On July 18 2011 11:57 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:51 Zona wrote:
^
Well, a "1-1 trade" benefits town a TON more than the mafia, if the town is vanilla. But a DT trade for a mafia is a poor one. Oops, I might have screwed up the logic, haha. Been playing scum for too long. O.o Green for mafia is an awesome trade, as we outnumber the mafia. 1-1 with a DT isn't great early on, especially depending on who the scum is. For example, if you checked random lurker A and they returned red, try to get them shot or lynched, don't claim. Trading a DT for a red lurker isn't a very good trade, when we can get additional use out of the DT. Use your discretion, but I think making a push for a lynch based on analysis should be the first step taken, before any kind of claim.
ok Lets take a look at Mr Wiggles, since MiG was one of the first to vote redFF and also has been actively accusing and building cases.
What stands out to me right away is that wiggles is talking about the mechanics of the game and when he isnt he is apologizing for talking about them :
On July 19 2011 04:17 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 04:01 Shraft wrote:On July 19 2011 03:42 supersoft wrote:
i already told you: mig and curu. Why did you lie about being caught up in the PM game? Can curu confirm he's been in PM contact with supersoft, and for how long? I don't remember reading that in the thread. Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 03:29 Palmar wrote:On July 19 2011 02:16 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On July 18 2011 21:13 Drazerk wrote:Time to actually go to work I guess. Let's start with our always scum fellow Mr. Wiggles shall we? Now we could say wiggles has a track record of being scum but the problem is his scum play has been pretty bland, In fact in RTM / WaW2 we was able to pick him out as scum just because of how little effort he puts in when being scum. Now when I read the thread this morning I was pretty much blown away by how much effort he was putting in, Its almost as if he did a 180 and is trying his best to not follow his scum meta by promoting a pro town atmosphere. + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2011 10:25 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Ok, so let's get this started! First things first, let's lay out some things we want to achieve, and some guidelines. A pro-town atmosphereThis normally goes without saying, but it often bears repeating. If we want to catch scum, we need to have the proper environment for scum hunting and for communicating with each other. This means a couple things: - Promoting scum hunting.
- Not having pointless arguments
- Actively contributing
- All that jazz
Basically, we want to keep the thread as clean as possible, because chaos best serves mafia, not town. If you really don't know what to do, there's town guides. I'm not going to write one here, because I'm too lazy, and don't consider myself experienced enough to try. However, I am going to go through the three points above, as I think they are very important. We always want people to scum-hunt. There's never an excuse not to scum-hunt; everyone can do it. This provides us with many benefits. First, it's the primary method for actually finding scum. It also means that people have to give their actual thoughts, and have to come up with things beyond "I agree". This gives us information, and information is good. It lets us know what you're thinking, and it puts pressure on mafia to have to contribute. Also, forcing mafia to scum-hunt means that there's a good chance of catching them just based on their analysis, because it's hard to find people who are scummy, when you know they aren't scum. Next, we want to avoid bickering. This goes hand in hand with keeping the thread clean. This is different from actually debating with people, and you should be able to tell the difference between rationality, and NO U. If anyone is having a pointless argument, they will be asked to stop. It doesn't help town, only mafia. Lastly, we want people to contribute. There's a posting limit of 5 posts per day/night, but that doesn't give you permission to skirt that limit. It's easy for mafia to hide amongst lurkers, and beyond that, lurkers are nearly impossible to analyze. So, contribute. This doesn't mean make tons of pointless one-liners, it means providing actual thoughts, analysis, and content. You can do it, I believe in you. And if you don't, we can always just ask a vig to shoot you. We don't want people to lurk. CluesThere's clues in this game. However, all clue analysis MUST MUST MUST be backed up by post analysis. Before you post the clue analysis too. The reason for this, is that clues will most likely point to all kills. this means that some of the clues are going to point to vigs, some will point to third parties, and the others will point to mafia. Accidentally outing a vig because you solved the clues about them is bad. So, if you think someone's attached to a clue, go back and re-read their posts. If you think they look scummy, then post an analysis that contains the clue analysis. If you think they're town, just hold onto your analysis. Clue-analysis should always be used to supplement an actual behavioural analysis. It should never be the main point for calling someone scummy. In other words: Clues pointing towards a person does not equal scum. Third PartiesLooking at the third parties, here's what we want: -We want Joker to die. -We want Batman to kill Joker. -This means that Batman wins, and should hopefully be removed from the game, also removing Ra’as Al Ghul who can no longer achieve his victory condition. This is the optimal way the third party part of the game will go. We want Batman to kill Joker before Ra'as can kill Batman, so that we don't have to deal with Joker ourselves. So, if you think someone's acting like an SK, don't be afraid to point it out, as this should help Batman achieve his win-con, and let us get on with the rest of the game. If Joker is lynched, is Batman removed from the game?
If Batman is removed from the game, is Ra'as removed from the game?Thoughts? Disagreements? Let's get this rolling. You will see a post like that at the start of every game, In fact it's pretty much one of the easiest ways to gain townie points as the post is pretty much common sense followed with some "weak" policies. Notice how wiggles keeps mentioning the third parties? + Show Spoiler +On July 18 2011 10:58 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 10:37 deconduo wrote:
I agree that Batman killing the Joker is the ideal situation. However I would regard all 3rd party, including Batman, as anti-town. They constitute 3 extra KP each night which results in a faster lylo and less DT checks and clues. If we catch one they should be lynched. None of this 'Keep me alive and I'll help town' crap.
Given the size of the game and the heavy activity requirement there will be a lot of reading to do. There will certainly be people attempting to just pass with the bare minimum of posts. These people should be scrutinised intensly, and lynched if any clues point towards them. Mhmm, if we catch them, we should lynch them. However, how can we catch them? The only ways I can see, are through just behavioural analysis, and also clue analysis. That's why I say, that if someone is acting like an SK, we might as well lynch them. However, SKs normally act like lurkers, or are scummy, from my experience. So, that means the batman should be shooting into lurkers and scummy people. On the flip-side though, Ra'al is going to be shooting into pro-town players, as Batman wants to try to look like a green, most likely. The priority is: joker>batman>ra'al Because killing up the chain, removes the players below. So, I guess you're right, that we should always kill third-parties, to remove their KP. However, the priority should be on the joker, as he will most likely appear scummiest, and also his death removes all third parties. The constant talk of game mechanics makes it seem like he is pro town when he is pretty much posting fluff at this point he just seems to want to enter lylo later when he has established himself as a town player. Shall we go into his other posts about game mechanics? + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +On July 18 2011 11:01 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 10:57 redFF wrote:
If you clue analyse backing it up with some other form of analysis or evidence can help, but isn't necessary. If you see a clue don't be afraid to point it out.
Unless its like, x is a detective, then don't point it out lol. On the whole I think relying on clue analysis is pretty terrible though so i won't be basing any of my voting around some vague clue which could be pointing to 10 different people. Clue analysis can be strong, and also, newer players are sometimes easily swayed by it, because it seems like an "objective" form of scum-hunting. I'm saying, before pointing out any clues, look at the person who was killed, and the posting history of the player you think the clue is pointing to. For example, if they killed a mafia, and look super pro-town, what would be the possible benefits of pointing it out? However, if someone killed town, and look scummy, then make an actual analysis and then attach the perceived clue to it. No one should be lynched only on clues, and clues shouldn't just be looked at in a vacuum. On July 18 2011 11:06 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:02 CreamyButter wrote:Maybe it's because I only have 35 posts, but 5 posts a day seems like a hell of a lot, and I'm predicting a ton of spam/filler posts just to hit the minimum (I'm kind of freaking out about getting modkilled if I forget one evening lol). Maybe we should tag our posts like /analysis or /filler? Since I feel like if people are all forced to make 5 posts a day, there might be a lot of red herrings from tired townies who just want the day to end, and this way we can sort of manually adjust the posting minimum to like 3 "real" posts a day. Or 8 or whatever. @Curu Give me a sec to think about it. From what I understand the mafia just sort of chill, analyze/snipe blues, give confusing/chaos-inspiring analysis, and attempt to plant themselves into town circles. Not sure if there are any strategies that would be particular to this game yet, but will totally get back to you on that. Also I'm sure this is unintentional, but just to make sure, There's a posting limit of 5 posts per day/night, but that doesn't give you permission to skirt that limit. It's a minimum, not a limit, right? Yeah, it's a minimum, I just used the word limit for some reason =/ If you are being active and playing the game, you shouldn't really have any problem making the 5 post minimum. For example, you already made 2 decent posts, and still have almost 70 hours to make the other three to avoid mod-kill. Also, filler should mostly be avoided if possible, as there are always other things to post besides useless stuff. For example, you can comment on other people's analysis, on the voting patterns or bandwagons that are going to appear, on how people are acting or trying to manipulate town, etc. There's lots to talk about. :p On July 18 2011 11:06 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:03 deconduo wrote:On July 18 2011 11:00 redFF wrote:
And regarding blacks I feel it is best to ignore them. Usually I don't really like lynching blacks, but since they all have 1kp a night and will be shooting into town I say if we find them we should be lynching them.
Im going to be treating all the black roles as serial killers. I disagree about ignoring them. Effort should definitely be made in finding and lynching them, especially the Joker and/or Batman. Agreed. Together the third party hold the same amount of KP as the entire mafia, and based on probability, are more like to kill town than mafia too. On July 18 2011 11:49 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:41 Curu wrote:
Just a lovely note to our lovely DTs out there:
Never check a man who is a very likely lynch. If you find a guilty, well he's getting killed anyways. If you find an innocent, then you shouldn't be outing yourself to save him anyways unless there are very few players left in the game. The Godfather/third parties also give innocent checks.
To our lovely Vigilantes:
Likewise, if someone is declared a policy lynch or something of that nature, it is far better to have our Vigilantes shoot them instead. The lynch process gives us no information when reds can easily bandwagon lynch someone. Remember that the lynch is a process for finding information and connections as well, not just a simple kill. Also, to add on to advice for DTs, especially as there are a lot of newer players present, always try to form a case around a player based on analysis if you get a guilty check. Do not just claim. Claiming early is never a good thing, as a 1-1 trade with mafia benefits them more than town. On July 18 2011 11:57 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:51 Zona wrote:
^
Well, a "1-1 trade" benefits town a TON more than the mafia, if the town is vanilla. But a DT trade for a mafia is a poor one. Oops, I might have screwed up the logic, haha. Been playing scum for too long. O.o Green for mafia is an awesome trade, as we outnumber the mafia. 1-1 with a DT isn't great early on, especially depending on who the scum is. For example, if you checked random lurker A and they returned red, try to get them shot or lynched, don't claim. Trading a DT for a red lurker isn't a very good trade, when we can get additional use out of the DT. Use your discretion, but I think making a push for a lynch based on analysis should be the first step taken, before any kind of claim. So essentially most of his posts are either about, The third parties or how to deal with clues. He has actually done little scum hunting which is a typical trait of his scum play. In my opinion Wiggles is trying very hard to not look like his regular scum meta by "Appearing" to put in effort but with the little scum hunting / FoSing from him he seems to have just concentrated on the mechanics side of the game (Basically fluff) and promote his "Town atmosphere" the best way he can. FoS on Wiggles ##Vote: Mr. Wiggles I'm gonna address the case against me pretty quickly, but basically I'm being accused of talking about game mechanics for the first two hours of the game, and not scumhunting. (Game started 10KST, last quoted post at 11:57KST). This accusation is true, but shouldn't mark me as scummy, given that it's pretty hard to scum hunt in the first two hours of the game, as most people have yet to post, or have very few posts. Mechanics are just a starting point to get people talking at the beginning of the game, as there is very little else to talk about. Scumhunting begins from there. Hi. I would much rather have you actually scumhunt than just defending yourself, no one was going to lynch you so defending against that post was useless anyway, you can however be of use to town if you actually try to achieve something. Hi, I made one post here defending myself, from a sentiment that has been echoed several times in this thread, to cut it off before it becomes a silly bandwagon. I'm being preemptive here. Since that post, I've been re-reading the thread and taking notes on players. Scumhunting doesn't just magically appear. Also, while you're here: Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 23:09 Palmar wrote:On July 18 2011 22:42 supersoft wrote:
yoep, it's not my first game, but my first game with PMs. Like you said there is a tendency for not posting in the thread and writing PMs instead. Same thing for me.
On July 18 2011 22:54 supersoft wrote:
I won't push for your lynch right now. You are the only person, that wrote me so far. :D
Derp. ##Unvote CreamyButter##Vote Supersoft Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 23:22 Palmar wrote:On July 18 2011 23:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
##Vote supersoft
Not just one of the Coagulation bandwaggoners but just shady overall. Oh, the irony Would you mind explaining this to me, please, as well as clarifying your actual position on supersoft? You jump on the supersoft bandwagon, and then call out Nazgul for hopping on the same wagon 10 minutes later. Contradictory, much?
in this post he also attempts to make a case against palmar, an extremely poor case but nevertheless. Furthermore he is defending himself when it is completely unnecessary, and when hes done with defending he starts to talk about the mechanics again.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=240299¤tpage=39#778
This is very scummy in my opinion.
Then when redFF comes under fire he starts to talk about him, without really having an opinion, not defending, not accusing, just talking.
+ Show Spoiler +On July 20 2011 02:31 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2011 02:26 Jackal58 wrote:On July 20 2011 02:12 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On July 20 2011 02:09 Nisani201 wrote:
Unless there's something I've missed (which is unlikely because I read through the thread 3x as slowly as I input everything into my node graph), the only evidence against redFF that isn't related to supersoft is the fact that he posts a lot of spam, which isn't enough to warrant a lynch at all. Lynching supersoft, doesn't really tell us a ton about redFF though, so that argument isn't very good. If supersoft flips town: RedFF could be a scum just trying to defend him for town-cred If supersoft flips scum: RedFF could have been trying to save a scum-buddy, enter WIFOM So what you're saying is redFF is scum no matter how supersoft flips? No? I'm saying that I think he's scum, and if you think he's scum, then flipping supersoft for "information", is stupid. supersoft's flip doesn't tell us anything about redFF. If redFF were town If supersoft flips town: redFF randomly decided to defend someone based on 0 evidence If supersoft flips scum: redFF randomly decided to defend someone based on 0 evidence supersoft's flip tells us nothing about redFF, in my opinion. Lynching for "information" is silly. and after that quickly bad to the mechanics of the game http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=240299¤tpage=43#841http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=240299¤tpage=43#844
This is the closest he came to accusing redFF. when it started to become clear it would be very close between redFF and VE.
On July 20 2011 08:45 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
If we're not lynching traitors, I'm fine with going after redFF.
with other words hes fine with lynching scum if the VE bandwagon fails.
Wiggles is scum.
|
EPT
