|
On December 01 2011 12:29 wherebugsgo wrote:
Multi-lynch doesn't function the same way a vig does. In fact, it's much harder to get multi-lynch to work the way you want it to than a vig.
Lynch methods are highly manipulable by scum. No offense to the scumteam, but with this town if any of you actually played aggressive scum you would've managed to lynch 3-4 townies everyday and would've been able to win even faster.
Multilynch is good if the town is competent. A vig can compensate for chaos and stupid townies. Multilynch can't. In fact, the dumber the town, the more mafia-favored multilynch is.
EDIT: I would've loved this setup as scum.
However it would've felt unfair lol.
I have a challenge for you; try to make it through a game without calling someone any version of incompetent, dumb, bad, idiotic, useless, etc. Post-game included.
|
it's true though, all of us townies played incredibly badly.
There's nothing more to say other than we were incompetent.
|
On December 01 2011 12:35 Zona wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:29 wherebugsgo wrote:
Multilynch is good if the town is competent. A vig can compensate for chaos and stupid townies. You missed something. A smart vig can compensate... But if you have a game full of stupid townies like the scenario you describe, it's just as probable, if not moreso, that a stupid townie snags the vig role, and that helps how? Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 12:29 wherebugsgo wrote:
Multilynch can't. In fact, the dumber the town, the more mafia-favored multilynch is. Indeed, you are correct. The dumber the town, the more mafia-favored ANY normal mechanic is. Unless you start adding retarded anti-snowball or similar mechanics. Okay, you know what? I get it. I shouldn't host game setups which are designed for competent players here.
No, even a dumb vig can compensate.
If smart players direct a bad player who lands a vig role he can still be useful.
I've played in a couple games, in fact, in which not the greatest player got the vig role but was still useful because he listened to the proper townies.
like, directing a vig as scum is much harder than directing a lynch. It sounds easier, since you only have to convince one person, but that person is hidden. With a lynch you can direct behind the scenes without ever directly saying what you want the lynch to be.
Then later you can punish those responsible for bad lynches with further bad lynches.
Vigilantes are kinda dumb-proof in the sense that you can only make one bad shot.
|
LOL, you should read some of the past TL games where we had plenty of dumb vigs.
If the vig you refer to listened to the proper town players, then that's not so dumb is it? That same player you refer to would listen the proper town players when it comes to voting, no?
|
no, not always.
I'm not going to name names, cause that would be mean.
In order to lead a lynch you have to convince an entire flock. In order to convince a vig you just have to convince one person.
It's actually harder as scum to do the latter because it's generally extremely hard to convince a vig to shoot someone without directly stating it.
On the other hand, scum can manipulate lynches in all sorts of ways.
EDIT:
I should clarify that I have nothing against multi-lynch. I actually think it's really cool and is an awesome dynamic to a game, with one caveat: everyone who signs up for the game actually plays the game.
Inactive people, trolls, and people who otherwise have very little interest in playing..well kinda make multilynch frustrating to deal with.
It's much easier to seed chaos and destruction in a thread where everyone has 3 votes than in one where everyone only has 1. Without a cohesive backbone town falls apart really easily.
|
I don't think the setup/balance/design of any game or sport should ever be blamed for a loss. You can blame me and the other townies if you must, but not the game. Even if it favours a side slightly, you can ALWAYS look back and find stuff you or your team could have done better during the game in order to get a win. (I'm not talking just about mafia here, you can do this with anything. Don't blame the system.)
I actually get pretty annoyed when people complain about balance or certain things being OP, in any game. I avoid SC2 live report threads now for this very reason, I just got too frustrated at all the zerg QQing about X being OP, it's bullshit.
Instead of complaining about the game, why not thank Zona for the time and effort he put into hosting it for you?
|
I'm not blaming it.
I think it's the townies' fault lol
although balance IS a concern in Mafia games. It's easier to tell with minis whether a game is balanced. It's much harder to tell if a larger game is properly balanced since it's really hard to run games with those setups enough times
|
|
|
I'm not trying to say I know more about balanced setups than you do wbg, I know I don't  . What I'm trying to say is that unless everyone plays 100% optimally and doesn't make mistakes, balance should be pretty much irrelevant to a win/loss (obviously there's gonna be exceptions for extreme cases.)
In this game for example, if me and the other inexperienced/bad/trolling townies had just played better and posted more, we would have had a much better chance at winning. It wouldn't have mattered if we didn't have vigs or if Grey's role was OP, we just needed to simply play better.
|
On December 01 2011 13:21 xsksc wrote:I'm not trying to say I know more about balanced setups than you do wbg, I know I don't . What I'm trying to say is unless everyone plays 100% correctly and doesn't make mistakes, balance should be pretty much irrelevant to a win/loss (obviously there's gonna be exceptions for extreme cases.) In this game for example, if me and the other inexperienced/bad/trolling townies had just played better and posted more, we would have had a much better chance at winning. It wouldn't have mattered if we didn't have vigs or if Grey's role was OP, we just needed to simply play better.
right, I agree with you.
My only point about the vigilantes is that multi lynch and vigilantes function differently.
It primarily depends on how you play the game, but each one gives different benefits to different factions depending on the players.
|
Yes, of course vigilantes and multi-lynch aren't identical. But the idea that the multi-lynch mechanic by itself is unfavorable to the town is entirely wrong.
It is incredibly important to have a balanced setup if players are to play seriously. It's disheartening to put an immense effort into a game only to discover later on that the odds were unfairly stacked against you. (Or that you won with the help of a very favorable setup.)
That's why I am taking the effort now to dispel incorrect accusations of imbalance about this setup, since I want players to play seriously in my future games. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered in participating in such a debate.
|
If you want to talk about balance in this game, probably ask about how many options the mafia roles had vs Town. That was the main thing I discussed with Zona since everything else seemed solid.
Also some of my favorite games that were well balanced tended to get close or actually in LYLO.
|
On December 01 2011 13:29 Zona wrote:
Yes, of course vigilantes and multi-lynch aren't identical. But the idea that the multi-lynch mechanic by itself is unfavorable to the town is entirely wrong.
It is incredibly important to have a balanced setup if players are to play seriously. It's disheartening to put an immense effort into a game only to discover later on that the odds were unfairly stacked against you. (Or that you won with the help of a very favorable setup.)
That's why I am taking the effort now to dispel incorrect accusations of imbalance about this setup, since I want players to play seriously in my future games. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered in participating in such a debate.
I think Multi-lynch is more unfavorable to a bad town than vigilantes are.
Yeah, the solution obviously is not to play badly, but I think the point has been made.
TL towns just need to step it up. (scum too, though I think town play needs to improve first before there's any reason for scum to bother)
|
On December 01 2011 13:46 Ace wrote:
If you want to talk about balance in this game, probably ask about how many options the mafia roles had vs Town. That was the main thing I discussed with Zona since everything else seemed solid.
Yes, for the record, Ace suggested that the Mafia Tracker be removed, as the mafia already had a plethora of abilities to work with, but later one of my other reviewers suggested that it be put back in. So Ace cannot be faulted for the existence of the Mafia Tracker in the game.
|
@Zona: I have a knack for coming across as a complete douchebag, sorry for that. I greatly appreciate you hosting which was both clear, very much on time compared to most hosts, and very, very comfortable to play
First off, let me say I think your game was fairly balanced, and I think the setup was for the most part very fun. The things I pointed out are not really specific to your setup, just things I enjoy or don't enjoy in general. So it's not a criticism of your game, or a lash out towards the setup, as much as it is simply me expressing how I feel about various mechanics, especially for future games.
I will be the first person to sign up for your next game, and I will enjoy it just as much as I enjoyed this one. Do not take my criticism of mechanics as a complaint the game isn't balanced. I fully appreciate how many power roles town had this game, and I'm also aware that with no other modifications, multi-lynch is good for town.
I hope we can both see the distinction of agreeing with game mechanics and agreeing about balance.
Multi-lynch vs Vigilantes
Multi-lynch in a normal game is town favored. I think we can all agree to that. The problem with it is that if you remove all the vigilantes from the game for the multi-lynch, you lose an equally important kill for town. If 5-8 people in a 30 player game are being inactive and lurking, the chances town will successfully the scum among those are very little, since every competent scum team can deflect it onto a random town lurker/useless person. When the lurkers all have equally bad thread presence, it's not even scummy to push a lynch on one of them over another.
The problem lies in the fact that when 5 people in your game have posted once, there is no case to be made against any one of them. Even if town agreed to kill a lurker, any mafia team can deflect the lurker lynch onto a townie. The vigilante has at least a chance to hit scum.
This is where the Vigilantes come in, they have a much higher chance of actually hitting the mafia lurkers, because they don't have to deal with the bureaucracy of pushing a lynch through town, when there is no evidence aginst one over the other. They make shooting lurkers fair.
I am of the opinion that every game starting from the 16-20 range desperately needs a town vigilante with at least 2 shots to clear out some of the trash.
Mass-Roleclaim
As I have already stated, I am the idiot for not reading the OP. I missed that part and it's my bad.
That doesn't change my opinion that Mass-claims should be viable as a strategy for town, and the downside should be that it gives town almost no information (due to well thought out fakeclaims) and it gives mafia much more information. That's all the downside mass-claims need. If mafia cannot fake-claim well, then that's their problem.
This is also why I like alignment cops and not detectives. It's also why I like scum doctors and town roleblockers. I like roles that can be claimed without saying anything about the alignment of the person claiming the role, and I don't like roles that can auto-confirm themselves.
But yes, it's not a criticism on your setup, as you clearly stated it'd be punishable. I just didn't read that part, which is my fault. It's a thought about game-play in general.
About day posts containing game-related information
Again, it's a difference in preference. You ask:
Hmm, I don't wish to unnecessarily antagonize you further, but posts (and PMs) by game hosts are outside factors? How are we supposed to convey game-relevant information to players if these aren't even considered part of the game?
My answer is, you should not convey any game-relevant information to players other than what's absolutely necessary. Yes, you need to give cops their check results, and you need to announce who died during the night. There is no need to give anything away about the role that killed him, or any other clue towards the game. That is for the players of the game to figure out.
Notice, that in your game this would directly buff mafia, I am not arguing balance, just game mechanics I personally don't agree with. Other people may agree with them, and I am not going to enforce my opinion onto others, I am simply going to state my point of view and explain it.
Some people enjoy clues, I don't, that's just the way things work.
So thanks for replying to my unexplained complaints in detail without lashing out, as I can clearly see now that while not intended to be an attack on the setup, but rather a disagreement with some mechanics, I may have come across as an asshole, I do that alot.
I hope you understand what I meant now.
|
Zona I really liked the setup overall, so I hope you'll host something similar in the future. I can see the multilynch system being aggravating to deal with as a townie, not because it's not incredibly town favored, but because it's much harder to herd townies when you not only have to convince them that lynching X is better than Y, but that lynching Y at all is a bad idea.
|
Also Palmar you never read the OP. Sorry I'm not always here to read it for you.
|
On December 01 2011 19:37 syllogism wrote:
Also Palmar you never read the OP. Sorry I'm not always here to read it for you.
True dat bro.
|
I didn't even give a single fuck about the mechanics in swedish house mafia.
|
On December 01 2011 14:21 Zona wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 13:46 Ace wrote:
If you want to talk about balance in this game, probably ask about how many options the mafia roles had vs Town. That was the main thing I discussed with Zona since everything else seemed solid. Yes, for the record, Ace suggested that the Mafia Tracker be removed, as the mafia already had a plethora of abilities to work with, but later one of my other reviewers suggested that it be put back in. So Ace cannot be faulted for the existence of the Mafia Tracker in the game.
Tracker wasn't too bad, and grey's role was fine in a no-mass claim scenario. The only role that needs a change is coagulations, i don't think the smokebomb was necessary, if kept it should have been split to a the vanilla scum, and on the condition that person can't save themself imo.
The lynching 6 should have been about lynching more people than the # mafia remaining.
Overall i loved the setup
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
