• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 08:41
CET 14:41
KST 22:41
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT13Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book16Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8
Community News
Weekly Cups (Feb 9-15): herO doubles up2ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/0224LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16)46Weekly Cups (Feb 2-8): Classic, Solar, MaxPax win2Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker15
StarCraft 2
General
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? Weekly Cups (Feb 9-15): herO doubles up SpeCial on The Tasteless Podcast Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16) Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) WardiTV Team League Season 10 $5,000 WardiTV Winter Championship 2026
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ? [A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 513 Attrition Warfare The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 512 Overclocked Mutation # 511 Temple of Rebirth
Brood War
General
TvZ is the most complete match up Gypsy to Korea Ladder maps - how we can make blizz update them? Brood War inspired Terran vs Zerg cinematic – feed Which units you wish saw more use in the game?
Tourneys
Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 1 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates Zealot bombing is no longer popular? Current Meta
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace Megathread Diablo 2 thread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Ask and answer stupid questions here! Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TL MMA Pick'em Pool 2013
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Search For Meaning in Vi…
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2730 users

Hammer Mini Mafia - Page 54

Forum Index > TL Mafia
Post a Reply
Prev 1 52 53 54
risk.nuke
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden2825 Posts
February 05 2012 01:13 GMT
#1061
I still think the best plan was along the lines of what I've said. Vote-circles would leave town in the dark. Despite alot of blues because of no-flip.

Free trading was a neccersary informationsource in the start, aswell as beeing a huge pain in the arse for scum to deal with.

Later on town needed to transfer into some sort of safer play where you try to keep the vp balanced out amongst the remaining players to cancel out the power of vp. I originally wanted to nullify vp importance because of the of chance scum through luck, manipulation or playing awesome managed to achive alot of vp. I had no idea of the scum abillitys and I never would had thought they had this many and this powerfull roles as they did, I was shocked. Granted there were alot of blues aswell but the scum abillitys for this game was fucking scary. Both vote steal and vote siphon (bus driver) is just op.
Town might have had alot of townies remaining but as you could see it doesn't stop scum from wrapping the game up.


We won because scum played pretty bad.

LSB spent most of his time making scum-favored vote-circle plans putting him in the spotlight.
Viceraeyes played incredibly suspiciously and then outed both himself and LSB in a panic attack.
Chaoser: A player as good as chaoser not doing anything for several days made him very suspicious.
Jackal made a pretty decent job at blending in but then he claimed medic.
and town had a fair bit of luck.

If scum had tried more to just blend in and look townish for the first days this would probably had been a walkover due to scum power-roles.
Neo.G Soulkey, Best, firebathero. // http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
February 05 2012 01:22 GMT
#1062
I was very stupid. I should have claimed VT and watched you guys lynch Meatless Taco. If I had done that we would have won. It's nobodies fault but mine. Chaoser and LSB played good games. Visc panicked a bit and tried to save LSB and that was a bad move on his part but the loss is on me. One more lynch and I would have had total control of the votes.
Life can only kill you once.
RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
February 05 2012 01:29 GMT
#1063
On February 05 2012 10:22 Jackal58 wrote:
I was very stupid. I should have claimed VT and watched you guys lynch Meatless Taco. If I had done that we would have won. It's nobodies fault but mine. Chaoser and LSB played good games. Visc panicked a bit and tried to save LSB and that was a bad move on his part but the loss is on me. One more lynch and I would have had total control of the votes.

How do you figure? You would need to get them to send you the majority and you wouldn't be able to hold them for more than one lynch.
Be a man, Become a Legend. TL Mafia Forum Ask for access!!
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
February 05 2012 01:35 GMT
#1064
On February 05 2012 10:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2012 10:22 Jackal58 wrote:
I was very stupid. I should have claimed VT and watched you guys lynch Meatless Taco. If I had done that we would have won. It's nobodies fault but mine. Chaoser and LSB played good games. Visc panicked a bit and tried to save LSB and that was a bad move on his part but the loss is on me. One more lynch and I would have had total control of the votes.

How do you figure? You would need to get them to send you the majority and you wouldn't be able to hold them for more than one lynch.

Meatless -1 vote
Node -6 votes
Steal from the highest vote total holder the next day and lynch him.
Kill the next highest vote holder the next night
Rinse, Repeat.
I had 3 free kills in a row.
Life can only kill you once.
wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
February 05 2012 01:53 GMT
#1065
On February 05 2012 09:40 LSB wrote:
Yep, vote circle would have been the best town plan, because of the fact that there were many vote manipulation elements. Of course you guys didn't know it. :D

Nice hits vigs!


-_-

people called me dumb for supporting the fucking vote circle.

While my keyboard died. So I couldn't defend myself when I was getting lynched.

Also holy crap the setup was mafia-favored, but town was lucky that scum messed up a lot and key town players caught onto it. Mafia played in such a way that I had 3 of them caught day 1 (check GM's obs qt lol)

and I'm not that great of a scumhunter

people should have been able tosee that lsb was scum based on the way he flopped about the plan, and the fact that he supported something so mafia favored to begin with.
MeatlessTaco
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States302 Posts
February 05 2012 02:23 GMT
#1066
On February 05 2012 10:53 wherebugsgo wrote:
people called me dumb for supporting the fucking vote circle.


Everyone was on board ( including scum ) until this
On January 26 2012 17:42 Palmar wrote:
I think everyone should give all their votes to me. Additionally, I think we should hang everyone who opposed having PMs in the game because that's why I originally wanted to play it.



this

On January 26 2012 18:28 prplhz wrote:
Everybody should give away as many votes as they can every day. This is a good idea because it will prevent scum from eliminating voting power through night kills, and voting power will only get eliminated through the lynch which is more likely to hit scum than night kills.


and this

On January 27 2012 01:06 Palmar wrote:
I have no issues with a planned vote-trading system, I'm just not going to follow it.


There was no way it could work after that.
jaybrundage
Profile Joined December 2009
United States3921 Posts
February 05 2012 02:36 GMT
#1067
Lol that policy WBG lynch works everytime
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle.
prplhz
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Denmark8045 Posts
February 05 2012 02:42 GMT
#1068
He said "knowing what roles scum has, the plan was good", you didn't know what roles scum had

Like Jackal58 said, vote-stealer is imbalanced in late game. Was it 1 scum v 8 townies, and then it's LYLO? That's pretty crazy. Town had no idea that they needed to keep the VP spread out to avoid that scenario.
http://i.imgur.com/M7t7egx.png
chaoser
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States5541 Posts
February 05 2012 02:49 GMT
#1069
On February 05 2012 10:22 Jackal58 wrote:
I was very stupid. I should have claimed VT and watched you guys lynch Meatless Taco. If I had done that we would have won. It's nobodies fault but mine. Chaoser and LSB played good games. Visc panicked a bit and tried to save LSB and that was a bad move on his part but the loss is on me. One more lynch and I would have had total control of the votes.


Nah yo, we all played badly. VE's weird votes/unvotes day one were REALLY suspicious. I didn't even know who was on the mafia during my replacement read-through and I caught him on it. Also LSB switching on his plan was really bad. Foolishness/Ver would have easily caught that and owned us in the face with it.

And I should have bussed both of them at the end of day 3 instead of trying to save LSB. I feel like that plus the town thinking layabout was mafia + him giving me four fucking votes pushed me over the edge and made town think I was mafia -_-. I really didn't expect there to be a second vigi either and had there not been, mafia would have won the moment layabout with his 10 votes got voted off. My plan was to destroy as many votes as possible and then using bussing/Jackal's vote buying powers to win the game with control over majority votes. Ah well.

I don't think my none-presence in the game should have been read as "Scummy" though. In responsibility Mafia I barely posted, electing to make big posts at the end of the day and everyone thought I was townie.
Haven't you heard? I'm not an ex-progamer. I'm not a poker player. I'm not an admin of the site. I'm mother fucking Rekrul.
wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-05 03:05:02
February 05 2012 03:03 GMT
#1070
On February 05 2012 11:42 prplhz wrote:
He said "knowing what roles scum has, the plan was good", you didn't know what roles scum had

Like Jackal58 said, vote-stealer is imbalanced in late game. Was it 1 scum v 8 townies, and then it's LYLO? That's pretty crazy. Town had no idea that they needed to keep the VP spread out to avoid that scenario.


it didn't matter what roles the scum had.

In fact,not knowing them meant you should always go with the more conservative plan, not the one that stacks votes on single people.

I would have guessed there was a votestealing mechanic for scum, or at least something setup related.

EDIT: Also, even knowing that, if scum actually played half decent (no offense guys, you really dropped the ball on this one lol) I can guarantee you that scum would end upwith more votes proportionally than town by day 2.

If I was scum, as I said repeatedly on day 1, I would have played in such a way that I would be guaranteed to receive votes from multiple people the next day. I might even have just mimicked a townie if I thought that would help (and I think it would have)
HarbingerOfDoom
Profile Joined December 2010
United States508 Posts
February 05 2012 03:17 GMT
#1071
On February 05 2012 10:35 Jackal58 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2012 10:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
On February 05 2012 10:22 Jackal58 wrote:
I was very stupid. I should have claimed VT and watched you guys lynch Meatless Taco. If I had done that we would have won. It's nobodies fault but mine. Chaoser and LSB played good games. Visc panicked a bit and tried to save LSB and that was a bad move on his part but the loss is on me. One more lynch and I would have had total control of the votes.

How do you figure? You would need to get them to send you the majority and you wouldn't be able to hold them for more than one lynch.

Meatless -1 vote
Node -6 votes
Steal from the highest vote total holder the next day and lynch him.
Kill the next highest vote holder the next night
Rinse, Repeat.
I had 3 free kills in a row.

Ability: Once per game during the day, you may buy the vote of another player. You decide who they vote for that day, by PMing your intent to the Hosts. The votecounter will immediately show the change, and that the vote was manipulated. You may not change the bought vote afterwards, and this ability can not change a lynch that has been decided allready.

How could you do it repeatedly? Your ability was one-shot, or so you said in the quicktopic.
Jackal58
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4264 Posts
February 05 2012 03:25 GMT
#1072
On February 05 2012 12:17 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2012 10:35 Jackal58 wrote:
On February 05 2012 10:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
On February 05 2012 10:22 Jackal58 wrote:
I was very stupid. I should have claimed VT and watched you guys lynch Meatless Taco. If I had done that we would have won. It's nobodies fault but mine. Chaoser and LSB played good games. Visc panicked a bit and tried to save LSB and that was a bad move on his part but the loss is on me. One more lynch and I would have had total control of the votes.

How do you figure? You would need to get them to send you the majority and you wouldn't be able to hold them for more than one lynch.

Meatless -1 vote
Node -6 votes
Steal from the highest vote total holder the next day and lynch him.
Kill the next highest vote holder the next night
Rinse, Repeat.
I had 3 free kills in a row.

Show nested quote +
Ability: Once per game during the day, you may buy the vote of another player. You decide who they vote for that day, by PMing your intent to the Hosts. The votecounter will immediately show the change, and that the vote was manipulated. You may not change the bought vote afterwards, and this ability can not change a lynch that has been decided allready.

How could you do it repeatedly? Your ability was one-shot, or so you said in the quicktopic.

I could only steal votes once. If I had killed Node and gave him a vote I would have retained 4. Maybe even collected one more. While eliminating 6 votes. Next day use my votes and steal the highest vote holder and lynch him with his own votes. Eliminates another 3 or 4 votes. Kill the next highest vote holder that night removing another 2 or 3. Vote elimination was about to snowball.
Life can only kill you once.
LSB
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5171 Posts
February 05 2012 05:45 GMT
#1073
And that continues my streak of never winning as mafia!

On February 05 2012 12:03 wherebugsgo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2012 11:42 prplhz wrote:
He said "knowing what roles scum has, the plan was good", you didn't know what roles scum had

Like Jackal58 said, vote-stealer is imbalanced in late game. Was it 1 scum v 8 townies, and then it's LYLO? That's pretty crazy. Town had no idea that they needed to keep the VP spread out to avoid that scenario.


it didn't matter what roles the scum had.

In fact,not knowing them meant you should always go with the more conservative plan, not the one that stacks votes on single people.

I would have guessed there was a votestealing mechanic for scum, or at least something setup related.

Thats the point, no one did, which is why I was able to make my case. Of course if Hammer is hosted again, votecircles would be defaulted to. But since it was Hammer's first game, I took the initiative.

Of course, then we departed from the counterplan, people giving me votes and stuff... if the mafia team was more coordinated I'm sure that we could have a much better night 2.
Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is an enemy action. Bus Driver can never target themselves I'm sorry
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-05 08:29:37
February 05 2012 08:22 GMT
#1074
On February 05 2012 10:35 Jackal58 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2012 10:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
On February 05 2012 10:22 Jackal58 wrote:
I was very stupid. I should have claimed VT and watched you guys lynch Meatless Taco. If I had done that we would have won. It's nobodies fault but mine. Chaoser and LSB played good games. Visc panicked a bit and tried to save LSB and that was a bad move on his part but the loss is on me. One more lynch and I would have had total control of the votes.

How do you figure? You would need to get them to send you the majority and you wouldn't be able to hold them for more than one lynch.

Meatless -1 vote
Node -6 votes
Steal from the highest vote total holder the next day and lynch him.
Kill the next highest vote holder the next night
Rinse, Repeat.
I had 3 free kills in a row.

Node would have traded votes away, you aren't guaranteed to be able to eliminate that many votes every night. Also, there was a medic still alive.

I don't think the vote circle is the best plan even knowing what roles are present in the game. Town has two vigs, so scum won't be able to control votes early and if town keeps trading all their votes every night, scum can only eliminate 1 vote every night.

WBG's "lol just play like a townie" to get votes is amazing advice.
RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
February 05 2012 14:02 GMT
#1075
On February 05 2012 10:35 Jackal58 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2012 10:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
On February 05 2012 10:22 Jackal58 wrote:
I was very stupid. I should have claimed VT and watched you guys lynch Meatless Taco. If I had done that we would have won. It's nobodies fault but mine. Chaoser and LSB played good games. Visc panicked a bit and tried to save LSB and that was a bad move on his part but the loss is on me. One more lynch and I would have had total control of the votes.

How do you figure? You would need to get them to send you the majority and you wouldn't be able to hold them for more than one lynch.

Meatless -1 vote
Node -6 votes
Steal from the highest vote total holder the next day and lynch him.
Kill the next highest vote holder the next night
Rinse, Repeat.
I had 3 free kills in a row.

I assume you are referring to Node being killed and that is why he is -6. But look at the game set up. The actions go give votes --> hits --- > receive votes. You can't kill away votes like that. You would have to kill both the sender and the receiver for votes to disappear during the night. Or at least whatever votes node didn't send.
Be a man, Become a Legend. TL Mafia Forum Ask for access!!
RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
February 05 2012 14:08 GMT
#1076
On February 05 2012 12:03 wherebugsgo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 05 2012 11:42 prplhz wrote:
He said "knowing what roles scum has, the plan was good", you didn't know what roles scum had

Like Jackal58 said, vote-stealer is imbalanced in late game. Was it 1 scum v 8 townies, and then it's LYLO? That's pretty crazy. Town had no idea that they needed to keep the VP spread out to avoid that scenario.


it didn't matter what roles the scum had.

In fact,not knowing them meant you should always go with the more conservative plan, not the one that stacks votes on single people.

I would have guessed there was a votestealing mechanic for scum, or at least something setup related.

EDIT: Also, even knowing that, if scum actually played half decent (no offense guys, you really dropped the ball on this one lol) I can guarantee you that scum would end upwith more votes proportionally than town by day 2.

If I was scum, as I said repeatedly on day 1, I would have played in such a way that I would be guaranteed to receive votes from multiple people the next day. I might even have just mimicked a townie if I thought that would help (and I think it would have)

I would say that any player who is accumulating votes but isn't overtly town is worth killing. In this sense I think the mafia had to be very active and look town to justify having high votes and not being killed. You guys instead chose to just not go for votes early on because none of you had the town cred to get away with the above move, which is better than giving each other votes when you are under suspicion, but it is definitely not gaming the system to your teams advantage.

For example, at the start of day 2 I think the mafia controlled 10 total votes, meaning you collectively lost two votes.
Be a man, Become a Legend. TL Mafia Forum Ask for access!!
Prev 1 52 53 54
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Winter Champion…
12:00
Group A
WardiTV1017
IndyStarCraft 205
3DClanTV 28
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 205
Hui .186
ProTech125
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 16731
GuemChi 2836
Bisu 1844
Horang2 1645
Larva 853
BeSt 622
firebathero 432
Stork 415
EffOrt 400
Mini 381
[ Show more ]
Soma 334
Light 255
ggaemo 255
Snow 218
Last 212
Shuttle 195
hero 153
Rush 153
Mong 121
Zeus 99
JulyZerg 68
Backho 66
Barracks 63
Sea.KH 60
JYJ 48
sorry 46
Aegong 43
ZergMaN 37
ajuk12(nOOB) 34
Free 32
910 27
Sacsri 24
Movie 21
HiyA 20
IntoTheRainbow 20
Purpose 19
Terrorterran 17
GoRush 17
zelot 15
Shinee 13
SilentControl 13
Noble 9
Icarus 6
Dota 2
Gorgc4875
Dendi694
XcaliburYe94
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2321
zeus2317
byalli717
edward63
Other Games
singsing2276
B2W.Neo376
Lowko316
crisheroes274
hiko241
Sick146
RotterdaM119
QueenE29
Trikslyr29
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL28627
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• iHatsuTV 34
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis3063
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
10h 20m
PiG Sty Festival
19h 20m
Maru vs Bunny
Classic vs SHIN
The PondCast
20h 20m
KCM Race Survival
20h 20m
WardiTV Winter Champion…
22h 20m
OSC
22h 20m
Replay Cast
1d 10h
PiG Sty Festival
1d 19h
Clem vs Percival
Zoun vs Solar
Epic.LAN
1d 22h
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
PiG Sty Festival
2 days
herO vs NightMare
Reynor vs Cure
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
Epic.LAN
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
PiG Sty Festival
3 days
Serral vs YoungYakov
ByuN vs ShoWTimE
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
5 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

C-League Week 31
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
WardiTV Winter 2026
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: King of Kings
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 1st Round
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 1st Round Qualifier
Jeongseon Sooper Cup
Spring Cup 2026: China & Korea Invitational
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 2nd Round
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 2nd Round Qualifier
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
PiG Sty Festival 7.0
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
FISSURE Playground #3
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.