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On October 14 2011 05:05 wherebugsgo wrote:
If a framer redirects someone into another person, does that mean that the target is actually redirected, or that it simply APPEARS that the target is redirected?
i.e. if a vanilla townie were redirected to an NRA member by a framer, would that vanilla townie then die or would it simply appear to a tracker that the vanilla townie visited the NRA member that night?
In addition, you may also choose to have your framed target visit anyone you choose. Any actions they perform will also be misdirected.
The action(s) are performed so it sounds like a safe assumption that all roles are forced to visit
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In the interest of getting more useful discussion going (and to bring others in on this, if they haven't been in irc),
Elections:
Elections should be based on analysis. Period. We look at who is the most town-helping, active, leading person. We don't elect someone because they got Inventor. We don't base the mayoral pick off of role. Not off of draft pick. Analysis.
The (somewhat) obvious reason being, role != alignment. Electing someone claiming inventor would bad, because if they are mafia, we have more likely elected a hero, and his team also has the inventor. For that reason, I say that we ignore roles when deciding who to elect. (Yes, that means NO pulling the "I'm a DT, now elect me so I don't get killed" stunt.)
Also, I'll be running for Mayor.
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Honestly in a game with this many scum i feel obligated to run for mayor.
vote jacuzzi
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also the mayor should be kept on a far shorter leash than usual this game since it's way more likely that the mayor will be scum than in normal games.
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elections will be 4 factions competing for 2 great roles and it's gonna be a crazyfest. i think we should be really active day1 and get some candidates down as soon as possible.
also after rednkted's last post i just realized that with town going for prot roles, people will be free to derp it up all they want
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I'm awfully suspicious of anyone making assumptions on role picks without considering the 3 scum teams which drastically changes things. For instance, KP roles are much more reliable and therefore stronger, while non-self defensive roles might actually be better for mafia. Both doctor and medic allow one member to really scum-hunt with everone's help and they will most likely not die. Self defensive roles might be the best genre of role, for both town and mafia.
One great aspect is that opposing scum teams will probably overlap roles that mafia would normally take for free if town didn't actively deny it. Mafia won't be wasting time denying town roles at this point so I think grabbing these roles assures we will get a better assortment then any one scum team.
+ Show Spoiler +Ace - Lie is the big word here  America - Spotlight role, causes confusion most of the time but puts a focus on America from all factions. Assassin - Because you can't name GREEN, I think it's much better for town, as it has a safeguard if they repeatedly name RED. A less restricted CV role is better for scum. Bad Santa - With more inherent KP, I think this is pretty good information grab for town that doesn't necessarily need to be used, while for mafia, it's maybe 1 kill or just some info that's more easily attainable with other roles. Bullet Bill - Great town role, and I don't see mafia's use for this. Day Vigilante - similar to america, spotlight and such. Detective - alignment is useless to mafia, while this will be more sought after then other role finders Dreamflower - Town will risk killing themselves instead of another townie, mafia will not :D NKVD Agent - alignment no role Parity Cop - alignment no role Puppeteer - A strong scumhunter at the bottom of the list could make good use of this, and I believe you can PM the smurf? Tracker - Information Watcher - Information
These roles I feel a scum team has much less use for then town does. If you are town and not sure what to pick, I suggest picking one of these roles, as they help town by nature, or are useless or spotlight driven to mafia. It can be argued that mafia could take one of these roles to appear pro-town, but between having to prove themselves to us and not getting nailed by enemy scum requires a lot of work that could easily collapse. I feel like we are much to vigilant for this sort of thing to slip by us. I think I know what I'm talking about here because I have tried it many times as scum 
I wouldn't attempt it in this set-up.
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Also, for the mayoral elections, we need to remember that the Pardoner is a much more powerful role than the mayor. That means that we should pay close attention to how the race plays out, because mafia will want to grab the pardoner a lot more than they would mayor, in my opinion.
Would people agree to getting DTs to focus checks into the list of candidates to dissuade multiple mafia from running in the election with multiple members? It won't stop them all, but it might keep every scum team from getting 2+ members to run, haha.
In any case, people running for mayor should be scrutinized heavily.
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i like the idea of narrowing down the candidates and then threatening them with having them dt checked.
mafia are surely going to try to get one of theirs elected if they can and while pardoner is stronger than mayor, mayor is still storng. if we narrow down the range of people who are candidates mafia can't just suddenly vote in a pardoner in the last second by switching a single vote or something like that.
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On October 14 2011 05:56 bumatlarge wrote:I'm awfully suspicious of anyone making assumptions on role picks without considering the 3 scum teams which drastically changes things. For instance, KP roles are much more reliable and therefore stronger, while non-self defensive roles might actually be better for mafia. Both doctor and medic allow one member to really scum-hunt with everone's help and they will most likely not die. Self defensive roles might be the best genre of role, for both town and mafia. One great aspect is that opposing scum teams will probably overlap roles that mafia would normally take for free if town didn't actively deny it. Mafia won't be wasting time denying town roles at this point so I think grabbing these roles assures we will get a better assortment then any one scum team. + Show Spoiler +Ace - Lie is the big word here America - Spotlight role, causes confusion most of the time but puts a focus on America from all factions. Assassin - Because you can't name GREEN, I think it's much better for town, as it has a safeguard if they repeatedly name RED. A less restricted CV role is better for scum. Bad Santa - With more inherent KP, I think this is pretty good information grab for town that doesn't necessarily need to be used, while for mafia, it's maybe 1 kill or just some info that's more easily attainable with other roles. Bullet Bill - Great town role, and I don't see mafia's use for this. Day Vigilante - similar to america, spotlight and such. Detective - alignment is useless to mafia, while this will be more sought after then other role finders Dreamflower - Town will risk killing themselves instead of another townie, mafia will not :D NKVD Agent - alignment no role Parity Cop - alignment no role Puppeteer - A strong scumhunter at the bottom of the list could make good use of this, and I believe you can PM the smurf? Tracker - Information Watcher - Information These roles I feel a scum team has much less use for then town does. If you are town and not sure what to pick, I suggest picking one of these roles, as they help town by nature, or are useless or spotlight driven to mafia. It can be argued that mafia could take one of these roles to appear pro-town, but between having to prove themselves to us and not getting nailed by enemy scum requires a lot of work that could easily collapse. I feel like we are much to vigilant for this sort of thing to slip by us. I think I know what I'm talking about here because I have tried it many times as scum I wouldn't attempt it in this set-up.
Of that list, I disagree with a couple of points-
Assassin can kill by role, and has some good synergies with things like extractor/NKVD, I don't think it belongs on a pro-town list despite it's drawbacks.
A scum team that could manipulate town gains a huge advantage over it's rivals, so we shouldn't rule out the possibilty of information roles being taken even if they don't benefit scum directly.
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CC actually makes a really good point. Someone earlier made an assumption about mafia not wanting to take two roles for one KP by taking assassin and NKVD or extractor. While this is a reasonable assumption (to an extent) it ignores the idea that scum can take information roles to deny them to town, plus it avoids clashing with scum on the KP roles. Then, if they happen to have a guy within the top 5, they can probably also safely pick assassin and get a free KP to boot while denying town the information role.
The alternative is to go for one of the KP roles and potentially clash with other scum who are also looking for KP roles. Assassin is generally useless unless you have a way of determining role/alignment, so IMO it's actually probably more likely to be a scum role than a town one, since telegraphing reads to the assassin if he's on town would be rather difficult.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Here's the thing with the mayor. In a normal set-up. one scum HAS to run for mayor, as not competing for the elected roles leaves you at a serious disadvantage. However, running for mayor also comes at a cost to mafia, as they have to spotlight themselves. Increased scrutiny goes hand in hand with running for mayor.
It is very viable for any single mafia team to simply not run, and hope that some other scum team competes and spotlights themselves. Discussion will center around every candidate running, so the ability to stay out of the spotlight while still splitting up the elected roles between multiple teams is a tempting prospect.
A couple guidelines for running for mayor as i see them:
* Do not run for mayor if you are dreamflower or Doctor
* Do not run for mayor if you are vanilla townie, unless you are a solid scumhunter(or have zero faith in any of the other options)
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Framer+ NRA member poses an interesting problem. If a town player takes NRA member, the optimal play is to claim, but only if the framer has also claimed. An NRA member can absolutely NOT CLAIM if the framer is hidden. As pointed out by others, the framer could simply direct any claimed blues into the NRA member.
For this reason, I think it makes sense for Dropbear to go for Framer. I haven't fully thought of all the possibilities, but in my current wine-addled state this makes a lot of sense. There exists the possibility for Dropbear to be mafia, but I don't think there is very much mischief he can cause to us by lying, especially compared with the amount of attention he would draw on himself. Cost benefit analysis says he should draft Framer.
However, the thief/roleswapper is a problem as they could swipe the power. Dropbear can't simply come out into the thread and claim he got it. This is where Chaosers Qatol plan comes in. If a player lower down takes Qatol, they can PM Dropbear and ask him if he got framer, then ban him if he did. This nullifies the power, and leaves us in good shape.
This is a bit convoluted I admit, but I do like the idea of Dropbear going for Framer. Not much risk vs moderate reward.
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Kenpachi, you have the second overall pick. I'd love to hear your overall thoughts on the game so far.
Mig, I'd like to hear your thoughts too. Is our current townie picking plan a good one? What are potential downfalls? Are there any roles that should be on the tier list? Etc.
Protact, I think you missed this question when i asked it earlier:
If cupid tries to tie the NRA member to another player, will cupid be killed?
also
What order are actions performed in. If a role swapper and thief both target the same player, which person gets the role? First player to send in their action I presume?
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I think we should maybe prioritize the KP roles listed in radfield's list a little bit higher. as a lot of you have said scum will want them too, so if we save them for the end of the line they most likely will all be gone. whereas scum dont want investigative/protective roles as much as we do, so we can afford to have them near the bottom of the list.
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On October 14 2011 07:38 Radfield wrote:
Here's the thing with the mayor. In a normal set-up. one scum HAS to run for mayor, as not competing for the elected roles leaves you at a serious disadvantage. However, running for mayor also comes at a cost to mafia, as they have to spotlight themselves. Increased scrutiny goes hand in hand with running for mayor.
It is very viable for any single mafia team to simply not run, and hope that some other scum team competes and spotlights themselves. Discussion will center around every candidate running, so the ability to stay out of the spotlight while still splitting up the elected roles between multiple teams is a tempting prospect.
A couple guidelines for running for mayor as i see them:
* Do not run for mayor if you are dreamflower or Doctor
* Do not run for mayor if you are vanilla townie, unless you are a solid scumhunter(or have zero faith in any of the other options)
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Framer+ NRA member poses an interesting problem. If a town player takes NRA member, the optimal play is to claim, but only if the framer has also claimed. An NRA member can absolutely NOT CLAIM if the framer is hidden. As pointed out by others, the framer could simply direct any claimed blues into the NRA member.
For this reason, I think it makes sense for Dropbear to go for Framer. I haven't fully thought of all the possibilities, but in my current wine-addled state this makes a lot of sense. There exists the possibility for Dropbear to be mafia, but I don't think there is very much mischief he can cause to us by lying, especially compared with the amount of attention he would draw on himself. Cost benefit analysis says he should draft Framer.
However, the thief/roleswapper is a problem as they could swipe the power. Dropbear can't simply come out into the thread and claim he got it. This is where Chaosers Qatol plan comes in. If a player lower down takes Qatol, they can PM Dropbear and ask him if he got framer, then ban him if he did. This nullifies the power, and leaves us in good shape.
This is a bit convoluted I admit, but I do like the idea of Dropbear going for Framer. Not much risk vs moderate reward.
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Kenpachi, you have the second overall pick. I'd love to hear your overall thoughts on the game so far.
Mig, I'd like to hear your thoughts too. Is our current townie picking plan a good one? What are potential downfalls? Are there any roles that should be on the tier list? Etc.
Protact, I think you missed this question when i asked it earlier:
If cupid tries to tie the NRA member to another player, will cupid be killed?
also
What order are actions performed in. If a role swapper and thief both target the same player, which person gets the role? First player to send in their action I presume?
But what if dropbear is scum, gets framer, and replies that he failed to get it? Qatol then fails to ban the framer, and the shitstorm ensues.
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Just ban dropbear as soon as day starts?
He's either VT, so nothing lost, or he's framer, in which case we remove it.
Depends what else people think banning can be used for.
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Qatol can ban daily. It's not a one off power.
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On October 14 2011 08:12 Jackal58 wrote:
Qatol can ban daily. It's not a one off power.
yea just figured that out....
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Sorry, I've been busy in irc and forgotten to look at your plan in detail Rad, but my first thoughts looking though it are:
DT roles are not that useful to mafia (except in special cases like wbg pointed out) This means that they will be relatively easy to get. DT roles should NOT be prioritized in the top. I'd say maybe the low mid should grab these roles.
Top picks should be uber town roles and self defense (so that it's dangerous to shoot in there)
Mid-high picks should be KP, IF we want it.
I'll be back about an hour before the deadline to read more.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
well, the idea is to consolidate KP roles in the slots 20-28. This gives role cop/capitalist/bullet bill/tracker maximum potential. Any players caught with KP roles below twenty are instantly suspicious.
For Reference:
Investigative/Defensive Roles Picks 1-20
Top 6 pick one of these roles taken into consideration high placed mafia may take something else:
Inventor
Jack
NRA (must claim)
Rock Star
7-14:
NKVD
Medic
Detective
Veteran
Bulletproof
Doctor
Parity Cop
15-20
Jailkeeper
Bullet Bill
Capitalist
Meth Man
Bulletproof
Witch
Role Cop
Veteran
Tracker
KP and Auxillary Roles Picks #21-28
Methman
Day Vig
Dreamflower
America
King Maker
Qatol
Copy Cat
Mad Hatter
Bad Santa
Ace
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On October 14 2011 08:24 JimboSilvers wrote:
Sorry, I've been busy in irc and forgotten to look at your plan in detail Rad, but my first thoughts looking though it are:
DT roles are not that useful to mafia (except in special cases like wbg pointed out) This means that they will be relatively easy to get. DT roles should NOT be prioritized in the top. I'd say maybe the low mid should grab these roles.
Top picks should be uber town roles and self defense (so that it's dangerous to shoot in there)
Mid-high picks should be KP, IF we want it.
I'll be back about an hour before the deadline to read more.
How do you figure? There are 3 different scum teams all trying to identify their competition. Each one of those teams will be trying to pick a DT role.
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EPT
