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Forum Index > TL Mafia
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 01 2011 15:30 GMT
#21
Assuming all your set ups have an equal probability, this doesn't seem too balanced. Mafia most likely need a roleblocker, and while role check is decent for figuring out who the next hit will be on, it still doesn't negate public claims. For example, if I am a sane cop, I know there is a 66% chance I can claim and be jailed or protected the following cycle, and there is literally nothing the mafia can do to stop it.
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 01 2011 21:37 GMT
#45
On November 02 2011 00:33 GMarshal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2011 00:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Assuming all your set ups have an equal probability, this doesn't seem too balanced. Mafia most likely need a roleblocker, and while role check is decent for figuring out who the next hit will be on, it still doesn't negate public claims. For example, if I am a sane cop, I know there is a 66% chance I can claim and be jailed or protected the following cycle, and there is literally nothing the mafia can do to stop it.

I think to remedy this the mafia rolecop should be a roleblocker.

Problem solved :-P

Problem is that imbalances the settings with a single jailor/cop/doctor. A normal F11 set up would probably be better unless Palmar really wants something wacky going on.
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 01 2011 21:49 GMT
#46
On November 02 2011 01:19 GMarshal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 02 2011 01:07 Palmar wrote:
On November 02 2011 00:55 GMarshal wrote:
On November 02 2011 00:46 Palmar wrote:
On November 02 2011 00:39 GMarshal wrote:
On November 02 2011 00:34 Palmar wrote:
On November 02 2011 00:33 GMarshal wrote:
On November 02 2011 00:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Assuming all your set ups have an equal probability, this doesn't seem too balanced. Mafia most likely need a roleblocker, and while role check is decent for figuring out who the next hit will be on, it still doesn't negate public claims. For example, if I am a sane cop, I know there is a 66% chance I can claim and be jailed or protected the following cycle, and there is literally nothing the mafia can do to stop it.

I think to remedy this the mafia rolecop should be a roleblocker.

Problem solved :-P


This creates some weird shit with roleblocker vs roleblocker mechanics, read the mafiascum wiki article.

I have, I don't see the issue they have with it though, scum roleblocker goes before jailor since the jailor is also a protection. Not really an issue, I mean I like the idea of a scum rolecop, but in a setup in which there is a potential for a medic/jailor or worse, both, the scumteam needs a way to suppress them. It also really gives an incentive to avoid claiming

Anyway, I've read 2 of 4 games and they never seemed to run into *too* much trouble, although I feel like they are too blue heavy


I'm sticking with the setup, but I love the discussion.

F11 is another similar setup, now TL is definitely not Mafiascum, I think the level of town play here is slightly higher and we know each other very well. But on the other hand, I think TL plays really bad Scum. I have no idea why, since I myself am really bad at scum, but it just seems to me that the general way of playing scum on TL is to sit back and pray town fucks up.

F11 had a win-rate of 40%-ish for town on mafiascum, so they went with 2of4 instead. I like the idea of the setup because it forces mafia to play a very analytical game (you can't just randomly roleblock until someone claims, you should be pro-active in looking for you target), and it might end up in mafia being forced to claim or counter-claim, which I find a fascinating area of the game we don't explore nearly often enough.

In any case, would you take the gamble as a sane cop? Now if you did a good job and found mafia night 1, I'd consider taking the risk day 2. But what if mafia has enough balls to just shoot you? It's a huge can of wifom.


What! You dare stick with a setup I don't entirely agree with! This means WAR!

Seriously though 2 of 4 seems to work, although you need to consider that mafiascum has pretty bad towns, for example the mountanous setup, witch is 10 town 2 scum has a 30% town win rate. I think that with two blues the scumteam is going to be fighting an uphill battle, but I'm in favor of any setup that keeps active players alive. I still dislike cops, so I would love to throw in a miller instead of one of the VTs, simply to give scum a chance to squirm out of a check. Ether that or maybe consider making one of the scum a framer in setups that have DTs.

Just random thoughts because I'm bored.


Those were exactly my thoughts, I did wonder when I first read the setup "isn't that really good for town?". And yes, Mafiascum towns are pretty bad. (In fact, TL towns are the only towns I've every seen that are relatively good).

And then there is the issue with those random-open setups, which is the difference in balance depending on mod-roll, F11 was even worse in that respect (VT game vs a cop/doc game are vastly different).

We might have to add a miller to the TL version of 2of4. I also had a crazy idea of simply not telling the mafia who their teammate is and giving the goon a gun. If the goon dies, the role cop gets a gun. For some reason TL seems to do okay as 3rd party and not scum. But I feel it's too themed (and similar to sleeper cell, which I hope will be hosted again in the future).

We also have the possibility of replacing the Cop out of the cop/doc combination with a parity cop, because really, a cop+jailkeeper is not OP, it's only cop+doc that breaks the game. with a parity cop it reduces their investigative power by at least one night. Only problem with this is that the parity cop immediately knows the setup.

Or we could just replace all town cops in the 2of4 with parity cops.


I dislike the idea of making the scumteam not know each other, too theme as you said, and it removes the communication/coordination advantage, which is what scumteams now days seem to be failing to exploit. I really like the idea of replacing the cops with parity cops, which weakens the cop somewhat, I also suggest you make him unable to check himself, just to make the role more interesting.

I'd still like to see a framer or miller but that's a personal preference, parity cop would work nicely too, and I'm not sure if both parity cop and miller together make the cop too weak of a role.

I think a miller would be a good way to give more leeway to the mafia in regards to claiming, counter claiming, and defending in a set up that can be so luck dependent on how the draw comes. The problem I see with that is if you have a miller + cop scenario it can screw the town even more since the miller would be more helpful with evening out the more imba settings like cop/medic, but would screw with the weaker town set ups more so making it less balanced overall.

It's interesting though, I found F11 to be pretty good and I don't see 40vs60 as that bad of a discrepancy. But I am always up for discussion on how to improve a set up.
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 02 2011 02:10 GMT
#77
Fuck it, /in
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 02 2011 15:08 GMT
#98
Me and Kurumi, Team Nipple.
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 02 2011 15:28 GMT
#101
On November 03 2011 00:26 GMarshal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2011 00:08 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Me and Kurumi, Team Nipple.

I can see you two are miking the whole naming your team thing for giggles

i c wat u did thar.
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 04 2011 13:14 GMT
#389
Sorry guys, I have been a bit busy. I have a class but will be home in a few hours and can post.
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 04 2011 13:18 GMT
#391
On November 03 2011 19:04 prplhz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2011 11:42 chaoser wrote:
I agree with you, once chaoser starts posting we'll have a better idea.


I didn't know you cared so much about what I have to say.

I'm in this game on more of an advisory capacity much like how some players/teams were like in RoL's team mini game (I also mainly advised that game).

Plans are useless this game. What's the point of a plan? Playing a dry cut and orderly game of mafia with analysis and logic should be enough. If you guys really are going to jump on a dude who posted a horrible plan outright and say he's mafia then I gotta shake my head at that. Mafia don't post a bad plan that's going to bring a lot of attention to them; mafia's not going to attention whore. Townies more often than not do that to either draw out mafia trying to seem "pro-town" (see wherebugsgo with his give me the ring plan in LoTR) or they're just really bad at making/thinking up plans lol. Mafia like to seem pro-town and post things that either agree with what everyone else is saying or lurks. Or they post genuinely good ideas that they feel don't really put them at a disadvantage. (sandroba in PYPI)


RebirthOfLegend's team mini game was an entirely different game where the setup itself made mentor/newbie teams. You lurked hardcore through that game and ended up getting lynched as DT, leading to a perfect mafia victory.

I don't get why you are trying to shut discussion down. Nobody is lynching hyshes yet, but his plan did look like it was conceived by a mafia mind. Then you bring out an explanation about why plans are usually posted in the thread, covering a lot of scenarios that clearly do not apply, and missing the scenario that did apply. hyshes didn't try to draw out mafia by intentionally posting a bad plan and I don't think that hyshes seems like he is bad at thinking up plans. hyshes made his post, knowing that the plan could not be implemented just to appear clever. Mafia will have an interest in appearing to be good or potentially good for town, without actually contributing. This is what hyshes did and this is a scenario that your sharp mind did not cover in your plan analysis for some reason.


Show nested quote +
On November 03 2011 12:00 chaoser wrote:
On November 03 2011 11:52 redFF wrote:
On November 03 2011 11:08 chaoser wrote:
On November 03 2011 09:56 supersoft wrote:
okay nothing interesting came up, yet. one thing i want to point out.
if you're town, save all your conversations with your teampartner. if you're getting lynched, these conversations may provide something that speaks in favor of you.
I know scum will do that, too now... BUT it's a lot of work to fake logs. and why should we be gentle with these guys?!


Yeah I'm going to have to disagree with that. This isn't post-conversation-to-try-to-make-people-trust-you. This is mafia. Let's try NOT using shit like this to "confirm" one another. I thought we already covered this topic in PYPI

NICE TRY SCUM WHO DOESN'T WANNA DO EXTRA WORK


I really hope you're kidding about this. I'm 100% serious about my point. Are we really going to try to exploit every single mechanic in place in a game to try to avoid the actual point of a mafia game which is to analyze and use scum hunting skills? Not to mention this doesn't even work. Look at Kita escaping lynch for a hilarious amount of days because of his "PM convo" with Radfield. It took me two days of setup to finally convince people that he was mafia and should be voted for.


Coming back to RebirthOfLegend's team mini game, in that game you were DT and you checked inactives, because then scum would be forced to be active and active scum is scum that cannot hide. I see your concerns about people trying to confirm themselves 100% by just posting a falsifiable quicktopic. But this is more activity that mafia will have to do, and this will give town more content to analyse and bigger chance for scum to do something unfortunate. I see your concerns about using mechanics instead of analysis, this is not how it should be done, but forcing scum to do extra work and increasing their chances of slipping, I think that's something chaoser from RebirthOfLegend's team mini game would have liked?

You still think that checking inactives is the best way to play as a DT? There's not going to be many inactives in this game I think, even though some teams have been weirdly silent, so should DT try to confirm some of the more active analyzers?

This is wrong. Checking inactives, or even less active players is the best way to play DT. Analysis will out any moderately active players/teams, lurkers are annoying. It's tough as a DT, but you have to check inactives and not the people you "suspect" because at the end of the day if you are at lylo with 2 moderately inactive teams/players and have barely anything to read on both of them that's a bad situation.
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 04 2011 13:20 GMT
#392
Sorry for triple post, but I am groggy and forgo to mention that the "In this game I doubt anyone will be inactive" argument is always brought up to counter the check inactives plan, and it is always wrong.
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 04 2011 17:41 GMT
#494
Alright, well I just got back from school and haven't read shit all so it might take me a little while to catch up. Until then if there is anything important I should know, feel free to reply. It shouldn't take me more than an hour or two to catch up depending on the spam content.
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 06 2011 10:09 GMT
#700
I just skimmed the last page, I am sorry about my inactivity, I will be able to contribute tomorrow at around 4-5pm because that's when I get out of work. I keep getting sidelined by real life stuff lately, once again my apologies. I ask that you guys don't jump the gun on anything relating to me until I have the opportunity to help out tomorrow. Give me the chance to contribute and if you still feel the need to kill me then by all means do it, but let me nab you some scum first.
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 06 2011 14:46 GMT
#705
On November 06 2011 22:23 deconduo wrote:
I said to myself before the day flip that if Chezinu or Liquid weren't killed, then there's a massive chance Chezinu is mafia. There was no reason not to try and kill off Radfield at the first opportunity. Saying 'there was only 1KP' means nothing, when you look at the alternative hits. No point killing me + Sandro as we barely avoided a lynch. No point killing bum+iGrok as they weren't really doing anything. Radfield is the best scumhunter in the game and WBG has been super active. I would be very surprised if they weren't scum.

Your logic is weird. I think almost every team has a worthwhile player. I know how deadly sandroba is when he isn't drunk, I know how good I am when I actually put in the D2 effort. Gmarshal is a scary force to reckon with as mafia, and on reputation alone chaoser is also a great hit.
That's 4 different teams right there, and I don't even remember who their partners were.
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 07 2011 11:17 GMT
#761
On November 07 2011 12:49 Kavdragon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2011 11:42 kitaman27 wrote:
GM is too busy with his pony colt.


Corrected.

The greatest typo of all time, or most clever pun of all time?
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 07 2011 13:15 GMT
#766
On November 07 2011 21:09 deconduo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 07 2011 20:17 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
On November 07 2011 12:49 Kavdragon wrote:
On November 07 2011 11:42 kitaman27 wrote:
GM is too busy with his pony colt.


Corrected.

The greatest typo of all time, or most clever pun of all time?


If you are town, the fact that you can come into the thread and make comments like this yet even one relevent post is beyond you make me sad. There's a pretty good chance of you getting lynched and I would much prefer if you came back to make some sort of a fight.

Team Chezinu has to die today, if they don't this game is lost. The AFKers are too willing to sheep WBG because its easy to agree with someone who makes long posts if you don't actually read them and realise how repetitve and meaningless they are.

I just got to my internship, saw that on my way out of my house. I was going to catch up now. Maybe I shouldn't of made the comment, but it entertained me.
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 09 2011 23:50 GMT
#1491
On November 10 2011 08:24 Palmar wrote:
yes, that was my initial reason for nerfing cop -> parity cop

I am more than willing to change the 2of4 if we intend to use it again on TL. It's not about me defending the setup, it's me having a problem with people who blame the game (lol @ fucking zerg whiners on TL) instead of blaming themselves, even if the odds are slightly against them, that's what I consider a challenge.

Can someone suggest a modification to the 2of4 setup that would make it more balanced.

I ran this version on another site:

1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Cop, Doctor.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Cop, Veteran.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Vigilante, Veteran.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Vigilante, Doctor.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Vigilante, Cop.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 5 Vanilla Townies, Doctor, Veteran.

It replaces rolecop with roleblocker, and removes jailor/vanilla and adds vigilante and veteran

Removing the set up that this game specifically had would balance it. That was incredibly town favored.
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 10 2011 01:59 GMT
#1544
On November 10 2011 09:10 GreYMisT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2011 09:09 Ace wrote:
On November 10 2011 09:05 kitaman27 wrote:
On November 10 2011 09:02 Ace wrote: He can play this card from both alignments, hence you can't even take his excuse of doing it to WIFOM the Mafia seriously. The Town would have lost but it was the correct play.


If it could have come from both alignments, you discard the information and base the lynch on the other 70 pages. Carrying out a policy lynch just for the sake of policy doesn't make sense.




This isn't a policy lynch. It is a LYLO and someone has been found to be lying about a Role claim. You can't tell if he is Town or Scum because his alibi is acceptable for both alignments so you can't take it at face value. What you do know is that he claimed a role, and the actual REAL role died.

What happened in the other 70 pages that can overturn this scenario?


Regardless, its a good thing we didnt kill him, lol

This statement means you completely missed the point of everything Ace said.
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 10 2011 02:10 GMT
#1549
On November 10 2011 09:38 kitaman27 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2011 09:14 Ace wrote:
You're in LYLO. Someone claims medic. The real medic dies. He has an alibi that can't help you determine his alignment. Why are you taking anything he says as true at this point for sure?


We weren't . GM wasn't "confirmed" town or anything. We had a parity check on bugs vs super and chose to lynch bugs. GM's opinion wasn't taken as law.

Show nested quote +
On November 10 2011 09:14 Ace wrote:
if a Scum GM makes this claim, this is the sticking point. You realize that a Scum GM wins the game for the Scum team if this claim goes through.


I disagree. Suppose GM is scum and claims medic. There are two possibilities:
1) There is a real medic, who is not shot night two. We get back our parity result between bugs and super and still lynch bugs. As the real medic is still alive, that allows us to pull of a second parity check, ending the game.
2) There is a real medic, who is shot night two. We get back our parity result between bugs and super and still lynch bugs. The game comes down to a 2v1 and you go from there.

Show nested quote +
On November 10 2011 09:14 Ace wrote:
This is the kind of shit play that has led people to stop playing here and you can't even recognize it. In a Town favored setup a PC claims Day 1, The Town mislynches twice, A town player lies about his role and yet you still think that was a good play going into LYLO.

You're right, you know better than me. I'm not even going to discuss this anymore


No need to become upset. I'm the first to admit that we played poorly on day one forcing a claim. I'm not trying to spin two mislynches as great town play. I agree this was certainly a town favorable setup. I think not lynching GM was a good play going into LYLO because he wasn't scum. That's all.

This is so backwards and once again, you guys miss the point. Just because the outcome worked doesn't mean your logic or reasoning was right.

To put this in perspective, if I proceeded to lie through the ENTIRE game, blatantly push miss lynches and shout scum at every turn, use a fakeclaim, but somehow ended up being a townie. That doesn't mean it was a good decision not to lynch me just because it turned out being right.

A conclusion can't retroactively justify your premise. If I walk out into the middle of a street and start shooting off with a gun because I am bored as fuck one Saturday night and one of my bullets strikes a guy who was in the middle of raping the shit out of a prostitute does that somehow justify me shooting a gun in the middle of a street just because it somehow ended up working out? No, it doesn't and if you guys continue construing dumb luck with good play just because the outcome somehow ended up favorable with a dumb shit decision you aren't going to learn anything.
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 10 2011 02:14 GMT
#1551
On November 10 2011 11:02 GreYMisT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2011 10:59 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
On November 10 2011 09:10 GreYMisT wrote:
On November 10 2011 09:09 Ace wrote:
On November 10 2011 09:05 kitaman27 wrote:
On November 10 2011 09:02 Ace wrote: He can play this card from both alignments, hence you can't even take his excuse of doing it to WIFOM the Mafia seriously. The Town would have lost but it was the correct play.


If it could have come from both alignments, you discard the information and base the lynch on the other 70 pages. Carrying out a policy lynch just for the sake of policy doesn't make sense.




This isn't a policy lynch. It is a LYLO and someone has been found to be lying about a Role claim. You can't tell if he is Town or Scum because his alibi is acceptable for both alignments so you can't take it at face value. What you do know is that he claimed a role, and the actual REAL role died.

What happened in the other 70 pages that can overturn this scenario?


Regardless, its a good thing we didnt kill him, lol

This statement means you completely missed the point of everything Ace said.


No i understand, He is saying that a smart town would have killed GMarshal because his plan was chaotic and very indicative of scum play, and we didnt do it because we were dumb.

I'm saying its a good thing we were dumb, or we would have lost

It's lucky, not good. That's the mistake you are making. It's like saying if Option A is correct 90% of the time, but you guys chose option B, which is only right 10% of the time and somehow B ends up being right it doesn't mean that B is a good decision just because is somehow worked out.

That's basically the idea behind LAL and why dumb luck =/= goo
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 10 2011 02:14 GMT
#1552
On November 10 2011 11:02 GreYMisT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2011 10:59 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
On November 10 2011 09:10 GreYMisT wrote:
On November 10 2011 09:09 Ace wrote:
On November 10 2011 09:05 kitaman27 wrote:
On November 10 2011 09:02 Ace wrote: He can play this card from both alignments, hence you can't even take his excuse of doing it to WIFOM the Mafia seriously. The Town would have lost but it was the correct play.


If it could have come from both alignments, you discard the information and base the lynch on the other 70 pages. Carrying out a policy lynch just for the sake of policy doesn't make sense.




This isn't a policy lynch. It is a LYLO and someone has been found to be lying about a Role claim. You can't tell if he is Town or Scum because his alibi is acceptable for both alignments so you can't take it at face value. What you do know is that he claimed a role, and the actual REAL role died.

What happened in the other 70 pages that can overturn this scenario?


Regardless, its a good thing we didnt kill him, lol

This statement means you completely missed the point of everything Ace said.


No i understand, He is saying that a smart town would have killed GMarshal because his plan was chaotic and very indicative of scum play, and we didnt do it because we were dumb.

I'm saying its a good thing we were dumb, or we would have lost

It's lucky, not good. That's the mistake you are making. It's like saying if Option A is correct 90% of the time, but you guys chose option B, which is only right 10% of the time and somehow B ends up being right it doesn't mean that B is a good decision just because is somehow worked out.

That's basically the idea behind LAL and why dumb luck =/= good play.
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RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
November 10 2011 05:26 GMT
#1618
On November 10 2011 13:41 chaoser wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 10 2011 13:31 redFF wrote:
so we won because we are terrible? yay?


SC analogy? You're D- rank and you just won by going deep six off no scouting. Ace is Bisu.

I'd say its more akin to hardcore metagaming and STOVING a T, only to realize hes a retarded D- and opened marine med/turret.
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