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On January 27 2012 05:43 Jackal58 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 05:11 layabout wrote:
Stop bickering and lets come to an agreement about the plans that are floating around You have an individual named Palmar that has clearly stated he's above plans. So if we don't have everybody on board what good is the plan? Do we just skip him and let him do what he wants? Thing is this is the arrogant townie Palmar I'm used to seeing. So I have no desire to lynch him. So what plan do we devise that allows us to ignore the cowboy from Iceland.
Perhaps just "ignore the cowboy from Iceland" as a plan? Simplicity in form, effective in design. 
I kid, I kid.
Jackal, are you adverse to discussing the lynch before we hear from everyone? Who are your top 2 candidates right now?
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On January 27 2012 06:05 risk.nuke wrote:
I'm back.
I'll do exacly as palmar. I'll give my ONE obligatory vote to the person I think is town the most.
The vote system seems to me like a very pro-town mechanic. Having a vote circle completly nullfies that.
Conclusion: Votecircles are dumb
FoS: VE, did you seriously just attempt to lynch palmar day 1.
Yes, because lynching someone I think is scum is scummy. Pull the other one risk. Names don't move me. If he's playing like scum I'm going to vote for his lynch. I removed my vote because the idea of giving his one vote to someone pro-town actually makes more sense than the vote-circle idea, but I think he honestly thinks people should just give them their votes, and I think that's asinine and senseless this early, and it's scummy as sin to me.
Care to tell me why wanting to lynch scum is scummy?
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On January 27 2012 06:49 risk.nuke wrote:
Maybe you only thought about it for ten seconds or I wasn't clear enough. I will not tolerate vote-circles. Votes are a pressure-mechanic. Everyone gives votes to who we think are town. Mafia can't lurk which is reason enough not to have any dumb vote circles. But also we get more information on eachother. We can see who gives votes to who, track it and look for suspicious patterns. This will force the mafia to act like they play pro-town or suffer loss of votepower since it would be pretty damn obvious if 4 players are trading are always giving votes to eachother they will be forced to give their votes to townies and try and aqquire votes from townies. The very good thing about having a system where everyone can send votes to whoever they want is we can judge people by who they give their vote to.
Maybe you didn't think about it, or maybe I wasn't clear enough, but you never answered my question risk. If I think that Palmar is scum, perhaps you can enlighten me on why putting my vote on him is scummy? Your random FoS on me is meaningless without the answer to this question, so I'd appreciate an answer.
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On January 27 2012 07:07 risk.nuke wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 06:57 VisceraEyes wrote:On January 27 2012 06:49 risk.nuke wrote:
Maybe you only thought about it for ten seconds or I wasn't clear enough. I will not tolerate vote-circles. Votes are a pressure-mechanic. Everyone gives votes to who we think are town. Mafia can't lurk which is reason enough not to have any dumb vote circles. But also we get more information on eachother. We can see who gives votes to who, track it and look for suspicious patterns. This will force the mafia to act like they play pro-town or suffer loss of votepower since it would be pretty damn obvious if 4 players are trading are always giving votes to eachother they will be forced to give their votes to townies and try and aqquire votes from townies. The very good thing about having a system where everyone can send votes to whoever they want is we can judge people by who they give their vote to. Maybe you didn't think about it, or maybe I wasn't clear enough, but you never answered my question risk. If I think that Palmar is scum, perhaps you can enlighten me on why putting my vote on him is scummy? Your random FoS on me is meaningless without the answer to this question, so I'd appreciate an answer. I think it's proposterous that you would legitimatly think palmar is scum based on that. Then I thought it's very suspicious that a townie would try to get the best scumhunter in the game lynched asap.
So you're under the assumption that Palmar auto-rolls town every game because he's a good scumhunter - is that what you're suggesting? Because nothing you've just said makes any sense unless you're assuming that Palmar just can't be scum this game.
Anyways, this argument can wait because obviously I'm not voting for Palmar anymore and you're not voting for me. Can I assume that given the opportunity and means, you'd lynch me today?
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On January 27 2012 08:11 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 08:09 risk.nuke wrote:
Yes, wbg. that everyone understood. Assuming nobody here is full on retard they can figure that out.
Wbg are you telling me you approve of vote circles? Yeah, I fully approve of them. I'm going to give Palmar some time to shape up, but if he doesn't agree with this (if he's town he should, it's completely logical) then he should probably die. Anyone who opposes the vote circle plan: please provide reasoning as to why it's bad.
WBG, I'm iffy on the vote-circle, and here's why: we can't know who the extra votes are going to. Scum are going to kill someone, and whoever tried to give that person a vote is going to have an extra vote. Will scum design the kill to give themselves extra VP? We can't know the answer, and we won't know even if we lynch the receiver. That's the fundamental flaw in the plan: it provides the most opportunity for everyone to have the same number of votes, but it ensures that someone is going to have more than everyone else and we have no idea if we can trust that person or not. At least by giving a vote to someone who appears pro-town in-thread, we can keep who gets the extra votes within our power.
RE: Palmar - Palmar's agenda right now is accruing votes from sheep - he's not going to approve of this plan regardless of his alignment unless he's trolling us. The question becomes: would scumPalmar put stick his neck out like this, bucking the only semblance of a nearly universally accepted plan just to try and gain some VP for the next cycle?
I think he would, because he's likely to succeed regardless of his alignment. But town may disagree. I'm willing to kill Palmar today if he doesn't shape up, but I'm also willing to give him until tomorrow. Right now he's one of only two scum reads I have. I'll echo you and say that we need more activity.
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Based on his play in Election Mafia, I'd say that his BM and general abrasiveness transcends his alignment. I'm not sure if he's talking about trading out ALL of his votes, but if he is then yeah, that's shady. It seemed to me like he was leaving it pretty ambiguous intentionally, but maybe I missed something.
At any rate, risk.nuke is at least taking a stance on one side of the issue, which is something even I have yet to do...so I don't feel comfortable voting for him just yet. In general, I'd say that his chainsaw defense of Palmar is more damning than his BM - which actually makes me LESS suspicious of Palmar on the whole.
The more it's discussed, the more it makes sense to just come up with a system of vote-trading that lets us all have the same number of votes. That way, everyone is still accountable for the direction of the game, and we can see any scummy attempts to sway the flow of votes.
VE - For Transparent Trading Through Circle-Jerk
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I vote D1 we circle jerk and see what happens. Just saying "oh you know, there will be people who don't want to follow the plan" the way LSB did excuses that kind of behavior - the plan doesn't work unless we all agree to it. If we can't come to a consensus, then we're all going to just have to do whatever the fuck, and I already know where my votes are going in the event that happens.
Now, the lynch.
##Vote: Paperscraps
On January 27 2012 13:02 Paperscraps wrote:@ Palmar When you get done with your whole "I'm a badass" routine, can we hear some reasoning behind why you are against the circle trade system? or anything that is actually constructive at all? + Show Spoiler +I understand you are being crazy right now to tests people reactions and stir up a bit of commotion.
This set off alarm bells. My main problem is that he doesn't sound like someone with a town read on Palmar. He sounds like someone who already knows Palmar's alignment is town.
I'm going to be honest - I'm also starting to think Palmar is town, but it's not based on a belief that I think he's acting scummy to test reactions. It could be, but that's not why. I think Palmar is town based almost exclusively on the fact that scummy players like Paperscraps are defending the way he's playing.
On January 27 2012 13:02 Paperscraps wrote:
@Everyone I have another idea for trading votes. I want to bounce it off you guys to see what you think. The main idea behind the circle trading system is to keep an even spread of votes across all players. They way we have it setup, the mafia will get to pick and choose who they want to give more vote(s), either townie or fellow mafia. One way to kind of keep the mafia on their toes is to split up everyone into 5 groups of 3. Then during the night you choose at random who you would like to give vote(s) too.
My thinking behind this is that it gives mafia less information as to where votes in particular are going. Randomness though is a double edged sword. This can either hurt town or hurt mafia.
So, it seems almost everyone is on board with the 1 vote circle trade system. I think this is the best way to minimize mafia tampering and vote gaining. If anything it severely stifles their ability to accrue a mass amount of votes over the course of one night, which is a possibility if some mafia seems particularly pro-town to the majority of people.
In the first paragraph he outlines a needlessly convoluted plan with the main goal of "keeping the mafia on their toes" by "randomly choosing" who votes go to within smaller groups of townies.
But in the second paragraph, he makes sure to agree with the circlejerk plan. Why? If you support the circle-voting plan then why are you coming up with more options? The day is half over bro, it's time to start thinkin about that LYNCH.
On January 27 2012 13:02 Paperscraps wrote:
My FoS is on MeatlessTaco right now.
But not your vote. Why? Whether we've come to a consensus on how to deal with the votes or not, we still have to lynch someone today. That starts with votes. Now, I agree that MeatlessTaco doesn't look great with his lack of reasoning for his votes and blatant sheeping, but lynch? Not to mention the fact that you're in favor of this circlejerk plan...but...
On January 26 2012 12:10 MeatlessTaco wrote:
Townies, we need a plan. The vote system could cause us problems if we don't stick together. We'll need to ascertain what vote-rigging abilities the scum have, to do this we need a circle of trust. We'll all trade votes in a circle instead of doing it haphazardly. Any vote manipulation by the scum will result in merciless lynching.
It was MeatlessTaco's idea! He was the first to suggest it! If it's "the best option", then why are you the most interested in lynching the person who brought it up first? My guess? He doesn't even realize that MT brought it up first. He's just looking for the easiest target, and right now that's someone who suspects Palmar and voted risk.nuke for no reason.
Paperscraps is scum
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The point is that if they don't agree with the circle-trading plan, then it doesn't matter what "suggestions" you make, we don't have enough time to come to a unanimous decision. Or more accurately, we don't have time to discuss a lynch AND decide on the plan. But the more pressing concern is the lynch, because we only have one more day to decide that.
And you don't vote. Are you afraid to be held accountable for your vote? Are you waiting for someone to tell you who to vote? You can always change your vote if you change your mind. What if YOUR vote spurs the scummy bandwagon that you catch the WHOLE SCUMTEAM on?
It just stinks of reservation and stalling man, that's all I'm sayin. No need to get all "some people are dense" on me.
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OMG we still have another day til lynch? /facepalm
Sorry guys - I was just looking at the votecount and realized I've been riding peoples ASS about time and I didn't even realize the deadline. My bad.
I feel like an asshole.
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On January 28 2012 08:58 layabout wrote:
Should we be lynching someone active that may be scummy or someone who is lurking hard like Node?
You should be lynching someone you think is scum - if you think Node's relative inactivity is more scummy than any of the active players, then you should vote Node. If you think we've got a better shot at lynching scum in the more active players, read over the cases present or build a case on who you think it should be and vote them.
Node's inactivity is pretty standard if I recall correctly, but his vote on Palmar kinda worries me. I mean, even with his cavalier attitude, Palmar is definately not the scummiest person in the thread.
Who are you looking at inside the active players layabout?
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On January 28 2012 10:05 Paperscraps wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 09:36 layabout wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Paperscraps last post] +On January 28 2012 09:24 Paperscraps wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 05:13 Jackal58 wrote:
Scum can gain voting power by killing the people they trade votes with.
And don't vote for the cowboy. Palmar is town.
Any reasons to why you think Palmar is town? The way the game is evolving right now, Palmar seems to be gaining a lot of town support, thus more likely to get votes on N1 if we do the free trade system. Am I the only one wary of this? There is no possible way to know whether or not he is town or mafia on D1. This is a game of wits and Palmar is a smart fellow, just saying. Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 05:05 Palmar wrote:On January 28 2012 04:24 Paperscraps wrote:On January 27 2012 22:57 Palmar wrote:
The difference between finding mafia to lynch and finding townie to pass your vote to is night and day. Remember, if you just randomize it, you still have 70% chance of hitting a townie. Add in even a tiny bit of thinking and that percentage goes up.
When you're trying to lynch scum it's the opposite, and you will be influenced by outside factors (it's harder to get wagons started on scum). However, this is your decision and your decision alone, so you have complete control over the outcome.
There is no such thing as safe play in mafia. It's not safe to do the circle of trust because we don't know what abilities the mafia has, and we cannot possibly gain an advantage through that method. With no advantage we don't know how the game is balanced. "I just chose at random" This justification completely negates what your plan is trying to do, which is to get scumtells from peoples justification on their trades. Another contradiction By your logic and probability, townies should trade their votes at random N1, ~70% chance to trade to another townie. So, which one is it Palmar? Free trade + justifications or randomized trading. On January 27 2012 19:57 Palmar wrote:
whatever, I don't have the energy to argue with dumb.
I will not be following whatever plan you guys cook up. I will be following my own plan. This is so anti-town. Solidarity is crucial, not dissidence. You are forcing the town to do one of two things, follow you or lynch you. Seems like a scummy power play to me. ##Vote: Palmar You're not helping anyone with that. You're just being dumb. Seeing as you're probably town you're working directly against your win condition. I didn't suggest anyone randomized, I was just pointing out what a great starting point we had even if we simply randomed. Don't try to see things that aren't there. Palmar, why the lack of open-mindedness? The benefit of circle trading N1 is much safer than free trading to people based of some perception we got during D1. I don't disagree with a free trade + justification plan after N1, but N1 circle trading seems the best options, until we get some solid reads during D2. I'll leave my vote on you until you give some valid benefits to free trade over circle trading N1.
Does anyone think no lynching is an option D1? The mafia have a set KP, thus we only lose 1 townie and D2 we have a ton more information to work with. Odds are we will lynch a townie today. I am fine with lynching this guy. What's this i am gonna leave my vote on you crap? He is also hinting at a no-lynch on the basis that we will likely hit a townie, which is just plain bad If you think I am guilty, why not vote me up then? I am leaving my vote on Palmar, because he is being unreasonable. Hopefully he will post something more constructive, instead of just calling people "dumb". I on the other hand am open to suggestions and willing to change if people post logical arguments. 4/15 chance to hit mafia, 11/15 chance to hit townie. You are willing to lynch me right now and that would be very bad for town. Why the sudden change from purple and viscera to me? Why is a no-lynch so frowned upon? I understand that we can only kill mafia by lynching, but D1 odds are against us.
Because the odds are against us all days, not just D1. Do you think scum are going to withhold their NK because they haven't figured out who's blue yet? More information would be nice, but a slightly lessened chance of killing scum (lynching D1) is better than zero chance of killing scum (NL D1). If you want to see the No-Lynch in action, go check out XLVIII.+ Show Spoiler +Scum Victory - not really because of the No-Lynches, but please note the chaos that surrounds EVERY lynch. NL is hardly ever the answer.
I'm going back to do a reread and a couple filters, so in the meantime...
##Unvote: Paperscraps
I don't think I'll be able to get the support I'd need, and I'm starting to doubt you're red myself. Not many scum would suggest no-lynch like that...especially since it's so frowned upon in most towns. I'll be back later tonight with my vote.
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I'll hammer.
##Vote: wherebugsgo
lol @ people who think I'm scum.
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Super Bowl Village. I'm here now though, good lynch guys.
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I'm only giving away one of my votes, and as I said, I already know who I'm giving it to. I'll reveal tomorrow, after the NK has been resolved.
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Ya ZBot says it's Dawn - my f5 key hates me 
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I sent LSB 1 vote. He's been making the most sense, and I would have given him both but I feel a VE wagon starting and I'll be God damned if I let you guys lynch me.
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I don't like an LSB lynch considering he has one of my votes and that would remove it from the game
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I'd support a Palmar lynch though - I'd support a Palmar lynch like nobodies business at this point.
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Yeah, doin it.
##Vote: Palmar
Palmar hasn't been interested in finding scum this game, he's been interested in bucking any kind of plan town has tried to come up with and tunneling me. So why wasn't he trying to get me lynched first? Why when I was his preferred lynch yesterday wouldn't he come after me first?
Well, it probably has something to do with the fact that he's waiting on me to react to something that I've yet to react to. You see, I was actually hit last night, meaning one of only a few possible scenarios is going on:
Palmar lied and was not hit: this is my guess.
Palmar was hit by a vig and I was hit by scum: Not as likely, considering scum's gimped kp and no-flip mechanic.
Palmar was hit by scum and I was hit by vig: see above.
Now, we're at a crossroads. I've got a scum read on Palmar and a town read on LSB, and Palmar is pushing for an LSB lynch. This much doesn't surprise me. What surprises me is the wagon that's on LSB. Other than misunderstanding the rules early on, LSB has clearly been trying to figure out the best way for town to come out ahead with the vote-switches. I can't and won't support a lynch of LSB. But I feel like everyone should vote at once for Palmar because he's only interested in confusing town and keeping town in the dark.
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Just look at Palmar's posts - he has no reason to think I'm scum except for my claim just now - but he's been "sure" I'm scum since D1.
Do the right thing town. Don't lynch me. I'm off to work.
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EPT
