EPTSurprisingly Normal Mini Mafia VII
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Mattchew
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##vote: MidnightGladius | ||
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Mattchew
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Mattchew
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On February 19 2012 08:19 gumshoe wrote: I have an aching feeling that Ech will flip green if we kill him ) : that opening move of his was almost as bad as mine and hes supposed to be good, I cant imagine him being coached by other mafia through all this. I hate it but its gonna have to be a no lynch unless gladeus says he eats babies or something. Maybe we can vote for one of the lurkers? Manner/michael? Zell? ##Vote: MidnightGladius Scumslip. You hang tomorrow | ||
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Mattchew
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Mattchew
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On February 19 2012 08:19 gumshoe wrote: I have an aching feeling that Ech will flip green if we kill him ) : that opening move of his was almost as bad as mine and hes supposed to be good, I cant imagine him being coached by other mafia through all this. I hate it but its gonna have to be a no lynch unless gladeus says he eats babies or something. Maybe we can vote for one of the lurkers? Manner/michael? Zell? ##Vote: MidnightGladius I enlarged and bolded what I thought and still think is a scum slip... scum know who are town | ||
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Mattchew
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Mattchew
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Mattchew
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steveling reads as town to me | ||
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Mattchew
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On February 20 2012 11:19 gumshoe wrote: Man I like you even less than manner, you are trying to discredit everything I've said not by addressing it, but by saying I post too much and claiming its Wifom to think about why scum kill, DYH and sloosh are also playing super townie, but they don't get shot, why? Because their fighting each other. Jaj was just fighting Mg who several other players have rightfully attacked, mafia is clearly trying to preserve all the small fights that are going on right now to confuse us, oh and don't give mafia much credit? What? Again were being caught in this mentality that mafia is playing badly, for gods sake why? Why are players only entertaining obvious scenarios and not at least considering several possibilities? Were only on day two, we can still try and ask ourselves what ELSE could be going on. Also i asked you for a read on steveling, you just said he feels towny, kinda like how I said ech feels towny, should we lynch you because of that scum slip? Please just give me a bit of a read on why you think Steveling is towny. It'll be a good opportunity for you to provide some evidence to back up a claim, which you haven't done so far. i said that Steve reads townie. thats much different than what you said. plus it was asked of me | ||
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Mattchew
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On February 20 2012 11:55 EchelonTee wrote: Gumshoe's respond to my concerns about WIFOM & jaj is actually pretty dam logical. Gumshoe should not be lynched today. He's putting in a lot of effort; when scum do wild, crazy plans, they do so to try and make it seem like they are being constructive and such. Gumshoe actually IS putting in a lot of effort. Mattchew, you sound A LOT like you did in Werewolves, and not at all like you sounded in TL Mafia L. Have you simply shifted your style, or are you scum? I can't comment on ongoing games i dont think so its kinda unfair to bring that up. I do have a response to this. I am playing different then mafia L because this crowd is much less intimidating and much smaller. | ||
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Mattchew
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Mattchew
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i am almost caught up on reading the thread / filters. | ||
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Mattchew
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On February 20 2012 12:23 DoYouHas wrote: You are tunneling me incredibly hard slOosh, and I am legitimately worried that you are going to get your way, especially since I have stopped pressuring you. If that happens, you are going to get your own Simberto moment. Take a deep breath, step back, and refocus. Don't get timid just because you were wrong about me. P.S. I seriously loled when you pointed out my fail counting. I didn't even realize that I was off until you spoke up. he did the same thing in newbie but it wasn't tunneling it was leading the town to vote the right way | ||
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Mattchew
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On February 20 2012 12:33 gumshoe wrote: I...believe you. Your right, all you've done is play a safe game, I'm just biased against you for accusing me and I apologize for that, what can only sound to me like an honest plea has convinced far more than any case. ##Unvote: MidnightGladius As for your case on Alderan, I agree with it, but I think right now accusing DYH will accomplish more because I cant see sloosh's beyond angry conviction as Scummy behaviour and killing DYH will answer so many goddam questions, Furthermore I really feel that DYH hasn't as much addressed the accusations against himself as much as he's dropped his attack on Sloosh and taken it up against more obvious players, like you. That said If both Sloosh and DYH are town and we lynch DYH and then lynch Sloosh because DYH came up green, we are that much closer too losing. Midnight I'm willing to vote for alderaan and manner/Mitch. I'll follow your lead as to which one. Also I've sorta seen connections between Alderaan and DYH so if alderaan flips scum I think our vote on DYH will be much more consolidated. thank you for both proving my previous post about the 2 of you true. lets go get the real scum | ||
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Mattchew
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On February 20 2012 12:42 slOosh wrote: TOWN ARE YOU TRYING TO GO FOR NO LYNCH AGAIN??? We have ONE Lynch. ONE. If you want to FOS someone else you better have a good reason why you aren't voting DYH or Midnight or Echelon or whoever. We find and lynch mafia ONE AT A TIME. this. 100x over this | ||
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Mattchew
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On February 20 2012 13:32 slOosh wrote: You're looking really scummy to me right now MG. Unless you provide good reasoning why you think DYH is town, it is absolutely incriminating that you would bring up a new lynch suspect "who apparently isn't even on anyone else's radar". he could just have wrong reads... which is what i believe is the case | ||
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Mattchew
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On February 20 2012 23:39 gumshoe wrote: Zell I want you to think back for a moment, remember the start of the game? DYH accused manner and manner had that wonky response for which DYH said he was mafia, this happened pretty early in the game so I am inclined to believe that they are not both mafia. Unless you are suggesting that DYH convinced one of his teamates to sacrifice himself that early on(which isnt outside MY scope of possibility but most people tend to be a bit less imaginative then me) Your accusation against mittch is valid if DYH flips green. in which case mittch looks just awful. So save your accusation for then, right now it feels like your trying to crumb suspicion on mittch not for this vote, but the next. As if you've seen the hit your team is about to take and feel the need to ensure that a mislynch happens tomorrow on one of the most obvious suspects. That said I am paranoid at the moment, so I'll drop my vague suspicion of you. Right now we are discussing DYH, no one has offered a defence for him despite the fact that if someone tried hard enough they could pull a case together because of how seemingly active he's been. So I think scum are now trying to distance themselves from him. Heres whats I think is useful to hear right now in my opinion. A defence of DYH before the psuedo deadline and suggestions for where to go if DYH flips green or red. me on if DYH flips greed: If DYH flips green we need to start taking safe bets, so a Mitch lynch would be good in that scenario. i am matt... or mattchew. thank you. In response to zelblade, this is actually the most correct and logical post you have ever made. However, as you may have seen with my other posts, I am still reading but I have to vote and I have to play. I am half sheeping some of my town reads (based on their cases made) and half basing my votes off the filters off these candidates, all while catching up on the longest mafia posts thread I have ever seen (thanks gum!) ... I have not yet been a serious lynch candidate either which means that I don't have to be too transparent until you all actually think that I am scum. I have barely caught up reading (not to the detail that I would like but w.e). Would you rather me just read and get modkilled for not voting? Also, DYH was the obvious pick for today. Is it scummy when I havent read enough to make my own reads, to base votes off those whom I believe to be town's opinions? | ||
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Mattchew
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rgTheSchworz - lets give him a chance to post a little DoYouHas - should be lynched today Of these five, 2 or 3 should be the remaining scum team (+/- rg) This is who vig should shoot into in this order Alderan TKHawkins trackd00r Janaan zelblade Remaining Skeptical of EchelonTee When is night post? anyone can answer this | ||
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Mattchew
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Mattchew
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On February 21 2012 00:35 zelblade wrote: @matt I have been assuming that you have finished reading since you stated here about 12 hours ago: And no, I rather you not be modkilled, but I still want you to chime in your thoughts on the lynch candidate. A simple vote without any reasoning makes it extremely hard to hold you accountable if this turns out to be a mislynch. When questioned, you can simply reply "Oh I was just sheeping" This has no accountability and I dont like it. And I do agree that DYH's flip shows nothing about your aglinment. And another thing, do you actually think that gumshoes points on you are valid? To summarize this is what he points out 1) You are not mafia if DYH flips red because he pressured (not even with a vote) mannerkiss early on. 2) Im scum because I am suspisious of your posting, attacking the easy targert, and (in his mind) trying to set up a mislynch. 3) If DYH flips green you are red and need to be lynched. Do you really find this logical? You have already said that DYH's flip says nothing about you, which I believe is true. If so, why do you think that gumshoe's post - largely based off how you are only scum if DYH flips green? I dont see how you see this as "logical". I read DYH's filter and there are a bunch of good cases on him. That is my reason for voting him. I am accountable for my vote and my agreeing with others reads. gumshoe is wrong but I don't think he realizes that. | ||
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Mattchew
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Mattchew
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On February 21 2012 00:41 Mattchew wrote: As of right now rgTheSchworz - lets give him a chance to post a little DoYouHas - should be lynched today Of these five, 2 or 3 should be the remaining scum team (+/- rg) This is who vig should shoot into in this order Alderan TKHawkins trackd00r Janaan zelblade Remaining Skeptical of EchelonTee lets not lose this.. any thoughts? | ||
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Mattchew
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Mattchew
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On February 19 2012 08:08 GreYMisT wrote: I forgot we had ZBot and did a votecount, yay. Gumshoe (2): DimmuKlok, Steveling MidnightGladius (3): EchelonTee, jaj22, Mattchew DimmuKlok (2): Gumshoe, Alderan EchelonTee (5): Zelblade, trackd00r, blae000, MidnightGladius, TKHawkins SlOosh (1): DoYouHas DoYouHas (1): slOosh With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch! the day ends in less than 1 hour! does anyone else find it really fucking weird that we went from 5 on ET to lynching DK in less than an hour? | ||
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Mattchew
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i gtg for an hour ill be back On February 21 2012 01:27 Mattchew wrote: does anyone else find it really fucking weird that we went from 5 on ET to lynching DK in less than an hour? | ||
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Mattchew
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wompwomp but anyway... I don't want to de-rail the DYH lynching I think it is the right play... I also don't want a long winded case by case post about anyone on my list, I will (as you should all as well) provide more information as to why people are where they are later, (probably 2 or 3 of them during the next day cycle). you feel me? | ||
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Mattchew
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On February 20 2012 12:10 EchelonTee wrote: Hmm... I don't know, in L you were more vocal, and your Mason-Mayor plan was pretty flashy. In this game, with less intimidating/less people, it would be a lot easier for you to speak your mind clearly, without being all lurky and posting in a short way. Are we allowed to discuss Mattchew's previous, on-going game, Werewolves II, since he has already died in that game, or is this against the rules? | ||
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Mattchew
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On February 21 2012 04:03 Steveling wrote: ##Vote DoYouHas still not doing it right... you need to bold it | ||
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Mattchew
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On February 21 2012 04:04 Janaan wrote: I just woke up as well, and I need to leave for class soon. I'll post what I can in that time, I may have to cut it off short, though. I'd really like to see exactly why Mattchew is thinking the way he is. This post gives absolutely no context for why the 5 players he mentioned were chosen for the list, and I really don't like that one bit. Until he gives a reason, it's no more than another fairly useless list of his own personal scum reads. I do find it interesting that this post isn't directed to the town on who to lynch, but to a vig, when we have no guarantee that a vig is in the game. Is this a scumslip revealing information on the set-up? I'm not sure. I think that's all that I can really say about that until Mattchew gives us more reasoning for his list. no its not a scumslip... idk if theres a vig for sure, i just assume in a normal setup there is one... its a valid assumption...I also addressed why i posted a list that way.. so read and then try again | ||
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Mattchew
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On February 21 2012 04:21 Alderan wrote: Sorry for the hiatus, but I'm back, lets rock. Ok so here's some voting analysis I did about the Day 1 vote. In the last 30 minutes of voting 7 people Switched to Dimmuklok in this order: Trapd00r MidnightGladius Zelblade Jaj22 Sloosh TKHawkins EchelonTree This is a kind of switch that I have never seen before, and what it tells me is that mafia were extremely scared to no lynch or we were previously targeting a scum member. The leader prior to the lynch was EchelonTree who was coincidentally the lynch pin in the voting (pun definitely intended). Situation 1. Fear of no lynch: Mafia feels confident they are not being targeted in the least, and thus starts pushing whomever they feel like they can get votes on to. The only concise and irrefutable case at the time was mine on Dimmuklok so it was a perfect fit. The voting was in dissaray, so much so that MidnightGladius even makes the comment that the only people that are going to be able to be lynched are him and EchelonTree, so we need to decide something. Then Trapd00r leads off with the "Oh hey, Alderan's case was pretty good, lets take it into consideration now". 20 minutes later, we have a misslynch. Situation 2. EchelonTree is scum This situation hinges around the idea that ET was leading the voting prior to the end of the day, and managed a 20 minute shift of votes to, for better or worse, let him live another day. The idea is this then (this one get's a little WIFOMy but bear with me, it's logical), mafia are scrambling, looking for any case they can get a bandwagon on, identify mine, and jump on it using the town's fear of a no lynch as leverage to save their own and lynch a towny. Those not voting for ET that switched to Dimmuklok- - Sloosh - Zelblade - EchelonTree Note about Situation 2: Trapd00r seems more town in this situation than in Situation 1 as he had a vote cast on ET and was one of the major ET critics. Can't rule him out completely, but definitely if Situation 2 is correct he is leaning town. Well which do you think, Alderan? Well, I think situation 1 is the most logical in that everyone pretty much knew at the time of the vote that there going to be a no lynch unless a drastic change was made, so scum supporting ET would not have created a huge movement off of him, because that can only raise suspicions. This is WIFOM of course, which is why I listed both options instead of just Scenario 1. My next post will be analysis of Trapd00r, which should give us a nudge in the right direction about which of these cases happened. mafia didn't and wont fear a no-lynch... Lynching is pro-town, so to see a lynch go by and no one die was probably the motivation for most people to switch their votes. Your case wasn't that good so stop patting yourself on the back for it. They lynched a lurker (which is retarded in a newbie game cause you never know how much activity your gonna get out of anyone who signs up). I think its situation 3, 4, 5, 6... a bunch of townies saw a no-lynch and said oh shit we won't get to kill scum today. x amount of scum saw an easy hide out for a mislynch and helped it through | ||
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Mattchew
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Mattchew
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all switched from ET to Dimmu outstandingly quickly. | ||
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DO YOU?! | ||
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YOU WANT IT | ||
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On February 21 2012 05:06 Mattchew wrote: Zelblade, trackd00r, MidnightGladius, TKHawkins all switched from ET to Dimmu outstandingly quickly. This set off an alarm, so I went back and read the exchange of the final hour before the mislynch. The four of them take over the thread here CLICK ME or for those of us to lazy to click and re-read + Show Spoiler + On February 19 2012 08:57 jaj22 wrote: TKHawkins? Gumshoe? Anyone? I'm thinking this is so tough to get a majority that we might even have picked scum. On February 19 2012 08:58 MidnightGladius wrote: TKHawkins, you mispelled it. It won't get counted. On February 19 2012 08:58 trackd00r wrote: hawkins you wrote wrong!!  On February 19 2012 08:59 slOosh wrote: Copy paste one of our votes On February 19 2012 08:26 zelblade wrote: Im pretty sure that DYH has stated that he will not be around for the lynch, and a few hours after it. Which solidifies the notion that he is scum. I seriously doubt a townie DYH would just dump his vote on such a weak read heavily based on his expactations of sl0osh, formed on ONE game. He is a good player, and this doesnt seem like him. On February 19 2012 08:26 MidnightGladius wrote: We have less than an hour to reach a consensus. How many people are even active right now? Mattchew, I thought you wouldn't be around. Why are you voting for me? On February 19 2012 08:28 zelblade wrote: Midnight, can u adress the case posted by ET? What are your thoughts on him after his defense and what do you think of his case on you? On February 19 2012 08:33 MidnightGladius wrote: People who seem to be active right now: 1. Me 2. zelblade 3. jaj22 4. Mattchew 5. Janaan 6. gumshoe We need to make a decision. The town gains nothing from a no lynch. We have 30 minutes. Looking at the voting list, there's no way we can get a majority on anyone by EchelonTee or me. Make up your minds, or else Day 2 is going to be a mess. On February 19 2012 08:35 trackd00r wrote: Lynch time is approaching. ET, I just hope that you keep posting good cases like that. Even though I disagree with MG lynch, your last posts are making up my mind. I'm going to unvote by now. As for the candidates we have now, I think that our biggest option is DimmuKlok. Yes, it's been a while since you haven't posted good content. This post caught my attention: Proving your innocence is something that you should be doing subconsciously when playing as town. You know that you are innocent, and that should be enough to show your confidence to us. I expect a mafia player trying to ask for help, but not a townie. Your other posts were your defense against alderan, apologies and calling out lurkers. I think that scum is making it's best effort to hide your case, but as the lynch is coming, I have to cast a realistic vote that doesn't hurt the town. ##Unvote: EchelonTee ##Vote: DimmuKlok The is a chance that I miss the lynch, but I'll try to not. On February 19 2012 08:35 zelblade wrote: I am quite sure that both of you arent scum. Can we get a switch to DYH? I will add my vote onto one of you guys if neccessary, but only to prevent a no lynch - as that would be disatrious. On February 19 2012 08:39 zelblade wrote: Just filtered DimmuKlok. Wouldnt terribly mind lynching him. Guys if you are here, please chime in. Dont bring up new candidates please. Also, those on gumshoe should switch since it seems like he wont be lynched if you are here. Its going to be hard to achieve a majority and we need every single one of you here, and if you are, vote for one of the four NOW. On February 19 2012 08:44 zelblade wrote: Gosh we are gonna no lynch at this rate. On February 19 2012 08:44 MidnightGladius wrote: 20 minutes left. Are we seriously just going to sit idly and let the first day go by? ##Unvote: EchelonTee ##Vote: DimmuKlok On February 19 2012 08:45 jaj22 wrote: I don't want to lynch DYH, as I think his posting was fine up to the lynch business. It's possible he felt it was the best of two bad options. DimmuKlok is plausible scum due to lack of contribution but also plausible scared-town. I'm considering him as a compromise vote. TKHawkins and Sloosh should still be around. On February 19 2012 08:46 EchelonTee wrote: I'm fine with DimmuKlok lynch. Obviously don want no lynch still dotaing. On February 19 2012 08:46 zelblade wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: DimmuKlok DYH will sadly not be lynched today, so Im switching to my 2nd strongest read (on the four current candidates) On February 19 2012 08:51 MidnightGladius wrote: In that case we still need 1 more vote on DimmuKlok to get majority. Where did everyone who was posting earlier go? I still don't have replies from: - gumshoe - Mattchew - Janaan gumshoe was active all of yesterday, and now he suddenly decides to disappear? At the most important time? And then Mattchew pops into the thread, posts a one-liner, and vanishes again? When he said earlier that he wouldn't be back until after the lynch? Christ in buckets. On February 19 2012 08:52 jaj22 wrote: Switching to DimmuKlok. That makes six, and seven if ET switches. Need one more to lynch. ##Unvote ##Vote DimmuKlok On February 19 2012 08:52 slOosh wrote: Not letting no lynch happen. ##Unvote ##Vote DimmuKlok Now tell me this doesn't look like teamwork. They don't even have to provide a reason other than "i don't want a no-lynch and I dont like the midnight case" Sloosh and Jaj get pulled into the lynching is pro-town atmosphere and then when 1 more vote is needed TKHAWKINS MAGICALLY ARRIVES READY TO CHANGE HIS VOTE WOO WOO. reading their filters they are all afraid to talk about one another... do a ctrl f of each MidnightGladius MG has 3 pages of filter, yet only mention zelblade once here + Show Spoiler + On February 19 2012 08:33 MidnightGladius wrote: People who seem to be active right now: 1. Me 2. zelblade 3. jaj22 4. Mattchew 5. Janaan 6. gumshoe We need to make a decision. The town gains nothing from a no lynch. We have 30 minutes. Looking at the voting list, there's no way we can get a majority on anyone by EchelonTee or me. Make up your minds, or else Day 2 is going to be a mess. he only mentions tkhawk once here + Show Spoiler + On February 19 2012 08:59 MidnightGladius wrote: In buckets! and a ctrl-f of track provides 0 results Zelblade Zelblade reads midnight from null to town very quickly and back to null again Ctrl-F reveals + Show Spoiler + On February 18 2012 14:02 zelblade wrote: I am null on MidnightGladius for now. His posts have been related to the setup as mentioned, but he did seem to focus alot on the setup in Newbie Mini Mafia III too. Could go either way for now. On February 19 2012 08:24 zelblade wrote: Now onto MidnightGladius. I do not believe that he is mafia. He seems to be playing really similiar to NMMIII, where he (on day 1 at least) constantly posts fluff and speculates on the setup. However, ET raises some good points against MG, and I would like to see his responses especially to the "scumslip" raised by ET. I am not willing to lynch him for now. On February 19 2012 08:28 zelblade wrote: Midnight, can u adress the case posted by ET? What are your thoughts on him after his defense and what do you think of his case on you? As for EchelonTee and MidnightGladius, The two of them were the main candidates for lynch today before the last minute switch to dimmu since the players present couldnt achieve a majority on either of them. Honestly, I had them pegged as both town. The main reason for my suspisions on ET earlier was for his sheep vote before going away without any sort of reasoning - and I expect more from him due to the fact that he seems to be a good and experienced player. His responses to my suspisions and the many other cases on him are also good, and he clearly addresses them, as well as posting a detailed case on MG. As such, I dropped my vote on him. I have also repetadely stated that MG is probably town - he seems to be playing similar to last game, with a tendancy to post fluff and speculation regarding the setup. I also didnt really find his actions condemning. However, having reread his filter and taken another look at ET's case, he does seem to have a tendancy to push only the easiest targerts. I would really like to see him make a few more reads. Another thing that is suspisious about the both of them is their actions leading up to the lynch. Despite apparently being convinced that each other was scum, they hardly did anything about it, hardly pushing each other. If my strongest scum read was closest to majority along with me, I would definately attempt to get as many as possible to switch off me and onto my scum read. I can understand their reasons for switching, but them not pushing harder seems wierd to me. For now, these two could, imo, flip any way. They could be 2 townies tunneling each other, a townie and a mafia going at each other, or perhaps even 2 mafia bussing each other (doubtful). Either way, my reads on both of them are Null for now. With Tk its 1 post leaning town + Show Spoiler + On February 19 2012 23:27 zelblade wrote: TKHawkins - As with Janaan, transparent. Even though I dont really agree with some of his reads and logic, I get the feel of townie trying to help from him. Leaning [green]town[/green]. with track he's null + Show Spoiler + On February 19 2012 23:27 zelblade wrote: trackdo0r - He has been transparent with his reads during the first part of the day. However, he has started to post less, and the content of his posts have also dwindled. Im gonna just quote you here: Do what you have asked me to do. Instead of apologising for your inactivity, post your reads, and push them. You have promised them though, and i will be looking forward to seeing them. Null for now. Trackdo0r His soft defenses and weak town reads on midnight + Show Spoiler + On February 18 2012 01:59 trackd00r wrote: -MidnightGladius has somewhat posted in the begging of the game. However, he does still have that flaw present in the past game, which is to make useless calculations and proportions about the mafia/town ratio. I feel that doesn't really contributes much to the dialogue. His next post have been better though, analyzing and commenting about the Echelon-sloosh clash and the not that succesful plan of gumshoe. I hope he keeps like that. Important to mention that those 3 players had blue roles in NMM3, so looking through their posts in the next days can make a clearer picture of them and their attitude to everything in general. On February 18 2012 11:39 trackd00r wrote: MidnightGladius: You are in the very edge of what I consider constructive posting and what is just repeating what others said. I look you more to the path of constructiveness, but I'm expecting more about you. Your posting was slightly better in NMM3, although limited still (you were vig that game). Be a little more aggressive, but that's all. On February 18 2012 12:54 trackd00r wrote: OK, fine. Now I would like to hear some analysis about your vote on MidnightGladius On February 20 2012 12:23 trackd00r wrote: Personally, I'm not convinced with MidnightGladius case. I don't agree with the reasoning that jaj and ET gave. I'm not going to get into details about that, since we need to focus in other targets that don't create chaos. His softest pressure in the world into friendly town read on Zelblade + Show Spoiler + On February 18 2012 01:59 trackd00r wrote: -Zelbalde has only posted once, giving advice to us and apologizing. This was his biggest flaw last game. We know that you are a busy person zelblade, but posting just once is fine, instead of refilling your posts with more 'sorry' and making you either difficult to read or a scum candidate. On February 18 2012 23:41 trackd00r wrote: Zelblade, I'm glad you are posting again On February 21 2012 01:15 trackd00r wrote: Regarding the DYH situation, I believe the best we can do is hold the vote to him. The only real and possibly working solution that scum can pull if DYH is red is to push other cases now. I agree with the points that Zelblade made. No one is going to jump into the spotlight and defend him. Next to nothing on TK + Show Spoiler + On February 18 2012 11:39 trackd00r wrote: TWhawkins This has been his only contribution so far: We need to hear more. Please, don't be shy. Come with some accusations. Your posts somewhat seem to you to look interested, but your post count says to opposite. On February 18 2012 23:41 trackd00r wrote: @TKhawkins: There is a huge difference between a player who posts lots of content less posts and one who post a few but deep and content. For example blae000 hasn't posted a lot of times, but his posts are good. Ech and gumshoe, in the other hand... TKHawkins Literally the worst post about a player I have ever seen... about zelblade... from "I don't see how he is contributing" to "Pro-town" IN LESS THAN 2 SENTENCES LOL + Show Spoiler + On February 19 2012 02:45 TKHawkins wrote: Zelblade Says Ech is mafia and... that's it? I don't see how he is contributing if he is only going to comment on one or two players. The stuff he says about Ech though is good. Pro-town, but lurking too much. Read these posts on Midnight. If they don't scream soft defense (and a little chainsaw defense too) I literally do not know what does. + Show Spoiler + On February 19 2012 02:45 TKHawkins wrote: Midnight I can't get a solid read on him. On February 19 2012 02:53 TKHawkins wrote: Blae, since I have you here, what do you think of Midnight? On February 19 2012 04:37 TKHawkins wrote: It's not that I don't think the point is generally valid. It's that I think it's self serving. It's like one blonde saying to another blonde that "blondes have more fun." Like I said earlier, I still can't get a good read on Midnight, and looking through filters neither can a few other people. Even your accusation starts with "oh, screw it. I'm making a case." That makes me think you don't even believe the accusation yourself. You even say the only reason you did it was because you were bored. If you have something more since then to back it up, please post. Otherwise there is no way in hell I'm voting for Midnight based on just that. On February 19 2012 05:50 TKHawkins wrote: ##Vote: EchelonTee He rides the coat tails of other people's thoughts + Show Spoiler + On February 18 2012 09:54 EchelonTee wrote: you're hilarious. DoYouHas, I'm soft defending gumshoe now. I guess you were writing up your post without seeing the updates. We have the same thoughts though. Let's lynch MidnightGladius. Or DimmuKloK no seriously, I gtg. I love the activity though, so refreshing  He then jumps along with jaj22's post and votes for Midnight. He would not be on my radar if it wasn't for that. I can't see a strong reason for the MidnightGladius vote especially with both the people voting for him not backing up their vote once it's questioned. On February 19 2012 08:57 TKHawkins wrote: Bah accidentally deleted my post because I was flipping through various windows. ##unvote: EchelonTee While I don't completely believe his read on Midnight enough to vote for Midnight, Ech at least followed through with his word and eventually gave a reason (abiet, giving people like me very little time left to change our votes). ##Vote DimmunKlok He's the best candidate we got right now. On February 19 2012 11:27 TKHawkins wrote: Alright, having reread some stuff after the flip, Alderan was the first to put up a case for DDimmuKlok and stuck on him. And he is another player posting his inability to read Midnight and some weak calls. On February 20 2012 05:29 TKHawkins wrote: Thoughts on EchelonTee I still don't buy the Midnight argument. There is sorta a WIFOM argument to his post's existence. Half the town had told him if he didn't post something against Midnight, we were lynching him. So, he posted something against Midnight. He'd post that regardless of whether he was town or scum. So he thinks Midnight voting Gumshoe is a terrible lynch push and comparing Gumshoe to FakePromise is a scum slip. Oh so pushing Gumshoe back into the center of attention. Ech thinks Gumshoe could be scum now. So that means Midnight's push to lynch him wasn't terrible. So your justification for going after Midnight has gone away right? Nope. On February 20 2012 11:28 TKHawkins wrote: That's the definition of WIFOM logic. Best not to over think it. As for your suspicions against me because I was against the Midnight vote. I couldn't get a good read on Midnight, and neither can a lot of people. The only people who did have a read on him were reading him as scum. That fact alone is odd and suspicious. I'm not sure Midnight is town, I'm just more comfortable following my own reads then blindly following somebody else's. On February 20 2012 12:08 TKHawkins wrote: I'm not sold on the logic of the Midnight read, but I'm not going to go after you anymore based on just a bad read. Track - from 1 question, 1 answer to pro-town + Show Spoiler + On February 18 2012 16:25 TKHawkins wrote: @Trackdoor, just a question. I seem to recall you being one of the few who didn't want to lynch lurkers. But your analysis seems to be mostly, this guy is posting a lot so he's town. Have you changed your policy on lynching lurkers or is this just your way to make them post? On February 19 2012 01:05 TKHawkins wrote: @Trackdoor. Alright, I get your explanation on the lurker thing. On February 19 2012 02:45 TKHawkins wrote: Trackdoor Pressuring lurkers to post. Makes reasonable statements about Ech. Isn't being super aggressive, but rather analytic. Pro-town read. I don't believe in coincidence... the same 4 people that hop from ET to Dimmu all think pro-town of each other and have almost all defended each other at some point?. | ||
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DYH you were already on hawkins a little read this through gumshoe read this carefully and quote it properly if you want to reply ald and steve i think you might have been starting to head this way, I will now take you to the promised land ET you might have been getting at this but idk where you were actually headed Janaan you seem to just want a lynch read this and want these lynches ##unvote Doyouhas ##vote TKHawkins | ||
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(i know this is a little WIFOM but combined with my prior posts it turns more into logic) | ||
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On February 21 2012 10:02 MidnightGladius wrote: Mattchew, that's brilliant. So brilliant, in fact, that I have to wonder about the false positive rate of the "no mutual mentions" method. If you look through the filters, the primary way that players mention everyone else is to do so through a list, town/null/scum style. Players who don't use such lists are always going to get "caught" by your method, which is why I think it's far less telling than you insist. You're right, I haven' talked to zelblade, trackdoor, or TKHawkins. I also didn't explicitly deal with Steveling, sloosh, Janaan, or DimmuKlok. The only players I've directly talked to have been those attacking me, or those that I've been suspicious of. Guess what, you haven't been talking to everyone, either. No one has! I'm not going to go through every other player's filter and do the same thing, because you should see the point. This method encourages confirmation bias, doesn't really discriminate between innocents and scum, and then sounds really really convincing unless you look at the bias in the process. lol... i like how scum pick out 1 part of a case and dont add it up with the rest of it | ||
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On February 21 2012 10:26 trackd00r wrote: Do you honestly think that we could do something so obvious like that? who is we? oh right.. you and your scum team... nice slip. Pressure brings out the best in people shocking they almost all came to the thread right away | ||
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On February 21 2012 10:31 Janaan wrote: First impressions after reading Mattchew's case again: My big problem with Mattchew's case right now is that he only really addresses connections (or lack of) between the 4 players. This is possibly useful IF you've already flipped at least one or two mafia, but until then, it's all just WIFOM. The case looks like it was originally thought of because these 4 all switched to DimmuKlok, seemingly simultaneously, but I'm just not seeing enough evidence here for ALL of them to be mafia unless the case is followed up with good analysis of each one seperately. so the soft defenses, soft null - pro-town reads (not just straight town reads) dont scream scum to you? really? | ||
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On February 21 2012 10:39 slOosh wrote: Not reading anything till you explain this. DYH will be lynched today. Unless anyone has substantial evidence as to why he is town, HE WILL BE LYNCHED TODAY. stop tunneling.. please | ||
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On February 21 2012 10:40 Janaan wrote: In my mind, they *could* mean scum. That doesn't automatically mean that they do. alongside everything else? do you want them to straight up tell you they are scum? remember when you voted dimmu? that case was 1/100th of the size and quality of mine... idc if you have an actual objection but you are not making any sense | ||
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On February 21 2012 10:57 Janaan wrote: Alongside what? So far, the only case you've brought about this is that they all switched their vote to DimmuKlok at approximately the same time, and that they haven't been talking about each other except in broad statements. That doesn't mean that all 4 of them are scum. It doesn't mean that they AREN'T all scum. I'm just telling you my opinion. I'm sorry if it doesn't make sense that I'm not seeing everything 100% the same way that you are. they all switched their vote to DimmuKlok at approximately the same time they haven't been talking about each other except in broad statements. zelblade - leans town and then null reads the other 2 trackdoor - soft defense of midnight and soft pressure on zelblade TK - scummy as hell posting including chainsaw defense, soft defense, and a contradiction about his read on zelblade not to mention the circle jerk between them that went on in the thread before the lynch to try and mask their voting intentions | ||
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This is Palmar's smurf (Palmar isone of the best scum hunters on TL, he found every mafia in this newbie game day 1) On December 05 2011 10:33 ElectricBlack wrote: If he is scum, he's the first scum I've ever seen actually trying to push the town away from lynching lurkers on day 1. I'd say I have a pretty strong town read on Velinath at this point. The only thing that worries me in his play is the lack of people under serious pressure, but I can sort-of relate to that, as it's already evident this town is going to be both active and hold a fairly high quality of posting. (post link) On February 17 2012 11:51 DoYouHas wrote: The point is not to lynch lurkers, it is to lynch scum. If a lynching a lurker is the best option we have near a deadline, then by all means, let's do it. But policy lynching is just a terrible idea. I am already looking suspiciously at the ET for espousing it. FOS: EchelonTee this is DYH pushing town away from lynching lurkers | ||
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Miller- You are just an ordinary citizen of the town of Liquidia, well, almost ordinary, unbeknownst to you, you sleep walk, and often end up visiting the graveyard and other suspicious locations, for that reason, you return Mafia to detectives who choose to check you. Millers are not informed that they are millers, rather they are given regular vanilla townie PMs. | ||
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if dyh flips green which anyone who is reading the thread objectively would presume, you and your sheep ET, need to shut the fuck up | ||
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On February 21 2012 12:14 EchelonTee wrote: After doing a full run through of DYH's filter in this game, and in his previous game, I can honestly say that WE SHOULD LYNCH HIM TODAY NO ONE ELSE. Why? If you do a side by side comparison of DYH's posts in each game, there's a really big gulf. I really don't know how DYH could have even brought himself to bring up a "meta" arguement against slOosh, because the meta against him is way, way more damning. Look at the first 5ish posts from each game: From last game: + Show Spoiler + On January 25 2012 15:24 DoYouHas wrote: There is no reason our first lynch should be random. We need to use the threat of lynching to put pressure on lurkers and suspicious people. This needs to start today. If we seriously consider a no lynch today all we do is encourage passive play. We should be creating opportunities to gain information and put pressure. The worst thing we can give the mafia is time. On January 26 2012 03:20 DoYouHas wrote: From the general tone of the posting so far I agree that today we are more likely to get mafia by lynching someone suspicious rather than a lurker. If people come up with better ways of getting lurkers active I am all ears. As for things I have looked at so far, I am not going to reiterate points made on MidnightGladius and zelblade but here are a couple of people on the lurker list whose first posts were very similar and I did not like. What bothers me in the first post is the second half. He is making the statement "That seems scummy." but unnecessarily longer and strangely worded. In his second post he tones down the strange wording a bit but more troubling is his espousing of a wait and see style. We need to be making discussion happen, not just letting it happen. This caught my attention after I had been looking at balt11t. It is almost the exact same post. Lengthy substitute for scummy, wait and see attitude (though even worse this time), and pointing to Fakepromise's questionable agreement with a random lynch. On January 26 2012 08:01 DoYouHas wrote: I believe zelblade is our best lynch option. Just look at what he did when thrust into the spotlight. He has been apologizing and clarifying posts (which were already pretty clear) ever since spl0osh criticized his second post. Instead of using the spotlight to voice his own suspicions or convince us of his innocence, he has tried to move out of the spotlight as quickly and quietly as possible, while avoiding offending anyone. While his initial posts weren't particularly scummy, his responses have been nothing but suspicious. ## Vote: zelblade On January 27 2012 06:17 DoYouHas wrote: I am willing to set aside my suspicion of zelblade for today in order to make my vote more relevant. As for the CosmosXAM vs FakePromise lynching, I find myself at a loss. Let me explain. CosmosXAM seems more scummy to me than FakePromise for a few reasons. Not only is this a weak first post that focuses on a settled issue, his second sentence says that even if we find scummy things in his posts, it is our fault for pressuring him into it. He shortly follows this with 3 questionable statements in his second post. First, he goes after FakePromise. This is reasonable, possibly bandwagoning, and easy. I expect someone who has been lurking for a full day could find something suspicious to mention that hasn't been repeated so often. Second, he overreacts to Chocolate's placing a vote on him and lashes back purely based on that. Third, he points us to this being his first game and how rarely he will be able to post. So not only should we not expect many posts from him, but when they come we shouldn't expect them to have quality. I don't really take issue with his third post and 4-5 have no content so I'll move to FakePromise. I don't have anything new to say on the things FakePromise has done wrong. I simply agree that his actions make for a very poor defense and he definitely is not pro-town so far. I do not agree with zarepath's defense of FakePromise. To me, it is equally likely for the explanations of 'no mafia would behave in the way FakePromise has / no mafia team would allow FakePromise to behave in the way he has' and 'FakePromise has played this first round very poorly' to be true. It is not out of the question. Especially since most of us are new players. In spite of CosmosXAM being the scummier candidate, I believe we gain more information for day 2 if we lynch FakePromise. Not only can we start to look at people who seem to have jumped on the bandwagon but we would also gain some insight into zarepath's motivations. I am torn between the scummier candidate and having more information. At the moment I am leaning towards CosmosXAM. In my real life mafia experience bumbling defenses like FakePromise's tend to be town who don't know how to act under pressure. I'm trusting that experience for now. On January 27 2012 10:10 DoYouHas wrote: Be very careful with that assumption. From the perspective of zarepath being scum I think there are only 3 possible likelihoods. 1. We lynch FakePromise, he flips town, and zarepath looks good for defending him. 2. We lynch CosmosXAM, he flips scum, and zarepath looks good for being the first real accuser. 3. We lynch CosmosXAM, he flips town, and zarepath looks the same. I left out the possibility of FakePromise flipping scum because zarepath's own actions make it very unlikely. Just look at the statements laced through his posts. If anything zarepath has been trying to get us to focus on who supported and attacked whoever is lynched. This makes it seem very unlikely to me that he would adamantly defend someone he knows is mafia when that person holds little to no sway over the town and is still likely to be lynched. It is far more likely that he has set himself up to defend an innocent or bus a fellow scum. He gains favor in the town regardless of the way the lynch goes. So, to counter your point, if zarepath flips red I think it is far more likely that FakePromise is town and it will cast even more suspicion on CosmosXAM. From this game: + Show Spoiler + On February 17 2012 11:51 DoYouHas wrote: The point is not to lynch lurkers, it is to lynch scum. If a lynching a lurker is the best option we have near a deadline, then by all means, let's do it. But policy lynching is just a terrible idea. I am already looking suspiciously at the ET for espousing it. FOS: EchelonTee On February 17 2012 13:31 DoYouHas wrote: ET, instead of jumping on every little inconsistency you find in order to go blow for blow with sl0osh, why not just make a note of it and present a more complete case later. Bickering can be useful, but I fear this is going to turn into Toast vs prplz. sl0osh, I dislike your attack on ET. Pointing out that both town and mafia can have motivation for the same action just looks to me like he is covering his bases so he can't be accused of not considering all the options later. And his calling you out was perfectly founded. You were an active poster in NMM3 who looked towards putting quality in the thread. If you suddenly went lurker on us it wouldn't be a stretch to think that you were organizing the mafia in their qt. On February 17 2012 13:56 DoYouHas wrote: I want MannerKiss to chime in. Let those opinions fly! Who looks scummy to you and why? On February 17 2012 14:05 DoYouHas wrote: Then allow me to do it again. Has nothing caught your eye so far? Nothing from gumshoe or ET or sl0osh or any of the other ppl? On February 18 2012 04:19 DoYouHas wrote: I think it is about time we start talking about who to lynch today. With the scheduling problems mentioned by a few people, I don't think we can wait too much longer. My current list of people I'm consdering voting for is sl0osh and MannerKiss sl0osh, he overreacted badly to a perfectly fine way of calling him out. Everything in his exchange was just an extended version of OMGUS (attacking the person who attacked you only because he attacked you). I think it is too easy to dismiss sl0osh's failure to see the reason behind ET's actions as his standard confirmation bias. Not acknowledging that ET's initial reference to him was purely to get him talking, not to frame him as mafia. I also thought that whole post about ET's tone was just a big pot of confirmation bias. MannerKiss, his fairly immediate response to me calling him out told me he was paying attention to the thread IE, actively lurking. The two explanations for which would be a new townie unsure of what to post, or a new scum unsure of what to post. The one-liner back at me and his lack of a response to me trying to call him out a second time make me feel it is more likely the latter. Notice anything different? In his last game as Townie-Detective, he posts MASSIVE amounts of content, reads on MULTIPLE people (scum reads, not town reads), and tries to keep town atmosphere productive. Just look at those blocks of text. In this game, he isn't even CLOSE to this amount of content. He starts with the same "don't lynch lurker" sentiment, sure, but this only shows that he knows what is the correct thing to say. In my first game as scum, it was very easy for me to say "policy lynching is bad, people who say it's good are scum", as DYH did here. Instead of being analytical and open, all he does is try to draw out MannerKiss, and present a bad case on slOosh. Why do I think this is a bad case? He says that slOosh "overreacted", in an OMGUS manner; I do not think this at all. I prodded at slOosh, and he prodded back HARD. That screams confident, asshole townie to me, not scum at all. That DYH pushed a case on slOosh based off "meta" is laughable... what, that slOosh is willing to argue and defend himself = scum? Note that these posts end around page 10-11 for both games; at the same point in time, relatively DYH has a huge disparity in the amount of content compared to last game, and this is only in the early game. At this point all he has done is shadowed my opinions on everything, which I find hilarious; as he has already made slOosh his enemy, all I can guess is that he is trying to follow my reads in the hope that I will agree with him (aka MG=scum, TK=scum, Janaan=town). Even in the cases he make, he brings up pretty shallow things like MG's reaction to the ET vs. Sloosh debacle, or that TK=scum because he thinks Janaan is scum. Wat. DYH defense, and his cases just sound completely half-hearted and fake. This cannot be the same DYH from last game, or even the DYH from the NMMI obs qt. It's a scum DYH, I'm certain. btw you answered your own accusation here... he was a dt in the last game... he had more information that game | ||
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On February 22 2012 04:43 trackd00r wrote: I've read some of TKhawkins filter. Two things caught my attention. 1) The way that he misspelled his vote to DimmuKlok. You had a lot of trouble trying to get it right didn't you? The thing I see strange is that at first, you didn't have any problems unvoting ET. You formatted the vote just fine. Then you had a typo at your vote. When you tried to correct it the first time, you did a mistake that it could have been easily avoided as you unvoted ET in one twink. I'm starting to think that your scum team told you to misspell the vote to add an enormous state of pressure in these last minutes, not only once, but twice, with the goal of checking who was active and who was nervous of a no lynch to occur, to then preparing their decisions to who kill/watch for. Some people (including me) jumped to correct your mistake. One of the most active on those minutes was the recently shot jaj 22. That's why I think you had intention behind those typos. 2) In your last post, you expressed your thoughts on me in a very unnecessary context, which was me, you, zel and MG being targeted. You jumped into your defense with soft points to zel and MG, but regarding my posts, it was a quite long. I've been noticing this. Why do you think I'm the most pro-town player with only supporting this fact with 3 posts? There are other players out there who are preforming way better than me. I'm leaning toward the idea that your sucm team, again, is telling you to buddy me even more to prove mattchew's point even more and pushing me more to a scum candidate the next days. I find this behavior very weird. I think mafia are using Tkhawkins, one of this shiest and lurkish members, to stir the pot without putting them into the spotlight. What do you think? what do i think? your bussing your teammate WOOOOOO bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus bus | ||
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On February 22 2012 04:51 EchelonTee wrote: Are you even thinking? He posted those reads and all that content on D1, BEFORE he made any DT checks. He did absolutely nothing D1 this game except light, ineffectual pressure. It's not solely meta. DYH just.. hasn't been very pro-town at all and it makes me kind of sad. And while it's endearing for him to post that "you have to kill me today", he could've defended himself effectively if he had it in him, as in if he KNEW he was town. Mattchew, can we stop the town vs. town hate fest that is about to explode? Don't tell us to shut the fuck up, you're needlessly being an ass. We have to work together to get shit done, because it's assured that scum team will be working together to make us hate each other. That said, I stand by my support of your scum list. I find it funny that everyone disagrees with it; gotta be scum team saying "oh shit" in QT. at school. will post bigger later. where the hell is rG? so then dont lynch a townie in DYH vote hawk | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On February 18 2012 11:39 trackd00r wrote: I can't explain how tiring is to re-read like 5 times every filter. I haven't thought of a good case yet but some posts are revealing alignments and behaviors of each of you. I have no other option that expressing me my reads. Let's start Steveling: For a moment, I thought that you would have a more cooperative attitude towards the thread, but the only post which I've seen of content is this one: After that, you only attacked gumshoe, targeting mannerkiss with no reason whatsoever and post content less posts regarding lynches + random fluff. I'm expecting a lot more of you. You have been reading the thread long enough to build some accusations. EchelonTee: What's with the over aggressive and 'flashy' way of posting? I thought that after your talk vs sl0osh your posting style could have changed, but instead you post short lines which clearly lack a basis. My suspicion towards is raising because we don't need these kind of posting here. It looks like you want to work by your own. I hardly see any attempt of trying to lead the town to a healthy discussion. Instead, you are creating a confusing atmosphere to us. What is your plan? Which are your goals? Your intentions are not very clear... Probably the most confusing thing you did in the whole game is jump to vote at MG just after jaj22 opened a case against him. Seriously? No reasoning? Not any argument behind? Please, take a look to his behavior. I find it really scum and definitely NOT pro-town. This also applies to your earlier stand against sl0osh. MidnightGladius: You are in the very edge of what I consider constructive posting and what is just repeating what others said. I look you more to the path of constructiveness, but I'm expecting more about you. Your posting was slightly better in NMM3, although limited still (you were vig that game). Be a little more aggressive, but that's all. DimmuKlok: Please post more. You have only targeted the most obvious players at that moment. Also your 1st and 2nd were very fluffy. If you don't contribute more you will get targeted. Alderan: He looks very town for me at least. You made your stand clear from the start and you are pressuring Dimmu. Looks very neat so far. Mannerkiss: When you get back home, you'd better have good reads/accusations because your absence is really hurting us. Your semi analysis in your last post targets common players as well. I want to see more. jaj22: I don't have a clear picture of you yet You have been replying a fair amount of posts and looking forward information. I wouldn't vote for MG that early though, but it's up to you and we'll see how things come into the light after some hours. blae000: Perhaps you've only have made a few posts, but they are good quality ones. He looks to have good intentions. I would like to read more about him though. TWhawkins This has been his only contribution so far: We need to hear more. Please, don't be shy. Come with some accusations. Your posts somewhat seem to you to look interested, but your post count says to opposite. Janaan: Hard to read. He has good intentions and makes good points, but I still i want to hear more from him. Looking forward to his posts. gumshoe: OK i'll be honest with this one. Many times when I saw his posts, i just the feeling to grab my laptop and smash to the ground. I'm pretty sure that everyone is conscious of this posts and ideas. He has been slowing down the posting for a while and in fact has given good well developed opinions against jaj and somewhat to MG. Anyways, that drama we saw in the first hours didn't really made a good organized discussion later on. I'm glad that your are calming down, gum. DoYouHas Very active, pointing good posts and having a very good analysis in his posts. A very good town read from him. sl0osh Your posts have been more concrete after the clash with ET. You are slowly getting to that style I loved about you back in NMM3. I'm expecting you to build a very good solid case in the future. That would be it. I really want to see EchelonTee with more productive and well developed posts. His individualism in this thread make me feels he has the most scummy behavior. I'll wait to your response before I cast my vote, specially the one regarding the MG jumping. On February 19 2012 23:27 zelblade wrote: Im posting my reads in case I die tonight. I would have prefered posting this closer towards the end of night, but am posting it now as I have school tomorrow and need to go sleep now, and will not be online from around now to about 5.00 KST (+8). Gumshoe - Gumshoe being gumshoe as usual. I feel like he is trying to help, although his logic, as pointed out, is pretty bad. I am dont get why he keeps insisting that people who didnt outright attack him and call him mafia are suspisious. I am leaning town on him for the moment. This is a gut read, as he could easily be mafia with a really wierd and flashy playstyle. Bale000 - Leaning town at the moment. His posts, whilst little, are filled with content, and he is transparent with his reads. He really should post more though. Alderan - His inital posts were good, and he was also the first person to call out dimmuklok, applying pressure onto him. Even though dimmu has flipped town, I still believe that alderan simply had a wrong read as dimmuklok did seem pretty scummy. His posts also generally make sense, though he, as with bale, needs to post more. As such, I have a town read on him at this point. Mattchew - I am still suspisious of him for obvious reasons. As said, MannerKiss was already pretty scummy, and his sheep vote on MG feels wierd. Leaning scum. Steveling - I dont think that the no lynch thing was a scumslip. Seems more like a newbish mistake to me. However, he has been tunneling gumshoe all game. Could be either 1) Town convinced that gumshoe is scum, and annoyed at his posts, or 2) Scum picking the easy targert to push. I am unsure on him right now. Null. Steve, if you are (1), give us some reads. Other than gumshoe. I understand that you might be annoyed with gum's posting right now (understandable), but sometimes you need to step back and take a look at the big picture. Being overly focused on one person may cloud your judgement and could just easily lead to confirmation bias. If you are (2) just claim scum kthxbye. trackdo0r - He has been transparent with his reads during the first part of the day. However, he has started to post less, and the content of his posts have also dwindled. Im gonna just quote you here: Do what you have asked me to do. Instead of apologising for your inactivity, post your reads, and push them. You have promised them though, and i will be looking forward to seeing them. Null for now. Janaan - Transparent. His response toward's Hawkins' FOS and gumshoes accusiations (or w/e) was really clear. I like his posts. Leaning town. TKHawkins - As with Janaan, transparent. Even though I dont really agree with some of his reads and logic, I get the feel of townie trying to help from him. Leaning [green]town[/green]. jaj22 - Has been repetadely calling people out - and has also been making sense. Whilst I dont really agree with his MG read, he is most likely town in my eyes. Now onto Sloosh and DoYouHas. As I have stated, I find it extremely suspisious of DYH's actions leading up to the lynch. Though he has given his motivations for advocating the no lynch, I still find it a little wierd, especially regarding his attitude. If he was indeed being stubborn on sloosh as he says, I would have expected him to push harder with something more convincing than this: Still, his responses against sloosh's case is good and seems valid. This doesnt clear him in my eyes though. Moving on to sloosh, I agree with DYH - he has been really hyprotical regarding DYH, and a good portion of what he accuses DYH of can apply to him as well. What I reallly am interested in would be sloosh's response to this. At this point though, I am fairly convinced that one of them is scum. Doubt that they are both scum, unless this is an elaborate bus which I highly doubt. As for EchelonTee and MidnightGladius, The two of them were the main candidates for lynch today before the last minute switch to dimmu since the players present couldnt achieve a majority on either of them. Honestly, I had them pegged as both town. The main reason for my suspisions on ET earlier was for his sheep vote before going away without any sort of reasoning - and I expect more from him due to the fact that he seems to be a good and experienced player. His responses to my suspisions and the many other cases on him are also good, and he clearly addresses them, as well as posting a detailed case on MG. As such, I dropped my vote on him. I have also repetadely stated that MG is probably town - he seems to be playing similar to last game, with a tendancy to post fluff and speculation regarding the setup. I also didnt really find his actions condemning. However, having reread his filter and taken another look at ET's case, he does seem to have a tendancy to push only the easiest targerts. I would really like to see him make a few more reads. Another thing that is suspisious about the both of them is their actions leading up to the lynch. Despite apparently being convinced that each other was scum, they hardly did anything about it, hardly pushing each other. If my strongest scum read was closest to majority along with me, I would definately attempt to get as many as possible to switch off me and onto my scum read. I can understand their reasons for switching, but them not pushing harder seems wierd to me. For now, these two could, imo, flip any way. They could be 2 townies tunneling each other, a townie and a mafia going at each other, or perhaps even 2 mafia bussing each other (doubtful). Either way, my reads on both of them are Null for now. Well this turned out alot longer than expected. I understand that I dont really have many scum reads atm, but this is all I have now. Another thing. I believe that all of you should post your reads tonight. If you dont believe in the value of posting your town reads (MG), just post your scum ones than. The reason for this is simple - we want to have as much information from you in case you are shot tonight. Right ill be going to sleep soon. If any of you have any short questions ill prolly be around for the next 15mins or so and can type out a few quick responses, but dont expect any lengthy or in-depth answers. On February 19 2012 02:45 TKHawkins wrote: Gumshoe Has had to spend most of the game defending himself. Looking at what else he's done besides that, he suspects Gladius for spending too much time on commenting on the set up. FOS's MannerKiss. Comments on how DimmuKlok made an accusation against "the most obvious runt" (Manner) and and the "second most obvious seeming runt" (himself). Later comments on how Ech and him are now the most obvious votes and pushes for Ech. These are the comments of somebody scrambling to stay alive, not scum. Blae Quality post with a new argument against Ech for being too aggressive. Gets ticked at lurkers. Sees trackd00r and Janaan as pro-town. Blae feels very pro town to me. Would love to see more, but with the Europe timezone difference I think I will end up playing phone tag with him on the weekdays. Alderan Pressuring lurkers to post. Makes a case against DimmuKlok, Neutral until I can see more. Ech Throws FOSs and Votes out very impulsively. Does not seem to have a plan, and could just be trying to cause unrest. Why say you had more to say about MidnightGladius being suspicious and then not say anything more? It's almost as if he voted for Midnight and then forgot why he was going to say he voted for him. Which a town would not do. Suspicious. DoYouHas Mostly bogged down with Gumshoe. Trying to tag sl0osh as a good player who wouldn't make such mistakes. It makes no sense to try to meta analyze a player with only one game of background. DoYouHas is jumping on perceived mistakes. Suspicious. MannerKiss There is a difference between lurking by not posting every 4 hours and lurking by actively reading the thread and then just not posting on it. Suspicious because is following the thread and not posting. Steveling Pushes a no lynch and then says he just got confused on the day length. Pushes the gumshoe, who is already getting a lot of heat. Suspicious because no lynch is anti town, even if we had no real leads and because he focuses us back on gumshoe. Trackdoor Pressuring lurkers to post. Makes reasonable statements about Ech. Isn't being super aggressive, but rather analytic. Pro-town read. Midnight I can't get a solid read on him. Slo0sh Still think he reacted too strongly to Ech and DoYouHas accusing him. Why feel guilty as town? Focuses discussion back on Gumshoe, possibly to distract us from his scum buddies. Suspicious. Janaan Had a good explanation for a bad early post I pointed out. Seems to be trying to get other people's reads, so looks pro-town. DimmuKlok Seems to be overly emphasizing that he is new to the game and busy. So am I, but I don't feel the need to state that every other post. Neutral. Zelblade Says Ech is mafia and... that's it? I don't see how he is contributing if he is only going to comment on one or two players. The stuff he says about Ech though is good. Pro-town, but lurking too much. jaj Says flashy and aggressive play are not scummy when talking about Ech. But that's also how he is playing. Convenient eh? Would like more of an explanation about why Midnight in particular deserves a pressure vote, when there are so many others that could have used that too. the only other players to do anything like this are blae (who subbed out) and gumshoe (who loves the sound of his own text) and they did not use the same format as ALL 3 of these did remember these lists a. provided jack shit for town, b. were attempts to make them look "transparent" and c. are great lists for scum to shoot at if they were actually right and town | ||
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On February 22 2012 08:14 rgTheSchworz wrote: All right, halfway or more through the thread. It hasnt been that dense last 2 games I played which leads me to believe scum are inactive. But DYH should be lynched solely on the fact that he was for a no lynch on d1 30 mins before deadline. This is seriously anti town. Gumshoe sorta realises what hes doing, I dont think he s without clue yet he continues on. Well, red really, especially since DYH has been sorta coaching Gum. The lynch for today is basically decided but: ##Vote:DoYouHas As I understand I have replaced a noncommited and lurking person. Do I have any accusations to deal with? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=311554¤tpage=35#681 please read that.. also, DYH was in favor of not lynching town. NOT no-lynching... theres a huge difference | ||
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a. you don't know how to use the word WIFOM b. You then give a terribly illogical counter argument, which should be wifom as you said yourself c. My case (not idea) is not terrible. I stand fully behind and have 0 regret in posting it d. There are 4 scum.. why do i need more than 4 reads? If one of them is wrong then I will re-adjust but calling more than 4 people scum is not helping anyone and is what leads to mis-lynches. I have focus but I am not blinded e. "My biggest fear with Mattchew is that he will fixate on those four players and not do anything else." yeah no shit because thats your team and if they all get lynched YOU lose this game f. I started this "bandwagon" (hyperbole) because I DONT WANT TO LYNCH ANOTHER TOWNIE... WHY SHOULD I NOT TRY TO STOP THAT IF I THINK IT HELPS TOWN g. You want me to admit that I am wrong? But that can't be proven until after some of you hang. You want me to say I'm wrong so that you can get the town to mislynch another person and keep your team alive. this is rediculous PLEASE VIG, IF YOU ARE OUT THE, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE SHOOT THIS MAN On February 22 2012 07:57 TKHawkins wrote: This is just OMGUS. Mattchew's case is basically premised on the fact that several people were all online at the same time. It is terrible logic, but I'm clumping it more with gumshoe's poll as just a badly thought out idea then with Mattchew definitely being scum. That said, Mattchew's basically told everybody that he won't be making any more reads on any other players and is 100% convinced those 4 players are mafia. That is INCREDIBLY dangerous for town. Mattchew has basically told people he will ignore everything 4 players say and is seeking out confirmation bias in everything we do (spamming bus and meta, etc). This is not helpful. My biggest fear with Mattchew is that he will fixate on those four players and not do anything else. Why the heck start a bandwagon on me now when we are about to lynch DYH? All that everybody in this thread has done now is to tell the mafia not to kill me, midnight, zel, or track tomorrow night. Scum can easily manipulate the vote now because we all know who Mattchew is going to come after. He needs to be willing to admit he was wrong. Otherwise, he's going to tunnel the rest of the town to our defeat. With these next posts you want sympathy?... stop it scum On February 22 2012 08:07 TKHawkins wrote: PS. Mattchew, please don't call other players posting style "retarded." On February 22 2012 08:20 TKHawkins wrote: Sadly I was misinformed. The bandwagon seems pretty set on me (and continues to be shocked that I'm not here to defend myself better while I'm at work and unable to post). I'll be writing up all my reads and cases and posting them at/near the end of Night 2 to avoid my posts having any WIFOM impact on the night actions. | ||
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ARE WE FUCKING DONE WITH THIS SHIT YET | ||
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On February 22 2012 10:09 EchelonTee wrote: remember that time I said don't be an asshole? dyh was being fcking weird. I don't care if you spam meta metamtetmamteamtmaemtaemtpkmaeptmaet and other nonsense, don't act all superior and smug, its sickening. meta is a bad way to make cases... you all don't listen to normal logic, so I have to post crazy to get your attention... in the future think to yourself, if I take my meta read out of this case is it still a good case. Because the answer to DYH was no.. and this is not hindsight this is forsight Suggestion 1 for DYH being a bad lynch Suggestion 2 for DYH being a bad lynch Suggestion 3 for DYH being a bad lynch sloosh is town... he just tunneled really really hard on what he thought was a good case because it worked well for him in the last game Alderan is town because there is literally nothing scummy about his play at all. If we are right about the other 3 being scum theres no way in hell they would let him (or he would) post anything about the switch from ET to Dimmu, which he did | ||
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On February 22 2012 11:36 Janaan wrote: I'd agree that we probably have the best cases on Trackd00r and Hawkins, so I agree that we should focus on them first. We still have to focus on lynching one mafia at once. In the next couple days we can firm up our other cases so we can be ready for when we need them. there we go this is exactly what we need to do | ||
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I will never rule out I could be wrong (I don't think I am right now) but this will help any of you that could by some slight chance be town survive | ||
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On February 22 2012 11:47 trackd00r wrote: What really annoys me is how Mattchew threw the case, named a few people and just got the ball rolling. Just in 15 minutes he already convinced a couple of players of my supposed scummisness. A case with no substance and rushed at it's best is now changing the stance of the game. I still agree with some of his views in other players, but the way he presented the analysis was something I didn't expect to see in a mafia, comparing them with what I've seen. What? a. the ball did not roll because a townie got lynched b. there is a ton of substance in my case. c. that case took over 3 hours to create I combed through filters to make sure that I wasn't just spitting bullshit nor did I want any oversight In response to your whole post did you see DYH's post and say "hm a death post seems like a townie thing to do I should TT and then maybe people will think im town too" | ||
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why do you need sloosh | ||
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On February 22 2012 12:08 TKHawkins wrote: I have absolutely no interest in playing a game with you in it, nor deal with your trollish BS for another week. I have already PMed the mods about getting a replacement to take me out. This is my first, and last game of mafia on these forums. in what way shape or form am i trolling | ||
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if you're offended by my use of retarded I apologize but the sentiment still stands, that is a stupid way to post your reads if you were town. this is a role playing game... and I am calling out people... stop taking it to heart.. after the game I wont post like this and will be constructive with anyone's play as well as my own... but in game I am going to post the way I think, openly and honestly | ||
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also I am completely accountable for my reads and I stand by them, if they are not scum and we lose it will be my fault. the difference between me and sloosh is when townies don't vote his way he calls them scum, i just call them stupid | ||
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On February 22 2012 17:47 zelblade wrote: Matt your play is actively hurting town. You might not realise this but what you are doing is shitting the thread. We dont give a shit that you think that you are the best player here, and that you apparently consider your joke of a case to be 100% accurate. Several others have already pointed this out but you are being an ass , shitting on the town atmosphere and managing to offend quite a few players at the same time. I dont care what you think of yourself or your case but please stop for god's sake. Than again you are scum so just get modkilled already. Onto your case. I know that you are at least wrong on one count 100% (myself) and I am doubtful that the rest of your goddammed case is accurate. Yes, Hawkins and Trackdoor dont look good now, but it has absolutely NOTHING to do with your case. You state that it is a case that "has a ton of substance" - I call bullshit on that. Your dumb case has TWO points. Yes, TWO. Not to mention they are WEAK. I have already explained that the links you speak of are retarded - They dont exsist. The reason why i switched from ET to dimmu I have said a thousand times - I felt dimmu was the best possible lynch in that case. You also cant just assume that we are all scum because we switched. If you say we were all scum, I wouldnt give a shit about the lynch and just dissapear and watch town derp to a no lynch. We were active during the deadline - trying actively to find a good lynch candidate. Do you really feel that all 4 of us are scum - without a doubt? Your case is balls and you know it. Mattchew's case is horrible. For those that think that all 4 of his scumteam are scum, read through it again. Do you really think that it is strong? Do you really think that it holds any basis? The links between us are, I emphasise non-exsistant. This is also why I believe that Mattchew is scum - and his recent posts have been shitting on the town atmosphere. Do you really think a townie would do that? Dont you find Mitchy's sureness of DYH flipping green suspisious? I repeat, Mattchew needs to hang tomorrow. @ET - I do agree with you that there definately scum in the list. Not that I agree with that dumb case, but when you take a player who has been under heavy suspision, and two scummy lurkers, I dont see how you wont have scum inside. so you think that by doing everything i did (ie. calling my case "retarded" and "balls", alongside aggressively cursing me out) you are now creating this good town atmosphere that you tried to speak of? And no I don't think that I am better than anyone here, I just believe that my case and points are better then the ones previously brought up. but don't overreact or anything zelblade.. you can totally edit this post later... oh wait | ||
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On February 22 2012 22:26 zelblade wrote: Maybe I did overreact a little, but I dont like your attitude. And no im not cursing you out, just pointing out that your assholerly (something that you have admitted to doing) is irritating. I'll try to cut down the insults but I still think your case is bad. And I dont even get what that last setence means. you wrote far and away the most aggressive and rage-blinded post in this game thus far, to supposedly calm down the most aggressive asshole in the thread... pot/kettle black | ||
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On February 23 2012 00:43 gumshoe wrote: Zell i dont want to hear any more lynch options out of you until you read my case on hawk.(Oh and on a side note if youd lynched manners replacement two days ago you wouldnt have such a headache right now) raging out of games is exactly what mafia do, also your points raised against tk are just the tip of the ice berg, please read my case and adress it point by point, right now we dont need "this guy seems sorta suspicius" we need hard cases, so far the only ones that stand are mine against hawk and ech's against mg which can use an update, steve's track case deserves hounareble mention but as i said track is not a threat whereas hawk most certainly is or at least has been and hes far more aggresive. Also to matt, calm down with the chainsaw, we focus on hawk right now, he is the only person I know 99 percent is mafia. I am willing to be lynched or whatever if hes not. Note if you defend hawk in passing without adressing my case convincingley i will assume suspicius activity. Also dyh's case on hawk while less detailed stands if you want a second opinion. I will be home soon so ill be more active today than last night. If someone has another lynch candidate I would like them to post ONE strong case. Anymore out of one person will be distracting at this stage in the game. ZELL I am not listening to another word you say until you adress my case, your in thier a bit by the way so theres your personal incentive. you seem to be tunneling a little bit, and you are coming off conceited saying things like "we focus on hawk right now, he is the only person I know 99 percent is mafia." and " if you defend hawk in passing without adressing my case convincingley i will assume suspicius activity. " This is exactly what sloosh did, and that didn't work out too well | ||
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On February 23 2012 01:06 slOosh wrote: Ok. I'm back and catching up with the thread as I have been busy IRL and will be till tomorrow. Hopefully it won't stop me from responding and contributing. My stance on Mattchew - He is probably correct. I went off the assumption that everyone has the same logic as me and if they didn't do what I would do they would be acting illogical hence mafia. I did not consider that people can be inexperienced. I responded negatively to Mattchew because he didn't say why my case was bad and it looked to me that he was distracting my case. I still don't like the basis of his case, that he did some filter pickings and chose 4 people who avoided each other. However, I cannot argue with results - it has promoted discussion and the suspects are posting more content. Objectively he is producing pro town content, even though it is through antagonistic means. I have to say he is leaning town right now. However, I am still waiting for his own reads. Enough content has been flying around and I want to see him to present a good case. The goal isn't content but using it to strengthen a case and lynch the strongest mafia suspect. I'm also going to have to retract my read on Alderan. That was just OMGUS or paranoia, and I can see where he is getting his case on me (even though I strongly disagree with the logic he uses, but as I stated above I'm realizing that not using my kind of logic does not necessarily equate with scum). Following post will address Mattchew's 4. this is by far and away the best post in the thread... sloosh = confirmed town in my eyes now ET please talk to him as much as you would like | ||
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These are the remaining players. Remember there are 4 mafia in there. As much as you may want to believe otherwise. Also remember that unless we have a doc or some type of blocking role, there will be 1 less town come voting time tomorrow meaning that of the 11 remaining scum will control 4 votes and town will control 7. This also means if we mis-lynch and we don't have a protecting role, it becomes 5 town to 4 scum the next day. 1. gumshoe 2. rgTheSchworz 3. Alderan 4. EchelonTee 5. Mattchew 6. Steveling 7. trackd00r 8. MidnightGladius 9. slOosh 10. Janaan 11. TKHawkins 12. zelblade | ||
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On February 23 2012 03:49 gumshoe wrote: Matt the only way you'll die tonight is if you continue pissing off the mafia(and us to a certain extent) so much that they're just like fuck it and murder you. Jokes aside I know its a fun question to ask but lets not do the mafias job for them k? They'll lynch whoever they lynch, well pick up the pieces. Yes but I want to know if I should post a "pre-death" post with thoughts and reads on everyone. | ||
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so i guess here it is I want the WIFOM the fuck outta the somewhat off-chance of scum killing me tonight so that all it shows is that I am confirmed town and that my intentions with the "ruckus" i have stirred up were actually pro-town. These are the remaining players. Remember there are 4 mafia in there. As much as you may want to believe otherwise. Also remember that unless we have a doc or some type of blocking role, there will be 1 less town come voting time tomorrow meaning that of the 11 remaining scum will control 4 votes and town will control 7. This also means if we mis-lynch and we don't have a protecting role, it becomes 5 town to 4 scum the next day. 1. gumshoe 2. rgTheSchworz 3. Alderan 4. EchelonTee 5. Mattchew 6. Steveling 7. trackd00r 8. MidnightGladius 9. slOosh 10. Janaan 11. TKHawkins 12. zelblade First and foremost IMO these players are confirmed town in my eyes. Listen to them in times of confusion. Alderan - There is no way he would bus or bring to light that many scum with him also bringing up the first night's last hour switch. He puts a focus on a very scummy event and with no real cases anywhere to be found he brings up a lot of good discussion points with his posts Sloosh - he tunneled DYH based on meta and his own case. He blindly stuck by this and I realize that I could have his latest posts have proven him a valuable asset to town. He also could die tonight. Remember to read nothing into it other than it confirms him as town and having the right intentions with his posts. These are my town reads meaning that these players are most likely town but Gumshoe - Personally I hate the length of your posts. You sometimes use 300 words to say 5. That being said you have been completely transparent this entire game, too much to be scum IMO. EchelonTee - started off aggressive and pressuring. I like it. He posts don't have any hint of heavy scum-like over thinking to them (meaning scum tend to look at their posts over and over again to make sure they aren't scummy). He also was the first to vote MG and one of the first to point suspicion of Dimmu. Scum usually hops on bandwagons and doesn't usually start them especially early in the game at any level. There is the slightest bit of doubt from me which is why he isn't in the confirmed town list. Steveling - Didn't vote Dimmu day 1 which is a bit WIFOM but also logically not scummy. He posts a pretty big case on gum and then another on tkhawk. He likes my case a lot which has kind of blinded me to reading him for real. I would value someone else's opinion on him more than my own, however for me he reads town. My leaning town but if any of my scum reads are wrong pick. Janaan - Seems extremely wishy washy but this is a newbie game. This could be him not being confident in his decisions but is someone to keep an eye on My Scum Reads Click Me Click Me I think that people are starting to see more of the light in this post. It isn't meant to be the holy grail but it has focused a lot of people to make more cases and produce more content. So far all it is done has re-affirmed my believes in these 4 being the scum team. | ||
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1. I left rgTheSchworz off my list accidentally. He belongs with Janaan in the Null/least town read section. He's smart and should be able to contribute more. His reason for voting DYH seemed like he hadn't read the thread and with his late entrance and Gum's gazillion word posts I don't blame him. If someone on my list doesn't turn up to be scum and he's still not productive he should be looked at very very carefully. This means that of those 6 I firmly believe the entire scum team is there. With the possibility of there being no medic or vig, I think we have 2 mis-lynches so we should be able to lynch all 6 before the game is through. 2. On February 23 2012 03:22 gumshoe wrote: Oh on a side note I am suspicius of anyone who accuses MITCH because at this point that is an easy get me out of trouble accusation, mafia are better off just calling him an asshole or an idiot(valid accusation btw) MITCH is playing too risky and reckless, he's attacked pretty much everyone and hasn't been shy about it . He's so frustrating that I wouldnt be surprised if he turned up dead tonight, though I doubt it, he alone isn't a threat to the mafia, its when someone like sloosh backs him up that he becomes dangerous. Leaning town. I think that this is a bad policy. If I survive and you(talking to everyone) think I (or anyone else for that matter) am scum please speak up. I think that I have shown that I will not mis-judge you because of your beliefs. Remember I am in this game too meaning that I am a newbie as well. I am just confident with my reads based on reading a lot of other games and playing in a couple others. I am active in a ton of obs threads of games I am not in as well. 3. As Gum said, everyone thinking that they may die tonight should be doing everything in their power to give out as much information for town to work with as possible. The more information we have from confirmed town the better chance we have at winning this game. 4. Finally, werewolves has ended and someone (sorry I am rushed and forget who) brought up my meta being similar to that game. I was scum in that game, however there were 2 scum teams, so I actually ended up playing the best "townie" game I have ever played because I was actually hunting the other scum team. So yes my meta is the same but that should also indicate that I AM actually hunting scum as I was in that game. Also, that was a pm, 2 scum team game, you cant make that great of a correlation to this normal game. | ||
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I did have him as least scummy of my 4 but I really don't know if that even matters. Idk if we change the course I would like to hear all your thoughts on this | ||
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On February 23 2012 11:04 trackd00r wrote: Oh God... What a nightmare... I'm not in the best shape to discuss, but this is what is going to happen. We are 4/6 mafia/town right now. There are two possible ways for the mafia to win this game right now. 1) Rushing and hoping to kill a townie at night 3. When they see a no-way-back target to lynch, they will jump to it and just wait for the kill. They'll try to keep all their effort to secure the mis lynch by leaving the target unable to defend himself back, such as ignoring any alternative candidates or keeping the focus closed. If they choose this way to end, surely they will be very active for a while, and suddenly escape out of the radar when they accomplished their goal. 2) Waiting an(-) extra day(s). Why do they do that you would ask? Mafia can't easily pull off their votes to a single target when there are multiple cases. The sudden jump on one of them will draw a notorious amount of suspicion by us and leave them exposed. So, they'll try to extend their voting range to many suspects with the following goals: a) Not providing a proper direction to lynches. b) Causing a no-lynch in order to disorganize us even more. c) Leaving them with a cleaner background when switching votes the following days. With this plan, they will probably be depending of night kills, so the medic in this case is crucial. 3) Sacrificing one of their members this night. It will give them credibility to push their agendas to secure a mislynch the next day, granted they made a successful kill the night before. I think that this possibility is the less probable to happen. I feel that we need to watch out for every dangerous behavior present here that we can be facing. In (1) is constant pressure by them trying to get a lynch. In (2), it would be undecided voters and unclear opinions. (3) would be simply trying to find scumslips and contradictions. Well, those are my thoughts right now. Comments? Oh wait. I forgot how many of you are convinced that I'm mafia, so I'm not expecting a good feedback from all this. sigh. setup discussion isnt very helpful right now without any analysis on players | ||
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Meaning scum can bus and kill 0 - 3 straight nights and if we mislynch 1 time of those they win... meaning there are a lot of possibilities track I think we need to lynch certain scum and I think the only 2 I am still sure of is tkhawk and zelbade TKhawk is because of his completely terrible attitude to getting accused. He looks for pure sympathy to not be lynched and never provides any actual reason why he shouldn't Zelblade rages hard at me which is funny cause he is raging at me for being too aggressive. Its contradictory. I think sloosh you may have something with steveling but I believe in these 2 more. Steveling is a little risky to me to lynch today for a couple reasons.I like this post and I like this post. Both say that he is unsure of MG making me unsure of him. | ||
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On February 23 2012 11:11 Steveling wrote: I think my quotations were pretty obvious to go into trouble to explain. I hadn't yet filtered him obviously. I just had the impression of pro-town posting behavior. I made this case AFTER I filtered him and seen each post individually. And anyway,besides that, how on earth are you ignoring trackdoors and hawkings cases to turn on me? What's the reason behind this turn? I'm calling to your reasoning, you didn't listen to it on DYH case for which you said you took full responsibility and I didn't hold you accountable for that, because I reasoned things out. Do the same. well you used the wrong quote.. you used the feb 18 not the feb 21 | ||
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##vote trackd00r | ||
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I had a strange feeling during both of these... they both look townie because of their "helpfulness and organization" but really anyone reading the thread should know this right? they also both try to buddy you Scum Bromancipate from last newbie game ET Post from this game | ||
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On February 24 2012 01:32 gumshoe wrote: One just shows the status you the other shows echs opinions, your liable to be held accountable for opinions, cant be though for lists which makes them fishy, they don't seem too similar ) : I mean its just formatted differently.. Bromancipate puts that his reads are on SS in that past game... plus theres no more accountability in this game... if scum get a mislynch they win so it doesnt matter how wrong they are | ||
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On February 24 2012 04:01 gumshoe wrote: Track raises a good point, we have two massive lurkers, maybe they are our best option. no. and if you push this i will push your lynch | ||
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I alluded to this before but this person is EchelonTee + Show Spoiler + On February 19 2012 11:56 EchelonTee wrote: Post Game Thoughts I'm doing this kind of free-form and without pre-thought, so it might be sort of all over the place. First of all, my sincerest apologies to Timeaisis, Sinensis, and TheToast; I insulted/berated you guys to try and achieve my win condition. I hope you didn't take it personally and will still play TL Mafia. I'm still working on my playstyle for both town and mafia, and this game I might've gone a little too far at times. Personally: The Good: -Game plan: I essentially wanted to play a game similar to my first game (make big analytical posts that look convincing, but are utterly wrong), but I knew that I would have to be more active considering my two teammates we're being lurky. This worked out VERY WELL; even though my play was not as solid as it could have been, as I had a few slips of suspicion, by the end game, I had worked up enough cred that there was no way I could have been lynched over one of the lurkers. -prplhz: My attachment to prplhz worked better than I could have expected. At the very start of the game I knew that prplhz was a threat due to his prior experience with sinani. My initial game plan revolved around getting prplhz mislynched D2, then taking down the people accusing him (TheToast, maybe Sentinel or someone). However, prplhz busted out that shot on sinani and my game went to hell. Luckily, I hadn't made a real stand on prplhz and had been soft defending him by arguing against the logic on him. That, coupled with the fact that prplhz liked my reads, meant that when he became confirmed townie, there was almost no way I was going to be lynched. Confirmed townies can be very powerful for town, but this game showed the danger of Mafia buddying; I was in prplhz blindspot, and even if he had suspected me, he was not going to pursue me over others. -Sowing chaos while pretending not to: There were a lot of players who were disrupting town environment unintentionally. Prplhz, for voting kind of erratically without analysis (in a game full of new players, voting w/o analysis is taboo), Sinensis vote leader plan, Sentinel's aloof nature, etc. Because I criticized all of this less-than-pro-town actions, it looked as though I was trying to keep the town together, when in reality, by criticizing all of these people I increased discord. The Bad: -Looks accountable, actually not at all: My calling out of Timeaisis was not anti-town, in my personal opinion. If I was town, I could still see myself thinking that Timeaisis was a newbie scum. However, as prplhz hinted at, after D1 my appearance became much less assured. I didn't commit as strongly as I did before. If people had scrutinized the thread more, they would notice that I barely interacted with BF, and that my analysis on him only came after it was all but assured he was going to be lynched. I'm not sure how to rectify this; I feel that trying to appear like an over-confident townie for too long is dangerous, but if I shy away from that in later days, I look bad, as the obs QT furiously claimed. -we bad at making shots: This one, I'm not quite sure on, but I think the Mafia shots could have been better. We were only able to spot the blues after they both claimed, and we shot people with low town presence anyways. My overall plan was to shoot out the blues, because I felt that a lot of the scummy players I could get mislynched. It also was good that we didn't shoot TheToast, as he got medic protected, but still: I had no clue that Sentinel was blue, except for that small hint he left out. And of course, his claim rofl rofl. Do you guys think that the shots Mafia made were good? Were there any earlier signs that Sentinel was a medic? Also, as a rule of thumb is it better to try and go blue hunting, or to shoot dangerous townies with town-cred? -dat vet claim: It was fun to do, but it brought unnecessary attention. The Delay mechanic in this game was more powerful than I expected; it helped me hide behind the scummy/lurky townies. However, I should have just delayed, let the town speculate about what happened to the KP, then win the game with ease. -communication: we needed more of it, simply put. sinani dying so early was detrimental for this, of course. In General -Town needs good environment!!: The town in this game loved to argue with each other: prplhz and TheToast especially. Because TheToast comitted very early to a strong scum read on prplhz, prplhz was never going to fully back TheToast. Similarly, the discord sown by Sinensis calling people imbeciles, and Bluelightz list spamming, meant that the town had little chance. Towns don't necessarily have to be super organized, but they at least have to be cohesive. -always be willing to revise your opinions!: I'm not sure how much prplhz thought I was town, but because he didn't rly reasses me, I went unnoticed. Similarly, TheToast's strong adherance to his initial reads of prplhz, Bluelightz, and Sentinel meant that he had little leeway when the mislynches started piling up. TheToast's strong posting meant that a lot of the town followed him in those beliefs, and the lack of reassessment hurt the town. D1 reads are very very hard to get right, so trying to come up with the FULL scum team and push this for most of N1 is not the best. on the other hand: -be willing to go all out if you think/know you're right: TheToast could have gone after me harder. Sentinel could have crafted a better defense without claiming. Nisani could have defended himself way better. Part of the reason that I stayed alive was that I was willing to put up long ass posts defending myself. Vanilla townies need to be willing to put up the work so that the game can go on. -Tainted? Framer? I did not really get the point of the tainted and the framer in this set up. While having a RBer around, with no blues, is very interesting because the Mafia might RB into greens and assume there are blues, the Framer gives no notification, so there is less hindrence to Mafia. On the other hand, the presence of these factors may make town think that there is a DT, and they might become dependent on this notion. I think this was a bad thing for town, as they speculated a decent amount on blues that were never going to manifest. I had a fun time, and put a lot of work into this game, so I'm glad it paid off. thx to sinani and BF for setting up the Mafia for the win. BIG thanks to GMarshal and redFF for hosting, and for answering my numerous, nooby questions. TheToast, you nearly had me; with a more cohesive town you'll do just fine. He uses so many of these scum techniques in this game so confidently (it did work out really well for him last game). Examples: 1. Replace prplhz from the above quote with sloosh. Sound familiar? Sloosh was said to be the MVP in the newbie game before this and figures to be the biggest threat to a scum team. Even today ET votes Steveling (sloosh's gut pick) with a shitty ass case beside it. Also, when he sees me come into the thread, he barely pressures me even though he sees my similar style to posting as in werewolves, which he thinks is scummy. He then buddy's up with me too because he knows im about to bring the noise. 2. I essentially wanted to play a game similar to my first game (make big analytical posts that look convincing, but are utterly wrong), Big long analytical cases made this game = Midnightgladius, DYH Votes or puts suspicions on = Dimmu and Me (Mattchew) 3. His shear quantity of posts that are setup based, asking lurkers to post, or completely no-brainier fluff posts (I honestly don't have time to gather all these together but if you read his) 4. This absurd amount of WIFOM.. even if he calls it on himself.. he still posted it for everyone to read On February 20 2012 09:20 EchelonTee wrote: ....shit..... ....I wonder if Mafia is trying to get me to push a mislynch onto MG. On February 20 2012 09:36 EchelonTee wrote: This could be hindsight bias, but the fact that he was posting very constructively, while not butting heads with anyone and not posting TOO much makes it not unreasonable that Mafia thought he was blue. He would definitely have been on my short list for potential blues. I don't want to WIFOM myself out of a potential scum lynch, but shooting jaj, the guy who started the case on Midnight, and leaving me alive, the guy who wants to push MG, seems like really sloppy Mafia play to me. basically, if MG is scum, shooting jaj incriminates him more. Can you address my previous case on MG, and tell me whether or not you think it is valid? You previously stated that you do not think MG is scum. 5. His (how do I say this politely) "less than brilliant" plays. On February 20 2012 12:16 EchelonTee wrote: .....man I hope to god I'm not WIFOM-ing myself out of going after you. DYH's attack on you makes me like him less. Blae was going to be on my scum list, but since he was getting replaced I figured I'd let his new guy post more. I'll look into Alderan, I don't know how I missed him. Probably because he was lurking. By the end of the first 24 hour period (we have roughly 21 hours until then), everyone should post who they want to vote. Anyone who doesn't is hurting town, putting it into the same position as we were in D1. WTF is this? On February 19 2012 09:27 EchelonTee wrote: 1. i'm not good. why suggest this so openly. this is my 4th game playing. 2. as mattchew said, this could be a scumslip; he knows I would flip green and is planting this. After my aggressive opening towards gumshoe I dont know why he would support me as such. Thoughts? If he was town, I believe he would have not let gum say that his opening move was bad. And my scumslip post was a complete knee-jerk reaction by someone who hadn't read a lot (i.e. any) of the thread yet. Anyone would realize this wasn't the case that was paying attention. | ||
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1. I have been overly aggressive and spammy 2. I have created chaos in a town setting that needed focus 3. My reads were wrong and are constantly changing 4. I have had a lot of contradicting reads and actions in this game 5. I shut up MG and TK which is where pressure becomes too much pressure 6. My big 4 scum post was bad. The case was not strong especially in a newbie game where everyone is easy to pick on. I have let scum dictate my play, regardless of who the scum team ends up being, they have had a serious negative impact on my reads and overall play. Well WTF have you been doing? Good Question. What most of you don't know (I tried to breadcrumb it through my posts about gumshoe), I have never fully read the thread. I skimmed up until I joined, and then barely followed along until after jaj was shot. This lead me to realize that I probably wasn't going to be making any good cases. I tried to sheep sloosh cause I knew he was good town in the game before. Then I noticed the vote switch. In my first game ever (I was scum) we organized a HUGE ass vote switch last minute. The dimmu lynch brought back these memories, and then seeing exactly 4 people had switched from ET to Dimmu, I thought it almost as a sign from God or something. I followed up on those 4 by reading their filters. I remember (I think it was Adam497 or w.e) saying that he had realized post game that he should have known who was scum because of their refusal to heavily interact with one another. When I saw the minimal (and yes there was a lot of scummy) interactions with these 4, I was ready to be the hero. I then realized that Sloosh was getting his way this game. I did actually read and think his and ET's case was bad on DYH. So finally after realizing that I was not town's hero I went back and re-read the thread. This is why I am fumbling around changing my reads every 3 seconds in a time where we need focus the most. I am playing like shit. For that I honestly have to apologize to town and everyone playing this game. A lot of you called me on my shit play but I was too arrogant to listen. So what Mattchew? You're right this post reeks of scum as well. I know its a little overreaction based on only getting 2 votes but with scum team having 4 votes and me being town I realize that 1 townie vote on me could lead to inevitable death and loss. I've read this far, your post sounds terrible but maybe its honest, anything else I have to say don't lynch me because thats my win condition and I have to play to it. Don't give me sympathy for this post and you should still hammer on me to play better. If I survive and we do lynch scum I will do my best to provide better reads. | ||
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On February 24 2012 08:10 EchelonTee wrote: The reason why you have to think before you post is because you are scum. You have to carefully phrase how you are going to post it, so that it makes u seem unscummy, because if you post directly how you feel/think then it will expose you/ You are considering whether or not to tell me LOL YOU'RE SCUM and go balls to the wall, or to say LOL I WAS JK LETS BE FRIENDS. It has been about 1.5 hours, and you are definitely in thread. The correct, town response, would have been to say "LoL ur just using OMGUS, I'm obviously not scum". I was actually in class from 3:15 to 5:15 EST in Mahwah NJ, and then drove 50 minutes home Bridgewater, NJ and posted from my phone at the tail end of my commute around 6:05pm. | ||
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On February 24 2012 08:23 slOosh wrote: As perhaps seen by my pressuring Steveling after the night 2 post, I have suspected the possibility of Mattchew as scum. The possibility revolved around a Mattchew/Steveling/Alderan / ??? combo, so I wanted to see his response to me voting Steveling. This is why I think Mattchew is scum: The biggest thing is that he still hasn't posted anything. I'll quote myself here: Look at his post day 3 actions. He has STILL yet to post any original content AT ALL. He hasn't done anything constructive with the content produced by his plan, but instead just gave us some town reads and pointed out who he doesn't like with little one liner reasonings. Not contributing anything at all. This type of play is so Anti-Town, and firmly steps into the land of scum when the situation is MYLO and there is no reason why town should hide anything. The next point is observing how he shows favoritism to Alderan and Steveling. The couple things to note here: his absolute certainty that Alderan is town. It is absolute. And it is poor logic too. It's all based on his fixation that his suspects are scum and therefore mafia would not act in such a way => Alderan town. Using WIFOM as a basis for confirmed town reads? Pshh. Second bold line. Look at Mattchew's filter and ctrl f Alderan. He only quotes him once, and shows no indication of thinking Alderan brings up"good discussion points". As for Steveling: Wishy washy on him, but puts him in the most likely town reads section. Doesn't actually give reasoning but just some observations. Another favoritism post I forced out of him here: Not only has he not mentioned Steveling's stance on MG in his prior most likely town list, but is hesistant to vote him and resorts to mentioning how confused he is and how he wants to read over the filters, and then ignores this and moves onto trackd00r. Couple of soft evidence (stuff I wouldn't base a case off but definitely supports it) He directs blues. The first thought I had reading the night 2 post was, "Why did they shoot Janaan of all people" - I believe it a vig snipe as vigs are the most dangerous to scum right now - then I asked "How did they identify him as vig"? Remember this? The vig list with no explanation? He is fishing for blues and Janaan takes the bait here Absolutely no reason to make such a list as town. Pro scum agenda. I don't think it is a stretch to say he is experienced enough to know that my case came at day 1 before a possible detective check, and certainly knows there is almost no possibility to me being the 2nd detective after jaj22 flip. Instead of trying to help gumshoe think productively, he puts this in. Pro scum agenda. No reason to post the bold part. It is a town thing to make sure people don't WIFOM night kills but there was no danger for this at all. I'm guessing it is redirect of medic prot. In either case, if I'm posting my town reads I don't comment on how much I feel like they will die or not. In the least that logic should apply to anyone who dies, not just me. 90% of this case is based on me believing in my reads. I remember when someone else in this thread did that.... however I guess I unintentionally blue hunt... I actually just was trying to be like a lot of vets here and tell people they need a bullet. I did think you were gonna get shot... but the fact that you haven't is completely beyond me WIFOM.. oh and btw your gut feel read on steveling is not and should not convince anyone he's scum. I will never vote into a MYLO situation based on a gut feel | ||
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On February 24 2012 08:34 EchelonTee wrote: ok I believe you that you were away from thread, you don't need to tell me the exact details of your personal life :p i can show you online sched and car mileage too if you would like | ||
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yeah i dont wanna comment on this lol | ||
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there is no way sloosh and ech are this unintelligent... they are pushing a "case" on me because I think ech is scum and I didn't vote the same way as sloosh. Sloosh has been doing this all game. At first I thought it was just tunneling but now i realize that it has gone too far. to write an entire case about me centered around me making reads and believing in them is terrible. I wrote a 10x better case on myself and I know that I'm not scum. Gum I completely understand why you want to vote in hawk or schworz but here's why i disagree with you. a. they might be mod-killed which would make our voting mean nothing b. even if they are 1 scum or 2 scum we still have to take a large risk on voting someone to win this game. Personally, I believe we should take that risk now so as not to waste our time 3 days from now when we are in the same exact situation with no one budging on their beliefs. ##vote EchelonTee On February 24 2012 15:36 EchelonTee wrote: I also find this amusing because when you say "I have to say don't lynch me because thats my win condition and I have to play to it", by saying that it is "my" win condition, it means that it suits you to not die (scum or town), as opposed to "our" win condition, which would be to not mislynch a townie. This is just plain untrue. I don't know who our is (I have an idea) so it is my win condition, somehow you're playing this as a team huh? There is only 1 team in this game. You actually condemned yourself more than you condemned me here. To mattchew's defense: you say that 90% of sloosh's case is you believing in your reads, but now the fact that you dont believe in your reads is weird. As town, all you have are your reads. I can see that maybe you have lost confidence after last night's flip; I did too, but if you articulated why your reads still have merit, it would be easier to see you as town. Your utter loss of confidence, as I said, reminds me of my own pullback D3 in GMarshal's Normal Mini Mafia. My reads have changed because I realized the faults in them. I actually went into detail about why they were bad in the post you mocked before. thats ironic I'll consider anyone but trackd00r, if everyone is dead set against the Mattchew lynch. Really showing that confidence in lynching me. How can people see this as anything but like me, please like me | ||
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On February 25 2012 02:59 slOosh wrote: We are at 6 town, 4 scum. Right now we need 6 to lynch, which means we need all 6 townies. Mafia win if we mislynch here. It will be 5:4 and then one of us dies at night making it 4:4. Mafia win condition fulfilled. Mafia gain huge dividends by no lynch. While it does put us at 5:4 and gives us another day to talk, it also means mafia get one free kill. Additionally, an extra day of discussion is not worth an additional townie life, especially as it gives another day for mafia to clutter/ confuse the thread and there will be one less townie. Mafia are trying to stall and no lynch is basically setting us up for a loss. I've PMed GMarshal about the situation, as a similar thing arose in NMMIII where some inactives caused this kind of ruckus. It was resolved by reducing the required # to lynch to the majority of those voting. Here is the post. Hopefully we will hear good news and not have to resort to such risky lynching. As for who we should lynch: My point is that this is what scum look like. They give off the impression that they are helpful and active, but don't ever bother going the final step of taking the information and content in the thread and making a case to lynch mafia. I think EchelonTee makes a good point in noting how Mattchew's style of play has been with his suspicion on ET. It is weak and speculatory, inviting other people to look at him, but he doesn't vote for it himself until ET calls him out. Gumshoe, don't worry about the replacement scenario. If we were in an unwinnable situation, the hosts would have called it game by now. I am sure they are doing their best to resolve it and we should trust in them as they are the hosts. Now please turn your attention to the Mattchew case. You are a pivotal vote and you could determine fate of town. lol .. idc what you all think of me but if your listening to this then we lost long ago | ||
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On February 25 2012 02:59 slOosh wrote: Now please turn your attention to the Mattchew case. You are a pivotal vote and you could determine fate of town. ever feel like your being recruited? Darth Vader called, he wants his marketing team back | ||
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6. Posting or sharing any PM you receive from a host. don't bring that shit up in thread that you PM'd GM... thats bullshit | ||
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On February 25 2012 03:29 slOosh wrote: I never said posted or shared a PM i received. I said I sent a PM to him hoping to hear back good news from him. wtf could be good coming from GM.. Possible answers "they are going to be modkilled" this sucks cause if they arent scum we auto-lose "they said they'll post" this sucks cause itll be last minute (hi rg) and we basically have nothing to read on them Good news for you is that they are both town and getting modkilled cause that means you win | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
On February 24 2012 03:45 EchelonTee wrote: ...Honestly I think I want to lynch Steveling. His response to mattchew's post (regardless of Mattchew's alignment) was strange; he was all like "SHIT WE WON THE GAME WITH THIS GAIZ", which was pretty contrary to how the general town felt towards it. His D1 was not good (advocate no lynch, initial post is a Lol@gumshoe). I feel that all game he has only put down reads after suspicion was pretty well established. And no one has really addressed Steveling all game. I feel like he has slipped by unnoticed while having an apperance of contribution. ##Vote: Steveling LOL this is a LYLO situation and this, this right here, is ET's case for voting Steveling. A decision that could lose the entire fucking game. On February 24 2012 06:45 EchelonTee wrote: LMAO, I'm way more aggresive this game than last. I don't post setup posts when I'm scum to specifically avoid them. I don't use WIFOM when I'm scum to avoid them. When I'm scum, I actually play a MORE CAREFUL game. I find it hilarious that you're using out of thread stuff to try and prove things, fully contradictory to your meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta nonsense. The difference is that when I buddied to prplhz, I specifically avoided making any comment on his alignment until he was a confirmed townie. Not only is sloosh not a confirmed townie, but me and him had a BACK AND FORTH early game that made people think I was scum. Why the hell would I do that as scum? You're definitely scum now Mattchew. Thanks for clearing that up for me, and grats for not voting me even though ur making a huge accusation. ##Unvote: Steveling ##Vote: Mattchew His defense = "I know how to play scum better than this" WTF is that. Thats not a defense lol thats an excuse for shitty scum play. Then insta switches his defense to an attack on me without providing anything. Why would any town play knee-jerk reaction vote someone in a LYLO situation? He is willing to have town lose this game because someone voted for him. and you and sloosh bring up that I didn't vote you in that post... so the fuck what... I had 24 hours and still have like 7 to vote. This is ridiculous | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
On February 25 2012 04:01 Alderan wrote: He's scum. It's MYLO. Let's hit the known scum. I fail to see how this doesn't make the most sense. he said that he would vote him if he shows, if he doesn't show he dead anyway... it just adds an extra day | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
On February 25 2012 04:10 Alderan wrote: If he votes anywhere in the last hour there's probably no way for us to mobilize votes on to him. we can just lynch him tomorrow if he votes | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
et has been scummier tomorrow i want sloosh then the next day zelblade | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Mattchew
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Mattchew
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Mattchew
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
vote ET | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Mattchew
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
Ps if my decision is rash WTF is slosh and et's... Who made their decisions directly after I called out them | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
Sloosh et zel tk gum = scum team | ||
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Mattchew
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Mattchew
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Mattchew
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Mattchew
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
I don't want to start a shitstorm but i have to disagree with the mods decision to not mod kill TK is still IMO a mistake. As either alignment, to get away with not posting for over like 60 hours in a 24/48 cycle is straight up unfair, especially in a newbie game. Then to replace him in a MYLO town situation on day 3.... Idk I think it woulda been more fair to just modkill him | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
On February 21 2012 00:41 Mattchew wrote: Of these five, 2 or 3 should be the remaining scum team (+/- rg) This is who vig should shoot into in this order Alderan TKHawkins trackd00r Janaan zelblade | ||
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
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Mattchew
United States5684 Posts
DoYouHas 02-22-2012 06:21 PM ET (US) Mattchew wasn't a consideration when the game was balanced. | ||
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