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On March 13 2012 11:26 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 11:13 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
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Anyone who says lynching an sk is a bad move as the sk is playing pro town? You are retarded. Sk's are pro sk. They will help either side as needed to achieve their own win condition. Do not rely on them. When it hit 6v4 it was actually 5v4v1 and town could no longer win. It ended up being a game of determining if scum or sk won, the game should never reach that point so fast. It was not about not lynching the sk, we just had no oppertunity to lynch him. We had a bunch of 100% confirmed mafias and we were in lylo. Yeah we were no longer able to win without a save but given that we needed a save lynching mafias first is the right thing because it gives us multiple nights to get that save while lynching the third party first is risky. I'm perfectly fine with telling people to not think about a "pro-town" 3rd party when we're at lylo as long as there's still mafia alive. We had 2 townies that were INCREDIBLE hard to get on the right lynch and I did not want to lose them to some manipulation from someone else and have people talking about alternatives when we really needed to hit mafia or it's an insta-lose. There was no way to win without protection. To get more chances to get that we obviously take the saver route and lynch mafia first. It's a closed set-up after all and noone knew about mafias abilities. Yeah it's a stupid thing to say a SK is "pro-town" but it got people lynching mafia which was needed.
let me repeat, we did not have 100% confirmed mafia. Based on my general apathy I could have easily been town as I would have been as uncaring this game as town. You can say im bsing that but I repeatedly stated I was not going to play another pyp3 as it was not enjoyable in any shape or form and was far more frustrating than it was worth.
Also, when you start flipping mafia and near everyone of them is telling you there is an sk? Guess what, it could be a ruse but more than likely THEY ARE TELLING TOWN THERE IS AN SK.
The only reason a 4th misslynch didn't happen was people auto buy roleclaims. You claimed a role you could not prove except in death based on when you claimed it. Kita claimed a role that was obviously fake. Had he worded his claim slightly more carefully and not called himself a dt we almost certaintly would have outed someone else as the sk.
Lynching RoL, and bugs were both smart lynches. The moment that tyrran flipped town should have instantly realized there was an sk. Why? Because we would never shoot a player that had a fraction of a possibility of being lynched over a mafia. No one discussed this and instead continued to lynch through the mafia suspects. I am not saying mafia played well as we didn't. But town played for the most part excusing very few players horrifically.
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On March 13 2012 11:35 VisceraEyes wrote:That means a lot coming from you two in particular, thanks. I told Palmar in PMs at the end of N5(?) that even if I don't win, I still win - it's not every game that I get hit N1 for my reads. Obviously I was under the impression that I was hit on N1, but I was RB'd all game for them so that's kinda the same thing. Luckily I'm widely regarded as being horrible, so killing me wasn't necessary. 
We should have roleblocked + killed you. Basically you claimed to have a gun day 1 which led us to roleblock you. We then knew syllo or kita were the two best non scum players in the game and factored in that based on play day 1 syllo was more likely to get protection (lul he was the medic) so we opted to shoot kita. Bad luck that he was a hider.
Most of our shots were actually thought out for decent reasons, we just had horrific luck. Knowing a confirmed alchemist gave kita a potion day 1 led us to shooting at him again for instance.
Still you did well. I commented that you were doing well early on into the game and that still held true through it all. I am glad to see you have tried hard to improve and have done so.
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On March 13 2012 11:37 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 11:26 Toadesstern wrote:On March 13 2012 11:13 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
[...]
Anyone who says lynching an sk is a bad move as the sk is playing pro town? You are retarded. Sk's are pro sk. They will help either side as needed to achieve their own win condition. Do not rely on them. When it hit 6v4 it was actually 5v4v1 and town could no longer win. It ended up being a game of determining if scum or sk won, the game should never reach that point so fast. It was not about not lynching the sk, we just had no oppertunity to lynch him. We had a bunch of 100% confirmed mafias and we were in lylo. Yeah we were no longer able to win without a save but given that we needed a save lynching mafias first is the right thing because it gives us multiple nights to get that save while lynching the third party first is risky. I'm perfectly fine with telling people to not think about a "pro-town" 3rd party when we're at lylo as long as there's still mafia alive. We had 2 townies that were INCREDIBLE hard to get on the right lynch and I did not want to lose them to some manipulation from someone else and have people talking about alternatives when we really needed to hit mafia or it's an insta-lose. There was no way to win without protection. To get more chances to get that we obviously take the saver route and lynch mafia first. It's a closed set-up after all and noone knew about mafias abilities. Yeah it's a stupid thing to say a SK is "pro-town" but it got people lynching mafia which was needed. let me repeat, we did not have 100% confirmed mafia. Based on my general apathy I could have easily been town as I would have been as uncaring this game as town. You can say im bsing that but I repeatedly stated I was not going to play another pyp3 as it was not enjoyable in any shape or form and was far more frustrating than it was worth. Also, when you start flipping mafia and near everyone of them is telling you there is an sk? Guess what, it could be a ruse but more than likely THEY ARE TELLING TOWN THERE IS AN SK. The only reason a 4th misslynch didn't happen was people auto buy roleclaims. You claimed a role you could not prove except in death based on when you claimed it. Kita claimed a role that was obviously fake. Had he worded his claim slightly more carefully and not called himself a dt we almost certaintly would have outed someone else as the sk. Lynching RoL, and bugs were both smart lynches. The moment that tyrran flipped town should have instantly realized there was an sk. Why? Because we would never shoot a player that had a fraction of a possibility of being lynched over a mafia. No one discussed this and instead continued to lynch through the mafia suspects. I am not saying mafia played well as we didn't. But town played for the most part excusing very few players horrifically.
This was my number one concern. I considered shooting Cwave instead, but town was all about just continuing to lynch scum so I rolled the dice. This was a serious consideration on that kill though, absolutely. I was shocked no one put that together.
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we RBed you because you were completely obvious about having a gun -_-
we never at any point considered your reads a threat outside of you potentially shooting us.
From a mafia perspective that's the only reason I'll ever roleblock someone, and since most players are relatively unpredictable it just means hunting anyone with a gun and RBing them.
I think I understand the balance concerns with having a BP SK. IMO they should be, at best, one shot BP, not completely BP, because in such situations as we had this game, it becomes nearly impossible for scum to kill them. The optimal play for any SK when town is being lynched is to shoot into scum. So, that means we're forced to RB the SK. That's exactly what happened both n1 and n2.
N3 we could've chosen not to RB VE but we made an incorrect assumption about the number and type of blues in the game. We assumed there were around 6, not 9. Thus, when we were relatively safe we assumed there couldn't potentially be 3 KP floating around (ultimately we realized there was 3 KP floating around, IIRC) because we killed syllo, so we assumed the only other vig was one of VE/Toad.
Since roleblocking VE had worked out for us up till that point, there was no reason to switch off.
EDIT: Shameless promotion
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174347¤tpage=79#1563
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On March 13 2012 11:42 wherebugsgo wrote:
we RBed you because you were completely obvious about having a gun -_-
we never at any point considered your reads a threat outside of you potentially shooting us.
From a mafia perspective that's the only reason I'll ever roleblock someone, and since most players are relatively unpredictable it just means hunting anyone with a gun and RBing them.
I think I understand the balance concerns with having a BP SK. IMO they should be, at best, one shot BP, not completely BP, because in such situations as we had this game, it becomes nearly impossible for scum to kill them. The optimal play for any SK when town is being lynched is to shoot into scum. So, that means we're forced to RB the SK. That's exactly what happened both n1 and n2.
N3 we could've chosen not to RB VE but we made an incorrect assumption about the number and type of blues in the game. We assumed there were around 6, not 9. Thus, when we were relatively safe we assumed there couldn't potentially be 3 KP floating around (ultimately we realized there was 3 KP floating around, IIRC) because we killed syllo, so we assumed the only other vig was one of VE/Toad.
Since roleblocking VE had worked out for us up till that point, there was no reason to switch off.
I'M YOUR MOTHERFUCKING HUCKLEBERRY BUGS!
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On March 13 2012 11:45 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 11:42 wherebugsgo wrote:
we RBed you because you were completely obvious about having a gun -_-
we never at any point considered your reads a threat outside of you potentially shooting us.
From a mafia perspective that's the only reason I'll ever roleblock someone, and since most players are relatively unpredictable it just means hunting anyone with a gun and RBing them.
I think I understand the balance concerns with having a BP SK. IMO they should be, at best, one shot BP, not completely BP, because in such situations as we had this game, it becomes nearly impossible for scum to kill them. The optimal play for any SK when town is being lynched is to shoot into scum. So, that means we're forced to RB the SK. That's exactly what happened both n1 and n2.
N3 we could've chosen not to RB VE but we made an incorrect assumption about the number and type of blues in the game. We assumed there were around 6, not 9. Thus, when we were relatively safe we assumed there couldn't potentially be 3 KP floating around (ultimately we realized there was 3 KP floating around, IIRC) because we killed syllo, so we assumed the only other vig was one of VE/Toad.
Since roleblocking VE had worked out for us up till that point, there was no reason to switch off. I'M YOUR MOTHERFUCKING HUCKLEBERRY BUGS!
lol wut
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don't get me wrong, I don't mean that your reads were bad. I mean that there was no chance in hell any townie was going to listen to you, because none of them were reading anything.
When a bunch of townies don't even read their own posts, basically anything can happen.
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Fair enough - put that way it sounded like you were saying "Psh, VE? Puh-leeze."
I get what you mean though - it sucks but you're probably right.
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On March 13 2012 11:48 VisceraEyes wrote:
Fair enough - put that way it sounded like you were saying "Psh, VE? Puh-leeze."
I get what you mean though - it sucks but you're probably right.
yeah, I realized that when I reread it lol.
you played really well; the only thing I think you could've done differently is perhaps not announce so boldly that you had a gun.
I guess it worked out because you were bulletproof. Normally when I play I'm wary of that type of stuff, but I guess when you're BP you don't give a fuck.
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Well I said wbg, RoL and Laya are all like 99% confirmed mafia to me and you (BC) are something like 90% for me.
When should we have lynched the sk instead? Cwave wasn't even sure who might be the sk the last possible day.
You think lynching a day earlier to try and hit the sk instead of the mafia would have been better?
That way people at least still got a full 48hours of reads because people finally started to talk, although it did not help.
Trying to hit the SK instead of mafia would have been stupid. It would have been more risky, it would take away time to better judge the situation for people and after all it was a closed setup. Yeah it really looked like we got a third party but what if that (although reasonable) assumption would have been wrong? We would have lynched into a townie 100% making us lose.
There was not a single reason to try and hit someone else first.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
My play was real bad this game sorry guys ;_;
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I soft-claimed Vig so I could hard-claim Vet later bro.
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On March 13 2012 11:52 Toadesstern wrote:
Well I said wbg, RoL and Laya are all like 99% confirmed mafia to me and you (BC) are something like 90% for me.
When should we have lynched the sk instead? Cwave wasn't even sure who might be the sk the last possible day.
You think lynching a day earlier to try and hit the sk instead of the mafia would have been better?
That way people at least still got a full 48hours of reads because people finally started to talk, although it did not help.
Trying to hit the SK instead of mafia would have been stupid. It would have been more risky, it would take away time to better judge the situation for people and after all it was a closed setup. Yeah it really looked like we got a third party but what if that (although reasonable) assumption would have been wrong? We would have lynched into a townie 100% making us lose.
There was not a single reason to try and hit someone else first.
You should never have had townies like prpl, redff, and blazing play worse games than any of the scum. We did near fuck all and appeared more town than they did. One or two bad players whatever. But seriously toad, aside from sheep other people you helped keep the thread so cluttered that analyzing people was insanely hard + created an atmosphere that made the game hard to read/keep motivated to play. I know you love this game, and I love seeing that passion. I love that you are trying to get better and I see that. But you need to slow down your posting, take a step back and seriously think things through. The same can be said of a few other players this game but you lived longer. Your claim was bad only in that you could never prove it. You auto confirmed kita as town when up till the point of his claim he had played as badly as I had for very similar reasons. Yet he was confirmed for a lynch that (although we didnt) mafia would easily have pushed.
The complete ignoring of basic logical conclusions in a game of manipulation astounds me on so many levels. There is way to much blind trust.
BH claimed people were like "hes legit" but his play was bad enough to get him lynched around his claim point
Redff claimed and people said "hes obviously town" no he wasnt. Claiming does not mean you are town, ever, unless your role auto confirms you -_-
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On March 13 2012 12:06 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 11:52 Toadesstern wrote:
Well I said wbg, RoL and Laya are all like 99% confirmed mafia to me and you (BC) are something like 90% for me.
When should we have lynched the sk instead? Cwave wasn't even sure who might be the sk the last possible day.
You think lynching a day earlier to try and hit the sk instead of the mafia would have been better?
That way people at least still got a full 48hours of reads because people finally started to talk, although it did not help.
Trying to hit the SK instead of mafia would have been stupid. It would have been more risky, it would take away time to better judge the situation for people and after all it was a closed setup. Yeah it really looked like we got a third party but what if that (although reasonable) assumption would have been wrong? We would have lynched into a townie 100% making us lose.
There was not a single reason to try and hit someone else first. You should never have had townies like prpl, redff, and blazing play worse games than any of the scum. We did near fuck all and appeared more town than they did. One or two bad players whatever. But seriously toad, aside from sheep other people you helped keep the thread so cluttered that analyzing people was insanely hard + created an atmosphere that made the game hard to read/keep motivated to play. I know you love this game, and I love seeing that passion. I love that you are trying to get better and I see that. But you need to slow down your posting, take a step back and seriously think things through. The same can be said of a few other players this game but you lived longer. Your claim was bad only in that you could never prove it. You auto confirmed kita as town when up till the point of his claim he had played as badly as I had for very similar reasons. Yet he was confirmed for a lynch that (although we didnt) mafia would easily have pushed. The complete ignoring of basic logical conclusions in a game of manipulation astounds me on so many levels. There is way to much blind trust. BH claimed people were like "hes legit" but his play was bad enough to get him lynched around his claim point Redff claimed and people said "hes obviously town" no he wasnt. Claiming does not mean you are town, ever, unless your role auto confirms you -_-
I really tried to calm down this game. I think I mentioned somewhere pretty early that I only had half the filter VE had which is already a big deal for me. I just got really pissed (again) this game seeing people who didn't care at all about this game.
I got really mad about risk not playing at all just to find out he's a townie the moment he got replaced out (yeah wifom but whatever) and well d3 or so I realized that there were like 5 people tops who were really willing to play this game so I just ignored my good intentions and just bullshitted to try and fish for reactions.
I know that's fucking up the thread and it's really hard (if not impossible) for town to figure out if I'm a townie who's being retarded on purpose or a mafia who's being retarded on purpose but from my point of view it's really easy to figure out mafia that way because I got so many people crawling out of their holes yelling "LYNCH TOAD NAO" being happy to finally contribute at scumhunting.
I literally painted myself as a target to figure out mafia myself and yeah that's screwing up the thread but by d2/d3 I really didn't care anymore about the thread because there was nothing imo.
Yeah probably pretty selfish and I can see what VE meant when saying something along the lines "Toad is always the most important person in this game in Toads opinion" :p
It's just like that every game. I'm getting into the game telling myself "Well this game I'm going to play seriously as town and try standard scumhunting" and once I get pissed about something (like in L after noone was listening to me, like in this game after realizing that noone was playing this game) I just don't feel like putting in more effort anymore and just scumhunt that way because it's way easier. You just can't prove it to other people because noone knows if I'm doing that on purpose or not :p
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
One thing you might want to consider Toad is to eliminate these type of posts. They don't add much to the thread and make your filter incredibly difficult to follow. I'm pretty spammy at times too, so I'm probably not one to talk, but eliminating conversations is generally for the best.
That being said, the fact that you were so open and willing to share your opinion made me confident enough to that you were town to back you up. This game was a lot better than Arkham in my opinion.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 28 2012 10:25 Toadesstern wrote:
he's got more pages in his filter than I have in mine. I'd consider that spamming. On February 21 2012 22:16 Toadesstern wrote:
oh for christ's sake. I'm getting something to eat right now, I'm in no state to type right now :p On February 22 2012 06:20 Toadesstern wrote:
there he is \o/ On February 23 2012 03:59 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 03:58 Blazinghand wrote:On February 23 2012 03:56 prplhz wrote:
Like, I think BloodyC0bbler is scummy but I'm always kinda unsure about my reads (because, allegedly, I'm bad). Sometimes I just fake it but I'm not doing that in this game because that wouldn't help on this crowd anyway. Ah yes waffle more not helping dude On February 23 2012 05:28 Toadesstern wrote:
oh right On February 24 2012 07:07 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 07:06 Jackal58 wrote:On February 24 2012 07:01 Toadesstern wrote:On February 24 2012 06:54 Blazinghand wrote:On February 24 2012 06:53 Toadesstern wrote:On February 24 2012 06:44 syllogism wrote:
A third party power that hides flips makes no sense at all. What possible function would that serve? I have no idea. I really don't know what kind of thirdparty roles excist and all I know about them is what I know from irc-Mafia and that Batman and Catwoman might exist. Other than that I never saw a thirdparty role in a game. I'd say it's something like that for me: It's probably the townie that dies when lynched but flips a day later. It's maybe some weird 3rd party shit I don't know. It's pretty unlikely that it's a mafia power but could be. Maybe it's nothing of thos 3 things :p 1) Assuming redFF was town-aligned, why would he claim tracker rather than that power or whatever? That doesn't make sense. 2) Unlikely 3) Hey now that makes sense, because hiding flips helps MAFIA 1) Because redFF is redFF and wants to survive and thought he had to claim blue. 2) Agree 3) I don't think so. If that ability would be a 1-shot they totally wasted it. And no, I seriously doubt that it's a "normal flip game" but palmar gave a mafia the ability to hide flips every single day essentially making it a no-flip game O rly? read the sentence On February 25 2012 08:02 Toadesstern wrote:
I'm just going to ignore you from now on. On February 25 2012 11:43 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 11:37 Blazinghand wrote:On February 25 2012 11:32 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 25 2012 11:27 Blazinghand wrote:On February 25 2012 11:12 BloodyC0bbler wrote:On February 25 2012 05:55 Blazinghand wrote:
Jitsu:
I don't like the fact that after an aggressive, questioning, and generally pro-town Day 1, he's been basically MIA. This guy can be an asset to the town, but currently he's being lazy / lurking. I'd like him to contribute more today rather than just sitting on his D1 contributions and resting.
Tyrran:
After a decent case on redFF, he moves his vote onto me with a decent justification.
Then, for the past 48 hours (basically since the no flip) He has made two posts, one of which was like "oh hey there was no flip" and the other of which commented somewhat unusefully on what's been said.
;_; that's totally not chillaxin man. These guys need to step up their D2 game You mean this post where you said he was pro town? To me this isn't you pushing a case, this is you asking for someone to be more active. Nothing you has posed in any of your posts against jitsu is actually a case, its just pressure to be active. Give me something real not fake. I didn't say I pushed a case. Tell me where I said I pushed a case on Jitsu. Oh, hey, you can't, cause you're misrepping me like a member of congress You actively analyzed his posts and although never made a "case" you were obviously pushing him as a potential scum. However, to use your own words against you. On February 25 2012 09:15 Blazinghand wrote:On February 25 2012 09:12 Jitsu wrote:
And yet, my first scum read (Dirkzor) was later reinforced by DocH, who is now acting like a fool.
Pretty funny if you ask me.
How about you? Do you think i'm scum? I ask you, since DocH is obviously too afraid to say so one way or another. I think you're responding to this, the briefest and lightest of pressures, in a scummier fashion than I'd expect out of you. I think your town play is solid. I can't yet definitively say you're scum, and I have bigger fish to fry at the moment, but I don't like the way you've handled this. This divisive and generally unhelpful "do you think i'm scum" stuff isn't even what this is about. My main criticism of your play is the sudden dearth of content and pressure I've seen today. The proper response to this isn't to flip out and start asking people "DO YOU THINK IM SCUM HUH" or say "oh I have no idea what my reads are. The proper response is to make cases, hunt scum, and help town.Yet here we are. This here is actually a "case" you made yet you deny making a case? So does that mean that as all you have done is rehash peoples arguments and not pushed your own targets and thus not actively hunted scum you have already broken the advice you gave Jitsu? What about all the spam one liners and insults you have recently posted which is also not helpful to town. You are denying making a case, (although I believe you did, making a case even if its only used as suspicion is still a case), and have not been helpful to town at all today, and your "scum hunting" is spotty at best so that would make you a hypocrite and thus must be scum by your own reasoning. I didn't say I didn't make a case, I said I didn't say I made a case. You said I said I made a case and I said I called him out. just for hilarity purposes: that's a lot of stuff you say :p On February 26 2012 06:18 Toadesstern wrote:
oh there he is \o/ On February 26 2012 22:14 Toadesstern wrote:
I'm still here but apparently I post to much according to wbg so I'm active-lurking now as well ❤ On February 27 2012 07:09 Toadesstern wrote:
RoL buddy, why you still alive? On February 28 2012 05:51 Toadesstern wrote:
am doing a big post about wbg right now to explain what he's doing :p On February 28 2012 07:53 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 07:51 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
K man, if you guys really want to lynch me go ahead. I'm not arguing a stupid uphill battle anymore against the dumbass town and scumteam when I have school work to do among other things. If you think killing me will help then win then glhf k On February 28 2012 09:38 Toadesstern wrote:
inb4 wbg day-suicidebombing
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Read ver's guide a bunch of times and learn better scumhunting. You weren't really able to explain your convoluted logic for finding scum and I ended up not understanding why you even suspected WBG at all. You were very focused on odd coincidences and WIFOM in this game rather than looking at how scum behave imo
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yeah.
also, I wanted to leave Dr. H alive because, if we killed him, we lost an avenue of reason. Oddly enough we were looking for reasonable players. We should've just shot randomly into the town and we would've been closer to winning because of the KP actually hitting. I knew i could reason with Dr. H because he was the only person apart from kita and syllo who was playing with some semblance of logic. VE was to some extent as well, but he was constantly against us, so we would've preferred that he died.
thanks to Palmar for hosting! (but please reduce the number of blues in the future :p )
EDIT: oh and sandro. come play in my next game. hosted...soon.
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Wait, if scum role-blocking stopped VE's shot, but VE killed cwave and end-gamed kita, does that mean cwave didn't roleblock him? He bought the "I'm kinda a vet" being the town role over Kita's claim/overall play? -_______-
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On March 13 2012 12:31 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
Read ver's guide a bunch of times and learn better scumhunting. You weren't really able to explain your convoluted logic for finding scum and I ended up not understanding why you even suspected WBG at all. You were very focused on odd coincidences and WIFOM in this game rather than looking at how scum behave imo
Well the issue is that I can't really explain that because it heavily realies on knowing if I am telling the truth or not which you do not know.
If I lied about X and Y to get A talking about X, Y and possibly myself I can't tell you that because there's no way I can prove to you that I did that on purpose (or more importantly why I did that on purpose), so I just sticked with my plan to just figure out mafia myself hoping that town would simply believe me when I tell them I did that on purpose after delivering RoL and WBG.
Turned out it was pretty hard to convince people to just lynch WBG or RoL :p
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On March 13 2012 12:45 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
Wait, if scum role-blocking stopped VE's shot, but VE killed cwave and end-gamed kita, does that mean cwave didn't roleblock him? He bought the "I'm kinda a vet" being the town role over Kita's claim/overall play? -_______-
yeah.
LOL.
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EPT
