EPT/in
Need to get in here before the onrush comes. :p
Will read once I get home, and will make special time for this game. (I played in the last PYP and it was very fun.)
Pick Your Power Interesting!
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
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Mr. Wiggles
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/in Need to get in here before the onrush comes. :p Will read once I get home, and will make special time for this game. (I played in the last PYP and it was very fun.) | ||
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Do town bodyguards protect Scum mayors? It's a little ambiguous, as it says that they only protect as the same house, when substituted. Does the non-protection only apply to BGs of other houses? If a person with a role becomes a bodyguard, what do they show up as to role-checks? Is it a combination of two roles, or does bodyguard supersede? Bodyguard is written in blue, are they immune to alignment checks like the mayor, or is that just convention? Thanks | ||
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On September 29 2011 12:44 Kavdragon wrote: You're supposed to wait till someone fake claims DT and says they checked a BG. Then you ask the mod if the naming format is correct, and lynch the mafia member when it turns out it came up wrong. Stop asking questions that will make it easier for Mafia to hide. Also, since i can't vote for you till I'm in, /in. Wiggles wants to roll scum. Lynch him pre-game. I know who I'm lynching Day 1. :p | ||
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On September 30 2011 14:07 Foolishness wrote: meapak wanted me to tell you that he is /in ! Did he get banned? I can't seem to find where. | ||
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(Start before midterms, I hope, stop outing <3) EDIT: For emphasis Stop. Outing. Or I will find you and solve your problems so you can play. | ||
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xdrk5.png) The only way to fix this problem is to get more people in, and fast! If we don't, bad things will happen! | ||
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http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=272941 | ||
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(Also because I need to play the game, and can't do that without posting.  ) | ||
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On October 12 2011 12:28 JimboSilvers wrote: Since it is going to come up, I'll say this now. Almost half the player-base is Mafia. This makes denying powerful mafia roles nearly impossible, and not cost effective. The best course for the role picking phase will be for us to focus on getting good town roles, and letting the various mafia parties fight among themselves for the good mafia roles. (Denying each other good combos in the process) On that note, I want to know if you guys think it's a good idea to make a coordinated list of powerful town roles, or a bad idea. The obvious upside is that if we coordinate our picks then we have a higher chance of getting more roles, but at the cost of letting every mafia knowing the general location of certain power roles. I for one am against this sort of ordering. It's called Pick YOUR power, Not Pick THEIR Power. I'll pick my own role, thank you. I thought about this, but what do you think is the possibility of mafia picking traditionally pro-town roles like DTs and Cops in order to hunt for the other scum teams? I feel we're going to have to be very careful of attributing pro-towness to role, and avoiding the "confirmed town" mentality for DTs, even if they deliver a red to us. It will be more like they aren't part of that mafia family, more than that they become likely town. That said, they'd still be useful, because they aren't going to hide red checks on the enemy families, and they're forced to confirm town, or lie about their own members, neither of which helps them in the long run. So, I think a list of good town roles will be ok, so long as people are careful not to fall into the trap of role = alignment. We should also try to take roles that are good in mafia or town hands, if possible. | ||
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Too bad watcher doesn't work like normal. I just thought that we could assign inventor, and then have a watcher on him every single night. That would ward off hits and stop role-thiefs. If the inventor ever claimed to have his role stolen, or died, then the watcher would have a short-list for the culprit. Too bad it's only number, and not identity. No back-fires that medics don't have as well, either.I'm getting what Jimbo is saying and where he's coming from, but I think I'm leaning towards Radfield's plan. The only drawback for that, is if a townie is dumb and doesn't pick what he's supposed to, because then we run into problems for if a mafia grabs their role lower down the list. A good thing, would be to probably just assign the inventor, then maybe the role-stealing roles, like Radfield is saying. This lets us keep roles where they should be, and only lets mafia kill or RB inventor, not steal it. Then the rest of town just focus on picking pro-town roles, and we can perhaps make a tier-list to avoid overlap. Have we explored the possibility of using PMs to help with role-picking at all? I think there might be a way they could be utilized, but can't come up with a plan to use them off the top of my head. | ||
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On October 13 2011 06:05 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Unless an invention could buff the watchers power? Inventions can only be used once, so it wouldn't work, and it doesn't do anything to help on the first night, which is likely when mafia will strike. | ||
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On October 13 2011 06:17 kitaman27 wrote: I like that idea, although it gives an incredible amount of power to a single player and prevents anybody from role checking him. On October 03 2011 14:51 Protactinium wrote: Role Changelog: Elected officials no longer are immune to role checks. We're good, there. Also, it's not as bad as normal if red's elected, because his first lynch has the possibility of hitting other mafia, and he doesn't represent all of the mafia. The only problem, is cover roles. | ||
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On October 13 2011 14:00 GreYMisT wrote: After we all recieve our roles, should those who became vanilla townies reveal themselves and their picks? we would know for sure some roles would be in the game, but we once again would get the problem that everyone would know the general area that that role exists. I personally feel that it is worth the risk. We get to know for certain what roles are in the game, and can plan accordingly. I say it depends on the role. If some townie decided he wants to "deny" mafia a role, then he can claim that he did so, and didn't get the role. (Thief, Role Swapper, CPR docs, GFs, Framer, etc.) Then we can have a DT check the claimer, and we know that there may be one of that role in the list above the person. As for other roles, I don't really see the benefit. Why reveal if say, a DT was chosen above you. It doesn't really do anything to help town, and lets everyone with a KP know the general area of an investigative role. So, I guess you could say it depends on your queue position as well, as the lower you are, the weaker your information becomes. For example, claiming inventor taken when you're 2nd in queue is different than claiming DT taken when you're 19th. | ||
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Would people agree to getting DTs to focus checks into the list of candidates to dissuade multiple mafia from running in the election with multiple members? It won't stop them all, but it might keep every scum team from getting 2+ members to run, haha. In any case, people running for mayor should be scrutinized heavily. | ||
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He's either VT, so nothing lost, or he's framer, in which case we remove it. Depends what else people think banning can be used for. | ||
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My Candidacy. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0apXy.png) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tZ4Oc.png) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/I9fe7.png) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yIUv3.png) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MsX7g.png) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/O9vH4.png) That is All. + Show Spoiler + P.S., this game took too long to start. :p | ||
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On October 14 2011 12:53 hiro protagonist wrote: I would like to nominate the 3 most active and protown people as of right now, and that would be: Sandroba Jumbo Radfield All three put a lot of effort into organizing town so far. By putting them in public office, We pressure them to keep up there performance. Of the three, I like Sand and Rad the most, Jumbo the least. chaoser or wiggles dont have a platform, so i see no reason to elect them. They could change my mind, if they give me a reason to. What's wrong with a platform of killing scum? =O I'm not voting anyone for stuff they did on day 1 really, besides maybe activity. It's pretty easy for people to talk a lot on Day 1 about mechanics and role picking, because it doesn't really reflect any opinion on any other player. Especially in a game with 3 scum families, I'm sure they came up with different picking plans, some of which could potentially fall in line with what town believed to be optimal. This further obfuscates things, because even plans that look pro-town have the potential to be used to help one scum family's strategy to the detriment of the other two. If any of those three want my vote for today, then they're going to have to provide reasons for today. Why should I give someone immunity? If they get pardoner, how will they use it? Who will be their day 1 lynch? To answer these questions myself, I haven't decided who I'm going to lynch if I get voted into office. Not yet, anyways. I'll be willing to take town input, but that will be more of a discussion between me and the rest of town. It's not going to be a vote. It's not going to just be me picking someone. It's going to be me discussing with town, and then we can come up with a candidate we can mostly agree on. Some criteria we may wish to consider or omit in this picking process is activity and queue position. i.e., is it worth it to lynch an active player day 1, or one of the many lurkers? Should we avoid lynching into the top of the list? If I receive the spot of pardoner, I probably won't use my pardons ever, unless there's something silly like a vote rig or scum politician swinging the vote. It would only be used in a reactionary measure, unless town decides it would be beneficial to use is as a no-lynch. (I think there's scenarios near lylo where this is beneficial. I might need to read up) I want immunity, because I don't feel like getting shot on night 1 again. As well, when I'm bullet-proof I go on a scum killing rampage across the thread. Also, I made you a graphic novel. That took a lot of effort. | ||
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If you're scum, then yes, that is true. Otherwise, I won't kick you. Unless doing so would get your vote, then I would. | ||
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On October 14 2011 14:21 syllogism wrote: Platforms are irrelevant. Plans are irrelevant. What you say you are going to do with the lynch or pardons is irrelevant. All that matters is denying the positions from scum. Vote dumb pardoner who will pardon twice and wreck the game for town versus vote in smart pardoner who won't pardon unless absolutely necessary. Vote in smart mayor who'll use the lynch in a good way versus voting in a dumb mayor who's going to randomly lynch a pro-town player within the top queue spots because he feels like it. Which seems like a better alternative in each case? Also, how are you going to determine who's scum or not without discussing anything? | ||
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(Open the nested Quotes) On October 14 2011 15:14 syllogism wrote: Discussion is good, but in the end platforms are pure fluff, especially in a game with 3 different scum teams. Walls of text detailing your plans and policies say quite little about your alignment, especially if the person in question is someone like Radfield. Furthermore, promises are meaningless if the person being elected isn't town.. Obviously we are never going to elect a "dumb" pardoner or mayor, given the fact how many solid players there are in the game. Anyway, Mig is likely town and everyone should be voting for him. Yes, take my word for it On October 14 2011 22:04 syllogism wrote: Only sandroba has been talking about 99% probability, so you are twisting our words for your own benefit. I've also not said anything about Sandroba's alignment. Also it's interesting that you made those conclusions without actually being in contact with me in any way (you did add me on skype and admittedly our time zones aren't compatible; PMs are however an option). I'm not running for mayor, though I certainly would push for my election as well if I could do it at this juncture but the votes aren't there. Thus I'm doing the next best thing; attempting to elect someone who I've the strongest town read of. I think he has a better chance at getting elected, which is mostly why I'm not running myself. Can you please elaborate on what you think our alignments are? Do you think me and mig are scum buddies and just being extremely daring? You did mention that you think one or both of us is scum and trying to "to ride the coattails of the strong pro-town player into Office". Who is the strong pro-town player then and which one is latching onto him? Mig didn't even want to run and I pushed him into it. You aren't very consistent and coherent with your accusations, which is quite scummy. I just thought of this now, and didn't notice it before. The bolded parts seem to contradict each other. You say that "All that matters is denying the positions from scum.", so you support Mig in a campaign that he hadn't even announced yet, and don't run for mayor yourself, because "the votes aren't there". How do you know the votes aren't there, without trying to run? Right now, there's no votes for anybody, really, so that implies that it's very hard to know whether you'll get enough votes to be elected, unless you're some kind of psychic. So, there's a break-down in the logic. You say the biggest criteria for elections is that the player is town. In mafia, you can only be sure of your own alignment. So, instead of running for mayor/pardoner yourself in order to secure the position for a known town player, you put up Mig as a candidate instead, who you say you believe to be town. But in doing this, you contradict yourself. There's no way to be able to tell that he's town better than your knowledge of your own alignment, so obviously he isn't more likely to be town than yourself. Then, you say you didn't run yourself because the votes aren't there, when the votes aren't there for anybody right now, and there's no way to tell if they would be without trying. Then add on to it, that you admitted in PM that you didn't even talk to Mig about the game much, but somehow determined his alignment to the extent that you'd be willing to put him in office over yourself. Your behaviour doesn't make sense from a town perspective, so either there's something fishy going on that we don't know about, or you're scum. At this point, I feel uncomfortable voting any of Mig/Syllo/San into office. They're too interconnected, and taken together, their stories don't really add up right to me. | ||
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On October 15 2011 04:53 syllogism wrote: This "if you are town, you must be running for mayor since you can only know your own alignment" is such an hilariously flawed logic. The only way to elect someone is to get more than 1 vote and that supposedly requires townies voting for townies or we are guaranteed to end up with a scum mayor. Absurdly bad Nice way to avoid the questions. Why vote for mig, based on his towniness, when you didn't even talk to him about the game, and then declare the only reason you aren't running yourself, is because you don't think you'd get the votes, when you never even tried to run yourself, and when mig wasn't even running, and had no votes either. Why do you trust him, more than yourself? Now that's absurdly bad. | ||
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On October 15 2011 04:59 syllogism wrote: I never said I didn't talk to him about the game, you are imagining things. Mig said we talked a lot non-game related things, but that's about it. It's you who is dodging. Explain how a townie gets elected without other townies voting for him and thus at least to a degree trusting him. Where does that come in? Of course, you need other people to vote for you, but mig wasn't even running at that point. You claim that there wouldn't be votes for you, without even trying to secure votes. You said that the only real criteria for voting someone in is that they are town. So, you and mig were on an equal playing field as far as elections go, but instead of nominating yourself, a known quantity, you nominate mig, who you do not know the alignment of. That doesn't make sense. Maybe if he started a campaign, and already had momentum, I could understand you supporting him and not running if you got a town-vibe, but coming from someone who only wants the elected officials to be town, it seems incredibly odd that they would nominate someone else and not run themselves at that point, especially when a bs reason is given later as well. Then add onto that you pressured mig into running, and that you refuse to share the skype convos that convinced you so much of his towniness, and I get a rather bad feeling. I'm pretty convinced you have ulterior motives behind setting up mig as mayor. | ||
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On October 15 2011 05:14 Erandorr wrote: Hey Wiggles, I have a question. What do you think about Mig as candidate, ignoring what you think about syllo? He hasn't given me a reason to vote for him. He didn't do anything Day 0 (Not that it counts for much anyways), and then made a mayoral campaign only after being pressured to do so, where he re-hashes a lot of ideas that have already been expressed with little new content, and explains how he's townie because syllo says so, and that he's bad scum so we shouldn't worry anyways. His next post is defending drop_bear who made a null-tell. Could be a townie trap, could actually be mafia fishing for people. That's why I don't like when people do that. He hasn't contributed enough, or talked about the game in a substantial enough way yet for me to want to vote for him. Also, it's a bad idea to look at him in a vacuum anyways, because the game doesn't happen in a vacuum. Especially when he was pressured to run. | ||
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On October 15 2011 05:16 syllogism wrote: You are back to saying that every single townie should run for mayor I'm saying that from the reasons you gave and the situation at the time, there's no reason you should have pressured mig to run for mayor instead of running yourself. You're either not telling us everything, lying, or you have different motivations for your actions than you claim. You still haven't defended your reasons for putting mig up instead of yourself. I said I'd discuss with town, what do they think of syllo being a lynch candidate? | ||
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On October 15 2011 05:47 Cyber_Cheese wrote: At this point in time, my top three likely votes are for wiggles/radfield/jimbo. If you were on that list, please publicly state two things for me. The first being who you would lynch right now and why, and the second is if you could choose mayor and pardoner now, excluding yourself, who would they be and why? If I had to lynch right now, it would probably be Syllo. I'm getting a pretty bad vibe from him from his responses to what I was asking, and from the whole mayoral nomination in general. Like I said, I feel he has an ulterior motive for his actions, whether it's because mig is his scum-buddy, or because he thinks he can manipulate mig if he became mayor/pardoner, but between Sandro/Mig/Syllo, I feel there's at least one scum trying to be manipulative, and in my mind Syllo is the most likely candidate at this time. I might change my opinion in the future, as new information comes up, but if I had to lynch right now, it would be him. If I could choose mayor/pardoner right now, it would be one of Jimbo/Radfield for the one position, and then someone else, I'm not sure who exactly for the other. Radfield and Jimbo, I chose, as they both seem capable, nominated themselves to the election, are active, and seem like decent scum-hunters. (Jimbo likes theory and guides, which implies he's at least experienced). I'd probably end up choosing Radfield, due to his lower queue position, and also because I get the feeling Jimbo is a riskier or more aggressive player from his posts. As well, I'd be able to get better reads on Radfield in subsequent days, as I have a better feel for his play. So, Radfield would be the pardoner. This is because I don't know who I'd put in the second position, and pardoner is more dangerous. For mayor, I'd pick maybe Chaoser if he picked up his activity, or Scamp, if he did the same and nominated himself. They're both level-headed players, who I feel wouldn't do anything too crazy with the lynch, and who could use the protection to scum-hunt effectively. Really, there isn't really an ideal mayoral candidate at the moment in my mind, but if I had to choose, it would be one of those two. There's a general lack of thread activity and discussion, which I feel is really hurting the elections. There's probably more going on in private, but I feel the thread serves us better, because we can actually argue as an entire town here, and not just a few people convincing others in private, where there's less repercussions to what they say. On October 15 2011 07:15 Mig wrote: WBG I have been asleep not "noticeably absent" not even I am around 24h a day. Addressing a few points brought up 1) I never said people should not analyze, don't be dense. I said you should spend more time analyzing other townies I even gave a brief idea of the types of things people should be looking for instead of using traditional scum hunting as their basis for determining someone's townieness. And I will do plenty of scum hunting, I will put my track record of scum hunting up against almost anyone's. No one should have any concerns about that. 2) My day 0 posting has been bashed a little bit. Take a second and actually look at my day 0 posting. I did not post 5000 times about plans that everyone has agreed now are pretty much null tells. However, I did support kita's idea of turning Ace into a vigi that could only shoot mafia and I brought up the point that JOAT should not be delegated because it is the easiest role for mafia to drop to their teammates. Neither of these are major points but they both ONLY help town and harm mafia. I am not trying to put on some act to appear pro town I posted when I saw something that could be guaranteed to directly help the town and not mafia. Outside of that I have already talked extensively to at least half the town on irc/skype/etc. And I will talk to anyone who wants to talk to me. If you have your doubts about me being town then message me on skype/irc/aim/etc. I will discuss ideas and give my opinions to anyone. If you don't want to take syllo or sandroba's word that I am likely town that's fine. Message me yourself and we can discuss any concerns you have. Why not discuss things in the thread? I actually think that even though this is a PM game, thread discussion is more important than normal. This will help stop the different mafia families from being able to plan and manipulate in the background, if we force more information into the public thread. They won't be able to hide as effectively by only really interacting with a few players. Unless everyone's dumping their PM and IRC logs, we also don't really have a way to tell if anyone's contradicting themselves or not taking a hard stance on something. I think that major things should be posted in the thread, and not kept solely to PMs. This also helps for analysis, as it disseminates more information to town, which lets us analyze better, and less information dies with a player. (This is directed at everyone, not just mig) | ||
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Mafia Hero, Mafia Vet, can both survive lynches. Voting one of those into pardoner is very bad, as it means that if they abuse their powers, we waste 3-4 days trying to get rid of them, as we can't NK them nor lynch them. At pick 3, it is very possible Jimbo could have taken one of those two roles, thus the trepidation when considering his queue placement. @Jimbo: Are you still running for mayor/pardoner? You're talking about your reads/posting analysis on Radfield and Sandro, and Mig but you haven't really mentioned if you still consider yourself to be running. | ||
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On October 16 2011 07:49 Arctocod wrote: this game sucks I don't really care what you do anymore. People are apparently more interested in trolling than actually playing the game. Someone can shoot me so I can be confirmed town, and then you can know at least both syllogism and supersoft lied about their roleclaims. Unless you mean you're going to die and flip town, shooting you doesn't confirm you. Also, would you care expanding on "both syllogism and supersoft lied about their roleclaims."? Do you mean they lied to you in a scum way, or just lied to you and you're mad that they lied? | ||
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(Not connected to the post above) | ||
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On October 17 2011 08:52 wherebugsgo wrote: yes, I should be checked, when I called on Radfield to lynch node. Are you retarded? How's that relevant? | ||
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Are you a sheep!?!?! | ||
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On October 18 2011 04:34 sinani206 wrote: Hi guys. Apparently I'm bad at remembering to tell hosts that I'm going on vacation. (Sorry) Anyway I'm back now, so I'm going to play. I claimed to arctocod and I'm mostly caught up, I believe. On the subject of who to lynch today, I think our best choice right now is probably Meapack_Ziphh based on the last few pages. ##Vote Meapak_Ziphh Why did you claim? | ||
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On October 18 2011 10:25 Jackal58 wrote: Because a role swapper died. What would you claim as scum if you took NRA first? One of the top 5 have it and are on the same team as him. That doesn't make sense with the role-swapper because Ken claimed to have his role stolen and have role swapper now. So, role-swapper didn't visit NRA, it got killed some other way. Anyways, back to studying. | ||
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I haven't done too much real analysis today, but I've shared some of my reads with a least one person (Who might have shared them all with others, I don't know). Physics midterms suck. I slept two hours last night. If you really want to talk to me, send me a PM. | ||
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Thanks. | ||
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Someone's been impersonating me on IRC... -_- I never had that conversation with you, meapak, lol. No wonder people think I'm scummy, hahahahahahahaha. | ||
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I went on IRC once, talked in the main part, and then WBG asked me a question and never adequately responded, and I made fun of a spectator because he was a visible observer. For reference, I saved my logs: + Show Spoiler + [Discussion for PickYourPowerInteresting] [16:44] <@chaosers> you got bad luck jackal [16:44] <@derpladee> but that was also ages ago i assume [16:44] <Jackal58> So sorry I'm not a fan of plans at this point [16:44] <@derpladee> maybe we've all learned something [16:44] <Jackal58> Somebody will fuck it all up [16:45] <Jackal58> Ya right [16:45] <@jimbosilvers> Jackal: The plan wasn't nearly as stupid as your lynch. Don't just blame the town. [16:45] <@derpladee> how about revising our plans once we know who gets 1st pick etc [16:45] <@jimbosilvers> NO [16:45] <@derpladee> if they're trustworthy then we can go ahead with it [16:45] <@kitaman27> My plan is to lynch jackal if he refuses to follow a plan [16:45] <@hiro_pro> lol [16:45] <@MrWiggles> How do you tell if someone's trusworthy this early, haha? [16:45] <@derpladee> my plan is to lynch people who lynch people who aren't scum [16:45] <@derpladee> well jack isn't [16:45] <@jimbosilvers> Revising picking plans after you draft is a really bad idea. [16:45] <Jackal58> I'm taking day vig and blowing away kita.. [16:45] <@MrWiggles> mhmm [16:46] <@MrWiggles> let's switch 2nd and 3rd roles, so my buddy gets the better one! [16:46] <@jimbosilvers> Because it's super suspetable to meddleing, and the only people who can effectivly meddle, are mafia. [16:46] <@chaosers> no changing the plan [16:46] <@derpladee> but kinda, top3 after draft decide if the plan will go through [16:46] <@chaosers> affter draft is revealed [16:46] <@derpladee> but you're talking about "we can't change a plan that noone will follow" [16:46] <@derpladee> that makes no sense [16:46] <@MrWiggles> huh? [16:46] <@chaosers> go read previous PYP games please [16:46] <Jackal58> The problem is the people that say fuck the plan and pick what they want [16:47] <@MrWiggles> No plans after draft is released, only guidelines [16:47] <@chaosers> yeah [16:47] <@chaosers> we're jsut saying top three [16:47] <@chaosers> pick this shit [16:47] <@MrWiggles> and even those are kind've sketchy if they get too specific [16:47] <@chaosers> why would people say fuck that shit? [16:47] <@hiro_pro> yeah, ther good roles [16:47] <Jackal58> I can get behind 2 or 3 roles taken first [16:47] <@derpladee> because they're the goddamn batman [16:47] <Jackal58> After that It's not a plan [16:48] <@chaosers> yeah [16:48] <@hiro_pro> cool [16:48] <@MrWiggles> inb4 town ackbar :p [16:48] <@chaosers> i'm ok with 3 top draft people [16:48] <@MrWiggles> as first pick [16:48] <@chaosers> picking specific roles [16:48] <Jackal58> which roles? [16:48] <Jackal58> inventor? assasin? [16:48] <@MrWiggles> Inventor/Thief/Swapper, people are saying? [16:49] <@MrWiggles> and then maybe assassin [16:49] <@MrWiggles> those 4 seem to be the focus [16:49] <@hiro_pro> swaper is the same as framer right? [16:49] <@MrWiggles> forgot framer -_- [16:49] <@derpladee> btw, since mayer election is before anything and mayor has to pick a lynch target [16:49] <@derpladee> how does that work? [16:49] <Jackal58> Scum need to be denied assassin [16:49] <@MrWiggles> swapper is like theif, but re-usable [16:49] <@MrWiggles> mayor is day 2 [16:49] <@MrWiggles> day 1* [16:49] <@hiro_pro> oh, kk [16:49] <@MrWiggles> after roles are picked [16:49] <@derpladee> during day1? [16:49] <Jackal58> That + DT will kill [16:49] <@MrWiggles> yeah [16:49] <@MrWiggles> and he picks day 1 lynch [16:49] <@jimbosilvers> If I got pick 1, [16:50] <@jimbosilvers> I think that framer could totally be used in a pro-town way. [16:50] <@derpladee> are there multiple elections? [16:50] <@jimbosilvers> Now that I think about it [16:50] <@derpladee> i mean another mayor day2? or after mayor dies [16:50] <@MrWiggles> It's basically a one-way bus-driver, isn't it? [16:50] <@hiro_pro> 1st gets mayor, 2 gets pardoner [16:50] <@MrWiggles> no, just one elecetion [16:50] <Jackal58> 1 mayor [16:50] <@jimbosilvers> Cause it's really more of a redirector, with the framer thing tacked on. [16:50] <@MrWiggles> yeah [16:50] <Jackal58> pardoner needs to die fast [16:50] <@MrWiggles> mhmm [16:51] <@MrWiggles> Is there even pro-town ways to use pardoner that don't rely on counteing vote-rigger or saving an imba role that you believe is town? [16:51] <@jimbosilvers> We already discussed the Pardoner a while back. [16:51] <Jackal58> mayor is cool and all but pardoner is the real power role [16:51] <@MrWiggles> ahhh [16:51] <@chaosers> yes [16:51] <@chaosers> pardoner needs to die [16:51] <@hiro_pro> If pardoner is ackbar that would be good for town haha [16:51] <@MrWiggles> mind querying or pming me the logs? [16:51] <@jimbosilvers> Here's the problem with that. [16:51] <@jimbosilvers> I'll explain it here: [16:52] <@jimbosilvers> Pardoner cannot be lynched day 1 [16:52] <@chaosers> yeah i know [16:52] <@jimbosilvers> Rules. [16:52] <@jimbosilvers> Pardoner cannot be shot till BGs are gone. [16:52] <@jimbosilvers> That means that the fastest we can kill the Pardoner is a day 2 policy lynch [16:52] <@chaosers> it'd have to be a day two policy lynch [16:52] <@chaosers> yeah [16:52] <Jackal58> he can be lynched [16:52] <@chaosers> which makes no sense [16:52] <@chaosers> he can't be lynched day 1 [16:52] <@jimbosilvers> And a day 2 policy lynch will be REALLY bad for town. [16:52] <@chaosers> mayor can't lynch him [16:52] <Jackal58> mayor can lynch him day 1 [16:52] <@jimbosilvers> Policy lynches stagnate discussion [16:53] <@chaosers> we jsut have to be sure we're voting a townie into pardoner [16:53] <@MrWiggles> Can he pardon his own lynch? [16:53] <@jimbosilvers> No [16:53] <@chaosers> no he can't [16:53] <@MrWiggles> kk [16:53] <@MrWiggles> good [16:53] <Jackal58> dont think so [16:53] <@chaosers> but if he's hero [16:53] <@chaosers> he's basically unkilalble [16:53] <@jimbosilvers> But again, policy lynches should be avoided at all costs. [16:53] <Jackal58> or vig [16:53] <Jackal58> sorry vet This is a sample. Compare the writing style. I write in multiple lines because I train of thought a lot, and I use emoticons. I also don't use periods, really. At least imitate my style, geez. :p | ||
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On October 19 2011 07:54 JimboSilvers wrote: I was impersonating wiggles in irc. That conversation was me. I was also impersonating Kenpachi in irc, the only conversation that you posted was the one that we had. (Obviously there were more though, so I'd like to see them if Ken has them) The inventor thought that he invented a vote list check, but found out that the PM didn't send when it didn't show up in the day post. He feels like a failure in that regard, and sends his apologies. And yeah. He get's how stupid it is, but he honestly did think that he had sent in the PM. I have more irc logs, I'll try to post them soon. l0l. | ||
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I played badly this game, overestimated the amount of time I would have with midterms. I probably would have been fine, but the thread was dead pretty much all game long, with everyone just sitting in IRC, which I couldn't afford to do all day. So, that left me with little to do but yell at Syllo for being scummy. Our team somewhat hinged on use of the puppeteer to come into contact with the other teams, but after losing Cyber and Chaoser n1 (Screw IRC, next game with it as mafia, if I have time, I'm just screwing with everyone to make it as useless as I can) that was dead in the water. Ken revealed Decon, and then there wasn't much to do, after meapak was revealed in thread. I was pretty scummy, and surprised I wasn't shot on Night 1. I couldn't sit in IRC enough to look town, either. I was thinking of contacting Decon or Meapak on Day 2, but didn't have enough time to put in a good effort to do so. I doubt they would have listened to me either, unless I gave them my team's QT, or something. I think a major factor contributing to town's victory was that this game had multiple families as well as complete freedom to use PM and IRC. It was basically impossible to get into contact with another mafia family. Even if you red-checked them, and knew they were mafia, they probably wouldn't respond to you, as they would just assume that you're town fishing for info. We hoped to use the puppet for this, because he could drop details, such as family, hits, etc. without incriminating himself. Unfortunately, the puppet was shot. T.T Town was bad at fishing for info in PM. I was contacted by Palmar, who claimed my own family to me, and by WBG, who I knew was town as soon as he started trying to push for more info about our hit that night, and when he claimed his family's shot was blocked the night before. I knew I was apparent scum at that point, though, so I didn't bother "turning him in" to Radfield like I did Palmar. (Also, our plan was to shoot/steal Jimbo anyways, so you didn't affect anything WBG, haha) I think in future games with multiple families like this, there shouldn't be free PMs. Instead, add in anonymous PM/Mason roles, so that mafia families who want to use diplomacy as part of their game-plan can choose to do so, and it mitigates the effect of mafia being more disorganized. In a free PM game, town can organize itself, but mafia can't, really, without things like puppeteer that let them get into contact more safely. If you claim town to someone, it doesn't matter, but claiming scum is a little like shooting yourself in the foot, haha. Also, to know to contact someone means they need to look scummy, and to get contacted means you look scummy, which is counter-intuitive to your goal of survival. Another solution would be to give each mafia family it's own puppet, but the puppets can't actually PM each other, only players in the game. This will give mafia a way to contact and blackmail each other, and lets town try to pose as mafia to the puppet to gain information. You could give mayor a puppet too, maybe. :p (I like puppets) Back to studying, ~Mr. Wiggles | ||
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The ip argument doesn't hold very well, as people can change how their ip appears, and impersonate someone that way. I'm pretty much a noob when it comes to IRC, but I'm assuming it wouldn't be that hard to look up a proxy from an area near where someone lives, and then connect through that and claim you're on a laptop, and at a café or public WIFI or something. So, you get into a situation where you have to come up with passwords or something just to make sure the person you're talking to on IRC is who you really think it is. I don't like this, because it detracts from the point of mafia, and becomes more about technical ability and who's cleverest when it comes to masking who you really are or verifying identity. I'm not that mad about this game, because Jimbo actually came out in the thread, and claimed he was the one doing it. but, for example if he was mafia and I was town, I'd have been pretty pissed if he had been impersonating me on IRC and "scum-slipping" to people or something similar, because then I'd look very scummy, and it would be very hard to deny, as no one would have my ip copied as I wasn't on IRC, so I couldn't disprove it that way, and there's no way he would admit to it in thread. So basically, I would be punished for not being on IRC. Personally, I think it goes somewhat against the spirit of the game, and I don't see the difference between that, and for example faking a TL account (You can just check their post count, analogous to ip-checking), or making several fake Skype accounts players, so if you didn't already have them on skype from a prior game, you are again punished for not having done so. I think this is something that should be discussed for future games, and an amendment to the game OP added. Either we should decide if it's allowed or not, or if it should be host's decision. If it's allowed, it should be mentioned in the OP. If I were new, or it was my first PM game, I wouldn't like it if I got lynched because I wasn't aware of the possibility of myself or someone else being impersonated on IRC. For example, imagine a new player who claims his entire mafia team to someone in IRC because he didn't know a town player could be impersonating his team mate. I think it would make for a pretty crappy game. Personally, I think it shouldn't be allowed, unless the host wants to specifically provide for it, and then the host should make a note that he's doing so in the game OP. | ||
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On October 24 2011 06:34 wherebugsgo wrote: I don't see how public key cryptography would change a thread game into a PM game. If it's public key then everyone can crack the crypt. EDIT: Not to mention only one player was caught by the IRC impersonation, it was in a public IRC channel, and there are multitudes of ways to prevent impersonation. You can do a PM check (something GM, Incog and I did in XLV) where you ask the person to confirm themselves by giving you all the capital letters in your last PM. That's an almost fool-safe way of preventing someone from misleading you. You can create secret channels if you want to talk to your scumbuddies. You can make your own channel and make it secret/password it by just looking up "how to put a password on an IRC channel" in google. First few hits, problem solved. Why is everyone crying about this when only one player was found through the impersonation? It is completely his own fault he got caught and was careless, and Jimbo's ingenuity should be praised. It was an excellent tactic to infiltrate the mafia who were mostly really complacent and weak this game. Where do I give the impression I'm "crying" about it? Firstly, it always catches two people, as the person who is responding to you would only respond that way to his scum-buddy. So, it caught both Cyber, who responded, and Chaoser who Jimbo was posing as, even though Chaoser did nothing himself to get caught. I'm saying that I personally don't like it, but if everyone else playing on TL mafia doesn't care, or think it's a problem, then I'm fine if something just is added to the OP of PM games, along the lines of "Keep in mind impersonation outside of PMs is possible", to warn players, and also give a buffer to new players to stop them from outing their entire team. I think it's a pretty crappy way to play the game, if let's say Nooby McGee was playing for the first time, and someone posing as one of his scumbuddies contacted him in IRC saying "What do you think of our team mates so far?" and he gave the entire list of mafia over to town on day 1, because he didn't realize that IRC impersonation was possible. It's situations like that I want to avoid, because it isn't mafia, it's just dumb, and that's just one example. | ||
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On October 24 2011 07:12 Qatol wrote: I absolutely agree that it's a crappy way to play the game. I can add something about using IRC at your own risk to the model OP if you like. That sounds fine, just something to let newer players know that they shouldn't trust everything on IRC necessarily. For example, I wasn't really aware of it, and I'm sure Cyber wasn't aware of it when he confirmed himself and Chaoser as scum. I'm just glad he didn't out more of us. On October 24 2011 07:16 JimboSilvers wrote: The problem with the irc impersonation is the fact that i could have caught every scum that ever logged into irc with it. I didn't because I realized that it was game breaking, and stopped. It's extremely powerful, especially when people are unaware of it like they were this game. That being said, i DON'T think it should be banned. Those avenues should be open, and people should be allowed to be creative with their play (like honeypot). Looked down on? Sure, but banned? No. I think that people should be made aware of it, so that they can defend against it, but I really feel like it is in the same grain as bread-crumbing roles, and alignment PMs, which have been traditionally allowed. Mafia is a multi-faceted game, and I want it to remain that way. Creativity should always be rewarded. I still think it should be a host decision, though, and it would just be enforced in the same way as any other rules. Most of the rules on TL Mafia are enforced by the honour system more than anything else. For example, there's not really a way to tell if two players are breaking a no-PM rule unless one of them outs the other. Same thing for breaking into someone's TL account to look at their role PM. Most of this just relies an an inherent amount of trust in the players. So, making it a host decision shouldn't make more work for the hosts, as it would just work the same way as most every other rule in the game. This is the same way role PM bread-crumbing works too, some hosts allow it, others put example PMs in their OP to negate it, and others modkill you if you mention anything from a PM sent from a host. On October 24 2011 07:21 wherebugsgo wrote: Wiggles, itcertainly seems like people are QQing about it when they say that it's against the spirit of the game. It's a form of infiltration. Politics. That's what this game was about. Mafia could've impersonated town to try and get information. Mafia could've tried to get into town circles to try and sabotage them from the inside. Instead, you guys were complacent, your play was bland, and you all suffered for it. I'll put this here: Tell me, other than sandro, which scum even attempted to scheme or plan to sabotage town goals? Finally, chaoser was going to get shot well before the IRC debacle. To say that he was caught by the IRC impersonation is a misrepresentation, only cheese was caught that way. This isn't about town or mafia, or even this game. I don't really like it, because while it might be creative, it doesn't really require any skill or finesse. There's not much skill involved in pretending to be someone else and getting them to claim to you because they think you're their team mate. Like I've said, you could win the game on day 1 this way, if mafia aren't aware of the strategy. Also, when I say Chaoser was caught, that's because he was. It doesn't matter if you though he was scummy or not beforehand, I was just using him as an example. If Player A responds as a scumbuddy Player B, that pretty much confirms both Player A and Player B as scum. You just caught two mafia, doing nothing. Your line of reasoning doesn't hold, either. Saying it's a game of intrigue and politics could be used to justify any action. What if someone impersonated the mods in IRC and had people claim to them? Is that OK because it's scheming, and this is a game of intrigue and politics? There isn't a rule against it explicitly in the OP, so it must be fine, right? This is where the "spirit of the game" comes in, because players should be able to use their own judgement for what's acceptable or not in a game. The OP can't cover everything. That's also why we should discuss things like this, that fall into a somewhat grey area, just like we discussed account-sharing before, when that came up. So, judging by the discussion, people don't think this is a problem, so I'm going to drop it. The warning in the OP should be good enough to warn people about it, so we don't get unaware mafia handing out all their members to town. (Also funny because of rule number 2) It's important they know, because it's almost required that some of them use a public IRC if it exists, or else they just let town set up a giant circle where mafia can't see what's happening and can't influence it in any way. I still think it should ultimately be a host decision, though. | ||
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On October 24 2011 07:59 wherebugsgo wrote: Of course my logic holds. Impersonating the mods is already illegal because you're not allowed to impersonate people who are not participating in the game. There was a precedent for that and it might not be in the OP but that's not even what I'm suggesting. And again, this completely ignores a multitude of different things. Foolishness early in the game trashed the idea of public IRC. He received PMs from myself and Hiro; I asked him why he would say such a thing as town. Is it not clear now why an experienced player would think public IRC is useless? (and IRC in general is an unreliable form of communication) Using the excuse that this game was a game of "intrigue and politics" isn't great reasoning for allowing impersonation in IRC, then. Obviously there's a line somewhere, if you can't impersonate people outside the game, as obviously that falls under "intrigue". So, there has to be a different justification for allowing it. I don't care if the mods allowed it in this game, what I'm talking about, is if we should allow this in future games. Also, public IRC is not that great because it doesn't let you pressure anyone, as people can feign AFK to avoid real-time pressure, and not everyone has all the logs because not all logs are posted, and no one's signed in all the time. So, you cause an information disadvantage for many players, without really gaining anything when compared to just talking in the thread. There's probably many other reasons why a public IRC isn't that great, but I don't think Foolishness had impersonation in mind when he said that. Finally, of course it's about mafia and town in this game. Mafia did nothing to stop town from infiltrating their circles. It was carelessness and complacency. If I was scum I would have my own private, passworded IRC channel (if we were to use IRC at all). In fact, Chezinu house had a more secret IRC channel than probably anyone else. And again, it's not really much about tech savvyness, or whatever. You can figure out how to password lock and make a channel secret in about five seconds on google. You can ask people to do PM verification in a matter of seconds. IMO this kind of thing is a complete non issue because of the number of ways to avoid getting duped. I think the OP change is completely fair and good for newer players, but there is absolutely no excuse, IMO, for more experienced players. This doesn't have anything to do with circle infiltration. Cyber wasn't caught because we had a mafia channel that we didn't set to invisible and someone /whois'ed him, it has to do with someone joining the channel and pretending to be chaoser and then Cyber trusting that he really was. IRC impersonation adds barely anything to the game for town except for trapping mafia members who aren't aware of the strategy, but who are pretty much forced to use the public IRC so they don't have an information disadvantage, to avoid suspicion, and to stop a giant town circle from forming. At that point, you aren't playing mafia. You're just taking advantage of players who aren't as knowledgeable about certain strategies as you. So, explain this to me. What does IRC impersonation add to the game? On October 24 2011 07:59 Radfield wrote: Indeed, and you probably didn't realize it, but you basically confirmed yourself when you told me you went for BB. It was funny because of how careful you were being as to whether or not you got it, when of course I already had it  I think things like IRC impersonation are outside what I would generally consider the limits of the game. At that point you are playing a different game than what I initially signed up for. After this incident, it's highly likely no one from this game, or anyone watching this game, will get caught again, but I would expect that if this continued en-mass, many new players would get burned. How do people feel about things like IRC and Skype in general? Personally I feel a PM only game would be far more fun than a PM game with real time chat. Certainly more balanced in favor of scum. Many players here also talk a lot outside of mafia games, which gives them a massive head start towards deducing their buddies alignment. Do people prefer real-time chat in games? ALSO...... NO MODKILLS!! I can't remember the last game I played with no modkills. Sure sinani was cut a bunch of slack, but still.... no modkills I personally like games with only PM, and no real-time component. For group discussion, allow players to create QTs that they must provide to the host, as well. On October 24 2011 08:05 chaoser wrote: +1 cause I CAN in this subforum MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA +1 | ||
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On October 25 2011 08:45 wherebugsgo wrote: If only scum had puppets why would anyone ever reply to them? Scum would reply to work together or gain information Town would reply to see if scum would slip and let out any information. I'd say let people PM the puppets, though, like what I said. | ||
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On October 25 2011 09:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote: I say no PM'ing puppets because puppets PM'ing each other means town can't push puppets for information nearly as easily. What if the rule was 'Puppets can't pm each other'? Another solution would be to give each mafia family it's own puppet, but the puppets can't actually PM each other, only players in the game. This will give mafia a way to contact and blackmail each other, and lets town try to pose as mafia to the puppet to gain information. You could give mayor a puppet too, maybe. :p (I like puppets) And let people PM the puppets, which I meant, but didn't explicitly write. | ||
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Either give mafia a form of safe communication, like puppets, or take out free PMs and introduce anonymous PM roles that mafia can pick if they want to use diplomacy or communicate. In this set-up, I can't think of any good ways of contacting and actually being able to effectively work with other scum families besides a role like puppeteer paired with a DT, or just claiming scum openly and hoping people will contact you, which you could then check and verify to be scum, or hand out an anonymous QT, or something like that. If someone PMs you claiming to be scum, and that they think you are scum, you're never going to give them any information because there's a high likelihood they're just town fishing for information. If you PM someone claiming to be scum, then if they're actually scum, they'll think the same, or if they're town, they'll be more suspicious of you. I can't really think of a good way to contact other scum families in an open PM set-up like this, where you can actually work together. Open PMs lets town coordinate a lot more, and set up safe-guards for trying to fake-claim scum, and makes it so that anyone can PM you, and thus you must be suspicious of everyone. In a game where scum are meant to coordinate and use politics, there wasn't really a good outlet for them to do so. Like I said, the only ways I see, is use of the puppet, or claiming scum if you're outed by a DT or about to be lynched, or if you picked Hero or something in conjunction with a protective role. | ||
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Don't you see that with: Knowing that, why didn't you guys just PM people and see what you thought? Once you get in a situation where you claim scum, either they play along or they ditch/out you. If you get outed in the thread, and you have said reasonably "pro-town" things behind the scenes to well established town players, you'll be fine. Example: sandro. You can't really accomplish anything, or anything you can accomplish will take several cycles to happen?If you contact another player claiming scum, their first assumption will almost always be that you're town. There's no reason to believe otherwise, and to do so would be idiocy, unless you have an alignment check or something, and even then you should be wary. So, that means that you're stuck in a situation where you have to play coy with them and straddle the line between "I'm really town" and "I'm scum" in your communications. You can't drop enough details to confirm yourself, because then there's the potential you gave away information to town and confirmed yourself as scum, or you gave them something to blackmail you with with nothing in return. So, you can either both play along and play footsies, without actually accomplishing anything concrete besides dropping little hints at each other for fear that your counter-part is town, or you can outright claim, and run the risk that you're going to get screwed for it, when preservation of your team is more important than cooperation with the other mafia families. "Pro-town" safeguards don't work, because then you're posing as town, and thus can't start any other communications once you've been outed. No mafia will trust you again. So, sure it might save you from a lynch, for a day or two, but it stops all possibility of forming a connection personally. Basically, all scum are going to keep up the pretense of being town in PM, so that they have an out if they get outed in thread or the person they're talking to is town. This stops any real effective communication, unless you feel like gambling. No mafia to my knowledge felt like gambling this game, and so no communication between families was established. | ||
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On October 27 2011 03:46 sandroba wrote: I had little to no impact late game and I honestly don't know how I could have done better, given the situation I put myself in. Happy Birthday! | ||
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