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On December 01 2011 03:45 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 03:30 Curu wrote:
I've never been lynched as Town!
Or scum!
Curu #1 That's just a sign you havn't played enough.
I think I've played at least double the games you have.
It's a big stretch to call me "one of the best" I just put actual effort into games I sign up for which is really all it takes. Even if you're wrong a lot of the time as long as you're reading and making sense you shouldn't get lynched as Town.
As Mafia all it really takes is for you to be active and at least somewhat making sense. TL players have spent so long posting nonsensical crap/sheeping and being super inactive that you will rarely ever see someone who is putting in effort (whether Mafia or Town) get lynched.
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On December 01 2011 05:39 Palmar wrote:
And yeah, I'll take full responsibility now that I read the OP and see there is a warning against claiming. I still think it's a retarded game mechanic, but it's my fault not reading that carefully enough. Massclaiming should be a viable tactic for town. I think it's almost always bad to do it anyway.
On November 15 2011 14:22 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 13:45 Hiroruby wrote:On November 15 2011 13:29 Kenpachi wrote:
real long day ok.
hi i am Kenpachi and i am a Townie
welcome to TL mafia to those who are just starting and i hope you have a good time here.
Thanks, I'll do my best! I too am a townie, kind of glad since I don't have to figure out how to use special abilities and such. Be careful you fools! From the OP: Show nested quote +Furthermore, there may be dangers in store for town players who claim their role.
From day posts:
"Hey, there's no giant obvious hole in this one."
"There's no pulse though, he's dead."
"Look here, there's a tiny puncture mark in his chest."
"There's another one here, behind his knees."
"What the hell? These are strange and difficult places to attack...unless the killer already knew what kind of person he was after."
"Hmm, not a flesh burner this time. But those strange tiny punctures again, in odd places."
"Hey, there's a tiny thing here on the ground. Something spring-loaded?"
"Oh, I understand - someone placed it here and simply waited for the guy to trigger them."
"That sounds so unreliable though, how would this 'someone' make sure that our victim would trigger these...things?"
"I don't know. Well, it seems this unlucky bloke was named hyshes, and he also had a medical appointment, like that Drazerk guy."
"Oh, I understand now. See this wound on his hand? It was placed deliberately to target a doctor. If this xsksc fellow didn't behave like a doctor or have their habits, it probably wouldn't have hit him at all."
After Coag died I was also the one to pick up on the smoke bomb usage (I was already dead though), am I the only one that reads the "flavor" text? :-P
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normally, flavor text is just that...flavor.
I didn't realize there would be game-relevant clues in the flavor so I didn't bother looking too deeply into it.
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On December 01 2011 05:51 chaoser wrote:
np palmar, everyone did badly. Or else town wouldn't have lost. That's something that I'm sure everyone can admit. But when WBG goes around saying "omg omg you're all so bad! that's why I made bad reads/calls/votes!" and indirectly implies that he was in no way a part of that failure, or that his bad play is somehow excused is when I call bullshit on that.
Yes, sorry.
I don't think you can say we attacked you with no reasons though. You voted Forumite with no reasoning, someone I had a pretty strong town read at the time, and later you voted sinani206, another player I had a town read on.
I also do not agree with anyone that opposes LAL. It's a policy every town game should have, all the time. It just makes things more simple for town.
And I do not agree with day 1 roleclaims.
This, in addition to the fact you acted so much like someone who _wanted_ to get votes on people and get away with it (now that you know my role you can probably understand why I noticed it), ticked me off about your play early in the game. Those are valid reasons to ask more questions, but none of them make you conclusively scum, as can be seen on your flip. Thing is, I've never played with you as town for an extended time before, and people hold you to be very good at mafia.
When I assume someone "Good at mafia" I assign them a profile to which I expect them to play to, or something in that direction. After this game, I will be accounting for the fact you are capable of playing aggressively and borderline trolling to get discussion going. This is not a bad thing, it's just something I didn't expect. (Note: you have seen me do very similar things in XLIV)
Anyway, GG everyone. I'm impressed with several new people in this game, I hope you all stick around.
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On December 01 2011 06:05 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:39 Palmar wrote:
And yeah, I'll take full responsibility now that I read the OP and see there is a warning against claiming. I still think it's a retarded game mechanic, but it's my fault not reading that carefully enough. Massclaiming should be a viable tactic for town. I think it's almost always bad to do it anyway. Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 14:22 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On November 15 2011 13:45 Hiroruby wrote:On November 15 2011 13:29 Kenpachi wrote:
real long day ok.
hi i am Kenpachi and i am a Townie
welcome to TL mafia to those who are just starting and i hope you have a good time here.
Thanks, I'll do my best! I too am a townie, kind of glad since I don't have to figure out how to use special abilities and such. Be careful you fools! From the OP: Furthermore, there may be dangers in store for town players who claim their role. From day posts: Show nested quote +
"Hey, there's no giant obvious hole in this one."
"There's no pulse though, he's dead."
"Look here, there's a tiny puncture mark in his chest."
"There's another one here, behind his knees."
"What the hell? These are strange and difficult places to attack...unless the killer already knew what kind of person he was after."
Show nested quote +"Hmm, not a flesh burner this time. But those strange tiny punctures again, in odd places."
"Hey, there's a tiny thing here on the ground. Something spring-loaded?"
"Oh, I understand - someone placed it here and simply waited for the guy to trigger them."
"That sounds so unreliable though, how would this 'someone' make sure that our victim would trigger these...things?"
"I don't know. Well, it seems this unlucky bloke was named hyshes, and he also had a medical appointment, like that Drazerk guy." Show nested quote +"Oh, I understand now. See this wound on his hand? It was placed deliberately to target a doctor. If this xsksc fellow didn't behave like a doctor or have their habits, it probably wouldn't have hit him at all." After Coag died I was also the one to pick up on the smoke bomb usage (I was already dead though), am I the only one that reads the "flavor" text? :-P
I never read dayposts. I'm of the opinion outside factors should not affect the game in any way.
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Dayposts really arn't "outside factors" though, are they? plus i think the OP was specific enough about the dangers invovled, the daypost should make us the mafia more angry if anything, because it gave you guys info about our roles.
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On December 01 2011 06:23 GreYMisT wrote:
Dayposts really arn't "outside factors" though, are they? plus i think the OP was specific enough about the dangers invovled, the daypost should make us the mafia more angry if anything, because it gave you guys info about our roles.
I still can't comprehend how you didn't get lynched on one of the final 2 days.
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On December 01 2011 06:23 GreYMisT wrote:
Dayposts really arn't "outside factors" though, are they? plus i think the OP was specific enough about the dangers invovled, the daypost should make us the mafia more angry if anything, because it gave you guys info about our roles.
No no, it's my fault.
But I do consider them outside factors. Everything that isn't direct posting by the players is.
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On December 01 2011 06:50 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 06:23 GreYMisT wrote:
Dayposts really arn't "outside factors" though, are they? plus i think the OP was specific enough about the dangers invovled, the daypost should make us the mafia more angry if anything, because it gave you guys info about our roles. I still can't comprehend how you didn't get lynched on one of the final 2 days.
Im like a ninja
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On December 01 2011 06:07 wherebugsgo wrote:
normally, flavor text is just that...flavor.
I didn't realize there would be game-relevant clues in the flavor so I didn't bother looking too deeply into it.
The only other games I have seen that in are the Insane Mafia's. Where it gives the town an idea of what powers are active. Usually its stated in the OP though.
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Reading all that hate made me sad D:
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On December 01 2011 07:44 xsksc wrote:
Reading all that hate made me sad D:
Always gets a little heated. People get over it.
I hope you're playing again, you made an excellent call protecting me night one, that required both guts and good insight, seeing as I'm always controversial.
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Also I just noticed something
GreYMisT snipes Lemonwalrus as cop (failure)
/facepalm I thought it was clear that LW was a rolecop LOL
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Did we know he was a rolecop then?
i dont even remember
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On December 01 2011 10:07 GreYMisT wrote:
Did we know he was a rolecop then?
i dont even remember
fortunately lemon screwed up too so it didnt matter 
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Allow me to defend my setup from baseless criticism.
On November 30 2011 18:43 Palmar wrote:
The multi-lynch and no vigi system was terrible. We had no reliable way of clearing out lurkers. Every TL town over the size of 16-ish should have a non-limit vigilante to shoot lurkers and useless people.
Since you're talking about the multi-lynch system's supposed inability to deal with "lurkers and useless people", I assume you're saying that the multi-lynch system (with no vigilantes) is terrible from a town perspective.
All I can say to that, is LOL.
Unless game is so unorthodox such that mafia has no nightkill and doesn't otherwise benefit during the night, the multi-lynch mechanic is tremendously beneficial to the town, so much so that the mafia must be given a significant buff to compensate. In a normal game without the multi-lynch system, for every one lynch the town performs, the mafia gets a night cycle to act and kill. Not so in a multi-lynch system, where the town can lynch multiple players before the mafia gets a night cycle to act. This is especially strong in the later stages of the game, when the town has more information from earlier days, and can be extremely powerful at LYLO, where a game can be turned completely around if the town's reads are correct.
But to consider your specific argument. How should a town player deal with someone who is lurking and/or useless? Convince the rest of town to lynch that person. The only reason not to lynch such lurking and/or useless people in a single lynch game is if there are better targets to lynch, but in a multi-lynch system this is not a problem, as you can lynch multiple players each day. A multi-lynch system doesn't make town unable to get rid of lurkers or useless players, unless you assume that town players are unable to convince other townies to lynch those that are unhelpful. And obviously if you apply this assumption the town can't win under any normal setup - town players need to be able to convince other townies to join on a lynch to succeed even under a single lynch system.
Or, perhaps your argument is that it is necessary for towns (in large games) to have vigilantes. Let's consider the specific benefits vigilantes bring to a town. In a normal single lynch game, the vigilante grants the town more killing power per day-night cycle, but the multi-lynch mechanic does the same thing. Another "benefit" that a vigilante provides to town is that it allows chosen lone town players to kill without having to convince other players to join in. This is only clearly beneficial if the player who happens to be granted the vigilante role possesses superior abilities in identifying scum and inferior abilities in persuading others to join a lynch. (This depends the luck of the draw.) Otherwise, it would be better for that player to attempt to convince the town to lynch the target in question, as it which also grants the town the voting history to examine later on. Yet another "benefit" of a vigilante role would be to allow a player to somehow confirm him or herself to the town. But this benefit isn't inherent to the vigilante role and also depends on what other roles are in the game, and whether or not the game setup is open.
So, while there may be valid criticisms against this game's setup (depending on one's point of view), the idea that the multi-lynch mechanic is unfavorable to town is so ridiculous to the point of hilarity. In actuality, it is such a town-favored mechanic that drastic measures must be taken to protect mafia from it.
On November 30 2011 21:04 Palmar wrote:
and yes, Greymist's role was bullshit, Mass-claiming should be a viable town strategy. It's retarded to have mechanics directly punishing it. It should be punished by mafia having good fake-claims.
Okay, here's a slightly more reasonable critique of the setup. Let me address it.
First of all, different setups emphasize and weaken various strategies. You're not seriously arguing that mass-claiming should be universally useful in all setups, are you? What about setups where everyone is vanilla?
Anyways, I did make it pretty obvious that this setup was designed not to promote claiming and mass claiming as a viable strategy. Even if you stubbornly hold onto the idea that mass claiming should be viable in every single setup, for most setups it should be reserved for endgame situations. In any case, it never makes sense to evaluate a role's abilities by itself in isolation, but instead to evaluate it in the context of the rest of the game. Like, the game's three strong protective roles? The ability to multi-lynch after a mass claim at LYLO?
Anyways, the only reason why GreYMisT's role did so much damage was that the town mass claimed, which was warned against, AND the town lynched all three of its protective roles. If the protective roles were alive, a substantial amount of damage would have been mitigated. If the town didn't claim in the first place, barely anything would have happened at all: The chances of GreYMisT scoring a hit without identifying someone broadcasting their role would have been incredibly low. In other words, the role is working precisely as intended, and town was given fair warning.
To be honest, where I expected criticism is the mafia magician's smoke bomb. A guaranteed lynch (or even multi-lynch) escape for the mafia in a game where town has no way to kill by lynching? But this was one of the abilities given to the mafia to counter the power of the multi-lynch.
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On December 01 2011 06:50 Palmar wrote:
But I do consider them outside factors. Everything that isn't direct posting by the players is.
Hmm, I don't wish to unnecessarily antagonize you further, but posts (and PMs) by game hosts are outside factors? How are we supposed to convey game-relevant information to players if these aren't even considered part of the game?
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Multi-lynch doesn't function the same way a vig does. In fact, it's much harder to get multi-lynch to work the way you want it to than a vig.
Lynch methods are highly manipulable by scum. No offense to the scumteam, but with this town if any of you actually played aggressive scum you would've managed to lynch 3-4 townies everyday and would've been able to win even faster.
Multilynch is good if the town is competent. A vig can compensate for chaos and stupid townies. Multilynch can't. In fact, the dumber the town, the more mafia-favored multilynch is.
EDIT: I would've loved this setup as scum.
However it would've felt unfair lol.
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@Zona
I might have complained about the smoke-bomb and possibly Coag's role in general if they didn't use it in a useless manner thanks to Coag's inactivity. He used 0 anonymous votes, and the smoke-bomb changed nothing on the day 2 lynch. The smoke-bomb was definitely an incredibly powerful tool for scum...they just didn't need it this time.
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On December 01 2011 12:29 wherebugsgo wrote:
Multilynch is good if the town is competent. A vig can compensate for chaos and stupid townies.
You missed something. A smart vig can compensate...
But if you have a game full of stupid townies like the scenario you describe, it's just as probable, if not moreso, that a stupid townie snags the vig role, and that helps how?
On December 01 2011 12:29 wherebugsgo wrote:
Multilynch can't. In fact, the dumber the town, the more mafia-favored multilynch is.
Indeed, you are correct. The dumber the town, the more mafia-favored ANY normal mechanic is. Unless you start adding retarded anti-snowball or similar mechanics.
Okay, you know what? I get it. I shouldn't host game setups which are designed for competent players here.
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EPT
