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On January 28 2012 04:24 Paperscraps wrote:If I am understanding correctly from the anti-circle circle trade people, messing up on N1 is acceptable. Town needs to take risks to get an advantage. We should give our votes to who we think is pro-town and then justify ourselves D2. I agree that people's justifications will be useful, but at what cost? By your guys logic, players such as Node, Jackal58 and jaybrundage shouldn't get any votes due to them being less active than others, which implies less town. Here is where I get caught up. Who has to the most to gain from being active and pro-town? Mafia does. I am not saying that the lurkers can't be mafia, but it is unlikely. Mafia want to get voting majority in whatever way possible they can right?Between the active players we are split on what to do N1, which is far worse than going with one plan or another. Solidarity goes a long way in mafia. Also what is the point of the free trade plan + justifications if we are just going to make people balance the votes back out the next night to those with 1 vote. The people with 1 vote should be weaker townies and mafia. What is the point of not trading to them N1 if we are just going to give them votes back N2.
Now onto the business. Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 22:57 Palmar wrote:
The difference between finding mafia to lynch and finding townie to pass your vote to is night and day. Remember, if you just randomize it, you still have 70% chance of hitting a townie. Add in even a tiny bit of thinking and that percentage goes up.
When you're trying to lynch scum it's the opposite, and you will be influenced by outside factors (it's harder to get wagons started on scum). However, this is your decision and your decision alone, so you have complete control over the outcome.
There is no such thing as safe play in mafia. It's not safe to do the circle of trust because we don't know what abilities the mafia has, and we cannot possibly gain an advantage through that method. With no advantage we don't know how the game is balanced. "I just chose at random" This justification completely negates what your plan is trying to do, which is to get scumtells from peoples justification on their trades. Another contradiction By your logic and probability, townies should trade their votes at random N1, ~70% chance to trade to another townie. So, which one is it Palmar? Free trade + justifications or randomized trading. Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 19:57 Palmar wrote:
whatever, I don't have the energy to argue with dumb.
I will not be following whatever plan you guys cook up. I will be following my own plan. This is so anti-town. Solidarity is crucial, not dissidence. You are forcing the town to do one of two things, follow you or lynch you. Seems like a scummy power play to me. ##Vote: Palmar
Scum can gain voting power by killing the people they trade votes with.
And don't vote for the cowboy. Palmar is town.
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On January 28 2012 05:13 layabout wrote:
does anybody know why prplhz has voted for wherebugsgo?
Nope, don't think it's a terrible vote though
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OMG we still have another day til lynch? /facepalm
Sorry guys - I was just looking at the votecount and realized I've been riding peoples ASS about time and I didn't even realize the deadline. My bad.
I feel like an asshole.
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Should we be lynching someone active that may be scummy or someone who is lurking hard like Node?
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NetStalker has been replaced by Chaoser
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Hi. Let me eat dinner/work out first and I will try to catch up.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
damn, I was hoping I could replace in... get me in on the next one RoL
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On January 28 2012 08:58 layabout wrote:
Should we be lynching someone active that may be scummy or someone who is lurking hard like Node?
You should be lynching someone you think is scum - if you think Node's relative inactivity is more scummy than any of the active players, then you should vote Node. If you think we've got a better shot at lynching scum in the more active players, read over the cases present or build a case on who you think it should be and vote them.
Node's inactivity is pretty standard if I recall correctly, but his vote on Palmar kinda worries me. I mean, even with his cavalier attitude, Palmar is definately not the scummiest person in the thread.
Who are you looking at inside the active players layabout?
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On January 28 2012 05:13 Jackal58 wrote:
Scum can gain voting power by killing the people they trade votes with.
And don't vote for the cowboy. Palmar is town.
Any reasons to why you think Palmar is town? The way the game is evolving right now, Palmar seems to be gaining a lot of town support, thus more likely to get votes on N1 if we do the free trade system. Am I the only one wary of this? There is no possible way to know whether or not he is town or mafia on D1. This is a game of wits and Palmar is a smart fellow, just saying.
On January 28 2012 05:05 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 04:24 Paperscraps wrote:On January 27 2012 22:57 Palmar wrote:
The difference between finding mafia to lynch and finding townie to pass your vote to is night and day. Remember, if you just randomize it, you still have 70% chance of hitting a townie. Add in even a tiny bit of thinking and that percentage goes up.
When you're trying to lynch scum it's the opposite, and you will be influenced by outside factors (it's harder to get wagons started on scum). However, this is your decision and your decision alone, so you have complete control over the outcome.
There is no such thing as safe play in mafia. It's not safe to do the circle of trust because we don't know what abilities the mafia has, and we cannot possibly gain an advantage through that method. With no advantage we don't know how the game is balanced. "I just chose at random" This justification completely negates what your plan is trying to do, which is to get scumtells from peoples justification on their trades. Another contradiction By your logic and probability, townies should trade their votes at random N1, ~70% chance to trade to another townie. So, which one is it Palmar? Free trade + justifications or randomized trading. On January 27 2012 19:57 Palmar wrote:
whatever, I don't have the energy to argue with dumb.
I will not be following whatever plan you guys cook up. I will be following my own plan. This is so anti-town. Solidarity is crucial, not dissidence. You are forcing the town to do one of two things, follow you or lynch you. Seems like a scummy power play to me. ##Vote: Palmar You're not helping anyone with that. You're just being dumb. Seeing as you're probably town you're working directly against your win condition. I didn't suggest anyone randomized, I was just pointing out what a great starting point we had even if we simply randomed. Don't try to see things that aren't there.
Palmar, why the lack of open-mindedness? The benefit of circle trading N1 is much safer than free trading to people based of some perception we got during D1.
I don't disagree with a free trade + justification plan after N1, but N1 circle trading seems the best options, until we get some solid reads during D2.
I'll leave my vote on you until you give some valid benefits to free trade over circle trading N1.
Does anyone think no lynching is an option D1? The mafia have a set KP, thus we only lose 1 townie and D2 we have a ton more information to work with. Odds are we will lynch a townie today.
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On January 28 2012 09:14 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 08:58 layabout wrote:
Should we be lynching someone active that may be scummy or someone who is lurking hard like Node? You should be lynching someone you think is scum - if you think Node's relative inactivity is more scummy than any of the active players, then you should vote Node. If you think we've got a better shot at lynching scum in the more active players, read over the cases present or build a case on who you think it should be and vote them. Node's inactivity is pretty standard if I recall correctly, but his vote on Palmar kinda worries me. I mean, even with his cavalier attitude, Palmar is definately not the scummiest person in the thread. Who are you looking at inside the active players layabout?
You and prplhz
But i don't have anything substantial enough to try to lynch you over.
I also felt that some of the things risk.nuke was saying were somewhat anti-town but he still doesn't look all that red,
Therefore i think that we should maybe vote for someone who isn't putting in effort as it will either prompt them to put in effort or rid us of someone useless.
The big problem is that this would very likely rid us of a townie.
I think that the talk of plans was useful for town and i feel that we have reached a good plan (but we need people to say whether or not they support it)
But at the same time i think that the plan discussion lasted longer than it should have and the thread has been near-dead for a few hours. This means that there has been very little posted with regards to the lynch. All of the votes made so far were made with minimal justification and there has been next to no effort to persuade other to get behind the lynch.
I feel that most of what was said about the plans was fairly safe and not indicative of alignments.
We have about 24 hours to decide who to lynch but we don't have much to go on for now, hopefully there will be more to look at when i wake up.
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+ Show Spoiler [Paperscraps last post] +On January 28 2012 09:24 Paperscraps wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 05:13 Jackal58 wrote:
Scum can gain voting power by killing the people they trade votes with.
And don't vote for the cowboy. Palmar is town.
Any reasons to why you think Palmar is town? The way the game is evolving right now, Palmar seems to be gaining a lot of town support, thus more likely to get votes on N1 if we do the free trade system. Am I the only one wary of this? There is no possible way to know whether or not he is town or mafia on D1. This is a game of wits and Palmar is a smart fellow, just saying. Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 05:05 Palmar wrote:On January 28 2012 04:24 Paperscraps wrote:On January 27 2012 22:57 Palmar wrote:
The difference between finding mafia to lynch and finding townie to pass your vote to is night and day. Remember, if you just randomize it, you still have 70% chance of hitting a townie. Add in even a tiny bit of thinking and that percentage goes up.
When you're trying to lynch scum it's the opposite, and you will be influenced by outside factors (it's harder to get wagons started on scum). However, this is your decision and your decision alone, so you have complete control over the outcome.
There is no such thing as safe play in mafia. It's not safe to do the circle of trust because we don't know what abilities the mafia has, and we cannot possibly gain an advantage through that method. With no advantage we don't know how the game is balanced. "I just chose at random" This justification completely negates what your plan is trying to do, which is to get scumtells from peoples justification on their trades. Another contradiction By your logic and probability, townies should trade their votes at random N1, ~70% chance to trade to another townie. So, which one is it Palmar? Free trade + justifications or randomized trading. On January 27 2012 19:57 Palmar wrote:
whatever, I don't have the energy to argue with dumb.
I will not be following whatever plan you guys cook up. I will be following my own plan. This is so anti-town. Solidarity is crucial, not dissidence. You are forcing the town to do one of two things, follow you or lynch you. Seems like a scummy power play to me. ##Vote: Palmar You're not helping anyone with that. You're just being dumb. Seeing as you're probably town you're working directly against your win condition. I didn't suggest anyone randomized, I was just pointing out what a great starting point we had even if we simply randomed. Don't try to see things that aren't there. Palmar, why the lack of open-mindedness? The benefit of circle trading N1 is much safer than free trading to people based of some perception we got during D1. I don't disagree with a free trade + justification plan after N1, but N1 circle trading seems the best options, until we get some solid reads during D2. I'll leave my vote on you until you give some valid benefits to free trade over circle trading N1.
Does anyone think no lynching is an option D1? The mafia have a set KP, thus we only lose 1 townie and D2 we have a ton more information to work with. Odds are we will lynch a townie today.
I am fine with lynching this guy.
What's this i am gonna leave my vote on you crap?
He is also hinting at a no-lynch on the basis that we will likely hit a townie, which is just plain bad
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People I'm fine with killing:
Sentinel guy
Prplhz
Don't kill paperscraps...yet.
##unvote risk.nuke
##vote [UoN]Sentinel
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Actually I take that back, I don't have a huge problem killing paperscraps. There was one thing he said that I liked but beyond that I'm not so sure.
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On January 28 2012 09:36 layabout wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Paperscraps last post] +On January 28 2012 09:24 Paperscraps wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 05:13 Jackal58 wrote:
Scum can gain voting power by killing the people they trade votes with.
And don't vote for the cowboy. Palmar is town.
Any reasons to why you think Palmar is town? The way the game is evolving right now, Palmar seems to be gaining a lot of town support, thus more likely to get votes on N1 if we do the free trade system. Am I the only one wary of this? There is no possible way to know whether or not he is town or mafia on D1. This is a game of wits and Palmar is a smart fellow, just saying. Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 05:05 Palmar wrote:On January 28 2012 04:24 Paperscraps wrote:On January 27 2012 22:57 Palmar wrote:
The difference between finding mafia to lynch and finding townie to pass your vote to is night and day. Remember, if you just randomize it, you still have 70% chance of hitting a townie. Add in even a tiny bit of thinking and that percentage goes up.
When you're trying to lynch scum it's the opposite, and you will be influenced by outside factors (it's harder to get wagons started on scum). However, this is your decision and your decision alone, so you have complete control over the outcome.
There is no such thing as safe play in mafia. It's not safe to do the circle of trust because we don't know what abilities the mafia has, and we cannot possibly gain an advantage through that method. With no advantage we don't know how the game is balanced. "I just chose at random" This justification completely negates what your plan is trying to do, which is to get scumtells from peoples justification on their trades. Another contradiction By your logic and probability, townies should trade their votes at random N1, ~70% chance to trade to another townie. So, which one is it Palmar? Free trade + justifications or randomized trading. On January 27 2012 19:57 Palmar wrote:
whatever, I don't have the energy to argue with dumb.
I will not be following whatever plan you guys cook up. I will be following my own plan. This is so anti-town. Solidarity is crucial, not dissidence. You are forcing the town to do one of two things, follow you or lynch you. Seems like a scummy power play to me. ##Vote: Palmar You're not helping anyone with that. You're just being dumb. Seeing as you're probably town you're working directly against your win condition. I didn't suggest anyone randomized, I was just pointing out what a great starting point we had even if we simply randomed. Don't try to see things that aren't there. Palmar, why the lack of open-mindedness? The benefit of circle trading N1 is much safer than free trading to people based of some perception we got during D1. I don't disagree with a free trade + justification plan after N1, but N1 circle trading seems the best options, until we get some solid reads during D2. I'll leave my vote on you until you give some valid benefits to free trade over circle trading N1.
Does anyone think no lynching is an option D1? The mafia have a set KP, thus we only lose 1 townie and D2 we have a ton more information to work with. Odds are we will lynch a townie today. I am fine with lynching this guy. What's this i am gonna leave my vote on you crap? He is also hinting at a no-lynch on the basis that we will likely hit a townie, which is just plain bad
If you think I am guilty, why not vote me up then?
I am leaving my vote on Palmar, because he is being unreasonable. Hopefully he will post something more constructive, instead of just calling people "dumb". I on the other hand am open to suggestions and willing to change if people post logical arguments.
4/15 chance to hit mafia, 11/15 chance to hit townie. You are willing to lynch me right now and that would be very bad for town.
Why the sudden change from purple and viscera to me? Why is a no-lynch so frowned upon? I understand that we can only kill mafia by lynching, but D1 odds are against us.
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On January 28 2012 10:05 Paperscraps wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 09:36 layabout wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Paperscraps last post] +On January 28 2012 09:24 Paperscraps wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 05:13 Jackal58 wrote:
Scum can gain voting power by killing the people they trade votes with.
And don't vote for the cowboy. Palmar is town.
Any reasons to why you think Palmar is town? The way the game is evolving right now, Palmar seems to be gaining a lot of town support, thus more likely to get votes on N1 if we do the free trade system. Am I the only one wary of this? There is no possible way to know whether or not he is town or mafia on D1. This is a game of wits and Palmar is a smart fellow, just saying. Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 05:05 Palmar wrote:On January 28 2012 04:24 Paperscraps wrote:On January 27 2012 22:57 Palmar wrote:
The difference between finding mafia to lynch and finding townie to pass your vote to is night and day. Remember, if you just randomize it, you still have 70% chance of hitting a townie. Add in even a tiny bit of thinking and that percentage goes up.
When you're trying to lynch scum it's the opposite, and you will be influenced by outside factors (it's harder to get wagons started on scum). However, this is your decision and your decision alone, so you have complete control over the outcome.
There is no such thing as safe play in mafia. It's not safe to do the circle of trust because we don't know what abilities the mafia has, and we cannot possibly gain an advantage through that method. With no advantage we don't know how the game is balanced. "I just chose at random" This justification completely negates what your plan is trying to do, which is to get scumtells from peoples justification on their trades. Another contradiction By your logic and probability, townies should trade their votes at random N1, ~70% chance to trade to another townie. So, which one is it Palmar? Free trade + justifications or randomized trading. On January 27 2012 19:57 Palmar wrote:
whatever, I don't have the energy to argue with dumb.
I will not be following whatever plan you guys cook up. I will be following my own plan. This is so anti-town. Solidarity is crucial, not dissidence. You are forcing the town to do one of two things, follow you or lynch you. Seems like a scummy power play to me. ##Vote: Palmar You're not helping anyone with that. You're just being dumb. Seeing as you're probably town you're working directly against your win condition. I didn't suggest anyone randomized, I was just pointing out what a great starting point we had even if we simply randomed. Don't try to see things that aren't there. Palmar, why the lack of open-mindedness? The benefit of circle trading N1 is much safer than free trading to people based of some perception we got during D1. I don't disagree with a free trade + justification plan after N1, but N1 circle trading seems the best options, until we get some solid reads during D2. I'll leave my vote on you until you give some valid benefits to free trade over circle trading N1.
Does anyone think no lynching is an option D1? The mafia have a set KP, thus we only lose 1 townie and D2 we have a ton more information to work with. Odds are we will lynch a townie today. I am fine with lynching this guy. What's this i am gonna leave my vote on you crap? He is also hinting at a no-lynch on the basis that we will likely hit a townie, which is just plain bad If you think I am guilty, why not vote me up then? I am leaving my vote on Palmar, because he is being unreasonable. Hopefully he will post something more constructive, instead of just calling people "dumb". I on the other hand am open to suggestions and willing to change if people post logical arguments. 4/15 chance to hit mafia, 11/15 chance to hit townie. You are willing to lynch me right now and that would be very bad for town. Why the sudden change from purple and viscera to me? Why is a no-lynch so frowned upon? I understand that we can only kill mafia by lynching, but D1 odds are against us.
Because the odds are against us all days, not just D1. Do you think scum are going to withhold their NK because they haven't figured out who's blue yet? More information would be nice, but a slightly lessened chance of killing scum (lynching D1) is better than zero chance of killing scum (NL D1). If you want to see the No-Lynch in action, go check out XLVIII.+ Show Spoiler +Scum Victory - not really because of the No-Lynches, but please note the chaos that surrounds EVERY lynch. NL is hardly ever the answer.
I'm going back to do a reread and a couple filters, so in the meantime...
##Unvote: Paperscraps
I don't think I'll be able to get the support I'd need, and I'm starting to doubt you're red myself. Not many scum would suggest no-lynch like that...especially since it's so frowned upon in most towns. I'll be back later tonight with my vote.
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On January 28 2012 10:05 Paperscraps wrote:
I'll leave my vote on you until you give some valid benefits to free trade over circle trading N1.
LSB gave a full plan, it convinced me/answered all my questions at any rate, and involves free trade N1 and stabilization N2. Easier to find and detect mafia than just circle trading and working from there.
Also, bugs why the vote?
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Understand that i am fully for lynching, i was just wondering what other peoples thoughts were on it. Now i feel as though i am being condemned for wanting to interact with town and strike up important and relevant discussions. Does being active and opposing palmar make me scum? Either you guys are using meta which i am unaware of or know something about palmar i dont. Right now though i am realizing that my talking so much about plans is upsetting people. Thing is, i dont care whether we do the free trade plan or circle trade plan, as long as the town is in unision. A point i made pretty early on in the thread. Keep in mind the people pushing for their respective plan can have hidden agendas. Even if we decided on a plan, we don't know if mafia or town was pushing for it on day one. Reminder: you cant trust anyone.
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On January 28 2012 10:24 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 10:05 Paperscraps wrote:
I'll leave my vote on you until you give some valid benefits to free trade over circle trading N1. LSB gave a full plan, it convinced me/answered all my questions at any rate, and involves free trade N1 and stabilization N2. Easier to find and detect mafia than just circle trading and working from there. Also, bugs why the vote?
First off I don't agree fully with LSB's plan.
On January 16 2012 07:16 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
2. If a player has more than 5 votes, then he must attempt to give away enough to put him at 5 or less votes.
^ This is the built-in stabilization mechanic ^
I just came to a realization.
LSB's stabilization works against the free trade plan. The whole idea of free trade is trading to whomever you want, to get meaningful justifications and scum-tells. If we force players with more than 5 votes to give votes to players with 1 vote, then it defeats the purpose of plan. N1 we get meaningful justifications and N2 players just claim that they traded to some player x because he had 1 vote and was told to do so. Do you see how this is counter-productive the overall goal of free trade?
There can't be any in between. All or nothing imo.
I am for a full fledged free trade plan, but still believe that circle-trading N1 has more merit.
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On January 28 2012 10:51 Paperscraps wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 10:24 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:On January 28 2012 10:05 Paperscraps wrote:
I'll leave my vote on you until you give some valid benefits to free trade over circle trading N1. LSB gave a full plan, it convinced me/answered all my questions at any rate, and involves free trade N1 and stabilization N2. Easier to find and detect mafia than just circle trading and working from there. Also, bugs why the vote? First off I don't agree fully with LSB's plan. Show nested quote +On January 16 2012 07:16 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
2. If a player has more than 5 votes, then he must attempt to give away enough to put him at 5 or less votes.
^ This is the built-in stabilization mechanic ^ I just came to a realization. LSB's stabilization works against the free trade plan. The whole idea of free trade is trading to whomever you want, to get meaningful justifications and scum-tells. If we force players with more than 5 votes to give votes to players with 1 vote, then it defeats the purpose of plan. N1 we get meaningful justifications and N2 players just claim that they traded to some player x because he had 1 vote and was told to do so. Do you see how this is counter-productive the overall goal of free trade? There can't be any in between. All or nothing imo. I am for a full fledged free trade plan, but still believe that circle-trading N1 has more merit.
But they can trade to any 1-vote player. Like right now I'm not trusted (question about this later), so if I don't get my vote back right away the intention is that people will be more hard-pressed to give me my VP back. It's not like we start with 3-3-3-3-3, D2 it's 5-1-1-5-3 for example, and then D3 back to the 3-3-3-3-3. More likely it'll be something like 5-1-3-3-3, where the guy with the 1 has the FoS on him. The circulation is just to reveal people's voting patterns and make people justify their votes.
TL;DR - It's free trade but it keeps votes away from mafia while still favoring people the town trusts.
Question about that by the way - I don't see the player votes coming up for me. Is there something wrong?
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EPT
