EPTIf so then /in
Mini Mafia X
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On November 15 2011 08:02 jaybrundage wrote: Because we need to get lynch off and someone else voted for him Since this is only your second game and your first game wasn't exactly spectacular, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you the following: Are you fucking kidding me? | ||
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On November 15 2011 09:41 Palmar wrote: I'm dead serious. WBG is a good lynch. He's probably top 2-3 scum players in this game, but his town play is more middle of the road. He's hard to read because he's loud and arrogant without being right often enough to call him out on it when he's wrong. Top town players like Sandroba or myself can be figured out just based on if we're actually making the right calls or not. That's stupid. | ||
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On November 15 2011 17:11 hiro protagonist wrote: I know you where trolling Im with you Erandorr, I would like to start this game off on the right foot. So lets lay down some frame work: Towns goal for day 1 should be to create a good town atmosphere. What is good town atmosphere you ask? Well there is the obvious stuff like dont lurk, post with content etc. But there is less obvious stuff like pointless arguing, spam, and aggressive tunneling that Have haunted TL towns in the past. Those things only further scum objectives. I will be taking a hard stance on anyone that derails positive discussion this game. Lets start off on the right foot! Then tell me why you think Palmar's plan to lynch wherebugsgo on day1 is good. I am really interested in that. | ||
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1 cycle of discussion 1 townie from NK ... in exchange for the following: 22% chance to hit a scum, a whopping 78% chance to hit a townie. Tell me why you think this is a good deal? I am quite aware that Palmar is just trying to make discussion, so am I, now lets discuss. | ||
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You guys all suck. jaybrundage has a valid excuse but people like Mr. Wiggles and Palmar don't. Stop being derps. | ||
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##Vote hiro protagonist | ||
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On November 16 2011 07:56 hiro protagonist wrote: being loud does not mean your right Meapak. I stand behind everything I said. Just because you say its worthless does not make it so. How am I to start the game then. Troll like everyone else? Im being active and contributing while some players have said next to nothing. "OMG! someone is acting pro town! he must be scum trying to fit in!" This is your logic for lynching me. I thought you were gone for 24 hours? It's cool that you supposedly want to contribute to a town friendly environment by repeating weak mantras that everybody can agree on, but can you actually use this for anything? Why didn't you vote for wherebugsgo when you said that threatening him with a lynch would be a good incentive for him to change what you think is poor town play? Who do you want to lynch if not wherebugsgo? | ||
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On November 16 2011 08:30 hiro protagonist wrote: Well, If everything I say is obvious, and does not need stating, perhaps I should just stop posting... I dont know, perhaps its because the activity level right now is bad? What else is there to say other than the obvious? How can we analysis if know one is saying anything. Im the current lynch target which is fine, but at least Im talking. So perhaps everyone else could come in and give us some insight please ^_^ Here is some more obvious stuff that does not need to be said: one mafia is almost surly lurking due to the activity in the thread so far. I think its very likely that one of Palmar, Meapak, Wiggles, or Sandroba is scum. Right now Im leaning towards Meapak. Nobody ever told you to stop talking, people just told you to stop stating obvious stuff. It is bad when a person did not vote at all. Why is it fine that you are the lynch right now? Why did you put Meapak_Ziphh on your lurker list when he's actually posted quite a bit more than most other people? Why are you leaning scum on him? You don't have to lean scum on him you know. | ||
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On November 16 2011 11:07 hiro protagonist wrote: does everyone think I suck at this game? T_T In what way does that question help town? You're appealing to emotions, why are you doing that? | ||
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On November 16 2011 11:17 hiro protagonist wrote: Prpr, could you not ask 3 questions of me every time I post once. The statement is self evident... If it is self evident, then why am I asking? If you are town then you are in a very unique and potent position, because you know your alignment. Read the cases against you, point out flaws, explain your behavior, your point of view is the most important right now. Right now, you're not giving anybody anything, which is scum behavior. Scum can appeal to emotions just as well as town, it's a null tell so why do you even bother unless you're a scum and this is a hail mary of sort? Answer questions. Read the thread. Post your reads and reasonable. "I am a bad townie" is something no one should ever say. Just start playing the game. | ||
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Can you point out something about wherebugsgo's play style that has bothered you in this specific game? You have complained about him being spammy and over aggressive but he hasn't really been that this game has he? | ||
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What happened in between this post and this post that made you think that hiro protagonist was any more mafia, so much more that he suddenly deserved your vote? Why didn't you vote him in the first of those posts? @Mr. Wiggles On November 16 2011 10:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote: [...] So, my post got me some information that I consider valuable and more information on certain players than the rest of the thread did before that (besides maybe Hiro). Too bad no one was really dumb and actually responded to my question though, because most townies here are smart enough to know not to and it would have been an easy scum-tell. This really rubs me the wrong way. "Too bad no one was really dumb", are you trying to catch dumb people? "Most townies here are smart enough to know not to [answer your question]" why are you trying to catch dumb townies with your question and not scum? I don't understand this at all, please explain. Why are you trying to pose as "catching" scum with gimmicky shit like this, when you acknowledge yourself that it will most likely just "catch" dumb townies? @sandroba, Palmar lol™ | ||
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Do you really really think that hiro protagonist is scum? | ||
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Would you rather lynch wherebugsgo that no-lynch? | ||
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1. Palmar seems town to me so far but then why the hell does he do stuff like this: On November 16 2011 19:10 Palmar wrote: I'll give my thoughts on day 1 soon-ish. I'm still up for completely random lynching btw. At the moment I'm not quite sure I want to lynch WBG, he seems reasonable. I also don't agree with the lynch on Hiro, but that's pending me actually reading everything in the thread. I'd rather no-lynch than lynch a townie, and I will press the issue. I made that promise to myself sometime during XLIV and I have followed through ever since, I will NOT vote on people I think are town, no matter the circumstances. So yeah, don't worry about it I will give you what you need before the day is over. Bolded for your convenience. On November 16 2011 19:13 Palmar wrote: Irrelevant to the game: + Show Spoiler + @WBG: I never said your town play was terrible, I said it was middle of the road. You haven't caught up with the pro town players, but you're still decent. I just used it to contrast it with the fact that you have very strong scum play. How exactly is this irrelevant to the game!? 2. Erandorr's huge big post that I'd quote but I'm afraid reposting would break the internet. This post is actually not saying anything at all. sandroba said that Erandorr was defending hiro protagonist, but he isn't. He is actually agreeing with a lot of the stuff that wherebugsgo points out. What Erandorr is most pissed at is the way that wherebugsgo plays. This is a big opinion post about how someone else plays the game without actually concluding anything about the game, he doesn't end up saying that hiro protagonist is scum, nor does he say that hiro protagonist is scum. I mean I have no idea what this post was about and neither does Erandorr, so why make it? He then promises that he'll post some actual analysis but he never does this. It is cool that you're trying to be active and all but you're not helping and that's weird. 3. I think sandroba's read on Erandorr is wrong. Erandorr is putting effort into this game alright but that doesn't make him town, and he never argued against the hiro protagonist lynch. I think it's weird that sandroba would think that Erandorr is town because of something Erandorr readily admits that he never did. | ||
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I think Mr. Wiggles is the best lynch right now. He's actively been a lot more derpy than what should be expected from him. I'd like him to show up right now and start talking. | ||
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How did you think you would prevent a bandwagon by going through wherebugsgo's analysis and then agreeing with half of it and sporadically interjecting "shut up"? If you don't think that hiro protagonist is in the green at all, then why don't you want people to bandwagon on him? Mr. Wiggles is the best lynch because he should definitely know better. He's a veteran and then he comes up with an overly simplistic plan to catch dumb people? What the hell? And then he follows up by saying "Lol, I didn't catch any dumb people, afk" and disappears. This isn't good enough. @hiro protagonist If you could lynch one guy right now who would it be and why? Can you keep arguments inside this game please, no lynching wherebugsgo because he called somebody a retard in PYPI or something like that. | ||
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So you were not trying to defend hiro protagonist, you were just trying to prevent people from voting for him, even though you thought he was scummy. You did this by saying that you thought that he was pretty bad looking and by agreeing with half of a huge analysis on him. A big part of the rest of the analysis you tried to refute by saying "shut up". Can you see why this makes little sense to me? I can understand being against stupid bandwagons that forms 10 minutes before deadline, but this was 25 hours before deadline and the guy had 2 votes on him. Why wasn't the long post on wherebugsgo very smart by you? I agree with this but I'd like to hear your opinion on it too. Also ##Unvote ##Vote Mr. Wiggles | ||
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Do you see what I am getting at? | ||
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Which of Mr. Wiggles points give you so much pause that you will not vote him over hiro protagonist even though most other people agree that hiro protagonist probably isn't scum? You said in a post that you were ready to switch to Mr. Wiggles over hiro protagonist unless Mr. Wiggles posted something of value, but you never said what exactly you thought Mr. Wiggles posted that convinced you not to switch your vote. | ||
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This leaves wherebugsgo, Meapak_Ziphh, and jaybrundage. jaybrundage strikes me a genuinely new at this game, and I think a newbie would be more giddy about the QT, about making plans and talking to his scumbuddy before doing something crazy. I don't think a newbie as scum would overplay his newbieness in his very first game. I don't see him voting for wherebugsgo if he were scum, he'd be a lot more worried about getting caught and about his QT. This leaves wherebugsgo, and Meapak_Ziphh. I think this is very hard to decide but I don't think that Mr. Wiggles would have pushed for Meapak_Ziphh if Meapak_Ziphh had been his scumbuddy. This is again the "You don't bus your teammate 2v7 day1" idea, they wouldn't want the lynch to be between them as one of them would clearly get lynched then. I think if Meapak_Ziphh had been scum, Mr. Wiggles would have had better targets for lynch that day, such as hiro protagonist but also jaybrundage and Erandorr. This leaves wherebugsgo. I think it would be very hard to catch wherebugsgo doing anything overly scummy because, as Palmar stated, he is quite good at scum. - He doesn't hammer Mr. Wiggles on a flaky foundation of "liking his points about Erandorr". - He tries to make us focus on hiro protagonist and jaybrundage after lynch, two people who might appear as easy targets but I doubt that either of them is scum. - He needlessly softclaims power role in his very first post. I don't think that this alone is enough to pin wherebugsgo as scum but by the process of elimination, I think he's the player who is most likely to be the last scum. | ||
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I feel kinda good about it. | ||
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On November 18 2011 15:19 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Also if you were RB'd time to claim. Remember, only mafia knows who they RB'd so in this game if some claims RB with no CC it's like a free dt check. Derp, remaining scum can just not have role blocked and then claim role blocked himself. | ||
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You had no case on Meapak_Ziphh. Even if you don't want to discard jaybrundage's scummy behavior as newbie behavior, you really still should come up with whatever else you have. You are most likely prime target for scum tonight, I don't get why they didn't shoot you last night but maybe they are afraid of doctor/jailor, so in any case it would be pretty sweet if you could show us at least some of your Meapak_Ziphh analysis. If jaybrundage had been scum, don't you think that Mr. Wiggles would have given him a bit of advice before his demise? Do you think Mr. Wiggles would say "you should go for sandroba tomorrow" when, just by reputation and jaybrundage's leaves-a-lot-to-be-desired-play, you could get jaybrundage lynched without even cooking up a case at all? I agree that jaybrundage is scummy, but it just doesn't look like he's been in a QT with Mr. Wiggles at all. All his scummy behavior can be explained by him being noob, and it doesn't make sense how he should act like this in his first game as scum. It really doesn't. Also, the "mafia is not your thing at all" is a bit harsh, we are kinda trying to attract people to this sub forum not scare them away with elitism. Everybody has a shitty first game, well at least I did. @jaybrundage On November 19 2011 08:07 jaybrundage wrote: sigh WBG you not gonna throw this game too T_T I'm not sure if your town or scum but if you town your not doing a good read if your scum then to be expected i guess What did you expect and why? What do you mean "throw this game too", what other game did he throw? What other games did you read? On November 19 2011 08:38 jaybrundage wrote: [...] I have to go over WBG posts a bit more before i comment about him What did you find when rereading wherebugsgo's posts? What made you vote for him? Be honest dude. | ||
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I don't want to lynch you but you can't expect people to defend you the slightest if you're not around and being active. So start being around and being active. | ||
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Hey did you read the thread? If so, why did you elect not to answer my questions? | ||
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At the danger of being ever more of an idiot I don't think that hiro protagonist is scum. I skimmed some of his earlier games and he always looks like this. This post from PYP:I looks the same as his posts here, he never says anybody is scum. He mostly just focuses on who is town. Now, I know that there was a mayoral election on day1 in PYP:I but people still had to scum hunt. Also his logic was way off as illustrated in posts like this. I think his posts in that game looks a lot like his posts in this game, he is trying, in his own peculiar way, to create what he think is is a good townie atmosphere. The most townie tell for hiro protagonist in my opinion is that he voted for Mr. Wiggles as fourth. I don't think the lynch was certain at that point and I don't think that he bussed Mr. Wiggles. While sandroba had said that he liked the Mr. Wiggles lynch he had not voted yet and I don't think that anybody would bus their scum buddy on day1. I don't think scum would want any of them to die on day1 since that would give town 3 lynches to find the last scum, that's really uphill. I would like to lynch wherebugsgo. The simplest explanation is that scum don't want to die day1, don't draw attention to each other, and that overly newbie play is probably because someone is ... very new at this game. This leaves wherebugsgo. Also, I don't hate wherebugsgo's play, I think he's pretty good at mafia both as scum and as town, but whatever. I don't like the no lynch idea. | ||
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jaybrundage is not scum because I think that a newbie would not throw a crazy vote 5 minutes into the game without consulting his much more experienced scum buddy. I don't think Mr. Wiggles would have gone out without giving jaybrundage some advice and I don't think jaybrundage looks coached, his newbieness looks very real. I am never sure that anybody is scum. If I could lynch anybody right now I would lynch wherebugsgo, that's how sure I am but I kinda wanted some input from the rest of you before I made a case and none of you seem too hooked on the idea ... other than jaybrundage. I don't like the no lynch idea because I don't think it is a good idea to blues. In case we don't have a detective there's going to be a ton of WIFOM involved, also it could all go wrong. And the way it looks, we're going to lynch jaybrundage, the guy who might be the hardest to get a concrete read on. Scum is never going to shoot him and we'll be left with your null tell still in 3 real days.
I like the best case scenarios. I don't like the worst case scenarios. Imagine if we sit here in two days, our doc dead and another townie dead, no one claiming any other blue role and jaybrundage still alive. How would you like that situation? I don't like the idea of putting a huge responsibility on the blue(s) when we have no idea if they have the skill or ability to even further town's goal this game with an additional two nights to perform their actions. Ideally, we win the game but I'd much rather lynch jaybrundage than no lynch. If jaybrundage is at 4 votes at the end of the day I'll switch to him. This isn't all thought out I admit but I'm not a huge statistics buff. I still think it's not a great idea to no lynch. | ||
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wherebugsgo's scum is not afraid of arguing at all, and I don't think he bussed Mr. Wiggles in any way by pointing out one single scummy thing, especially not when he didn't push it at all after it. It was only because other players started asking questions and because, something no one could have foreseen, we decided that hiro protagonist wasn't scum, that Mr. Wiggles was brought up as lynch again. | ||
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I'd much rather see jaybrundage hang than a no lynch. He's the second most scummy by far, even though I'd still prefer wherebugsgo. If there are 4 votes on jaybrundage before deadline, I'm gonna switch to him. @sandroba What do you want to do tomorrow then if jaybrundage flips green? You said you had a harder time reading newbies than more seasoned players, and I feel that your jaybrundage lynch isn't as much a scum read as it is a you-will-never-get-a-read-on-him-anyway read. Also, you could be dead tomorrow so I hope that you will be active tonight if jaybrundage doesn't flip scum. | ||
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On November 20 2011 05:45 wherebugsgo wrote: I don't see what you are seeing in those posts, but hiro's posts in this game do not look like that. Also he's not focusing on finding townies in this game, and I don't even think the two games are comparable. Lastly, if the bolded were the case then I am not scum. I wanted Wiggles to be lynched, but I thought hiro was a better choice. If I were scum, I would've acted upon the fact that there were four votes left and hammered Wiggles. I'm very decisive as scum and not afraid of starting arguments, but I am afraid of things that make me look bad long term. Not hammering wiggles, I admit, made me look really bad. I also straddled the fence because I was unsure between hiro and wiggles, though my gut kept saying hiro was the better lynch. Ofc, at this point we don't know if hiro is scum or not, so I could very well still be right. I reasoned after the flip that it was unlikely though, since hiro voted fourth on Wiggles. I was the one who pointed this out to Meapak, who said the focus should be on me+hiro. If I were scum why would I point that out to Meapak, and basically give him a free pass to attack me? If I were scum I would have no interest in giving information to town, that would work against my win condition. I could have simply let Meapak chase after hiro because he missed the fact that hiro was the fourth vote on Wiggles. He is focusing on finding townies. Maybe this is because he doesn't trust his own scum hunting abilities and instead he tries to find townies that he can trust. I think he has more confidence as scum, since he knows he's wrong and that he can't possibly he right it's easier to be more assertive. You even complained about it yourself that his list of reads didn't contain a single scum read. Yes, it made you look bad that you didn't hammer Mr. Wiggles. You can say that you wanted him lynched as much as you want. You pointed out something that 6 townies would have figured out eventually (I knew it, I would have stated it if you hadn't). These are easy points for scum to get town credit, you point out something that's important but that's going to be figured out in a short while anyway. On November 20 2011 05:45 wherebugsgo wrote: This is WIFOM, though. I agree with you that Meapak doesn't look scum, but for different reasons than this. You can't simply assume scum won't make other scum look bad, because that's not always true. Think about it, I don't think Palmar would've said he thought the optimal play for scum day 1 was to bus unless it actually has happened. I didn't agree with it earlier but it's certainly possible, we just cannot rule things out based on unbased assumptions. That's how, for example, town often falls into the trap of getting a "confirmed townie" and letting him live. No, it is not WIFOM that two scum do not want a lynch to be between themselves on day1. They want both to make it through day1. Palmar said to ignore everything he said during the night including his hard bussing theory, a theory that also surprised me as I wrote in the thread. I don't propose lynching only between those who didn't vote for Mr. Wiggles, but I think that it is very much more likely that we find scum there so that's where I'm looking. We can think about something else later. On November 20 2011 05:45 wherebugsgo wrote: Wait again, how can you assume this? One person thinks jay looks coached, you think he doesn't look coached. Don't you see that there is no room here to just assume those things? We can't have it both ways, since between you and Meapak there's nothing objective that furthers one argument over the other. Yea, it's hard to be objective about whether someone looks coached or not. Same about whether someone looks genuine or fake or fabricate and all that. I can only say that I doubt Mr. Wiggles would go out without giving some advice to his newbie scum buddy. Mr. Wiggles put a lot of effort into the thread when he was about to get lynched, do you really think he just totally ignored jaybrundage in the QT? That would make no sense. On November 20 2011 05:45 wherebugsgo wrote: Up till this statement you hadn't said anything scummy, but I find this really strange. You wanted to lynch me, but you didn't push it strongly because you wanted other people's approval? That's backward thinking, you make a case on someone you think is scum and THEN you see how other people react. Waiting to make a case because you want to hear other opinions is rather weird, because you won't usually hear much unless you actually make the case to begin with. Look through my games. I doubt I've ever pushed any lynch harder than this. On November 20 2011 05:45 wherebugsgo wrote: I hope you meant three votes and not four, since four votes means jay would already be hammered and you would be wasting your vote. Most of the rest of the post is rather weird because the best case in all of the situations is that we win the game and the worst case is we lose! (lol wut) I mean, what was the point of all of that? Yes, three of course. Yes, it's a weird post. I just wanted to show that I'd thought about it, in the end I arrived at the same conclusion as a lot of other people: it's not worth it. I'm not a statistics buff so I can't give you numbers but it just seems to risky and town is in a good position right now so I don't think it's worth it. On November 20 2011 05:45 wherebugsgo wrote: As sandro pointed out (sometime yesterday?) sandro actually, from a scum perspective, probably doesn't have much thread cred. Look at it this way; by the end of day 1 he was one of the most inactive players, he was relatively indecisive, and there was never any suspicion on him. Even now there has been no suspicion on him. That's an excellent opportunity for scum to open up an attack, since they love players like that. It makes it look as if they are doing real analysis, they are obviously making an original attack, since no one else found that person scummy, and analysis can be fabricated because the player is relatively inactive. When you think about it like that, it's not so far-fetched that a scum player would attack sandro. The bigger assumption is actually the one you're making, that a new player wouldn't attack sandro since he's a well-known good townie or whatever. That assumption relies on wiggles telling him that, and trying to figure out what scum would do in that kind of situation is very similar to predicting or making sense of night kills; only scum know that. sandroba has a lot of town credit, he hammered Mr. Wiggles. I don't think you could pick a worse day2 target than sandroba, especially for a new guy since he's gonna get destroyed no matter what. It's a bit hard to judge since jaybrundage is new but I just think he strikes me as a new guy with a very misguided attack on sandroba. A lot of new players think they've figured it out and that they're batman, that's what he uses to explain his late Mr. Wiggles vote too, a crazy plan that makes no sense. I think newbies like these and it fits on him, while I think that it's hard to overplay the newbie card as a newbie. | ||
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Sucks for you jaybrundage. ##Unvote ##Vote jaybrundage See you tonight. | ||
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##Vote wherebugsgo Does anybody disagree with this? | ||
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You help me lynch wherebugsgo today, I'll help you lynch sandroba tomorrow. Deal? Also, if there is a cop somewhere he kinda needs to claim today, but yea I agree with sandroba that that is very unlikely. | ||
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Man, if wherebugsgo doesn't flip scum then I seriously need to get my brain checked. | ||
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happy bday Meapak_Ziphh, hiro protagonist, where the hell are you guys? | ||
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sandroba isn't scum or he wouldn't have shut down the hiro protagonist lynch that hard and with that little reason and then stuck with it, when Mr. Wiggles was looking suspicious and ended up getting lynched. I would like to lynch wherebugsgo and then I'd like to lynch Meapak_Ziphh. | ||
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Also the night kills make perfect sense, scum felt very threatened after day1 and they needed to shoot Palmar or sandroba. That was a chance to take after they got behind day1 and when that worked out they're targeting less prominent townies because now they can play it more safe. Shooting Palmar was a nice, if a little risky move by wherebugsgo. | ||
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I'm gonna stick to my guns too, I'm voting wherebugsgo and I suggest everybody do the same. We lynched a guy I had a townie read on yesterday, I'm not going to repeat that mistake again today. I really thought you'd drop all this lynching-people-you-can't-really-read thing after jaybrundage flipped town but apparently not. hiro protagonist is town and wherebugsgo is scum and it's pretty frustrating that you can't see this. Also, this game is lost, nobody else wants to lynch wherebugsgo except maybe hiro protagonist and he's gone after today, sandroba wants to kill me and Meapak_Ziphh wants to kill sandroba. | ||
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I don't think Mr. Wiggles was bussed and I don't think he tried to bus anyone. This leaves wherebugsgo. This is a very simple premise with a very simple conclusion, yet you'd rather think "scum probably lynched each other on day1". I think this is very weird. On top of that, I have a much easier time thinking that hiro protagonist is town than that wherebugsgo is town. wherebugsgo did some questionable decision making day1 and I don't think he's done better since then. I don't know much about Mr. Wiggles, but judging from his scum play this game, he is not the greatest scum player ever. I am not the greatest town player ever but even I caught on to him. (sorry dude) I have played a few games with hiro protagonist and right now he strikes me as town. I don't think he would have the audacity to throw the 4th vote on his scum buddy on day1. His activity level and his reads so far have seemed to me like his usual town play. It is also worth mentioning that he just quit TL Mafia XVII because he had some urgency, so he's not just doing the scummy lurker thing right now. Man. I was really hoping that you'd drop the lynch-people-who-are-bad-townies-because-you-can't-get-a-good-read-on-them-thing after jaybrundage flipped town. I'm not going to vote for another townie again. | ||
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During day1 he pretty much shut down he hiro protagonist lynch while directing some attention over to Mr. Wiggles. This doesn't seem scummy to me at all, but at the same time, maybe it was clear that hiro protagonist wasn't going to get lynched and that Mr. Wiggles had said something scummy. These are posts from before sandroba's that are skeptical about lynching hiro protagonist while questioning Mr. Wiggles plan: About Mr. Wiggles About Mr. Wiggles About Mr. Wiggles About Mr. Wiggles About hiro protagonist 4 people had pointed out that Mr. Wiggles' first post was terrible. I don't know if it was clear that hiro protagonist wasn't going to get lynched, the guy did mostly only scummy stuff. If sandroba was scum it would have been very risky for him to say that hiro protagonist wasn't scum and that Mr. Wiggles should be the one we should focus on. He does leave the door open for lynching jaybrundage though. His vote was the 5th vote on Mr. Wiggles, meaning that he effectively sealed the deal. jaybrundage had said since the beginning of the game that no lynch was bad bad so he clearly wanted somebody dead. The alternative to Mr. Wiggles was hiro protagonist who had two votes. sandroba's next big post came 30 mins before the deadline. At this point jaybrundage had already voted for Mr. Wiggles and Mr. Wiggles was effectively dead. Pretty much I think sandroba has a habit this game of getting somebody lynched, and then pushing for them after that. He's seemed kinda lazy all game, maybe he just doesn't want to lynch anybody without an analysis but it's always late because he's being lazy. What bothers me about sandroba in general is that he has now pushed for two green townies. He claims to have problems with inexperienced players and he wants to tie Mr. Wiggles to a person with no town pull. In Team Melee Mafia the guy cast two votes on day1, nailing both scum. What I'm trying to say is that he's usually a beast, but this game he's just been lynching into not-so-great players because he has this idea that Mr. Wiggles was paired with a guy with no influence, and because he can't read not-so-great players for shit. After rereading again, I'm still thinking town though. Yea that was just some thoughts on this game so far. I'm gonna write more later. I'm very dissatisfied that we didn't kill wherebugsgo instead of the two greenies but I just don't think that sandroba is scum. Un an unrelated note I noticed that Palmar was 1st vote on Mr. Wiggles, he was 1st shot. Erandorr was 2nd vote on Mr. Wiggles, he was 2nd shot. This doesn't bode well for me, even though I think maybe they were also shot because of their skills  | ||
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Right so before Mr. Wiggles died he made this post about some Palmar, me, and more importantly, Meapak_Ziphh. I am saying "scum does not want scum to die on day, so Mr. Wiggles wouldn't push for another scum when he's on the chopping block, because this would mean that scum would die". People are saying "lol haven't u herd about distancing?". I understand the concept but this is not what Mr. Wiggles was doing, he was actually trying to get Meapak_Ziphh. If you don't trust me, then trust Palmar who said it looked like a genuine push in the next post. Now you can say "but this is still all just distancing." but if they had already decided that the lynch was going to be between them, that one of them would have to die, then why the hell didn't Meapak_Ziphh just move his vote over to Mr. Wiggles? If, at this point in the game, they had already decided to distance themselves from each other then why the hell didn't Meapak_Ziphh distance himself from Mr. Wiggles? Meapak_Ziphh's play this game hasn't been totally impressive, but it is very hard to do something impressive in a game this small. He voted hiro protagonist because hiro protagonist was way scummier. I totally agree with him on this actually, the amount of scummyness that hiro protagonist had displayed at this point was way bigger than what Mr. Wiggles had done, but in the light of what you should expect from those players Mr. Wiggles was still the scummier. I don't expect Meapak_Ziphh to know this I don't think he's ever thought very hard about hiro protagonist before. He also very subtly and offhandedly points out very important points throughout the game, but not for the purpose of bringing them up later as a defense or anything. I think this is very townie of him. I had more but ... On wherebugsgo Oh shit it's almost deadline. Well he's scum and I have some points but I can't post them lol. I'll post if I'm still alive in 5 mins. Not only is wherebugsgo the last scum, he's also the role blocker. If there is a role cop and he didn't claim then the guy is a moron, and nobody here is a moron so we can rule that out. This makes this a 2of3 setup. If there is a jailer out there and he didn't claim yet, that's is slightly more understandable, but it is still useless and I think it's very unlikely. This makes this a 2of2 setup. I'd say that there is a 98% chance that town has a doc left and no other blues. wherebugsgo probably knew this way before I even said anything. I think he has a good chance of pulling off a shot tonight though it all comes down to WIFOM. I think he's been enjoying this game so far, keeping me alive knowing that he's scum but not being able to do anything about it like a modern day Cassandra. If I'm not alive tomorrow, which is very likely as nobody would protect me but WIFOM, please please don't make the lynch between you two Meapak_Ziphh and sandroba. Lynch wherebugsgo. | ||
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##Vote wherebugsgo And I'm gonna finish my post. | ||
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On wherebugsgo Mr. Wiggles only touches on him once and that is right here: On November 16 2011 10:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote: [...] Wherebugsgo: This is interesting, because he comes in rather later than everyone else and puts effort into attacking my post after most people had left it. It's a case of people jumping on a bad post and repeating what had already been said, because bashing something bad is easy and gets you brownie-points from town. It was mostly left alone until he brought it up again, so I'm curious as to why he did so. He didn't contribute anything that hadn't been said already, so what's the motivation? I mostly see bad players and scum do this, and I don't consider WBG to be a bad player. [...] This is distancing is anything is distancing. It is subtle, it doesn't make sense and he feels the need to point out how "This is interesting". He also talks about other players but he stays more analytic when talking about them. In this post he has a hard time coming up with anything on wherebugsgo, so he feels like he has to point out that what he's saying here is actually interesting then he says that he is scummy, but why does he think he's scummy? Because he pointed out that Mr. Wiggles was scummy, which he was. This isn't scummy at all, what Mr. Wiggles does here is very subtle distancing. While his entire post seemed fake, this seemed more fake than the rest of it in my eyes. On November 18 2011 20:10 sandroba wrote: WBG I think is town because he didn't attack my credibility even though he could have easily done so and get away with it since I've posted very little in the first 24 hours. This is insanity. You are saying that "wbg is town because he didn't do this scummy thing that he would always do" this is WIFOM. I know you think that wherebugsgo would have tried to lynch Meapak_Ziphh over Mr. Wiggles but I think he was very much afraid this would have tied them too hard together. I think wherebugsgo has also changed his style considerably from day1 to the next days, we all have but wherebugsgo in a different way. wherebugsgo's town is usually somewhat aggressive but most of all it is KICKASS. Look at day1, he made a huge post laying everything down and voting hiro protagonist. Look at him since then, he's just bandwagon'd sandroba. He doesn't really do any active scum hunting or analysis which really doesn't strike me as him. I'd suspect even him of altering his behavior when being 1v7. Also, wherebugsgo felt the need to soft claim blue role in first post so he could claim blue in order to muddy up the thread later. His claim right now means absolutely nothing, because the guy knows that there aren't any jailers in this game. He knows that this is a 2of2 setup as I cleared up in my post just before deadline. This jailer claim means absolutely nothing now he is only doing it to fuck everything up, and he knows this. ANY jailer with a brain (and I consider wherebugsgo to be pretty smart) would have claimed earlier, a claim right now makes absolutely no sense unless there was still some uncertainty about the setup, which there very much isn't. If a jailer didn't claim before now he would be an idiot. There are no idiots in this game. wherebugsgo therefor knows that there are no jailers. wherebugsgo claims jailer. wherebugsgo is not an idiot. wherebugsgo is a liar. wherebugsgo is a scum. THE LOGIC IS GOD DAMN IRREFUTABLE. We're going to god damn lynch wherebugsgo today. I'm sure sandroba and Meapak_Ziphh is going to fuck this up somehow but god dammit, please don't. On a no lynch today, we either lynch wherebugsgo or there's not going to be a lynch. wherebugsgo is going for Meapak_Ziphh and sandroba, he can't get either one of those lynched without my help (horay extended majority) and I'm not helping scum lynch another townie. | ||
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Also, I just wrote a bunch of stuff it would be sweet if any of you guys have time to comment on it. Thank you. | ||
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Build a bigger case on sandroba than that two liner. | ||
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I'm doctor. What do you people think about that? I'm especially interested in sandroba's thoughts. I still think that wherebugsgo is scum by the way. I am not lynching a guy I think is townie after two nights of lynching people that other people thought were scum but I thought were townies. | ||
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How do you feel about nobody dying last night? | ||
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I am not the jailer, or I would have jailed him ages ago and exposed him. If not, then he could have role blocked jailer-me and then hit someone and I'd most likely take my suspicion off him. I never did that. If any of sandroba/deconduo is role blocker, they would have to counter claim him, but that okay because he's already casting a lot of suspicion on them and neither of them breadcrumbed anything. A cop claim would be lunacy. Then you might as well just not claim. I only claimed because sandroba took wherebugsgo's claim for face value because there were no other blues, otherwise I would not have claimed because: when you claim on last day it all comes down to how believable your claim is along with how much people think you're town. If people don't think you're town, then all it does is spread confusion. If wherebugsgo hit sandroba last night he would have to role claim jailer. If the hit was saved by a doc then he wouldn't know it, but he could have been jailed. Not by me but by one of you and sandroba. In a situation where there is no hit, the first guy who claims jailer will always have the upper hand over the guy who counter claims I'd think. Otherwise either you or sandroba would claim jailer and throw more suspicion on to wherebugsgo, while he would just sit there and counter claim later with a ton or breadcrumbs leading to the question "why didn't you claim straight after the no hit?". @wherebugsgo You said you breadcrumbed your jails, where exactly did you do that? Some quotes or something, I couldn't find it in the big breadcrumb post. Not that I don't believe you 'cause scum wherebugsgo wouldn't claim to have done such a thing and then not have done it and neither would town wherebugsgo. @deconduo How do you feel about how hard sandroba shut down hiro protagonist as lynch candidate for day1? He really stuck his neck out there, there wasn't too much analysis it was just "I looks more like he just accidentally". That was really ballsy, and that was at a point where attention was slowly shifting towards Mr. Wiggles. Why the hell would a scum sandroba do this? He could have pushed hiro protagonist harder and he has a lot of town sway, that could very likely have ended in a hiro protagonist lynch on day1, and a hiro protagonist lynch that no one could blame anybody for because the dude didn't really bring his a-game. Your point that sandroba voted Mr. Wiggles because wherebugsgo or Meapak_Ziphh would have voted hiro protagonist just to avoid a null lynch is stupid. It is insane. They both voted hiro protagonist, so if he had achieved majority (Meapak_Ziphh, wherebugsgo, jaybrundage, sandroba, Mr. Wiggles), and they all thought that hiro protagonist was more scummy, and then they suddenly changed to Mr. Wiggles? That would make no sense, a townie would never do that, and a scum would never change his vote to push his buddy into the gallows in place of a very scummy townie. ALSO I NEVER AGREED TO THE SHORTENING OF ANYTHING INCLUDING DAYS PLEASE | ||
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wherebugsgo also never shies away from pointing out how his scum play this game does not fit his meta. It's like pulling yourself up by your hair "I am not scum because I am not acting like I would act when I am scum!". sandroba wants to let scum wherebugsgo win because he breacrumbed a role claim and because sandroba lead the town into two stupid mislynches. Derp. | ||
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wherebugsgo, my response is in the paragraph above. It's latin letters. Something tells me that you're scum and I just can't shake it. In the end, I'd much rather think that you're a great scum than that you're a weird not-too-great jailer-townie. Sorry about that. ##Unvote ##Vote sandroba We can end day whenever. | ||
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I just don't get it. sandroba is 100% town in my book. Meapak_Ziphh/deconduo is 10% scum and wherebugsgo is 90% scum. We're talking certainty, not quantity, because then wherebugsgo would be 100%. Man. | ||
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wherebugsgo, how would you like switching to deconduo instead of sandroba? | ||
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I mean .. what kind of question is that? I'd rather lynch wherebugsgo than lynch anybody else. If neither sandroba nor deconduo thinks that wherebugsgo is scum, then there's a good chance that he's town. If wherebugsgo is town then he's probably better at judging this situation than I am. That's why, if I can't lynch wherebugsgo, I'm going to follow him. It is up to sandroba and deconduo if they want to lynch the other dude then you have to reason with wherebugsgo. You must realize that if he is town, then he's a lot easier to reason with than I am, he is better at playing town than I am. If somebody wants a no lynch we can do that but you need to have something to add tomorrow 'cause other than that you're just going to lose a townie in exchange for WIFOM, or you'll have a repeat of today and I see no reason for that unless you have something to actually add. If you tell me you need more time I will no lynch, if not then I will proceed with voting with wherebugsgo. You've been lazy all game and you've lynched two townies. I don't see why you couldn't be scum even though I think it would be weird how you acted on day1 and how you've acted today. I still think that wherbugsgo is the last scum but I gotta listen to sandroba and deconduo, one of them is town right? Also, I'm sick and tired of pushing wherebugsgo, I've been doing it for like a week and there's only ever been one single other vote on him, for like a couple of hours. | ||
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Can anybody answer this question?! | ||
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I also don't think he is scum because he just shut down the option of him voting hiro protagonist on day1. He just said "I don't feel that his posts are genuine" and that is characteristic lazy sandroba, and he couldn't really flip flop on it. At that point there were a lot of people who were starting to take a good look at Mr. Wiggles and I don't think scum sandroba would have tried to shut down hiro protagonist so hard if he was scum, he would have left the door open. I think that him lynching hiro protagonist and jaybrundage was shit. This speaks against him but it's classic lazy sandroba again. He already said day1 that he has problems with bad/scum distinction but I don't know how true that is since I only have his word for it. Meapak_Ziphh has not been very impressive. Nothing speaks in his favor except how I don't think that scum would bus on day1, and if they did they would probably do it harder. When Mr. Wiggles started his case on Meapak_Ziphh the lynch would very likely be between the two, why didn't Meapak_Ziphh vote Mr. Wiggles for town credit then? Instead he stayed on hiro protagonist. Maybe they were afraid that the distancing would be too obvious if Meapak_Ziphh bussed on an OMGUS of sort, maybe Meapak_Ziphh had attacked hiro protagonist too hard to think that he could switch, but a lot of people had switched from hiro protagonist on hardly any reasonable other than "dun thnk hes scum" why shouldn't he be able to do that too? Conclusion: Meapak_Ziphh is more scummy than sandroba. As for words like "genuine" and "fabricated" and stuff like that, I have no idea. Mr. Wiggles' stuff looked fake, but the reads I'm getting from sandroba and Meapak_Ziphh are too weak that I'm gonna trust them. If you held a gun to my head I'd say that sandroba looked more fake but that's nothing to go on at all. | ||
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Why would Mr. Wiggles, who had already been called out for being fake and fabricated, try to make a case on Meapak_Ziphh? He could have doomed his scumbuddy if he had slipped up somehow. I'm the wrong person to ask about the credit thing, because I have a hard time caring about stuff like that. I believe sandroba is telling the truth from his perspective, he probably thinks he was the first one to point out. If he wasn't, then he made a mistake, a mistake that might just as well have been a townie mistake as it could have been a scum mistake. This is a 20 page game, not some 200 page monster. He will be called out when he says stuff like that, to me it's a null tell really. I ,too, actually thought at some point during this game that I was the first to call Mr. Wiggles out but then I reread the thread and I think you were the first one to call him out. It seems like lazy sandroba to me, and I don't think it says very much about his alignment. I don't think there is any denying that sandroba had a big role in Mr. Wiggles demise on day1, but that is mainly due to his opposition to the hiro protagonist lynch and his support of the Mr. Wiggles lynch, not so much his vote even though it obviously did something too. | ||
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##Unvote ##Vote deconduo | ||
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If deconduo and sandroba find out that they'd rather lynch wherebugsgo I'm still all for that, lol. Also, this has been a very fun game. It's really hard to tie scum to somebody else when he dies night1. I think we wasted 2 lynches just blindly following sandroba on his crusade against newer players. These things have left us in a pretty hard situation here at mylo. | ||
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That shit is scummy as fuck. You're trying to convince sandroba not to vote for you right now. | ||
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I try to learn something from every game I am in but I am having a hard time seeing what I could have done differently in this game. I feel like I had good reads and I really tried hard to argue for myself but it just seemed like there was no way to convince anybody of anything I said. I argued against lynching jaybrundage and against lynching hiro protagonist and all the while I argued for lynching wherebugsgo. Was there anything I could have done differently/better to maybe have a better chance of getting wherebugsgo lynched over the two townies? I really think I thought everything through very thoroughly and I didn't think it would make sense that anybody else should be the last scum. I got this idea at the beginning of day2 and it stayed with me all the way. I have no idea how I was able to argue for the same lynch 3 days in a row without getting lynched, shot or having my lynch go through. I would like if somebody could possibly explain this to me. There was probably a lot I missed and maybe I even suspected wherebugsgo for the wrong reasons, maybe this was why I could not garner any support at all. How could I have made wherebugsgo slip up in a way that would convince other people to consider the possibility of him being scum? Was there anything I should have mentioned that I didn't? I think I wrote a ton of stuff about him in the thread and I never seriously considered that anybody else could be scum. It just didn't make any sense when I thought about it. About my doctor role, I think it used it absolutely right. sandroba and Palmar were my candidates for night1 protect. There were no major reasons to have either one with me into mid/late game over the other, and they were obviously prime targets for a scum that had to take chances after a disastrous day1. Maybe I should have brought Palmar because he stays more active, but I thought that sandroba is better scum hunter and that he is more level headed and less likely just go on a crusade and have everybody follow mostly because of his reputation. It's too far fetched to say anything about how the game would have turned out if I had protected Palmar over sandroba on night1, but if I could play this over I'd definitely give him benefit of the doubt and protect Palmar instead. wherebugsgo played a terrific game and I'm sure he had his fun too, but I also think that town did pretty bad considering what a great start we had. Thanks to Radfield and chaoser for hosting. | ||
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On November 26 2011 19:54 jaj22 wrote: Couldn't believe no-one picked up on this at the time :-) What is there to pick up? That's what sandroba thought too and he's one of the best regular townies on this subforum. | ||
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I couldn't tell that you were feeling on your game and I have no idea if what that means, if anything, really. Also, last day was mylo, not lylo. So why should I have claimed first thing at mylo/lylo? I think if you're considered townie then you might as well just wait and see if somebody else claims something stupid and then you just won the game. The jaybrundage lynch was very stupid I think too but maybe for different reasons, I tried to prevent it from happening but I thought that if sandroba got jaybrundage out of the way maybe he'll come around and see things my way. This was also one of the reasons I thought wherebugsgo was scum, I doubt he would have allowed that to happen but I was kinda powerless. How could I have prevented it? I made an argument that he seemed genuinely newbie, his day1 vote didn't fit how I think newbie scum would play, and Mr. Wiggles would have left him something to go by which he would have followed, and that something wasn't "go for sandroba". What could I have done more to prevent it? The logic itself "Mr. Wiggles probably had a scum buddy with low to no town pull" is (obviously) not fail proof, even though I think it's not too stupid either. @wherebugsgo I'm very interested, did you hit sandroba on night4 or did you just hold your shot? If you hit sandroba then that makes your jailer claim even more impressive, but yea I doubt it. Also, why didn't you just hit me and then make lynch between sandroba/Meakap_Ziphh/deconduo on last day with your jailer claim? | ||
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On November 26 2011 20:26 jaj22 wrote: It's missing the qualifier for the case that Hiro is scum (and so no re-evaluation would be required), which suggests that the possibility isn't prominent in his mind. Odd given that he had Hiro as one of his two scum candidates at the start of the day. I may be wrong, but I felt it was a line that WBG was unlikely to write in the circumstances if he wasn't scum. Maybe you're right but I'm just not a big fan of stuff like that. A one liner is nothing to lynch by, it might attract some attention but that thing there, I doubt it would have convinced anybody of anything. Did you follow the game by the way, I have never seen you in here before? You should join a game some time. I mean a townie would have to reevaluate if the lynch is town too. Some people say that townies should always just think that their lynch is 100% scum but the only people who know other people's alignment for sure are scum. If anything, this is an unnecessary townie tell that really just degenerates into WIFOM so I would just ignore it (and I did). | ||
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On November 27 2011 07:02 syllogism wrote: Sandroba actually thought you were 99% scum after the claim because your protections made no sense at all. You had the game won until you made the claim as sandroba was completely convinced meapak was it before that sandroba didn't think wherebugsgo was scum, he voted him briefly after I claimed doc but then he decided that the claim was too good for wherebugsgo to be scum and he voted deconduo. Game over. If wherebugsgo had not claimed and Meapak_Ziphh or sandroba had been jailer and claimed that, then he would have to counter claim and that would put him in a more difficult situation I think. He might as well just claim straight up, especially when he had it breadcrumbed so well. | ||
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