just went AFK and let mafia subtly divert the lynch we would be in a good position to bus me the next day. I knew the 5 minutes before deadline thing was going to be scummy as fuck, I intended to do it sooner but a bunch of you were active in thread and I wanted to minimize the risk of a vote switch figuring I was doomed regardless. I will say I think it was a mistake for my team to not just bus me at that point, but on the same note I'd say they were in a precarious position anyway since most of them were suspect, but I think not bussing me quashed any doubts anyone had about them.
I do think there was a LOT of blue roles and in a virtually 1 KP set up we had 3 of our KP blocked or something like that? pretty messed up. We considered using the RB + kill strategy but without anyone knowing if we RBed them that strategy has less of an advantage since we are not hiding the fact a roleblocker exists for us. If you go back and look at the action list, I still say we made the right decision with the RBs. VE targetted us twice I think RBed both times which helped us, but at the same time no one knew a third party existed and the only time we noticed was when Tyrran died effectively killing LayAbout.
For reference, Bonebreaker = roleblocker for all purposes. Same role, different name.
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RoL I'd suggest next time you join a game, you actually play it. The only reason I didn't bus you day 1 was because you kept promising to be active, and you were actually on skype. Hell, you were on long enough to argue with the hosts for 2 hours.
Mafia is a teamgame, and your play this game was essentially that of the freeloader in a group project.
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On March 13 2012 08:07 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 08:06 wherebugsgo wrote:On March 13 2012 07:52 VisceraEyes wrote:
Palmar was traitor in Responsibility, not L. FOOL! Right, my bad. On March 13 2012 07:59 Toadesstern wrote:On March 13 2012 07:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Also Toad it doesn't matter that you caught any of us when you singlehandedly were one of the worst players for town.
Saying something like "I don't care that there's third party when they're helping town" is funny in retrospect, but really really dumb.
As town your goal is to kill all nontown, indiscriminately. As the setup is closed you have no idea what you're up against, so you just kill whoeever fits a scum agenda. VE wasn'f playing to his town meta (look at the countercase I built on him d3; 100% of that case, I would repeat as a townie)
Layabout and I tried swinging the town lynch onto VE multiple times.
Ultimately I think we could have approached that differently and potentially gotten him killed for our gain if we opposed the prpl lynch, or bussed RoL. However in terms of self preservation and not knowing 100% at the time it was difficult to make that assessment.
Also something that's funny is that it's really really easy to find third parties as scum. In every scum game I've played that had third party in it, I've caught onto them, with my strongest case often being on them. Ex. MLP tnkted was third party, in L Palmar was traitor, in AC Palmar/Kurumi were third party, and this game with VE.
I guess I should push those reads more strongly in thread and back off the obv town mislynches :p yeah but we were at lylo. How can people even suggest talking about 3rd parties when we desperatly need to kill mafia first. That's the point. I did not care about 3rd parties as long as there were confirmed mafias around and the 3rd party thing was a guess which, if wrong, would have caused us to insta-lose the game. Even if it was right lynching the 3rd party instead of a mafia could have lost us the game at some point. Except it should've been obvious there was an SK when two people died (IIRC?) Also, generally the only way most SKs can die is through lynch. Which means, at that stage in the game, you have to lynch the SK because otherwise you can't kill him. You can't lynch the sk if it gives the scum team control over the lynch. o.O
If I remember right, the town had lost the game right as soon as DrH blew up with whoever that was. At that point you were even numbered with mafia + SK and your only chance was for the SK to kill us which he wouldn't do knowing he would auto win. You kill the SK mafia wins, means you can only lynch mafia and hope the SK fucks up which didn't happen since we were RBing him.
Not that anyone really knew he existed at that point, but still.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On March 13 2012 08:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
Kita you played pretty well; sorry your team sucked. lol.
heh naw I deserve some of the blame due to the slow start. I really should have pushed RoL harder day two, rather than blazing, but it is incredibly difficult to build a case against a player without any posts. redFF was tough since he decided to rage quit after the strange start. It was a similar situation to day three. If he doesn't return then he is obviously town, but if he pulls a RoL, then its a wasted day.
I think I'm just going to policy lynch martyrs from now on. It's so incredibly easy for scum players to lurk hard. If I hadn't had a check on risk/cwave, I'm pretty sure they would have been mislynched due to inactivity at some point.
I think I would have been on board for a prpl lynch, even after a RoL flip lategame.
This game turned out really similar to Responsibility. A bunch of mislynches at the start, resulting in multiple LYLO situations. In that game, we went for the bus, which turned out to be the incorrect decision. In this game, you guys went for the all-in, which also seems like it was the less optimal choice. Tough break for mafia teams -_-
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On March 13 2012 08:24 wherebugsgo wrote:
RoL I'd suggest next time you join a game, you actually play it. The only reason I didn't bus you day 1 was because you kept promising to be active, and you were actually on skype. Hell, you were on long enough to argue with the hosts for 2 hours.
Mafia is a teamgame, and your play this game was essentially that of the freeloader in a group project.
yeah, I know you are pissed. Sorry about that, work schedule + school + girlfriend I can't do it. I don't plan on playing another game no matter how tempting until I break up with girlfriend, quit my job, or graduate. Any two of the above and I would have enough time to play.
While I would agree that my play was poor and a reason we lost, you should of acknowledged that I had too many people gunning for me by day 2 and 3 that trying to not let me die day 4 was stupid. I spoke to you guys all day 3 about how if this worked you should be bussing me the next day. Instead we got greedy and went for the win when it was extremely unlikely we would get it.
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Kita was putting in effort. DocH was putting in effort. Dirkzor was herpin and a derpin putting in effort.
I think of everyone, I'm the most upset about the showing from BC. Once I was sure he was scum, I kept having this irrational fear of him ruining everything for me. Luckily for me, it never came...but that's an unfortunate side-effect of being anally excavated by scumBC before.
I'd like to apologize to DocH - I told my wife the night that DocH was pushing me hard that I poured on the 'offended townie' a little thick and I was afraid I made him feel bad. I've since realized that it was all just part of his game, but I still know I appealed to emotion pretty hard. My bad dude - quit being so good at the game!
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On March 13 2012 08:24 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 08:07 kitaman27 wrote:On March 13 2012 08:06 wherebugsgo wrote:On March 13 2012 07:52 VisceraEyes wrote:
Palmar was traitor in Responsibility, not L. FOOL! Right, my bad. On March 13 2012 07:59 Toadesstern wrote:On March 13 2012 07:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Also Toad it doesn't matter that you caught any of us when you singlehandedly were one of the worst players for town.
Saying something like "I don't care that there's third party when they're helping town" is funny in retrospect, but really really dumb.
As town your goal is to kill all nontown, indiscriminately. As the setup is closed you have no idea what you're up against, so you just kill whoeever fits a scum agenda. VE wasn'f playing to his town meta (look at the countercase I built on him d3; 100% of that case, I would repeat as a townie)
Layabout and I tried swinging the town lynch onto VE multiple times.
Ultimately I think we could have approached that differently and potentially gotten him killed for our gain if we opposed the prpl lynch, or bussed RoL. However in terms of self preservation and not knowing 100% at the time it was difficult to make that assessment.
Also something that's funny is that it's really really easy to find third parties as scum. In every scum game I've played that had third party in it, I've caught onto them, with my strongest case often being on them. Ex. MLP tnkted was third party, in L Palmar was traitor, in AC Palmar/Kurumi were third party, and this game with VE.
I guess I should push those reads more strongly in thread and back off the obv town mislynches :p yeah but we were at lylo. How can people even suggest talking about 3rd parties when we desperatly need to kill mafia first. That's the point. I did not care about 3rd parties as long as there were confirmed mafias around and the 3rd party thing was a guess which, if wrong, would have caused us to insta-lose the game. Even if it was right lynching the 3rd party instead of a mafia could have lost us the game at some point. Except it should've been obvious there was an SK when two people died (IIRC?) Also, generally the only way most SKs can die is through lynch. Which means, at that stage in the game, you have to lynch the SK because otherwise you can't kill him. You can't lynch the sk if it gives the scum team control over the lynch. o.O If I remember right, the town had lost the game right as soon as DrH blew up with whoever that was. At that point you were even numbered with mafia + SK and your only chance was for the SK to kill us which he wouldn't do knowing he would auto win. You kill the SK mafia wins, means you can only lynch mafia and hope the SK fucks up which didn't happen since we were RBing him. Not that anyone really knew he existed at that point, but still.
Kind of. WE needed a succesful RB or protection.
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On March 13 2012 08:26 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 08:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
Kita you played pretty well; sorry your team sucked. lol.
heh naw I deserve some of the blame due to the slow start. I really should have pushed RoL harder day two, rather than blazing, but it is incredibly difficult to build a case against a player without any posts. redFF was tough since he decided to rage quit after the strange start. It was a similar situation to day three. If he doesn't return then he is obviously town, but if he pulls a RoL, then its a wasted day. I think I'm just going to policy lynch martyrs from now on. It's so incredibly easy for scum players to lurk hard. If I hadn't had a check on risk/cwave, I'm pretty sure they would have been mislynched due to inactivity at some point. The one thing I disagree with Palmar in his post game analysis was the prpl lynch. I don't think the case against him was all that bad. This game turned out really similar to Responsibility. A bunch of mislynches at the start, resulting in multiple LYLO situations. In that game, we went for the bus, which turned out to be the incorrect decision. In this game, you guys went for the all-in, which also seems like it was the less optimal choice. Tough break for mafia teams -_-
This is exactly the mentality that pisses me off and the reason I did that AFK move. I knew arguing would dig my own grave but that town interprets rage quits as a town tell which I understand but shouldn't fly as policy. As a townie, you can just get annoyed and rage quit because you don't think it matters if you as a green or w/e die. As mafia we can't EVER rage quit because we are on a team. So using that logic if someone rage quits and isn't trying to live then they are town. So I used that presumption you guys had to survive a lynch.
It pissed me off that it took 4 mafia to bandwagon to get RedFF to die. To clarify, the reason we chose to cover that lynch was multi-pronged. First off, there were 4 of us on it and I'd rather town never get that information and be able to look at that lynch and decide. Second of all, it was a oneshot power and BC almost died anyway. We figured use it and have BC submit our hits so that if BC is ever tracked or something we wouldn't be losing a power like RB, Medic, or Poison since BC was already spent on his other power. The third reason is something I disagree with Palmar about. The town can't ever know what RedFF's true alignment is and only inferences can be gleaned from presumptions such as "Only town would rage quit" which I later showed you is incorrect. Sure you can examine differences between the Day 1 and Day 3 lynches and figure out what was different about them that makes Day 3 a scum rage quit and Day 1 not, but those problems were products of the players and this game specifically and I don't think would be useful later on. Also, hypothetically if you lynched BC Day 1 instead, his lynch would of been covered since he could Janitor his own lynch. So yes, we could of been covering a day 1 mafia lynch as well and without a doubt would have.
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On March 13 2012 08:27 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 08:24 wherebugsgo wrote:
RoL I'd suggest next time you join a game, you actually play it. The only reason I didn't bus you day 1 was because you kept promising to be active, and you were actually on skype. Hell, you were on long enough to argue with the hosts for 2 hours.
Mafia is a teamgame, and your play this game was essentially that of the freeloader in a group project. yeah, I know you are pissed. Sorry about that, work schedule + school + girlfriend I can't do it. I don't plan on playing another game no matter how tempting until I break up with girlfriend, quit my job, or graduate. Any two of the above and I would have enough time to play. While I would agree that my play was poor and a reason we lost, you should of acknowledged that I had too many people gunning for me by day 2 and 3 that trying to not let me die day 4 was stupid. I spoke to you guys all day 3 about how if this worked you should be bussing me the next day. Instead we got greedy and went for the win when it was extremely unlikely we would get it.
Nah. There's one reason you died instead of Toad that day and it's the fact that you chose to say anything at all.
VE had his vote firmly planted on Toad and it would've resulted in us winning but you decided to start posting in the thread. The stuff you posted was incredibly scummy too (I was reading it and lolling afterwards) and VE switched. Jitsu and Cwave were manipulable as well, but once you essentially claimed scum it was over.
This goes to anyone in that kind of situation: if you've been inactive all game, before trying to defend yourself as scum, talk to your team. Sometimes it's better to just either continue your inactivity or at least pass the posts through your teammates for approval.
Sure, it was a mistake for us not to bus you, but on d4 even if we did bus you it would be impossible to shake suspicion. Our best time to bus was day 2 or day 3.
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I'd agree, and yes, I am aware I made myself look terrible Day 4, I was posting thoughtlessly and every time I hit submit I kept facepalming myself. I would say once that bomb went off I was really fucked though. Those two people who died were both thinking I was town and could of voted for toad or someone else, but instead we lost two prospective votes to a suicide bomb which was quite meh.
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Since the mislynches were being handed to us so easily we didn't realise how much we needed to bus RoL until it was too late...TT
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On March 13 2012 08:28 VisceraEyes wrote:Kita was putting in effort. DocH was putting in effort. Dirkzor was herpin and a derpin putting in effort. I think of everyone, I'm the most upset about the showing from BC. Once I was sure he was scum, I kept having this irrational fear of him ruining everything for me. Luckily for me, it never came...but that's an unfortunate side-effect of being anally excavated by scumBC before. I'd like to apologize to DocH - I told my wife the night that DocH was pushing me hard that I poured on the 'offended townie' a little thick and I was afraid I made him feel bad. I've since realized that it was all just part of his game, but I still know I appealed to emotion pretty hard. My bad dude - quit being so good at the game!
if i was good we wouldnt have had 3 mislynches in a row this game was embarrassing for me
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Also, one of you scummy fuckers is buying me a drink at Columbus. LMAO I worked my ass off this game.
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On March 13 2012 08:47 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 08:28 VisceraEyes wrote:Kita was putting in effort. DocH was putting in effort. Dirkzor was herpin and a derpin putting in effort. I think of everyone, I'm the most upset about the showing from BC. Once I was sure he was scum, I kept having this irrational fear of him ruining everything for me. Luckily for me, it never came...but that's an unfortunate side-effect of being anally excavated by scumBC before. I'd like to apologize to DocH - I told my wife the night that DocH was pushing me hard that I poured on the 'offended townie' a little thick and I was afraid I made him feel bad. I've since realized that it was all just part of his game, but I still know I appealed to emotion pretty hard. My bad dude - quit being so good at the game! if i was good we wouldnt have had 3 mislynches in a row this game was embarrassing for me
well there were a lot of people who I thought were incredible hard to convince to do the right thing although I had a town read on them. You were not one of them and I only was suspicious of you because I omgus'ed hard and should have realized it was a townie who was seriously in trouble figuring out what was going on with my bullshit while BC, Laya and mostly WBG all were like "LOL HE'S RETARDED, DON'T ASK QUESTIONS, LYNCH HIM RIGHT NAO".
That was the most townie thing you could do and yet I did not realize it in time, had doubt about you because of my omgus and completly missed it while focusing on these people who basicly claimed mafia from my point of view 
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On March 13 2012 09:24 Toadesstern wrote:
well there were a lot of people who I thought were incredible hard to convince to do the right thing although I had a town read on them.
Logic wasn't working, which is why I went with the fake claim. Remember town, lying always pays off. You should all do it more often.
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On March 13 2012 09:28 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 09:24 Toadesstern wrote:
well there were a lot of people who I thought were incredible hard to convince to do the right thing although I had a town read on them. Logic wasn't working, which is why I went with the fake claim. Remember town, lying always pays off. You should all do it more often.
Like, you jest...but seriously guy. Towns need to practice taking a step back from their point of view and seeing if everything lines up before dismissing other lines of thought. These games are won by playing them, not by letting them be played by others and just sheeping them. Look how close you got to winning with that lie! TL towns are degrading to a point where you almost have to lie about a blue-check or night-action in order to be listened to at all. As you said, logic gets turned off and people go into auto-sheep mode.
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I'd also like to apologize for my shitty play too. I got demoralized pretty early, with a few things that just made me feel like no one gave two shits of my views or anything. I figured I wasn't being assertive enough, but IDK...Sorry again dudes. GG VE, sorry I let you down, Town.
Thanks a lot to Palmar/Sandro for letting me into this game, and hosting it as well. It was actually really fun.
The night when the vote was between RoL and Toad, and I was pretty much the deciding vote...holy shit, I never stirred so much in my career here. I spent the entire last hour of the day pacing back and forth before I was like "Fuck it, going with my gut on RoL." Alas, too little, too late.
If anyone has any criticism, comments, or general asshole-tearing of my game play, i'd love to hear it.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On March 13 2012 09:53 Jitsu wrote:
If anyone has any criticism, comments, or general asshole-tearing of my game play, i'd love to hear it.
One thing that had me feeling uneasy was the fact that you would wait until really late in the day to share which way you were leaning. In one sense, it helps limit scum manipulation if they don't know who you plan to vote for, but had you gone the other way and voted toad, I felt I would never have a chance to address the reasoning behind your decision.
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EPT
