EPTHammer Mini Mafia - Page 14
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
but can we really? With a KP and the ability to give votes in secret and announce giving votes in public, surely mafia can get around giving away their votes to town if they want to? | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
On January 27 2012 06:49 risk.nuke wrote: Maybe you only thought about it for ten seconds or I wasn't clear enough. I will not tolerate vote-circles. Votes are a pressure-mechanic. Everyone gives votes to who we think are town. Mafia can't lurk which is reason enough not to have any dumb vote circles. But also we get more information on eachother. We can see who gives votes to who, track it and look for suspicious patterns. This will force the mafia to act like they play pro-town or suffer loss of votepower since it would be pretty damn obvious if 4 players are trading are always giving votes to eachother they will be forced to give their votes to townies and try and aqquire votes from townies. The very good thing about having a system where everyone can send votes to whoever they want is we can judge people by who they give their vote to. Maybe you didn't think about it, or maybe I wasn't clear enough, but you never answered my question risk. If I think that Palmar is scum, perhaps you can enlighten me on why putting my vote on him is scummy? Your random FoS on me is meaningless without the answer to this question, so I'd appreciate an answer. | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
lol i wrote the post again and then my computer crashed and i was like *RAAAAAAGE* but then my browser had actually saved the post! We have at least 3 mislynches until LYLO, with the low KP of mafia this will likely be a long game, which ultimately favors town. I think the game would be somewhat balanced with all vanilla, but that would be boring so there are likely roles out there. Medics and veterans seem a lot stronger in a game where scum only has 1 KP, they can render an entire night useless for scum. Vigilantes on the other hand seem less powerful since there are no flips. Investigation roles are going to be a lot more powerful, but also harder to breadcrumb the results of since you cannot rely on your flip as a trigger for people to go back and find them, and you cannot rely on town to pick them up while hiding them for scum. Themed roles are a distinct possibility, yes they are. Ultimately, the only thing we can rely on is analysis, so provide content and provide analysis, duh. If some dude died who is scum, but everybody thinks he's town this will be a lot better for scum, so lynching people off hunches is not going to work. No-lynching might also be an option at some point. Any plan that rests on a premise other than "You are town" can hardly ever be reliably implemented. Plans are often only good for examining the setup and for starting the game up. The only plan I can see right now which rests only on that single premise is "Give a single vote to the person you think is most likely to be town. If you have a reason to think you're going to die, consider giving all of your votes to that person." We should not tell people who we're going to give our votes to during the night but instead during the following day. | ||
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
On January 27 2012 06:57 VisceraEyes wrote: Maybe you didn't think about it, or maybe I wasn't clear enough, but you never answered my question risk. If I think that Palmar is scum, perhaps you can enlighten me on why putting my vote on him is scummy? Your random FoS on me is meaningless without the answer to this question, so I'd appreciate an answer. I think it's proposterous that you would legitimatly think palmar is scum based on that. Then I thought it's very suspicious that a townie would try to get the best scumhunter in the game lynched asap. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
On January 27 2012 07:07 risk.nuke wrote: I think it's proposterous that you would legitimatly think palmar is scum based on that. Then I thought it's very suspicious that a townie would try to get the best scumhunter in the game lynched asap. So you're under the assumption that Palmar auto-rolls town every game because he's a good scumhunter - is that what you're suggesting? Because nothing you've just said makes any sense unless you're assuming that Palmar just can't be scum this game. Anyways, this argument can wait because obviously I'm not voting for Palmar anymore and you're not voting for me. Can I assume that given the opportunity and means, you'd lynch me today? | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
We need moar activity. If we want to turn this game into resurrection v 2.0 then the people who haven't posted yet must come forth and make themselves worth something. Right now I feel like not doing anything because some of the most experienced players in the game have still done jack all. | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
what do you think the best approach to trading votes is? | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
I.e. Anyone who doesn't follow it gets lynched. Why? Well, as a townie you have very little information, if any, about where your vote is going. Mafia knows all the alignments, so they know everything already. Thus, the vote trading mechanic is clearly scum favored, because they know who are getting their votes and why. They can split up the votes, they can pile them up, they can put them on scum, they can put them on town. The no-flip mechanic means we'll never find out the alignment of the players involved. This can spell some problems for us. Ofc, every night we can expect 1 KP that will most likely hit town. So if you think about it, as townies we're essentially gambling by giving out our votes to our "best town reads". I can guarantee you that as scum I'd jump on this faster than you could say WIFOM. Why? Well, it's simple. This game is no flip, so the possibilities are almost limitless for scum manipulation with respect to a mechanic that relies on relatively unreliable player reads. Look at day 1 of L; like 15 townies (some of the best in this forum) thought BM was town, and almost fucked us over. Reads, particularly early game reads, are often too unreliable for this kind of mechanic. For that reason, I think we should play normally, and send the votes in an orderly fashion so that we know where they are at all times. When votes appear where they shouldn't be, we take a look at why that happened, and we can lynch the people responsible (since the receiver will correspond to another player) In other words, if the vote circle is messed up, the solution is to kill the sender. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
We send votes in a line down the list. Tomorrow, everyone should end up with 3. If anyone has 2, we kill the person who was supposed to give them the vote. | ||
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
Wbg are you telling me you approve of vote circles? | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 27 2012 08:09 risk.nuke wrote: Yes, wbg. that everyone understood. Assuming nobody here is full on retard they can figure that out. Wbg are you telling me you approve of vote circles? Yeah, I fully approve of them. I'm going to give Palmar some time to shape up, but if he doesn't agree with this (if he's town he should, it's completely logical) then he should probably die. Anyone who opposes the vote circle plan: please provide reasoning as to why it's bad. | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
On January 27 2012 08:09 risk.nuke wrote: Yes, wbg. that everyone understood. Assuming nobody here is full on retard they can figure that out. Wbg are you telling me you approve of vote circles? I think he is and it would be a vote circle, with everyone in it. | ||
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
On January 27 2012 08:11 wherebugsgo wrote: Yeah, I fully approve of them. I'm going to give Palmar some time to shape up, but if he doesn't agree with this (if he's town he should, it's completely logical) then he should probably die. Anyone who opposes the vote circle plan: please provide reasoning as to why it's bad. I've said several things to why it's bad. Reread what I said. And if you don't understand. Feel free to ask me questions. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On January 27 2012 08:13 risk.nuke wrote: I've said several things to why it's bad. Reread what I said. And if you don't understand. Feel free to ask me questions. Your reasoning is fucking terrible because, as I said just a moment ago, if votes were given out to the towniest townies then the scum would ensure they look the most town. This is a NO FLIP game, any scum with half a brain can look town, all that'll happen is the lurky townies will get no votes and the vote power will shift toward the scum because proportionally at least one will end up looking like town. Guaranteed there's at least one vet on the scumteam, and if we were to follow your idea that person would end up with like a third of the votes. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
On January 27 2012 08:11 wherebugsgo wrote: Yeah, I fully approve of them. I'm going to give Palmar some time to shape up, but if he doesn't agree with this (if he's town he should, it's completely logical) then he should probably die. Anyone who opposes the vote circle plan: please provide reasoning as to why it's bad. WBG, I'm iffy on the vote-circle, and here's why: we can't know who the extra votes are going to. Scum are going to kill someone, and whoever tried to give that person a vote is going to have an extra vote. Will scum design the kill to give themselves extra VP? We can't know the answer, and we won't know even if we lynch the receiver. That's the fundamental flaw in the plan: it provides the most opportunity for everyone to have the same number of votes, but it ensures that someone is going to have more than everyone else and we have no idea if we can trust that person or not. At least by giving a vote to someone who appears pro-town in-thread, we can keep who gets the extra votes within our power. RE: Palmar - Palmar's agenda right now is accruing votes from sheep - he's not going to approve of this plan regardless of his alignment unless he's trolling us. The question becomes: would scumPalmar put stick his neck out like this, bucking the only semblance of a nearly universally accepted plan just to try and gain some VP for the next cycle? I think he would, because he's likely to succeed regardless of his alignment. But town may disagree. I'm willing to kill Palmar today if he doesn't shape up, but I'm also willing to give him until tomorrow. Right now he's one of only two scum reads I have. I'll echo you and say that we need more activity. | ||
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