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good day all. Catching up on the thread now, some thoughts:
Pyo is on my radar. He was acting scummy and has sense dispersed. VisceraEyes also can be very active when town. So far he is being pretty passive. Would like to see more from him. Now to just single out this post:
On July 18 2011 23:19 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: ##Vote supersoft
Not just one of the Coagulation bandwaggoners but just shady overall.
Palmar already pointed out why this ironic. Of all the people that voted for supersoft, you give the least amount of reasons, and have the least thread presents. Is anyone else on your radar Naz?
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On July 19 2011 06:00 supersoft wrote: curu, you comment everything and provide nothing. do you believe that ketomai read my last games or do you think someone told him about me in the mafiaquicktopic?
I am not sure why you bring mafia quick-topic over and over again.
As for ketomai, it is possible that: (a) he is scum (b) he read your past games (c) someone told him about your old games in PMs.
Given the information we know, all three are equally likely which does not make him more or less likely to be scum than most people in the game.
Nevertheless, he guessed what you would be likely to do pretty well which is intriguing. What is more interesting is that you claimed VT and then said it was a fake claim. Then, you lied about being active in PM-land. This does sound as scummy behavior and your posting does seem inconsistent. Lies and fake claims was what got town messed up in recent games.
These actions do not necessarily make you 100% sum but in the lack of a better alternative at this point, you are currently the best lynch candidate.
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It seems supersoft is trending right now. My only problem with how he's posting is that it rings VERY new player to me. Because of that, my actual scum reads are diminished because they could be attributed just as easily to his newbiness.
I agree with the points made against him so far, but I can't bring myself to vote for him based upon them either. I can see him being newb just as much as I can see him being scum.
Therefor, I'm going to vote for RoL because of his whole 'Champion of the Newbs' post he made against coagulation, because I don't read that out of coagulation's list at all and because sheeping non-productive newbs ARE a problem in the current meta and if I were scum, I'd probably try and use that.
##Vote: RebirthOfLegenD
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*cue ROL quoting my post and following it up with only "herp derp"*
<3
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Talking with supersoft and redFF isn't going to contribute anything else at this point, if you agree (like I do) that supersoft is the best lynch candidate then put down the vote and let's start another path of discussion. Leave your thoughts on them but it's clear no matter how much prodding we do we're not going to get anything else solid out of it today.
Kurumi you've been semi-active about the thread all day and have been reading, why can't you contribute anything today?
Nisani can you give some thoughts besides just parroting what's already been said?
Node, ribboo, CjrNinja have yet to post anything of any note at all. Would love to hear from you when you come on.
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On July 19 2011 06:18 VisceraEyes wrote: It seems supersoft is trending right now. My only problem with how he's posting is that it rings VERY new player to me. Because of that, my actual scum reads are diminished because they could be attributed just as easily to his newbiness.
I agree with the points made against him so far, but I can't bring myself to vote for him based upon them either. I can see him being newb just as much as I can see him being scum.
Therefor, I'm going to vote for RoL because of his whole 'Champion of the Newbs' post he made against coagulation, because I don't read that out of coagulation's list at all and because sheeping non-productive newbs ARE a problem in the current meta and if I were scum, I'd probably try and use that.
##Vote: RebirthOfLegenD supersoft has played a couple of mafia games earlier tho, so he shouldn't be a newbie. he's on my radar, but i'll wait a bit before deciding who to vote for
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On July 19 2011 06:20 Curu wrote: Talking with supersoft and redFF isn't going to contribute anything else at this point, if you agree (like I do) that supersoft is the best lynch candidate then put down the vote and let's start another path of discussion. Leave your thoughts on them but it's clear no matter how much prodding we do we're not going to get anything else solid out of it today.
Kurumi you've been semi-active about the thread all day and have been reading, why can't you contribute anything today?
Nisani can you give some thoughts besides just parroting what's already been said?
Node, ribboo, CjrNinja have yet to post anything of any note at all. Would love to hear from you when you come on.
God I hate players like you. You think you are the greatest scumradar on the whole wide world. But you got nothing. You are going to screw all discussions on day one by tunneling me WAY too much.
Realize that you are not the smartest person on this planet. You are wrong. I am Town and you will see that.
Only because you got the raging noobs on your side and probably the mafia, too you will end up lynching me.
I saw people like you in my games before. They tunnel the wrong guy on day1 just because of one post. Games like this end up in a mess for town. Mafia positions themselves on BOTH sides. The pro-lynch and the contra-lynchside. You will never know who is who. You end up at day1 with 0 information.
Now PLEASE shut the XXXX up and don't comment EVERY SINGLE POST in this goddamn thread with your BULLSXXX. It's impossible to think about anything if an idiot spams up the whole thing with THE SAME accuses against only one person AGAIN and AGAIN.
You have nothing against me. One silly post at the start and that's it. You don't believe I am scum. You just can't admit that you are wrong.
I am not the worst townie in history. I won all my games so far and not because I spammed up the whole thread. I won because I searched for the little mistakes players do and used them to convince the others.
NO mafioso claims VT without a XXXXXXX reason. You think I am that stupid? I am not.
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On July 19 2011 03:57 prplhz wrote:FoS on Lucidity Only two posts with content so far. + Show Spoiler +LinkOn July 19 2011 01:32 Lucidity wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 11:42 ketomai wrote: In my opinion you shouldn't dig around too much into clues unless you have some specific reason to do so. Having everyone being accused a few times because of how clues are twisted will create confusion/chaos, which is never good. I don't really agree with this. Although we can all agree that chaos isn't good for town, you need to look at the possible benefits that the chaos can bring too. In this case, accusing some people a few times to see how they react can give us valuable information - freudian slips, overly defensive scum etc. The chaos should also be minimal if you think about it and only last a few posts. We'll get our info and move on. I think the net result is positive for town. I'm by no means an experienced player - I've only been in about 10 games and I've hosted 2 - but that's been my experience. Pressuring players usually benefits town more. Which brings me to my next point. I think we should be careful of looking at everything in black and white. "Chaos is bad" as above. Each case should be evaluated on its own merits. Policy lynches for example. While it is true that scum try to give away as little information as possible, "Lynch All Lurkers" doesn't really make sense. Every scum player knows that this policy lynch exists and thus they don't lurk. The only people you'll end up lynching with this strategy are bad/lazy/inactive players. That is, bad town or bad scum. Seeing that there are more town than scum players, you're more likely to be lynching a townie t_t Now I'm not saying lurkers should be ignored, but they shouldn't be lynched outright. I've personally been in a game where we won the game on the last day thanks to a lurker who became very active O: Show nested quote +On July 18 2011 13:14 Pyo wrote:On July 18 2011 10:25 Mr. Wiggles wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok, so let's get this started! First things first, let's lay out some things we want to achieve, and some guidelines. A pro-town atmosphereThis normally goes without saying, but it often bears repeating. If we want to catch scum, we need to have the proper environment for scum hunting and for communicating with each other. This means a couple things: - Promoting scum hunting.
- Not having pointless arguments
- Actively contributing
- All that jazz
Basically, we want to keep the thread as clean as possible, because chaos best serves mafia, not town. If you really don't know what to do, there's town guides. I'm not going to write one here, because I'm too lazy, and don't consider myself experienced enough to try. However, I am going to go through the three points above, as I think they are very important. We always want people to scum-hunt. There's never an excuse not to scum-hunt; everyone can do it. This provides us with many benefits. First, it's the primary method for actually finding scum. It also means that people have to give their actual thoughts, and have to come up with things beyond "I agree". This gives us information, and information is good. It lets us know what you're thinking, and it puts pressure on mafia to have to contribute. Also, forcing mafia to scum-hunt means that there's a good chance of catching them just based on their analysis, because it's hard to find people who are scummy, when you know they aren't scum. Next, we want to avoid bickering. This goes hand in hand with keeping the thread clean. This is different from actually debating with people, and you should be able to tell the difference between rationality, and NO U. If anyone is having a pointless argument, they will be asked to stop. It doesn't help town, only mafia. Lastly, we want people to contribute. There's a posting limit of 5 posts per day/night, but that doesn't give you permission to skirt that limit. It's easy for mafia to hide amongst lurkers, and beyond that, lurkers are nearly impossible to analyze. So, contribute. This doesn't mean make tons of pointless one-liners, it means providing actual thoughts, analysis, and content. You can do it, I believe in you. And if you don't, we can always just ask a vig to shoot you. We don't want people to lurk. CluesThere's clues in this game. However, all clue analysis MUST MUST MUST be backed up by post analysis. Before you post the clue analysis too. The reason for this, is that clues will most likely point to all kills. this means that some of the clues are going to point to vigs, some will point to third parties, and the others will point to mafia. Accidentally outing a vig because you solved the clues about them is bad. So, if you think someone's attached to a clue, go back and re-read their posts. If you think they look scummy, then post an analysis that contains the clue analysis. If you think they're town, just hold onto your analysis. Clue-analysis should always be used to supplement an actual behavioural analysis. It should never be the main point for calling someone scummy. In other words: Clues pointing towards a person does not equal scum. Third PartiesLooking at the third parties, here's what we want: -We want Joker to die. -We want Batman to kill Joker. -This means that Batman wins, and should hopefully be removed from the game, also removing Ra’as Al Ghul who can no longer achieve his victory condition. This is the optimal way the third party part of the game will go. We want Batman to kill Joker before Ra'as can kill Batman, so that we don't have to deal with Joker ourselves. So, if you think someone's acting like an SK, don't be afraid to point it out, as this should help Batman achieve his win-con, and let us get on with the rest of the game. If Joker is lynched, is Batman removed from the game? If Batman is removed from the game, is Ra'as removed from the game?Thoughts? Disagreements? Let's get this rolling. On July 18 2011 12:39 CreamyButter wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 18 2011 10:37 Curu wrote:
CreamyButter, a question for you if I may. Taking the setup into consideration, how would you propose to play as Mafia this game if you were indeed to receive such a role? Ummm. Well. First order of business is of course ensuring that all mafia members are actively contributing to the thread. For the newer players, I might consider giving them a talking point, or else assigning one mafia to make an inconsequential "slip" in the thread, so that the less experienced mafia members can analyze properly without feeling guilty and without actually slipping up. I would pick the newest players and make sure they know what they're doing, basically, and if not I would help them compose their posts before they post them. After all mafia members are actively posting, I would try to shift the demographic being targeted in the thread to something less dangerous, such as lynching all lurkers. Also, since there seems to be a zodiac/veteran list going up, I would make sure to elect a figurehead boss, so that the boss doesn't end up on the list. From there, use PMs to harass/poke people and figure out what roles they have/infiltrate their circles >.> Avoid hitting vets, figure out where the hatter's bombs are before killing them, hit medics, boring stuff etc. I would be actively PMing, to make sure the town doesn't get up to anything worthwhile. Possibly coordinate PMs with other mafia members. A priority is reaching out to the insane inmates, and integrating them into the mafia circle. With no rolechecker, though, I'm not sure how mafia would do this. I guess they would get the DT to check on someone who isn't in the known mafia circle, and if the DT claims that he's seeing red, then the guy being checked is probably insane because no 3rd party would set themselves as red. For this reason I might consider not killing DTs right away as long as he's being properly manipulated. Batman is useless because he can't claim and he can't reveal his findings, though. From what I can tell, it is in mafia's best interest to get the 3rd parties lynched. The 3rd parties might randomly kill a mafia member at night, and might eat up night hits, and it is impossible to cooperate with them since they can't claim. I guess I would just leave random hints everywhere that someone (someone who isn't mafia) is Batman and hope he dies. As a 3rd party player: It seems to be in Joker's best interest for the game to end as quickly as possible, so he would keep mafia alive at first, so that their KP is higher. Batman and Ra'as, on the other hand, want to keep the game running longer, so that they have time to hunt. As Batman I would default to rolechecking, and killing only when either confirmed or if one side seems like it's winning. As Ra'as I would target lurkers/useless seeming people until I get a read. There seems to be enough vigilante advice, so maybe it's time to stop with that. As for DT advice though, On July 18 2011 11:32 notasmurf wrote:
It's not who the veteran players are that we should be concerned about. It's who the new players are. These are the people that we should focus our DT check on, and take a closer look during scumhunting. By no means am I saying we should lynch new players instead of old ones. Obviously we need to lynch the best person possible. But what I'm saying is that they tend to get overlooked.
I agree that DTs should check the newer, more easy ignorable players, instead of the vets. Since as a DT you can only trust a red reading, there's no way to try and build a circle around yourself. It would also be much easier to get a newer, inactive, partially illiterate player lynched than an old one. So check people that you think yourself capable of actually getting lynched i guess. I have to study/class, will be back later today. I don't really know how to give/identify good analysis, but I'm fully open to being tested/asked stupid questions to see if I screw up, so feel free to send me PMs. I might be a "newb" but from my limited experience, pretty much every time someone comes out with one of these massive long policy spam posts, they've been scum. Just sayin' Haha, so true Oo It's almost as if scum try too hard to appear pro-town by posting generic guides. Care to comment CreamyButter? Only on page 20, but posting so long. A post full of nothing. Talking about how to play the game in very general terms "some chaos is good if done right", "lurkers might be town". Neglects that Mr. Wiggles kinda wrote that post in the beginning when there was absolutely nothing else to talk about, and that CreamyButter was responding to a question directed at him, and wasn't even posting "town guide". No original content, and also somewhat self contradictory in that he complains about town guides yet his post contains a lot about what is/might be/may just happen to prove useful to town in some scenarios, in very vague terms. + Show Spoiler +LinkOn July 19 2011 03:00 Lucidity wrote:Amg caught up to page 27. So tired now. Some thoughts: First of all, what's with all the mass one liner spam? kenpachi, redFF, Coag etc (Can't recall the other names right now, but can't be arsed to reread all that shit right this moment D: ). All of these are at the top of my suspect list so far. Wrt VT claims. What's the big deal? Mig in particular is harping on about it pretty aggressively. His A,B,C analysis contains massive flaws too. (I can expand on these if needed, but don't think it necessary) The fact is that everyone in the game is implicitly saying that they're VT (At least for Day 1). Blues are trying to come across as VT. Scum are trying to come across as VT. 3rd parties are doing the same damn thing. VTs too! Claiming VT is an absolute null-tell in my opinion. Whether you write it out or not is irrelevant. The fact that mig is going after them so much is a little worrying to me. I'm not sure if it's just bad logic on his part or scum painting at this point. (Strangely though, it seems as if this whole forum accepts it as being a scum tell?) Lastly, supersoft is almost asking to be lynched. I have no problem with his VT claim, but rather the way he reacted to being told he's acting scummy. I don't have much more to add at the moment that hasn't already been said about supersoft. Interesting post? Won't vote for someone simply because he wants a PM buddy? Woah there. Also relates to my previous 2 paragraphs. As for the Coag list: Don't see why it was scummy. Personally (as a newb) it gave me some info on who the vets are (assuming the list was accurate). I'll be sure to hold them to a higher standard Not convinced that anyone is scum yet, so no vote. Complaining about one-liner posters that's already been complained about. Huge rant about how it doesn't matter if people spam the thread up with VT claims while he knows that VT claims are useless. If they're useless then why do you think it's okay for people to spam the thread with them? Semi-jumps on the biggest bandwagon in this game but does not provide any original content or reasons at all. Overall he's also playing noob cards. So, Lucidity, who, besides supersoft, would you throw your vote at if you had to vote right now?
A post full of nothing
I might have gotten a little too much in to the theory, but there is a fundamental difference between my post and Mr Wiggles' (Which you claim is identical and makes me a hypocrite). If you look closely you'll see that my post was a reply to ketomai's suggestion that we shouldn't accuse some people due to clues. I disagreed and posted my reasoning for disagreeing (The "useless" theory). I think it's a topic worth discussing for when clues are found on Day2. Putting on pressure is always good. Mr Wiggles' post on the other hand is a general "Guide" post with strategies such as "We should take out the SKs". I don't see the similarity. Furthermore, there are much better ways to start off the day than posting a guide with info everyone already knows. In my experience people who write long guides on page 1 are often scum who try too hard to look pro-town.
Complaining about things that have already been mentioned
I'm not sure what the problem is here. I came to the thread late. Of course I will make observations later. Would you prefer that I not post if someone else has already observed something similar?
VT "rant"
Why do you call it a rant? I disagree with the opinion that it's a scum tell. Everyone in this thread seems to agree that it's an obvious scum-tell. So I gave my reasoning for why it's not a scum tell. I don't think it should be used in deciding who we should lynch today. Would you prefer that I simply say, "It's not a scum-tell" and not elaborate as to why?
To answer your question: "If they're useless then why do you think it's okay for people to spam the thread with them?" - Because they're useless. And it was hardly spammed in this thread.
It also makes me suspicious of mig as he's punting the theory rather aggressively by explaining why it is a tell - while his explanation doesn't add up.
Jumping on the supersoft bandwagon
It's hardly a bandwagon. He is basically asking to be lynched. I agree that I didn't add anything new, but there was nothing new to add. It's basically all been discussed.
Playing noob cards
I wasn't aware that I was doing that. If you're referring to where I mention that I've played 10 games and hosted 2, that's hardly a noob card. I was simply explaining the context of my observations. Read: "This shouldn't be taken as fact, but from the observations in my previous games... this and that." This is especially from the 2 games I hosted (Highly recommended ;p). Scum seem to squirm incredibly fast, even when they know better.
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This turned into a longer post than I intended, but I hope my previous posts have been clarified. I admit that I was tired after a long day and then reading all the pages in one go. My posts were quite lazy. Hopefully they make more sense now. (And seriously stop with the VT scum-tell spam t_t)
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Who would I lynch other than supersoft?
I feel I need to mention that at this point I'm not ready to lynch supersoft. I'm not convinced that he's scum as opposed to a bad townie yet. I need to reread the thread.
If I had to vote at this moment it'd be for redFF. He spammed the thread with inconsequential one-liners up to where supersoft came under fire. He then started making beefy posts to defend him. It's interesting that he only seemed to take interest in the game at that point. Possibly defending his scum buddy. I might be remembering the thread details incorrectly though. I need to reread the thread. I'll do so tomorrow and post an analysis. At the moment I am too tired.
Do you still think RebirthOfLegend is the best place your vote could be? And why?
PS. Was your use of hyperbole throughout the post by design or is that simply your posting style?
PPS. Took me like 40 mins to write this post while doing other things. inb4ninjas.
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Bumatlarge is replacing sinani206
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You're taking this a bit too personally supersoft. Calm down and contribute something before you die instead of flailing around with your rage. Remember as Townie if you die and give a lot of information in the process, it's a net gain overall. If you do something really productive then hey, maybe you won't die!
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On July 19 2011 06:59 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
Bumatlarge is replacing sinani206
THE BATMAN HIMSELF
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On July 19 2011 06:45 supersoft wrote: Only because you got the raging noobs on your side and probably the mafia, too you will end up lynching me.
I saw people like you in my games before. They tunnel the wrong guy on day1 just because of one post. Games like this end up in a mess for town. Mafia positions themselves on BOTH sides. The pro-lynch and the contra-lynchside. You will never know who is who. You end up at day1 with 0 information.
Feel free to ignore Curu.
Supersoft, the reasons people are accusing you are multiple, and no it's not only raging noobs and mafia who think you're scum.
1. You claimed vanilla townie and bandwagoned some random lynch. MiG explained to you why claiming vanilla town is never a good idea if you're town.
2. You lied about being active in pm land, when the only person you had actually talked with was MiG.
3. You did not commit to any of the suspicions you had, in fact you made a post pointing out that you were NOT calling them scum.
4. You keep contradicting yourself, you say you've seen this happen before, you say you've played a few games, well if that's the case, you should realize the things you were doing were not in the town's best interest, no?
Again, you claim to be good at this game, why can't you see that you've obviously dug yourself a hole? The best way out of it is not to fucking rage, but to actually explain why you're not scum, and then move on to find us a better lynch target.
You're not the only person in this game that has screwed up, but you're currently the one who has fucked the most up.
Shape up, stop the emotion, play the game.
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That angry post makes him look a bit more townish in my eyes, though not exactly the kind you'd want to have around later on. Please provide other reasons for not lynching you, because it's going to be incredibly difficult to get over you lying and role claiming out of the blue.
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Justice has come!
Give me about a week to read through everything. i kid just 72 hours.
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I think prplhz is mafia. ##vote prplhz
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Curu:
In the future, I think you need to calm it down a bit as well. I get what your motive is to being so aggressive, but to be honest, extracting information with a presumed incriminating tone like that will yield far less than subtle prodding. It's one thing to openly investigate someone who is already established as suspicious in the thread (supersoft), but investigating someone at random or off of weak hunches/analysis repeatedly just muddles up the thread and causes confusion within the town. If you are going to do that, only do it on people you are actually suspecting or leave that style of investigation to pms and then post them later if it yields something interesting.
On the subject of supersoft: Yea, he's obviously going to be lynched today, but again, it's not necessary to repeat all of the same accusations as he mentioned. If something you are arguing appears to be agreed on in a landslide with pretty irrefutable evidence relative to the other evidence (i.e. all of supersofts PM mishaps), then maintaining the aggressive tone all of the time, even when it's obviously not needed, can only bode badly for you. If he flips mafia, then you would be in the clear, however if he flips townie (as limited information day 1 lynches are), then you will have problems later.
In summary, it'd be nice if you post less and follow up on more solid leads rather than firing off random accusations fishing for a slip up. The bottomline is I want the town to be productive and clutter free.
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On July 19 2011 07:25 Kenpachi wrote: I think prplhz is mafia. ##vote prplhz
Can we have some reasons ?
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On July 19 2011 07:25 bumatlarge wrote:Justice has come! Give me about a week to read through everything. i kid just 72 hours. No no no get out ;((((((((((((( I am using my phone to post so go figure
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I'm at work but it looks like the best candidate is supersoft. The biggest reasoning is simple. You lord. You lied and now you're not really doing much to prove the nay sayers wrong.
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On July 19 2011 06:45 supersoft wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2011 06:20 Curu wrote: Talking with supersoft and redFF isn't going to contribute anything else at this point, if you agree (like I do) that supersoft is the best lynch candidate then put down the vote and let's start another path of discussion. Leave your thoughts on them but it's clear no matter how much prodding we do we're not going to get anything else solid out of it today.
Kurumi you've been semi-active about the thread all day and have been reading, why can't you contribute anything today?
Nisani can you give some thoughts besides just parroting what's already been said?
Node, ribboo, CjrNinja have yet to post anything of any note at all. Would love to hear from you when you come on. God I hate players like you. You think you are the greatest scumradar on the whole wide world. But you got nothing. You are going to screw all discussions on day one by tunneling me WAY too much. Realize that you are not the smartest person on this planet. You are wrong. I am Town and you will see that. Only because you got the raging noobs on your side and probably the mafia, too you will end up lynching me. I saw people like you in my games before. They tunnel the wrong guy on day1 just because of one post. Games like this end up in a mess for town. Mafia positions themselves on BOTH sides. The pro-lynch and the contra-lynchside. You will never know who is who. You end up at day1 with 0 information. Now PLEASE shut the XXXX up and don't comment EVERY SINGLE POST in this goddamn thread with your BULLSXXX. It's impossible to think about anything if an idiot spams up the whole thing with THE SAME accuses against only one person AGAIN and AGAIN. You have nothing against me. One silly post at the start and that's it. You don't believe I am scum. You just can't admit that you are wrong. I am not the worst townie in history. I won all my games so far and not because I spammed up the whole thread. I won because I searched for the little mistakes players do and used them to convince the others. NO mafioso claims VT without a XXXXXXX reason. You think I am that stupid? I am not. As others here have said, play nice, please, both of you.
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