just got a pm with an invite
this would be my first mafia ever but I will try my best.
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Treadmill
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just got a pm with an invite this would be my first mafia ever but I will try my best. | ||
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Jimbooo, we do have to lynch somebody. Being "hasty" isn't really a concern. And somebody with next to no evidence against them is a better lynch than everyone else with no evidence against them at all. Still, 48 hours yet. | ||
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A few thoughts: There are 8 mafia but do we know how much killing power they have? If 6 normally get 3 kills/night would it be sensible to extrapolate that 8 get 4? | ||
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On June 05 2011 15:24 omgCRAZY wrote: That is true. I have only looked over one other Mafia game so I don't have a lot of experience if players vote and unvote a lot over the course of a day or not, after the few responses we got from Freelancer265 I did do an EBWOP saying how his subsequent responses added to his suspicion. Either this should be linked in the first few posts or people should start saying what their acronyms mean when they first use them. They only make things faster if they're understood. And yeah - freeloader's first post was only mildly suspicious (although it was mildly suspicious) but his subsequent ones were rather more so. Also, he's probably still online and they're currently the best we have to go on. So I'm gonna vote but change in the next 24 hours or so if someone more suspicious comes up. I suspect that most of the mafia are gonna be trying to lay low, post only "check-in" posts and whatnot. So keep your eyes peeled for that sort of thing - although, early on, that kinda posting might just mean its midnight and people want to go to bed (so gtsrs and 35spike1 are off the hook for now). | ||
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On June 05 2011 15:36 iGrok wrote: Those people who have already voted are acting too hastily. Is it really too hasty if you plan on (probably) changing your vote? I'm honestly asking. Also, you sound like you're aomewhat experienced, is that right? | ||
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On June 05 2011 18:31 Kurumi wrote: Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 18:28 Sprungjeezy wrote: Kurumi, you come off as a towny that is reading too far into too little. It's important to remember that this game is full of beginners and important to remember people will try to take advantage of that, but people will still make mistakes such as hopping on a bandwagon without really thinking into it. Time for bed for me though. Cya tomorrow. No. Scum wants Town to mislynch. Scum wants Town not to think about other suspects. Scum wants to make Town jump on one bandwagon and deny EVERY discussion about anything else. They are doing that,not only but they're advocating that as a good thing. With regards to the Freeloader situation: a. read the posts. I wasn't advocating mislynching. Lafali, admittedly, somewhat was: On June 05 2011 15:16 Lafali wrote: Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 15:09 omgCRAZY wrote: With this being a newbies game I wouldn't be surprised that someone wants to get a handle on the game. What I find interesting is how aprudds was so quick to get everyones attention focused on someone else and how the game has barely started and yet cherubael and Jimboo are already throwing out votes. His subsequent posts were fishy. Due to that I hopped on the voting bandwagon along with them. Its a 40 player game, I'm sure we can afford a few mislynches. Regardless, we should continue scumhunting. We do have 48 hours. b. As far as "not thinking about other suspects" there WERE no other suspects, this was page one and noone else seemed remotely scummy. c. there wasn't discussion about anything else and nobody was stopping anybody from talking about anything. So freeloader got accused on questionable evidence, and then defended himself in a somewhat suspicious fashion. So a couple of noobies (myself included) voted for him early on. And the Kurumi comes in and makes up shit about what we're doing that has only a grain of truth in it, and treats myself and Lafali (who both voted for freeloader) as proven scum based on 2 and 4 posts (or so). Then, later, Vain posts + Show Spoiler + On June 06 2011 00:26 Vain wrote: On June 06 2011 00:07 Kurumi wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 00:01 aprudds wrote: On June 05 2011 23:20 Kurumi wrote: By the most scummy player I meant Your suspicion. An example of good post would be an analysis pointing out the biggest slips of player X leading Town in a Scum lynch.Remember though: there's nothing wrong about being wrong(unless You're redtooth,then You commit suicide on Day 3) A good post could be summing up who attacked who and who defended who + Your thoughts about it. Everything that generates discussion is good. You must remember though,that without good evidence there's probably no point in bringing something new,because this will cause chaos. Pyo,it is too fast for scum to bus too. Freeloader's situation is really uncertain. His small,but bandwagon is based on shitty evidence. "He asked a question,no townie would ask it!" Think for a second. What would happen if Freeloader was scum? Someone would pm him and tell him everything he needed to know,makes sense? Hell yes. We aren't that vindictive,don't worry <3 But there are players who are magnets,namely Radfield and Kavdragon,who like to die Day/Night 1. Kurumi, you're talking for the sake of talking and stirring up too many accusations without any discussion or analysis. Talk is good, blind accusations are bad. This makes chaos and makes it hard to focus on one thing at a time. (AGAIN) There isn't much to go on right now. Here's what happened: 1 guy asked a dumb question. Scum Scale: *---- 3 guys bandwaggonned. Scum Scale: **--- 2-3 people throw around un-called-for accusations. Scum Scale: ***-- Oh, and Pyo called you out on being an ass. If you are an experienced player like you say, you should know that rapidly throwing out multiple low impact accusations just lead to you getting ignored or lynched :/ @Pyo You need somewhere to get a discussion started. The accusation was arbitrary, but it's the best thing there was after the roles got pmed and before the game started. After everyone starts posting their mind on this there will be a greater pool of posts to look over. My dumbness meter went over 9000. Before saying "HURR DURR YOU DID NOTHING" read my posts. I brought evidence why I think they're scum. On June 05 2011 18:07 Kurumi wrote: Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 13:47 Treadmill wrote: It is a good spot, aprudds. We should keep an eye on freeloader625. Jimbooo, we do have to lynch somebody. Being "hasty" isn't really a concern. And somebody with next to no evidence against them is a better lynch than everyone else with no evidence against them at all. Still, 48 hours yet. What? Bad lynches are good lynches? Are You a stupid Rat or You're a Noobtown? Lynch is the most IMPORTANT tool town gets. ##vote Treadmill He was actually saying that some evidence for a lynch was better as a random lynch with no suspicion. now i would like to see your compelling evidence and accusations because frankly i have only seen you throwing out accusations and calling people noobtown. pointing out that Kurumi's being silly so Kurumi replies with On June 06 2011 00:27 Kurumi wrote: @Vain Let aprudds defend himself. which is dumb because a. nobody was talking about aprudds - his only relation was that he had been suspicious of freeloader (presumably Kurumi meant me or Lafali, but why conflate us?). And b. an argument is an argument, no matter who it comes from. Either Kurumi is paranoid or he's scum defending scum, trying to derail any argument against freeloader. I'm leaning towards the former, because apparently he has a history of being like this, but a DT should check him out tonight. Leaving my vote on freeloader 'cause there's noone with a better case against them. That doesn't speak to strength of the case against freeloader but rather to the weakness of any other case. (not voting Kurumi 'cause if he is scum, then freeloader probably is too). | ||
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On June 05 2011 18:07 Kurumi wrote: Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 13:47 Treadmill wrote: It is a good spot, aprudds. We should keep an eye on freeloader625. Jimbooo, we do have to lynch somebody. Being "hasty" isn't really a concern. And somebody with next to no evidence against them is a better lynch than everyone else with no evidence against them at all. Still, 48 hours yet. What? Bad lynches are good lynches? Are You a stupid Rat or You're a Noobtown? Lynch is the most IMPORTANT tool town gets. ##vote Treadmill On June 06 2011 05:54 Kurumi wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 05:52 supersoft wrote: On June 06 2011 05:37 Kurumi wrote: On June 06 2011 05:33 supersoft wrote: On June 06 2011 01:32 TheAwesomeAll wrote: DeMorcef thanks a lot, how do you check it? or do you just remember? + Show Spoiler + 1. Munk-E 2. blackone amazingxkcd 6. teamsolid 8. Alderan 10. Drazerk has voted but not posted 15. TranceStorm 18. monsterDrakar 21. supersoft 23. Xedat 24. grush57 25. Date_Reaper 26. CjrNinja 33. Clicker 34. Kairo 36. gtrsrs 38. tdAdonis 40. GGQ UPDATED LIST plz ignore the previous one, credits to morcerf <3 this list doesn't tell anything about the people on the list... Maybe they're just lurking like I was. You can delete me from that list btw. This post can be treated like it never happened,You know? What are Your thoughts on freeloader bandwagon? Who's Your scum suspect #1? I don't have a scum suspect on day1. It's too early to judge anyone. It's just not reasonable to randomlynch someone in the first round, before we got to know each other a little bit. We can't no lynch. There needs to be a lynch every Day. o.O? | ||
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On June 06 2011 09:02 grush57 wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 08:42 omgCRAZY wrote: As the day goes on we will separate the lurkers from the inactives and that is when we will be able to start to piece together how everyone is playing. I am more interested in the people NOT talking than all of the people pointing fingers right now. Says the person with only 1 post so far? Crazy actually has a couple of posts from last night. Use the profile button. Check post history. You both are saying a whole lot of nothing (although, there isn't really much to say this early). | ||
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On June 06 2011 11:41 Aril wrote: Heya, I don't think I'll be on tomorrow so I'm voting now. Care to explain your vote at all? | ||
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@CjrNinja Can you confirm that the role PM for mafia members spells out that mafia can communicate by PM? If this is true than obviously mafia wouldn't post that question and I'll change my vote from freeloader. Otherwise, though, he seems even more scummy to me now. I didn't vote for him cause he asked a silly question, it was how he replied to scrutiny. Since then, he hasn't posted in the thread at all. And I can confirm that he's been on TL - check his post history, he's posted a whole bunch in today's MLG live report. Either he's scum and waiting for suspicion to die down or he's town and has given up and resigned himself to getting lynched. | ||
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On June 06 2011 12:54 CjrNinja wrote: I can't confirm what the actual role PM said for mafia members. But looking back through this thread I did find: Show nested quote + On May 30 2011 01:33 Varpulis wrote: On May 30 2011 00:34 blackone wrote: On May 29 2011 06:47 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: PMs PMs are not allowed in this game. This confuses me because from the other Mafia threads I read I feel that PMs are a pretty important part of the game. In particular, how is the scum supposed to operate without PMs? To clarify: The no PMs rule does not apply to scum. They are still allowed to communicate outside of the thread. Town aligned and third party roles must keep everything inside the thread, however, for the sake of balance and to keep the game fun for everybody. So it's already been addressed during the signup stage. Freeloader was probably just lazy and didn't read through the entire thread. Hrrrm. That doesn't stop him from being lazy mafia. If mafia members received the info about being allowed to PM in their role PM, then only town wouldn't definitely know that and so only a town would ask. BUT if the information is not explicit in the role PMs, then town and mafia could equally easily not know (and not read fully the OP) and so someone asking could still be either. Does that make sense? I guess the only people who'd know for certain which it is would be the mafia (who won't show us their role PM to prove it) and the mods (who won't say cause it'd affect the game). Doesn't escape the fact that freeloader, who has been in the lead to be lynched, has been online without posting here at all. Which makes me suspicious. | ||
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that was @CjrNinja | ||
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Okay, fair enough. I'll unvote freeloader for now. A bunch of other names have come up, with better or worse cases against them Here's what I think: Jimbooo - seems more inexperienced than scum. I think that's the consensus so let's focus on other people. cherubael - I do not understand people's suspicion of him (literally don't understand. If you're voting him, please explain why). Kairo voted for him but even seemed confused in his post: + Show Spoiler + On June 06 2011 09:56 Kairo wrote: FL625s berhaviour is slightly suspicious, but I find the behaviour of cherubael to be more suspicious. His posts have been reeking of bloodlust, and he have been throwing accusations around like they were candy. Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 14:39 cherubael wrote: On June 05 2011 14:06 freeloader625 wrote: On June 05 2011 14:03 Jimbooo wrote: On June 05 2011 14:02 freeloader625 wrote: On June 05 2011 13:49 cherubael wrote: On June 05 2011 13:35 aprudds wrote: On June 05 2011 12:44 freeloader625 wrote: Omg I'm so excited for this. I read all the rules twice and just want to ask to anyone willing to answer (before the game starts) since these were not answered in the thread rules: 1) Since PMs are not allowed, how would mafia communicate with each other? 2) Once someone dies whether it be by votes or mafia hit, will their roles be revealed? Thanks and GL everyone! (I've only played SC2 Mafia before and got hooked) Hmm, a bit suspicious no? Right when the PM are getting sent out too. Scum slip? A bit of a bold accusation, I would say. However, I do have to agree, the first question does look a bit suspicious. After all, a townie would have *no* reason to ask such a question, as they can't PM anyway. Oh but a townie does have reasons to ask such a question. Don't take my SC2 Mafia as lack of experience, I was able to deduce roles within the 50seconds given. :D What reason does a townie have to ask such a question? All I can say is, all too often the first one to speak is "put on trial." Sleep on it. So...you asked a question so you could be lynched day one...alright...that makes sense. (note the sarcasm) Either you give a legitimate, straight reason to ask this sort of question as townie, or you clearly are just trying to save your butt after having messed and shown your role as mafia. Also, Aril, you seem to be very quick in defending him, while not wanting to accuse anyone. Are you afraid your role will be too obvious if you accuse someone? Also, what reason do you have to defend him? What has he done for you? The only reason would be because you are both mafia, and you are trying to look out for him. ----- But then again, he might just be a bit eager... Also: Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 15:09 omgCRAZY wrote: With this being a newbies game I wouldn't be surprised that someone wants to get a handle on the game. What I find interesting is how aprudds was so quick to get everyones attention focused on someone else and how the game has barely started and yet cherubael and Jimboo are already throwing out votes. I also agree on Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 15:36 iGrok wrote: He has plenty of reasons to be a townie. Don't even think about that kind of McCarthy Bullshit this early in the game. Anyone voting this early deserves some measure of suspicion. ------ from another post Regarding discussion: Freeloader is probably not scum. He is new and likely inexperienced. However, just to be sure, a cop needs to check him tonight. Which reminds me: This is nowhere near waterproof, but I feel that I have nowhere better to put a vote at this time. Since it is likely that FL625 is the one that will get lynched today, we will get a flip. If he flips mafia I will conclude that cherubael is most likely non-mafia (a.k.a townie in this game, since it does not have third party roles); but if he flips townie (more likely imo) I will still view cherubael as highly suspicious. On a sidenote: This game is mind-bending. I am too chicken to suggest that people change their vote from FL to cherubael, since it still is most likely that FL gets lynched, and there is a realistic chance that FL flips mafia. And if I had suggested that, it would paint a huge red cross on my back. And also by writing this, pointing out that I am afraid of death when the ideal mafia mindset is to be fearless of death for the benefit of the team can be considered as scummy. Gaah. If it is revealed afterwards that all mafia is lurking and that we are just a clueless chicken coop I will have to kick myself in the back. TheAwesomeAll - I don't really understand the case against him either. He posted a list of lurkers. Yay. But he also addressed the only thing that had been discussed up until then (freeloader). I don't think its fair to say someone's trying to post while avoiding talking substantively when there's not really any substance to talk about anyways. amazingxkcd - the case against him is mostly this post: On June 06 2011 02:56 amazingxkcd wrote: It is quite clear that it can be seen who are the main talkers for both side. The only question is now how to distinguish between the two sides and how to act upon it which is admittedly - weird. Reposting the "newbie guides" was in response to a question by rookie44. I want to see more of his posts and how he votes, to get a better sense of him. Lafali - saying "its OK to mislynch" could be scummy or it could be his honest opinion. Without knowing any playing history I don't think its possible to tell. grush57 - he has a better case against him than most others. Saying On June 06 2011 04:12 grush57 wrote: Im not inactive, I just dont feel like anybody can accuse this early. and then joining the fl625 bandwagon and saying On June 06 2011 04:21 grush57 wrote: Yea true, I stupidly joined the bandwagon to lynch freeloader from his posts. seems more than a bit weird. Also he hasn't really offered his opinion on anything - those two posts are literally all that he said on freeloader despite voting for him. Alderan made a decent case a little while ago. _________________________________________________ I'm not sorry for "bandwagonning" freeloader early on 'cause we got some discussion going and got people posting (which is always good for the town). And I still think there's a decent case against him. Two people I think need to talk more are Benjef who voted, then changed his vote, then made one post about it without really saying anything, and Aril, who voted Kurumi and only said On June 06 2011 11:41 Aril wrote: Heya, I don't think I'll be on tomorrow so I'm voting now. by way of explanation. | ||
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First off, its a big long post showing he's been paying attention to the thread. But he doesn't address anything except the arguments against him. That, in my mind, is the biggest strike against him - if he was town, he'd be concerned with more than just his own survival, he'd want to find out who the mafia are. If he was a good town player he'd talk about some of the other accusations, some of the other discussions - especially since he's indicated that he's been following the thread. And also because, if you look at the last few pages, he hasn't been suspect number one for a while. Second, freeloader625 sounds like he's trying really hard to sound unconcerned about the allegations against him. That doesn't jive with writing a big post that has no purpose other than defending himself. He's trying to defend himself without sounding like he's defending himself (mostly by jumping on DeMorcerf's and CjrNinja's explanations without really providing his own) - a scummy play for sure. What do I honestly think and why haven't I really commented even though I threw myself under the bus? I'll give a longer explanation come closer to Day 1's end. Har har har, another "bad defensive" post by me :D Take it as you may. I take it as meaning: freeloader625, you are scum. So I'm gonna put that vote I just took off of you back on. | ||
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I'd tend to agree with the points that omgCrazy made with regards to gtsrs - iGrok. Laying out how many possible blues there are isn't fishing for blues by any stretch of the imagination. gtsrs looks a little scummy - though he could just be dumb. They could both be town, or it could be iGrok town and gtsrs mafia, I don't see it the other way around. The one little worry I have is that BOTH might be mafia and pulling a total mental mindfuck on us. Lastly: + Show Spoiler + On June 06 2011 17:45 gtrsrs wrote: freeloader is obvious town but everyone is bandwagoning on him we need to get some votes on other people. it's a psychological thing. if you see that everyone has voted for freeloader you're going to vote for him too so you don't look fishy. if there are some votes spread around you're more likely to vote for someone you think is actually mafia i initially FoS'd iGrok because of the haiku thing and his horribly pretentious posts. i felt like they were derailing the thread and i didn't have a good read on anyone else after he tried to incriminate kurumi who is being extremely pro-town, i double my suspicions that iGrok is the mafia we want. he's trying to use pretty formatting to make it look like his wild guess is better than anyone else's wild guess - he's intentionally trying to mislead the town. i got a lucky guess and FoS'd the right guy, it's quite clear. don't believe me? help me pressure him and watch him crack fishing for blues is scummy, he's setting a bad example. i don't see how public knowledge of how many blues there (could be) are could ever help the town. he's doing the mafia's job for them, right in front of our eyes. i don't have a personal vendetta by any means. in fact, you'll notice it's he who is trying to minimize me in the eyes of the other townies by pointing out that i'm not "experienced" on TL mafia, and blatantly calling my posts bad. A. Why is freeloader obviously town? You throw that out there without any back-up. I admit (and have admitted) that myself and a few others were very hasty and did bandwagon him early on - because of inexperience. But there's been nothing since to exonerate him. B. Your argument against iGrok is "vote for him and he'll drop scumtells". Which is stupid - he's an experienced player, that's not gonna happen. C. You haven't actually addressed any of his arguments about Kurumi, you've just said "he's a good guy, trust me I know, and since iGrok fingered him iGrok must be scum!" | ||
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I just woke up, and am reading the thread (that explains my recent inactivity). I'm reading the thread and will have something to post once I'm done. | ||
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Now, what if by some miracle, Youngminii was lynched and flipped green, or worse, vigilante? What would that have said about Foolishness? Think hard and carefully here, because this is a logic issue that really has plagued the town in so many TL games, especially this one. At its core is the question: what does "lynching for information" actually mean? The lynch outcome alone would have said nothing about Foolishness! If Foolishness is veteran, how does he have any definite knowledge of what Youngminii is? He doesn't, therefore he can only do his best and try to figure out YM's role from the tools he has. That in itself does not distinguish him from Godfather Foolishness one bit. The key distinction between the two is to look at how he got Youngminii lynched and his overall play, not that he got Youngminii lynched. The latter fact, while not entirely irrelevant, is nowhere near sufficient enough on its own to warrant a lynch (and everyone knows if YM had popped up vigi Foolishness would've been autokilled the next day). Thus it would be nonsensical to lynch YM because you think it will give the most information (the information is next to useless). The only reason to lynch YM, or virtually anyone ever, is to kill mafia. That's it. There's a lot of wrong-headed thinking going around this game and I want to try and address some of it. A. as the quote above says, if Mr X accuses Mr Y and Mr Y is lynched and flips town, it doesn't say anything about Mr X. He could be mafia, or he could've made an honest mistake and be town. B. related to [A], look at the content of people's arguments, not just who they're accusing! If someone accuses someone else with a decent explanation, than even if you disagree with his arguments he probably isn't mafia. It's more suspicious if the reasoning is crappy, though even then you may have misunderstood the reasons or the accuser may be a newbie or a moron. C. if someone changes their mind, they could be mafia. Or they could've just changed their mind. Again, read their posts. Look for their reasoning - and it could make sense to the poster even if it doesn't to you. People need to start reading posts more, and listening to peoples arguments rather than making their own (I'm as guilty as anyone on that). The town loses if we're all paranoid and flaming each other. | ||
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On June 07 2011 06:03 Jackal58 wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 05:56 Alderan wrote: On June 07 2011 05:47 TranceStorm wrote: On June 07 2011 05:38 Jackal58 wrote: You guys want to vote for scum? Vote this guy - rookie44: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9611408 Has played before so he has an idea how it works. Very subtle in his fishing for blues. Only scum fish for blues. Wants to know what methods and tactics are used to catch scum. Wants us to share them with everybody. Claims it will help derail scum tactics. When it will obviously do the opposite. Has all but disappeared since this post. I'm sure he'll show up momentarily to tell me how full of shit I am. That's where my vote is going. I would recommend you all do the same. Would you mind doing a post-by-post analysis of rookie44's posts? (There are only 3) Right now I can't really see how subtly he is fishing for blues. After all, we don't know how experienced he really is, so I would like a little more clarification as to your accusation. Wait so you're saying instead of voting for new players being dumb you suggest us to vote for a player who has never played before on the forums (admittedly so) for suggesting that veteran players toss out potential strategies? Sure it's a LITTLE scummy, but until I see some elaboration on your "very subtle in fishing for blues" I'm going to have to disagree with you. You his scum buddy? Oh god dammit Jackal, don't even start there. Don't accuse someone of being scum just because he disagrees with you. I do too, for that matter. Until we hear more from rookie44, see how (and when) he votes, there really isn't enough to say (well, imo). | ||
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I didn't want to out him cause if I'm right I painted a big, fat target on his back. But there's all of a sudden a bandwagon building on him, and with how spread out our votes are the mafia will be able to easily swing a lynch. | ||
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On June 07 2011 06:01 Jackal58 wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 05:47 TranceStorm wrote: On June 07 2011 05:38 Jackal58 wrote: You guys want to vote for scum? Vote this guy - rookie44: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9611408 Has played before so he has an idea how it works. Very subtle in his fishing for blues. Only scum fish for blues. Wants to know what methods and tactics are used to catch scum. Wants us to share them with everybody. Claims it will help derail scum tactics. When it will obviously do the opposite. Has all but disappeared since this post. I'm sure he'll show up momentarily to tell me how full of shit I am. That's where my vote is going. I would recommend you all do the same. Would you mind doing a post-by-post analysis of rookie44's posts? (There are only 3) Right now I can't really see how subtly he is fishing for blues. After all, we don't know how experienced he really is, so I would like a little more clarification as to your accusation. We'll start with the post I linked: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 04:22 rookie44 wrote: Hey guys, This is all getting a bit out of hand, we seem to already be getting in each others faces over perceived (and real) sleights. I have only played mafia on battle.net, and this is going to be quite a different game to that. Only real difference is timing. Tactics are the same What i believe is the crucial difference is that we have large amounts of time for discussion. This also gives us the time to create a solid plan for using whatever roles we have effectively (it would seem that way). This is role fishing. He's wanting people to post their roles and tell him how they intend to use them. At the very least he's hoping a noob would post something along the lines of I'm a DT. Who should I check Maybe some of the more experienced players could expand on what investigative stratagies they have used; their pitfalls, and how we may evade those pitfalls. This is saying "I am scum. How are you guys going to catch me? It's called a scum slip Perhaps an added benifit will be that it will be very tricky for a mafia to come up with a generalized stratagy that is grounded in reason, so maybe there will be some suspiciously quiet people. (I assume it will be difficult for a generalized stratagy becasue i can only see the mafia being able to take advantage of a specific stratagy by getting their peolpe in the right places). This is just bullshit trying to provide a townie reason for asking. My analysis in red. This guy is scum. Point by point: 1. Irrelevant. And battle.net mafia is EXTREMELY different from this. 2. No, he isn't asking people to post their roles. He's asking what people think good strategy for blues would be - which is a reasonable question from town and even more sensible for a blue poster. 3. Alternately, he's honestly a newbie asking experienced players what they think we should be doing. 4. Or, he's giving his reason, as a townie, for asking. The "analysis" is bullshit. This is bandwagonning at its WORST. | ||
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On June 07 2011 08:56 Impervious wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 08:51 Treadmill wrote: I absolutely don't buy the "hunting for blues" nonsense on rookie44. I don't see at all how what he's been saying could lead to blues revealing themselves - one of the people voting for him should lay out the case a bit better. On June 07 2011 06:01 Jackal58 wrote: On June 07 2011 05:47 TranceStorm wrote: On June 07 2011 05:38 Jackal58 wrote: You guys want to vote for scum? Vote this guy - rookie44: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9611408 Has played before so he has an idea how it works. Very subtle in his fishing for blues. Only scum fish for blues. Wants to know what methods and tactics are used to catch scum. Wants us to share them with everybody. Claims it will help derail scum tactics. When it will obviously do the opposite. Has all but disappeared since this post. I'm sure he'll show up momentarily to tell me how full of shit I am. That's where my vote is going. I would recommend you all do the same. Would you mind doing a post-by-post analysis of rookie44's posts? (There are only 3) Right now I can't really see how subtly he is fishing for blues. After all, we don't know how experienced he really is, so I would like a little more clarification as to your accusation. We'll start with the post I linked: On June 06 2011 04:22 rookie44 wrote: Hey guys, This is all getting a bit out of hand, we seem to already be getting in each others faces over perceived (and real) sleights. I have only played mafia on battle.net, and this is going to be quite a different game to that. Only real difference is timing. Tactics are the same What i believe is the crucial difference is that we have large amounts of time for discussion. This also gives us the time to create a solid plan for using whatever roles we have effectively (it would seem that way). This is role fishing. He's wanting people to post their roles and tell him how they intend to use them. At the very least he's hoping a noob would post something along the lines of I'm a DT. Who should I check Maybe some of the more experienced players could expand on what investigative stratagies they have used; their pitfalls, and how we may evade those pitfalls. This is saying "I am scum. How are you guys going to catch me? It's called a scum slip Perhaps an added benifit will be that it will be very tricky for a mafia to come up with a generalized stratagy that is grounded in reason, so maybe there will be some suspiciously quiet people. (I assume it will be difficult for a generalized stratagy becasue i can only see the mafia being able to take advantage of a specific stratagy by getting their peolpe in the right places). This is just bullshit trying to provide a townie reason for asking. My analysis in red. This guy is scum. Point by point: 1. Irrelevant. And battle.net mafia is EXTREMELY different from this. 2. No, he isn't asking people to post their roles. He's asking what people think good strategy for blues would be - which is a reasonable question from town and even more sensible for a blue poster. 3. Alternately, he's honestly a newbie asking experienced players what they think we should be doing. 4. Or, he's giving his reason, as a townie, for asking. The "analysis" is bullshit. This is bandwagonning at its WORST. If this was a day 2 or later lynch, I'd expect something more convincing. But it's not. If you have a better idea, I'd like to hear it. Almost anyone else would be a better idea. I'm just bothered that wll of a sudden a bunch of people (xkcd, Kurumi, Senj) are jumping on voting for a guy, a handful of hours before the lynch. Especially considering: Senj is a lurker who's posted the bare minimum to be considered active amazingxkcd who's posted a whole lot of nothing - his only contributions have been posting one-liners about why other people's ideas are bad Kurumi - who's been posting a lot, and insanely aggressively, and accusing everyone flat-out of being scum, but when he decides who to vote for he posts a chort and uncertain post wihtout really explaining. It just seems like the analysis is a lot worse on this case than it has been on a bunch of others - but a couple people started voting for him and set a bandwagon rolling. As for scummiest posts, I still haven't seen anything to top this: On June 06 2011 14:21 freeloader625 wrote: It's true. I spent most of the weekend watching MLG, both streams. I was keeping an eye on this for all mirror matches though, I just chose not to comment. Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 12:54 CjrNinja wrote: I can't confirm what the actual role PM said for mafia members. But looking back through this thread I did find: On May 30 2011 01:33 Varpulis wrote: On May 30 2011 00:34 blackone wrote: On May 29 2011 06:47 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: PMs PMs are not allowed in this game. This confuses me because from the other Mafia threads I read I feel that PMs are a pretty important part of the game. In particular, how is the scum supposed to operate without PMs? To clarify: The no PMs rule does not apply to scum. They are still allowed to communicate outside of the thread. Town aligned and third party roles must keep everything inside the thread, however, for the sake of balance and to keep the game fun for everybody. So it's already been addressed during the signup stage. Freeloader was probably just lazy and didn't read through the entire thread. Yes, I'm ashamed to admit I let pages 2-8 or 9 go without reading it, I assumed it was all just full of "/in's." I only read the first post and posts since the game has officially started. Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 13:17 DeMorcerf wrote: On June 06 2011 12:47 Treadmill wrote: + Show Spoiler + One really big point - if you're going to quote a really long post it'd be great if you could put it in spoiler tags (just a formatting issue but helps to clean up the page a fair bit). Meaning you, iGrok. @CjrNinja Can you confirm that the role PM for mafia members spells out that mafia can communicate by PM? If this is true than obviously mafia wouldn't post that question and I'll change my vote from freeloader. Otherwise, though, he seems even more scummy to me now. I didn't vote for him cause he asked a silly question, it was how he replied to scrutiny. Or he simply cannot extract himself from the excitement that is MLG, I know I couldn't for most of this weekend. I think that the reasoning that has come forth from some of the experienced players should convince us to leave freeloader for now and concentrate on others --- I agree with Alderan's suspicions of Amazingxkcd (posts that just repeat the description of the game) and Grush57 (confusing contradictions) and the strange hasty back and forth behavior of Jimboo pointed out by TranceStorm. On June 06 2011 11:43 redFF wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 06 2011 11:23 GMarshal wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 11:18 iGrok wrote: On June 06 2011 11:13 aprudds wrote: On June 06 2011 11:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: On June 06 2011 10:32 iGrok wrote: On June 06 2011 10:28 Pyo wrote: woah there: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=16#309 I thought post editing wasn't allowed. Mod Check Please I didn't catch it in time to see the original. I think flamewheel can see this sort of thing so I'll ask him. Because this is a noobies game I'll let you go with just a warning but the next time ANYONE does this they die, no exceptions. You've been warned I already reported it and the mod told me it was a typo fix. Lets get one thing clear here - do not Report anything to TL mods that isn't a direct violation of the TL Commandments (excluding spam - spam is legal here). We police ourselves, and only call in the authorities when we need them. Report to the Mod of your game, or Qatol if you have a problem with Mod. This. We self moderate. For the love of god, don't use the report button in this subforum. qft -___________- I quote this to point of that redFF's only post in the game is just this one-liner spam. Perhaps he is too busy in his other mafia game to contribute something more useful to his post, but then he should have waited until he had more time to post. Ohhh dirtay! I didn't not realize outside posts were fair game for this! I was under the impression (initially) that you can't click on ppls profiles/outside posts to avoid cheating or w/e. But I guess that's fair game. What do I honestly think and why haven't I really commented even though I threw myself under the bus? I'll give a longer explanation come closer to Day 1's end. Har har har, another "bad defensive" post by me :D Take it as you may. | ||
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On June 07 2011 06:28 Kurumi wrote: ##unvote ##vote: Rookie44 On June 07 2011 06:29 Senj wrote: ##vote: Rookie44 [B]On June 07 2011 06:31 amazingxkcd wrote: ##VOTE: Rookie44 Look at the time stamps, within 3 minutes of each other. And none of them posted for 2 hours previous to bandwagonning rookie. It looks liek co-ordination. | ||
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On June 07 2011 10:13 Impervious wrote: Ok, I thought it through looking at a variety of different situations, and I believe that we need to push for a lynch of one of those 3, rather than rookie. Why? Because, it's likely that all 3 (or 2 of them) are mafia, based on the timing (and assuming that rookie is town and we have 2 or so vigis in the game). When that one flips, here's the outcomes: Scum - We get vigis to hit one or both of the others overnight. Early knockdown to 3KP for the mafia. Town - We get a vigi to hit rookie as an insurance policy for switching (although we can argue the merit of this move overnight, and should rookie turn out to be red, Treadmill would be a decent policy lynch tomorrow because of how hard he's been defending). So, if we're going to hit one of them, we need to pick the scummiest one, in case it's a freak accident that they all voted at the same time like that. And we've gotta do it quick (I'm gone in ~1 hr). Basically, if we switch - in the worst case scenario we give our vigis a good target tonight, and best case, we hit 2 or 3 mafia. Pretty damn good first lynch/night imo. Now, I asked myself "have they been acting in the best interest of the town?", and the one that really stood out as a "no" was xkcd, so I'd agree with a switch to him right now. So, I'm changing my vote. ##Vote: amazingxkcd I've been defending rookie really hard 'cause I think he's being railroaded and that the lynch of him is an attempt to distract. But okay, I agree with your logic - hit one of those three and see. | ||
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I don;t think that jackal is scum, I think that he believes he has a case against rookie44. I'm not totally convinced on those three but considering that there're are already suspicions about Kurumi and amazingxkcd and that Senj has been a lurker it looks really suspicious. | ||
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On June 07 2011 10:35 Impervious wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 10:16 iGrok wrote: On June 07 2011 10:13 Impervious wrote: Ok, I thought it through looking at a variety of different situations, and I believe that we need to push for a lynch of one of those 3, rather than rookie. Why? Because, it's likely that all 3 (or 2 of them) are mafia, based on the timing (and assuming that rookie is town and we have 2 or so vigis in the game). When that one flips, here's the outcomes: Scum - We get vigis to hit one or both of the others overnight. Early knockdown to 3KP for the mafia. Town - We get a vigi to hit rookie as an insurance policy for switching (although we can argue the merit of this move overnight, and should rookie turn out to be red, Treadmill would be a decent policy lynch tomorrow because of how hard he's been defending). So, if we're going to hit one of them, we need to pick the scummiest one, in case it's a freak accident that they all voted at the same time like that. And we've gotta do it quick (I'm gone in ~1 hr). Basically, if we switch - in the worst case scenario we give our vigis a good target tonight, and best case, we hit 2 or 3 mafia. Pretty damn good first lynch/night imo. Now, I asked myself "have they been acting in the best interest of the town?", and the one that really stood out as a "no" was xkcd, so I'd agree with a switch to him right now. So, I'm changing my vote. ##Vote: amazingxkcd which 3? Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 09:35 Treadmill wrote: Another interesting point: Jackal58 makes his case against rookie44, it's pretty weak, the people posting aren't convinced. Nobody but him votes for rookie44. Then an hour later On June 07 2011 06:28 Kurumi wrote: ##unvote ##vote: Rookie44 On June 07 2011 06:29 Senj wrote: ##vote: Rookie44 On June 07 2011 06:31 amazingxkcd wrote: ##VOTE: Rookie44 Look at the time stamps, within 3 minutes of each other. And none of them posted for 2 hours previous to bandwagonning rookie. It looks liek co-ordination. I was in the middle of writing up something a little more in depth on why I chose xkcd, but my "1 hr" has turned into "5 minutes". I've switched my vote, and I hope some others do the same. It's not that I think rookie is a bad lynch, it's just that I think this lynch will give us more info, and if I'm wrong, we got rid of a really negative townie (which can end up derailing us in the later stages of the game). PS, if they all show up as town, as does Treadmill, then you guys HAVE to lynch me. Not doing so would be completely suicidal..... No. No, no, no. I'll let [b]Ver make this point for me: Now, what if by some miracle, Youngminii was lynched and flipped green, or worse, vigilante? What would that have said about Foolishness? Think hard and carefully here, because this is a logic issue that really has plagued the town in so many TL games, especially this one. At its core is the question: what does "lynching for information" actually mean? The lynch outcome alone would have said nothing about Foolishness! If Foolishness is veteran, how does he have any definite knowledge of what Youngminii is? He doesn't, therefore he can only do his best and try to figure out YM's role from the tools he has. That in itself does not distinguish him from Godfather Foolishness one bit. The key distinction between the two is to look at how he got Youngminii lynched and his overall play, not that he got Youngminii lynched. The latter fact, while not entirely irrelevant, is nowhere near sufficient enough on its own to warrant a lynch (and everyone knows if YM had popped up vigi Foolishness would've been autokilled the next day). Thus it would be nonsensical to lynch YM because you think it will give the most information (the information is next to useless). The only reason to lynch YM, or virtually anyone ever, is to kill mafia. That's it. Thats from his Mafia XXX Analysis, which is definitely worth a read. | ||
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On June 07 2011 06:34 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 06:16 Alderan wrote: On June 07 2011 06:03 Jackal58 wrote: On June 07 2011 05:56 Alderan wrote: On June 07 2011 05:47 TranceStorm wrote: On June 07 2011 05:38 Jackal58 wrote: You guys want to vote for scum? Vote this guy - rookie44: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9611408 Has played before so he has an idea how it works. Very subtle in his fishing for blues. Only scum fish for blues. Wants to know what methods and tactics are used to catch scum. Wants us to share them with everybody. Claims it will help derail scum tactics. When it will obviously do the opposite. Has all but disappeared since this post. I'm sure he'll show up momentarily to tell me how full of shit I am. That's where my vote is going. I would recommend you all do the same. Would you mind doing a post-by-post analysis of rookie44's posts? (There are only 3) Right now I can't really see how subtly he is fishing for blues. After all, we don't know how experienced he really is, so I would like a little more clarification as to your accusation. Wait so you're saying instead of voting for new players being dumb you suggest us to vote for a player who has never played before on the forums (admittedly so) for suggesting that veteran players toss out potential strategies? Sure it's a LITTLE scummy, but until I see some elaboration on your "very subtle in fishing for blues" I'm going to have to disagree with you. You his scum buddy? Just pointing out that I think your analysis is just as weak or weaker than all the others. Let's see how he responds. You seem to be in a position to defend rookie44 when he has made quite a lot of scummy posts, particularly trying to take advantage of noobs to slip up their roles with Show nested quote + What i believe is the crucial difference is that we have large amounts of time for discussion. This also gives us the time to create a solid plan for using whatever roles we have effectively (it would seem that way). Also, notices how already from the start of the game, he is asking for roles and wanted to lynch Treadmill without any sound proof besides making a suggestion about the freeloader wagon being loaded with mafias Show nested quote + Would it be a legitimate stratagy if we lynched treadmill with the thought that he and some other mafia got overzealous with voting for freeloader? Here, he is making assumptions about what the mafia should do, which is trying to divert attention away from him. Show nested quote + It seems like if someone got a role in the mafia then they would be more anxious to start the game, and would be much more active in the very beginning. This is a mafia game for less experienced players so maybe that means there will be some metagame mistakes? for these reasons and the ones given by jackal58 as well as kurumi, i am voting for Rookie44 on the basis of clear scummy post and trying to divert attention away from himself with circular logic ##Vote: Rookie44 also alderan, I am very suspicious of you for trying to defend this guy. Elaborate as to why you think he is not a scum. And this, here, is amazingxkcd's analysis of rookie44. There's the line about "trying to divert attention away from himself" when rookie's post was waaay before there WAS any attention on him. Also, the point about "asking for roles" is bullshit - he was asking what we thought blues should do, which is very different. Also, Alderan basically says "rookie seems little scummy but I'm not convinced" and xkcd starts attacking him. That and the co-ordinated timing of the votes (which is enough evidence by itself, for me), and earlier stuff posted by Alderan. Also this stupid rookie bandwagon. amazingxkcd looks very very red. | ||
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Hey look! rookie44 was a blue! What a surprise! I'm gonna point out that I totally called that. But not to brag - if I saw it, someone in the mafia probably suspected him of being blue too. In fact it's a little more obvious to them cause they could rule out rookie being red. So i'm even more convinced that the mafia managed to swing that lynch. I'm pretty comfortable saying that Senj, amazingxkcd, and Kurumi are mafia. To a more experienced player (iGrok or Vain preferably) what would you think of out vigi's shooting at them tonight? I'm maybe 80 or 90% sure, but I'd want someone with more experience to comment. | ||
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On June 07 2011 13:18 Lafali wrote: ##Vote Rookie44 So sorry if I was late, I was out tonight. which increases my suspicion that rookie's lynch was scum-motivated. | ||
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On June 07 2011 13:49 iGrok wrote: Jackal's push to lynch rookie came out of fucking nowhere, and gathered way too much steam. I thought about reasons why he would do that, and one possible reason is that he was drawing attention from freeloader. I'm not certain of course, but it would be a good play, particularly if Jackal is the Godfather and was worried about losing KP due to inactivity & the lynch. Oh, and I'm sure there are arrows missing, those are just the ones I could remember off the top of my head. I'm not convinced that Jackal is scum. He advocated for Rookie's lynch, yes, but all day one everyone was advocated to lynch a different person. What I suspect is that the mafia saw it and jumped on it as an opportunity, about an hour later: On June 07 2011 09:35 Treadmill wrote: Another interesting point: Jackal58 makes his case against rookie44, it's pretty weak, the people posting aren't convinced. Nobody but him votes for rookie44. Then an hour later Look at the time stamps, within 3 minutes of each other. And none of them posted for 2 hours previous to bandwagonning rookie. It looks liek co-ordination. when [b]Senj, amazingxkcd, and Kurumi all vote for rookie at the same time. It's the main reason I think all three are scum. On June 07 2011 14:00 iGrok wrote: One thing I notice now is that Treadmill has the most arrows. Treadmill, you are an interesting person... Everything he's done has been in the right. Everything. When it was unpopular, he stood by his ideas. He's defended those he felt were wrongly accused, and and accused those he felt were guilty. IMO, Treadmill is Town. Aww, <3. | ||
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On June 07 2011 14:24 GGQ wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 14:18 Treadmill wrote: On June 07 2011 13:49 iGrok wrote: Jackal's push to lynch rookie came out of fucking nowhere, and gathered way too much steam. I thought about reasons why he would do that, and one possible reason is that he was drawing attention from freeloader. I'm not certain of course, but it would be a good play, particularly if Jackal is the Godfather and was worried about losing KP due to inactivity & the lynch. Oh, and I'm sure there are arrows missing, those are just the ones I could remember off the top of my head. I'm not convinced that Jackal is scum. He advocated for Rookie's lynch, yes, but all day one everyone was advocated to lynch a different person. What I suspect is that the mafia saw it and jumped on it as an opportunity, about an hour later: On June 07 2011 09:35 Treadmill wrote: Another interesting point: Jackal58 makes his case against rookie44, it's pretty weak, the people posting aren't convinced. Nobody but him votes for rookie44. Then an hour later On June 07 2011 06:28 Kurumi wrote: ##unvote ##vote: Rookie44 On June 07 2011 06:29 Senj wrote: ##vote: Rookie44 On June 07 2011 06:31 amazingxkcd wrote: ##VOTE: Rookie44 Look at the time stamps, within 3 minutes of each other. And none of them posted for 2 hours previous to bandwagonning rookie. It looks liek co-ordination. when [b]Senj, amazingxkcd, and Kurumi all vote for rookie at the same time. It's the main reason I think all three are scum. On June 07 2011 14:00 iGrok wrote: One thing I notice now is that Treadmill has the most arrows. Treadmill, you are an interesting person... Everything he's done has been in the right. Everything. When it was unpopular, he stood by his ideas. He's defended those he felt were wrongly accused, and and accused those he felt were guilty. IMO, Treadmill is Town. Aww, <3. You haven't addressed what I said about Kurumi attack lafali almost immediately in the day. Why would he do that if they are both mafia? You're right, sorry, I meant to address that one - it is the sticking point. I can see a mafia player accusing other mafia just to screw with people's heads, though, and Kumuri does seem to be likely to play like that. Also, he voted for Lafali, mentioned him once, and then started attacking everyone else. It would've been interesting to see what Kurumi would've done had Lafali ever been in any danger at all of being lynched but he wasn't, so voting for him remained "safe". It's one piece of evidence for him compared to quite a bit against (see iGrok's massive post). I'm most comfortable on amazingxkcd but I do think we should watch Kurumi to see how he posts. I don't think a DT would be that helpful at this point, cause assuming that a more experienced player was chosen as GF its probably Kurumi (or maybe gtsrs but I'm only suspicious of him, there's adecent chance he's town). In short, yes Kurumi voted for Lafali but considering his playstyle he seems likely to screw with us like that were he mafia. Also Lafali was never indanger of being lynched. | ||
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*first game ever for me *read Ver's mafia XXX analysis and that game quite a bit *looked at a couple other games but not much - mostly PYP/PTP games | ||
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The overall theme with those two is that they weren't at the front of the arguing - they offered their unadorned opinions, and they looked into players on their own, but they never pushed hard for anyone's lynch or innocence. On reflection they were likely blues - which is probably the reason they were targeted. Luckily for us, neither of them were blue. DeMorcerf's posts are primarily a defence of iGrok and support for his supicion of Drazerk. He also has a couple posts asking questions to the mods, and a number more criticizing lousy arguments and generally appealing for less haste. He also pointed out tdAdonis' lurking He voted Drazerk. GGQ had a fair bit more posts, but like DeMorcerf he didn't get into any big arguments or do a lot of analysis. He also largely criticized lousy arguments and pointed out their holes. He was one of the first people to be suspicious of amazingxkcd and he was also supicious of Drazerk, Jimbooo, and Vain. He voted for Jimbooo. *He also posted an argument about iGrok but too late for it to have affected the mafias choices (like 1 min before the night 1 post). Because I think that they were hit cause they seemed blue, I don't think its worth reading too much into their posts. This might be helpful to someone else so I'm gonna post it anyways. But, please, don't say that [eg] "Jimbooo is scum cause GGQ accused him and got killed". I'm pretty confidant that they were hit for being suspected blues. If the mafia wanted to protect themselves/cause chaos/whatever, there are more obvious targets for them. | ||
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On June 08 2011 13:26 Pyo wrote: Yay!!! I'm alive - wasn't expecting that. Too bad about GGQ, I guess they wanted to take out experienced town. The other hit has me surprised. I'll have to go through his posts and try to figure it out. So they hit our vet? Or we have another medic who happened to protect the right person. I disagree with Treadmill. If you were medic saved or vet, DO NOT SAY ANYTHING!!!! Keep them guessing whether you are the vet or whether we have a third medic. Town doesn't need to know that information only mafia would want you to reveal yourself. Treadmill just outed himself as scum. Bullshit. The mafia already know who the third target was. That person coming forward doesn't say anything about whether he was saved by being a vet or by a medic (in fact, its a good point, Pyo, to emphasize that whoever got shot shouldn't say anything on the matter). I just think town knowing what the mafia knows is a good thing. | ||
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it's day 2 we get a lynch and I think we've got an obvious target amazingxkcd A few others and I already suspected amazingxkcd of being mafia yesterday. The case certainly wasn't perfect, but there was enough for six of us to vote for him and a number of others to be suspicious. And so I took the time today and went and had a look. That's right, it's analysis time. Here's what I found, with all 31 of xkcd's posts: POST NUMBER ONE On June 06 2011 02:56 amazingxkcd wrote: It is quite clear that it can be seen who are the main talkers for both side. The only question is now how to distinguish between the two sides and how to act upon it The first thing to notice is that xkcd isn't naming names. Instead he begins with the more vague "It is quite clear". A number of themes emerge from reading xkcd's posts and the first is that he is very wishy-washy. He avoids naming other players quite a bit and also avoids directly giving an opinion on the action. This post simply doesn't say anything. "The only question" that he gives is basically a restatement of the premise of the game. + Show Spoiler + As a short aside, as Alderan pointed out this first post comes just after TheAwesomeAll posts a list of inactives. Alderan thought this was fairly important, but I'd tend to disagree - a townie would want to avoid being modkilled as much as scum would. I don't count this as evidence for or against xkcd. POST NUMBER TWO On June 06 2011 03:38 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 03:21 Alderan wrote: On June 06 2011 02:56 amazingxkcd wrote: It is quite clear that it can be seen who are the main talkers for both side. The only question is now how to distinguish between the two sides and how to act upon it It is posts like this (especially for your first post) that we are trying to avoid. All you did in this post was state the premise of the game, and make a likely incorrect assumption that there are mafia among the "main talkers" this early in the game. Very very scummy post. interesting first post there, all ready trying to set up accustation upon me for supposedly making a scummy post when in reality i am only simply making observation. You already got into my list of suspicious people by derailing a innocent first post when we still have around 30+ hours left to figure out each other. Alderan very quickly calls out xkcd for making a useless post. xkcd responds with... another useless post. Once again xkcd doesn't comment on any of the happenings in th thread, he doesn't engage with any of the other conversations that having been started. Instead he immediately gets defensive about Alderan's fairly benign accusation. Here we see the beginnings of another theme for xkcd - ignoring the content of other peoples accusations, and "straw-mannning" their arguments. This becomes more clearly a theme later. I also want to point out the phrasing "interesting first post". You see, I have friends in community theatre. I have to go see their shows. Sometimes they suck. When they do, and I'm asked what I think, I say "interesting". Its a delightfully wishy-washy word. Perfect, in this instance, for calling somebody scummy without actually calling them scummy. Not in the least damning, but it fits the theme. POST NUMBER THREE On June 06 2011 04:16 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 04:12 grush57 wrote: Im not inactive, I just dont feel like anybody can accuse this early. But why did you vote for someone already? You provide no evidence, no stance, and your first post is stating something that can be interpreted as quite misleading. Post number three and xkcd still hasn't given an opinion on anything. He makes a fairly obvious comment on grush57 and never revisits it. POST NUMBER FOUR On June 06 2011 04:28 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 04:22 rookie44 wrote: Hey guys, This is all getting a bit out of hand, we seem to already be getting in each others faces over perceived (and real) sleights. I have only played mafia on battle.net, and this is going to be quite a different game to that. What i believe is the crucial difference is that we have large amounts of time for discussion. This also gives us the time to create a solid plan for using whatever roles we have effectively (it would seem that way). Maybe some of the more experienced players could expand on what investigative stratagies they have used; their pitfalls, and how we may evade those pitfalls. Perhaps an added benifit will be that it will be very tricky for a mafia to come up with a generalized stratagy that is grounded in reason, so maybe there will be some suspiciously quiet people. (I assume it will be difficult for a generalized stratagy becasue i can only see the mafia being able to take advantage of a specific stratagy by getting their peolpe in the right places). Please refer to these guides on playing TL mafia. For town: aidnai, GMarshal For mafia: bumatlarge, chaos13 LSB's Newbie Guide Mafiascum Newbie Guide Introduction to Mafia (Flash) Ver's town guide Ace's Mafia Manifesto Qatol's Town Guide Hey look! xkcd read the OP! Fourth post, and still nothing of substance. The only point to make here is that xkcd is apparently following the thread reasonably well, enough to provide a somewhat useful response to [blue]rookie44[blue]'s question. POST NUMBER FIVE On June 06 2011 22:52 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 21:57 iGrok wrote: Hey Jackal, good to see you again. Mind going over my Kurumi analysis? As his post concerning kurumi 's behavior had helped, i am concerned with this statement. iGrok has listed a couple of seasoned players whom he reconizes for their experiences, but here he is already jumping to the conclusion that he had no reason to suspect them, especially jackal whom only made a post spectulating. It seems to be that iGrok is quite convinced that kurumi is a scum as he already asked for a dt check rather than trust the dts to make the right decisions. About jackal, i do not know much about him as he has not stated a lot yet, but iGrok is showing us that he is in league with jackal as from the podt above. As of now, i do not want to label iGrok as scum, and i'd rather wait until later to see what jackal says and how the game flows, but iGrok is still suspicious. If iGrok is convicted as scum, then that puts pressure on jackal to respond. We've reached his fifth post, and at last xkcd has given his opinion on something.... sort of. Well, he seems to be saying that iGrok and Jackal are somehow in league with one another. And are scum. Because if they were both mafia, iGrok would obviously ask for Jackal's opinion... in the thread. Its not exactly great thinking. He's still incredibly wishy-washy about it. Also, for the most part his post still doesn't really say anything - the second paragraph is entirely without content, and his fourth casting aspersions without making accusations. Again there is that odd wording - "iGrok is still suspicious" rather than the more direct "I am suspicious of iGrok". POST NUMBER SIX On June 07 2011 00:15 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 10:47 Alderan wrote: Here's a list of a couple people who seem to be acting a little scummy. (Not saying for sure scum, just people that might not be) Lets get some meaningful conversation going. Amazingxkcd I've already kind of voiced this opinion but I'm going to expound upon my earlier analysis. Let's look at his posts. It is quite clear that it can be seen who are the main talkers for both side. The only question is now how to distinguish between the two sides and how to act upon it This post, obviously vague, of little help to the town, and posted directly after he appeared on TheAwesomeAll's “Lurker List”. When I pointed out this was a fishy post he responded with this: interesting first post there, all ready trying to set up accustation upon me for supposedly making a scummy post when in reality i am only simply making observation. You already got into my list of suspicious people by derailing a innocent first post when we still have around 30+ hours left to figure out each other. Obviously immediately went on the defensive, turned and pointed a finger at me, and suggest that the town take its time “figuring each other out” instead of having discussion that is inherently pro-town. In fact his only “contribution” to town discussion was this post: Please refer to these guides on playing TL mafia. For town: aidnai, GMarshal For mafia: bumatlarge, chaos13 LSB's Newbie Guide Mafiascum Newbie Guide Introduction to Mafia (Flash) Ver's town guide Ace's Mafia Manifesto Qatol's Town Guide So his only contribution to the town is copying and pasting something that is in the third post of this thread? Interesting. Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 23:10 Alderan wrote: Also, I'm going to ahead and voting for amazingxkcd, just in case something happens to me at work today and I won't be able to get a vote in. @ amazingkcd, I'm really just waiting on you to refute the analysis I did earlier. You are discriminating against me and you just voted for me right now just off the basis of my first post, which i made after i finished watching MLG. You do not provide evidence that i am a scum nor do you back it up should you have given any evidence. It seems that you want me to be lynched when i am trying to win for the town. @iGrok and @Jackal58; I can't analyze Kurumi either, since i take that he's acting as if he has multiple personalities disorder. He should be watched for sure. Also, @Jackal58, you stated that he had the same behavior in the previous games you played with him, what were his roles? That should at least help to give us a direction on him. I am not trying to label you two as complete scum, but i was just concerned about iGrok's request for help from Jackal58. About freeloader, I am currently leaning towards the scummy side as for the reasons others have put up front already, but i need more time to see if i do want to lynch him. There are others here who seem suspicious based on their posts and the tone of their post, but i am not ready right now to make a final desicion. I really love the line You do not provide evidence that i am a scum nor do you back it up should you have given any evidence "You don't have any proof... and even if you had proof your proof isn't any good!" It's kinda lol. In fact the wording of his defence (the first paragraph) is very strange. "You are discriminating against me". Yes, Alderan is racist against amazing people. Or something. Also I wonder why he felt the need to add "i am trying to win for the town" at the end. All in all he gets very defensive here, without really having anything to say in his defence. In the rest of this post he finally responds to some of the other discussions that are happening in the thread. By which I mean he finds a fancy way of saying that he doesn;t have an opinion on anything. He says that freeloader is "leaning towards the scummy side". And calls others "suspicious based on their posts and the tone of their post" but doesn't give any names (as in his first post). Then we come to Kurumi (or, perhaps, Kurumi). xkcd has an interesting relationship with Kurumi. There'll be more detail on that down the line - for now, xkcd mentions specifically that Kurumi is difficult to analyze, and is acting kinda crazy. There are two other sentences that stand out, "I can't analyze Kurumi either" - didn't iGrok just do a massive piece of analysis on Kurumi and come out leaning scum? Also, "I am not trying to label you two as complete scum" - are there degrees of scum? POST NUMBER SEVEN On June 07 2011 00:20 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 00:17 Xedat wrote: Kursiv are the guys that voted but then unvoted and have not voted again. Non voters: 1. Munk-E 2. blackone 4. amazingxkcd 11. Jimbooo 13. Lafali 16. Heist 20. TheAwesomeAll 24. grush57 25. Date_Reaper 26. CjrNinja 28. Senj 29. DeMorcerf 30. Vain 32. Jackal58 33. Clicker 37. iGrok 38. tdAdonis 39. aprudds 40. GGQ Are you trying to say that this list are people who attempted to vote yet, cause the wording of your statement is quite ambiguous. I will vote when i have determined who is the most likely candidate, but i have never voted yet from what i have understood your post as. A post that again says nothing. POST NUMBER EIGHT On June 07 2011 00:21 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 00:19 Jackal58 wrote: On June 07 2011 00:15 amazingxkcd wrote: On June 06 2011 10:47 Alderan wrote: Here's a list of a couple people who seem to be acting a little scummy. (Not saying for sure scum, just people that might not be) Lets get some meaningful conversation going. Amazingxkcd I've already kind of voiced this opinion but I'm going to expound upon my earlier analysis. Let's look at his posts. It is quite clear that it can be seen who are the main talkers for both side. The only question is now how to distinguish between the two sides and how to act upon it This post, obviously vague, of little help to the town, and posted directly after he appeared on TheAwesomeAll's “Lurker List”. When I pointed out this was a fishy post he responded with this: interesting first post there, all ready trying to set up accustation upon me for supposedly making a scummy post when in reality i am only simply making observation. You already got into my list of suspicious people by derailing a innocent first post when we still have around 30+ hours left to figure out each other. Obviously immediately went on the defensive, turned and pointed a finger at me, and suggest that the town take its time “figuring each other out” instead of having discussion that is inherently pro-town. In fact his only “contribution” to town discussion was this post: Please refer to these guides on playing TL mafia. For town: aidnai, GMarshal For mafia: bumatlarge, chaos13 LSB's Newbie Guide Mafiascum Newbie Guide Introduction to Mafia (Flash) Ver's town guide Ace's Mafia Manifesto Qatol's Town Guide So his only contribution to the town is copying and pasting something that is in the third post of this thread? Interesting. On June 06 2011 23:10 Alderan wrote: Also, I'm going to ahead and voting for amazingxkcd, just in case something happens to me at work today and I won't be able to get a vote in. @ amazingkcd, I'm really just waiting on you to refute the analysis I did earlier. You are discriminating against me and you just voted for me right now just off the basis of my first post, which i made after i finished watching MLG. You do not provide evidence that i am a scum nor do you back it up should you have given any evidence. It seems that you want me to be lynched when i am trying to win for the town. @iGrok and @Jackal58; I can't analyze Kurumi either, since i take that he's acting as if he has multiple personalities disorder. He should be watched for sure. Also, @Jackal58, you stated that he had the same behavior in the previous games you played with him, what were his roles? That should at least help to give us a direction on him. I am not trying to label you two as complete scum, but i was just concerned about iGrok's request for help from Jackal58. About freeloader, I am currently leaning towards the scummy side as for the reasons others have put up front already, but i need more time to see if i do want to lynch him. There are others here who seem suspicious based on their posts and the tone of their post, but i am not ready right now to make a final desicion. Kurumi was town in XXXIX. Lynched day one for posting nonsensically for the first half of the day. He has improved significantly from that game believe it or not. He is also still playing in PTP mafia and is a self proclaimed SK. Thank you for your clarification. Another contentless post. A more notable lack of content, actually - xkcd specifcally asked what Kurumi's role had been to help town figure Kurumi out. He finds the answer to his question.... and draws no inferences from it. Considers the consequences not one bit. So why was he asking? POST NUMBER NINE On June 07 2011 03:06 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 02:53 iGrok wrote: On June 07 2011 02:43 Vain wrote: On June 07 2011 02:31 iGrok wrote: On June 07 2011 02:11 Vain wrote: Ok, i finally finished reading. Man, sleeping is bad for keeping up with a mafia game. First off: Kurumi is probably town if he also spammed this much in a previous game where he was scum. I don't know his style very good but he is drawing way too much attention to be a comfortable mafia. I don't quite understand this. So Kurumi is probably town because he's acting the same way he did when he was mafia before? Euh, i meant town. Jackal stated that when he was town he's just as hard to analyze. Iirc he was not scum the other games Jackal played with him. + Show Spoiler + On June 07 2011 00:19 Jackal58 wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 00:15 amazingxkcd wrote: On June 06 2011 10:47 Alderan wrote: Here's a list of a couple people who seem to be acting a little scummy. (Not saying for sure scum, just people that might not be) Lets get some meaningful conversation going. Amazingxkcd I've already kind of voiced this opinion but I'm going to expound upon my earlier analysis. Let's look at his posts. It is quite clear that it can be seen who are the main talkers for both side. The only question is now how to distinguish between the two sides and how to act upon it This post, obviously vague, of little help to the town, and posted directly after he appeared on TheAwesomeAll's “Lurker List”. When I pointed out this was a fishy post he responded with this: interesting first post there, all ready trying to set up accustation upon me for supposedly making a scummy post when in reality i am only simply making observation. You already got into my list of suspicious people by derailing a innocent first post when we still have around 30+ hours left to figure out each other. Obviously immediately went on the defensive, turned and pointed a finger at me, and suggest that the town take its time “figuring each other out” instead of having discussion that is inherently pro-town. In fact his only “contribution” to town discussion was this post: Please refer to these guides on playing TL mafia. For town: aidnai, GMarshal For mafia: bumatlarge, chaos13 LSB's Newbie Guide Mafiascum Newbie Guide Introduction to Mafia (Flash) Ver's town guide Ace's Mafia Manifesto Qatol's Town Guide So his only contribution to the town is copying and pasting something that is in the third post of this thread? Interesting. On June 06 2011 23:10 Alderan wrote: Also, I'm going to ahead and voting for amazingxkcd, just in case something happens to me at work today and I won't be able to get a vote in. @ amazingkcd, I'm really just waiting on you to refute the analysis I did earlier. You are discriminating against me and you just voted for me right now just off the basis of my first post, which i made after i finished watching MLG. You do not provide evidence that i am a scum nor do you back it up should you have given any evidence. It seems that you want me to be lynched when i am trying to win for the town. @iGrok and @Jackal58; I can't analyze Kurumi either, since i take that he's acting as if he has multiple personalities disorder. He should be watched for sure. Also, @Jackal58, you stated that he had the same behavior in the previous games you played with him, what were his roles? That should at least help to give us a direction on him. I am not trying to label you two as complete scum, but i was just concerned about iGrok's request for help from Jackal58. About freeloader, I am currently leaning towards the scummy side as for the reasons others have put up front already, but i need more time to see if i do want to lynch him. There are others here who seem suspicious based on their posts and the tone of their post, but i am not ready right now to make a final desicion. Kurumi was town in XXXIX. Lynched day one for posting nonsensically for the first half of the day. He has improved significantly from that game believe it or not. He is also still playing in PTP mafia and is a self proclaimed SK. Ok, yeah that makes a lot more sense. Yeah, I'm starting to see how Kurumi could be a townie, but I could also see him as a scum who felt the pressure and is trying to change his tune. I still don't thing he should be lynched today. I'm trying to think of who should be, but I really don't know :/ Think of this as so: Kurumi asked for a DT check on himself, so he knows that he is going to be clean from the rolecheck. This means two things 1. He is a townie and his behavior is just the same as the one that jackal's game with him was or 2. He is the godfather and he's trying to mindfuck us since gf comes clean through DT check. You are right that his behavior cannot be analyzed at all, but why is he so adament that we check him? Could it be that he wants us to forget about him when his check comes clean and then he is free to do whatever he wants? Remember, he has mislead many people with his ramblings, so judge wisely. We're back to the saga of xkcd and Kurumi. First off is the instant inference that "he knows that he is going to be clean from the rolecheck". Now, iGrok had just made a big, long post calling for a DT on Kurumi. Kurumi turns around and welcomes it. xkcd's two points are two possible cases, or 3. Kurumi is scum, panicking, and hoping that people will only consider case 1 and case 2. Or is relying on how unreliable DT checks are (miller, godfather framer, and besides how do we know who the bloody DTs are anyways). A case that xkcd misses out on, intentionally or unintentionally. This'll matter later, kids. He also brings up this notion that "his behavior cannot be analyzed at all" which is antithetical to the game. Kurumi may be difficult to analyze but not impossible. Minor quibbles, true, but what does he really say? To paraphrase: "Kurumi my be mafia or he may be town, there's no way to tell". Which is a great way of saying nothing. His sign-off is interesting though. so judge wisely. xkcd's learned a new trick! One that he uses extensively in posts to come. Judge wisely! xkcd sure as hell isn't gonna have an opinion, those are hard! It's all up to you guys! From here on xkcd starts explicitly putting the onus on making decisions on everyone else, and not himself. POST NUMBER TEN On June 07 2011 03:23 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 03:08 iGrok wrote: On June 07 2011 02:56 Alderan wrote: On June 07 2011 02:53 iGrok wrote: On June 07 2011 02:43 Vain wrote: On June 07 2011 02:31 iGrok wrote: On June 07 2011 02:11 Vain wrote: Ok, i finally finished reading. Man, sleeping is bad for keeping up with a mafia game. First off: Kurumi is probably town if he also spammed this much in a previous game where he was scum. I don't know his style very good but he is drawing way too much attention to be a comfortable mafia. I don't quite understand this. So Kurumi is probably town because he's acting the same way he did when he was mafia before? Euh, i meant town. Jackal stated that when he was town he's just as hard to analyze. Iirc he was not scum the other games Jackal played with him. + Show Spoiler + On June 07 2011 00:19 Jackal58 wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 00:15 amazingxkcd wrote: On June 06 2011 10:47 Alderan wrote: Here's a list of a couple people who seem to be acting a little scummy. (Not saying for sure scum, just people that might not be) Lets get some meaningful conversation going. Amazingxkcd I've already kind of voiced this opinion but I'm going to expound upon my earlier analysis. Let's look at his posts. It is quite clear that it can be seen who are the main talkers for both side. The only question is now how to distinguish between the two sides and how to act upon it This post, obviously vague, of little help to the town, and posted directly after he appeared on TheAwesomeAll's “Lurker List”. When I pointed out this was a fishy post he responded with this: interesting first post there, all ready trying to set up accustation upon me for supposedly making a scummy post when in reality i am only simply making observation. You already got into my list of suspicious people by derailing a innocent first post when we still have around 30+ hours left to figure out each other. Obviously immediately went on the defensive, turned and pointed a finger at me, and suggest that the town take its time “figuring each other out” instead of having discussion that is inherently pro-town. In fact his only “contribution” to town discussion was this post: Please refer to these guides on playing TL mafia. For town: aidnai, GMarshal For mafia: bumatlarge, chaos13 LSB's Newbie Guide Mafiascum Newbie Guide Introduction to Mafia (Flash) Ver's town guide Ace's Mafia Manifesto Qatol's Town Guide So his only contribution to the town is copying and pasting something that is in the third post of this thread? Interesting. On June 06 2011 23:10 Alderan wrote: Also, I'm going to ahead and voting for amazingxkcd, just in case something happens to me at work today and I won't be able to get a vote in. @ amazingkcd, I'm really just waiting on you to refute the analysis I did earlier. You are discriminating against me and you just voted for me right now just off the basis of my first post, which i made after i finished watching MLG. You do not provide evidence that i am a scum nor do you back it up should you have given any evidence. It seems that you want me to be lynched when i am trying to win for the town. @iGrok and @Jackal58; I can't analyze Kurumi either, since i take that he's acting as if he has multiple personalities disorder. He should be watched for sure. Also, @Jackal58, you stated that he had the same behavior in the previous games you played with him, what were his roles? That should at least help to give us a direction on him. I am not trying to label you two as complete scum, but i was just concerned about iGrok's request for help from Jackal58. About freeloader, I am currently leaning towards the scummy side as for the reasons others have put up front already, but i need more time to see if i do want to lynch him. There are others here who seem suspicious based on their posts and the tone of their post, but i am not ready right now to make a final desicion. Kurumi was town in XXXIX. Lynched day one for posting nonsensically for the first half of the day. He has improved significantly from that game believe it or not. He is also still playing in PTP mafia and is a self proclaimed SK. Ok, yeah that makes a lot more sense. Yeah, I'm starting to see how Kurumi could be a townie, but I could also see him as a scum who felt the pressure and is trying to change his tune. I still don't thing he should be lynched today. I'm trying to think of who should be, but I really don't know :/ But you agree that it shouldn't be freeloader? Yeah. Here's my "Don't Lynch" list (in no particular order): Me ^^ Jackal58 Vain GGQ Kurumi Treadmill 35spike1 CrJninja Xedat aprudds Actually, looking back, I'm going to put my vote on Drazerk, for twice voting without saying shit. (He might've posted once or twice, but absolutely no substance, only bandwagonning). It is intrresting that you list everyone who did not accuse you yet. Explain in great detail your case for each one in your list. Once again we see the wishy-washy "it is intrresting" [sic]. Once again xkcd doesn't give his own opinion on something. And once again he puts the onus for analysis on others - this time pushing iGrok to "explain in great detail" why he thinks certain people are innocent. Had iGrok followed his instructions he would've wasted a lot of time and the thread's attention addressing an unimportant question. It doesn't matter who's town, the focus should be who's mafia. POST NUMBER ELEVEN On June 07 2011 03:42 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 03:27 iGrok wrote: On June 07 2011 03:23 amazingxkcd wrote: On June 07 2011 03:08 iGrok wrote: On June 07 2011 02:56 Alderan wrote: On June 07 2011 02:53 iGrok wrote: On June 07 2011 02:43 Vain wrote: On June 07 2011 02:31 iGrok wrote: On June 07 2011 02:11 Vain wrote: Ok, i finally finished reading. Man, sleeping is bad for keeping up with a mafia game. First off: Kurumi is probably town if he also spammed this much in a previous game where he was scum. I don't know his style very good but he is drawing way too much attention to be a comfortable mafia. I don't quite understand this. So Kurumi is probably town because he's acting the same way he did when he was mafia before? Euh, i meant town. Jackal stated that when he was town he's just as hard to analyze. Iirc he was not scum the other games Jackal played with him. + Show Spoiler + On June 07 2011 00:19 Jackal58 wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 00:15 amazingxkcd wrote: On June 06 2011 10:47 Alderan wrote: Here's a list of a couple people who seem to be acting a little scummy. (Not saying for sure scum, just people that might not be) Lets get some meaningful conversation going. Amazingxkcd I've already kind of voiced this opinion but I'm going to expound upon my earlier analysis. Let's look at his posts. It is quite clear that it can be seen who are the main talkers for both side. The only question is now how to distinguish between the two sides and how to act upon it This post, obviously vague, of little help to the town, and posted directly after he appeared on TheAwesomeAll's “Lurker List”. When I pointed out this was a fishy post he responded with this: interesting first post there, all ready trying to set up accustation upon me for supposedly making a scummy post when in reality i am only simply making observation. You already got into my list of suspicious people by derailing a innocent first post when we still have around 30+ hours left to figure out each other. Obviously immediately went on the defensive, turned and pointed a finger at me, and suggest that the town take its time “figuring each other out” instead of having discussion that is inherently pro-town. In fact his only “contribution” to town discussion was this post: Please refer to these guides on playing TL mafia. For town: aidnai, GMarshal For mafia: bumatlarge, chaos13 LSB's Newbie Guide Mafiascum Newbie Guide Introduction to Mafia (Flash) Ver's town guide Ace's Mafia Manifesto Qatol's Town Guide So his only contribution to the town is copying and pasting something that is in the third post of this thread? Interesting. On June 06 2011 23:10 Alderan wrote: Also, I'm going to ahead and voting for amazingxkcd, just in case something happens to me at work today and I won't be able to get a vote in. @ amazingkcd, I'm really just waiting on you to refute the analysis I did earlier. You are discriminating against me and you just voted for me right now just off the basis of my first post, which i made after i finished watching MLG. You do not provide evidence that i am a scum nor do you back it up should you have given any evidence. It seems that you want me to be lynched when i am trying to win for the town. @iGrok and @Jackal58; I can't analyze Kurumi either, since i take that he's acting as if he has multiple personalities disorder. He should be watched for sure. Also, @Jackal58, you stated that he had the same behavior in the previous games you played with him, what were his roles? That should at least help to give us a direction on him. I am not trying to label you two as complete scum, but i was just concerned about iGrok's request for help from Jackal58. About freeloader, I am currently leaning towards the scummy side as for the reasons others have put up front already, but i need more time to see if i do want to lynch him. There are others here who seem suspicious based on their posts and the tone of their post, but i am not ready right now to make a final desicion. Kurumi was town in XXXIX. Lynched day one for posting nonsensically for the first half of the day. He has improved significantly from that game believe it or not. He is also still playing in PTP mafia and is a self proclaimed SK. Ok, yeah that makes a lot more sense. Yeah, I'm starting to see how Kurumi could be a townie, but I could also see him as a scum who felt the pressure and is trying to change his tune. I still don't thing he should be lynched today. I'm trying to think of who should be, but I really don't know :/ But you agree that it shouldn't be freeloader? Yeah. Here's my "Don't Lynch" list (in no particular order): Me ^^ Jackal58 Vain GGQ Kurumi Treadmill 35spike1 CrJninja Xedat aprudds Actually, looking back, I'm going to put my vote on Drazerk, for twice voting without saying shit. (He might've posted once or twice, but absolutely no substance, only bandwagonning). It is intrresting that you list everyone who did not accuse you yet. Explain in great detail your case for each one in your list. LOL. Kurumi accused me. He recently has backed off of me, but he DEFINITELY accused me. I slipped up on kurumi, but his behavior so far was queer, so i really don't know his stance on you as of now. He is to capricious for me. First off, xkcd and Kurumi - Kurumi is behaving queerly, he's capricious, etc. Also, this is an oddly defensive post against an off-the-cuff comment from iGrok. Another post without saying anything. POST NUMBER TWELVE On June 07 2011 03:45 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 03:42 Kurumi wrote: On June 07 2011 03:40 TranceStorm wrote: On June 07 2011 03:34 iGrok wrote: On June 07 2011 03:28 gtrsrs wrote: iGrok did a 28000 character analysis and determined that kurumi was scum, and less than a day later, before he even had time to convince anyone to vote for kurumi, iGrok now has kurumi on his "don't lynch" list. duly noted Because, as I noted in that post, I wasn't sure. Combined with Jackal's testimony and Kurumi's abrubt change in play, I'd prefer a DT check on him. You know, exactly what I said in that post Hmm. As amazingxkcd has already noted, a DT check wouldn't reveal much about Kurumi. If Kurumi were mafia, he certainly would be selected as the godfather given that the mafia select amongst themselves on night one who the godfather is. Therefore, regardless of whether he is or isn't mafia, we still will have no clue on Day 2 as to his alignment because he could have been town-aligned to begin with, or switched to town-aligned through his godfather powers. I'd kill myself as mafioso if I were GF. Why would you? I thought you wanted to win if assuming you were a mafia. Off topic and irrelevant. POST NUMBER THIRTEEN On June 07 2011 03:57 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 03:52 iGrok wrote: On June 07 2011 03:40 TranceStorm wrote: On June 07 2011 03:34 iGrok wrote: On June 07 2011 03:28 gtrsrs wrote: iGrok did a 28000 character analysis and determined that kurumi was scum, and less than a day later, before he even had time to convince anyone to vote for kurumi, iGrok now has kurumi on his "don't lynch" list. duly noted Because, as I noted in that post, I wasn't sure. Combined with Jackal's testimony and Kurumi's abrubt change in play, I'd prefer a DT check on him. You know, exactly what I said in that post Hmm. As amazingxkcd has already noted, a DT check wouldn't reveal much about Kurumi. If Kurumi were mafia, he certainly would be selected as the godfather given that the mafia select amongst themselves on night one who the godfather is. Therefore, regardless of whether he is or isn't mafia, we still will have no clue on Day 2 as to his alignment because he could have been town-aligned to begin with, or switched to town-aligned through his godfather powers. Usually the GF has to be chosen by the end of D1. I would be shocked if Kurumi was chosen as GF, because a GF would NOT risk being lynched D1 - thats just crazy. That is why i stated if kurumi was chosen as gf already, he's trying to mindfuck with us. He already started day 1 with a bunch of controversial rants, so it more so than not likely he'll continue. Either mafia already chosen their gf if kurumi is mafia or he is playing a strange gamble here. More weird comments from xkcd about Kurumi that don't say anything productive at all. POST NUMBER FOURTEEN On June 07 2011 04:05 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 04:00 TranceStorm wrote: Furthermore, everyone seems to have glided right past my analysis of Jimbooo and seems to have ignored it completely. I'll link to it again here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=17#330 What do you guys think about Jimbooo considering now that he has turned around from actively participating to avoiding the thread after being called out? Remember this is a newbie game, so they seem suspicious but that analysis does raise some questions about him. However, what are your thoughts on the other suspects in the current debacle? I don't know, xkcd, what are yours? You've yet to provide any. And "does raise some questions" is a classic way of saying nothing at all while appearing to comment. POST NUMBER FIFTEEN On June 07 2011 04:16 amazingxkcd wrote: Hello impervious!! Also, does impervious have the same role as benjef? I'll point out that xkcd notices that impervious is only just joining us (this too will come up). apart from that, nothing. Nada. It's after this that the rookie44 debacle begins, so I'll save the rest for a part two. To sum up to this point: xkcd has fifteen posts, but he's yet to offer a firm opinion on almost anything. In fact, all but one of Kurumi's posts fall into one of four categories: No Content 1, 4, 7, 8, 12, 14, 15 Defensive 2, 6, 11 Minor Accusations w/o Follow-Up 3, 10 Saying Nothing About Kurumi 6, 9, 13 Post 6 has two parts, so its in two categories. Note than all four categories are pretty much useless to the town. The only exception so far is post 5 - and I'm being extremely charitable on that. He gives a half-assed argument for Jackal and iGrok being somehow in league. There are some interesting themes developing about amazingxkcd already, though. For one, he's got some weird fixation with Kurumi. That one doesn't matter yet but it will. He's also gotten in the habit of posting his suspicions of pretty much everybody but not really following up or being decisive. Most fundamentally xkcd has, thus far, been characterized by posting a lot of essentially contentless posts. One last thing to note is that xkcd has been following the thread quite closely. He notices grush57's early and unexplained vote, he comments on Impervious' entrance shortly after it happens, and most significantly he responds to any criticism or suspicion other player have of him. More to come in part 2 | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
it's day 2 we get a lynch and I think we've got an obvious target amazingxkcd PART TWO You thinking, hey Treadmill, I'm suspicious of this xkcd guy but not yet convinced? Well, here things get interesting. THE rookie44 BANDWAGON One vote would be happenstance. Two coincidence. But three? Three seems like enemy action. On June 07 2011 06:28 Kurumi wrote: ##unvote ##vote: Rookie44 On June 07 2011 06:29 Senj wrote: ##vote: Rookie44 On June 07 2011 06:31 amazingxkcd wrote: ##VOTE: Rookie44 This, in my mind, is the single most damning piece of evidence against not just xkcd but against all three. In case you missed it, I'm talking about the time stamps - 3 votes, for the same person, within 3 minutes of each other. It comes down to what you think the probability of this being merely coincidence. Considering that there was no post at perhaps 5 to 10 minutes prior to the 6:28 laying out a convincing argument (such a post would indicate that the three read it and became convinced at around the same time) I believe that the odds are rather low. If you look over the voting thread you'll see that though the votes do get closer as the the end of day time comes around, there is no other case of three votes within 3 minutes. As well, before the rookie situation votes were on average half an hour or more apart, bar a few exceptions. I am not discounting the possibility of this being chance. However, it seems more likely to me to be co-ordination, and only the mafia is capable of that. This is not the only piece of evidence against xkcd or the others but I believe it is a significant one. Added to this is my belief that the mafia organized the lynch of rookie44. His post history indicated that he was a likely blue, and especially conisdering last nights murders of GGQ and DeMorcerf, who were not blue but in retrospect appeared to be possible blues, I believe that the mafia has been hunting for blues. It also bears mentioning that all three (xkcd, Senj, and Kurumi) voted before they posted their explanation - I believe it is usually in the otehr order, though I haven't checked. I'm not going to delve deeper into rookie44's lynch because firstly a decent number of town must have voted for it, so however weak I may feel the case was it was apparently convincing enough for some, and secondly, there is enough other evidence in his posts to indict xkcd without getting into yesterday's lynch. So, without further ado, POST NUMBER SIXTEEN On June 07 2011 06:34 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 06:16 Alderan wrote: On June 07 2011 06:03 Jackal58 wrote: On June 07 2011 05:56 Alderan wrote: On June 07 2011 05:47 TranceStorm wrote: On June 07 2011 05:38 Jackal58 wrote: You guys want to vote for scum? Vote this guy - rookie44: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9611408 Has played before so he has an idea how it works. Very subtle in his fishing for blues. Only scum fish for blues. Wants to know what methods and tactics are used to catch scum. Wants us to share them with everybody. Claims it will help derail scum tactics. When it will obviously do the opposite. Has all but disappeared since this post. I'm sure he'll show up momentarily to tell me how full of shit I am. That's where my vote is going. I would recommend you all do the same. Would you mind doing a post-by-post analysis of rookie44's posts? (There are only 3) Right now I can't really see how subtly he is fishing for blues. After all, we don't know how experienced he really is, so I would like a little more clarification as to your accusation. Wait so you're saying instead of voting for new players being dumb you suggest us to vote for a player who has never played before on the forums (admittedly so) for suggesting that veteran players toss out potential strategies? Sure it's a LITTLE scummy, but until I see some elaboration on your "very subtle in fishing for blues" I'm going to have to disagree with you. You his scum buddy? Just pointing out that I think your analysis is just as weak or weaker than all the others. Let's see how he responds. You seem to be in a position to defend rookie44 when he has made quite a lot of scummy posts, particularly trying to take advantage of noobs to slip up their roles with Show nested quote + What i believe is the crucial difference is that we have large amounts of time for discussion. This also gives us the time to create a solid plan for using whatever roles we have effectively (it would seem that way). Also, notices how already from the start of the game, he is asking for roles and wanted to lynch Treadmill without any sound proof besides making a suggestion about the freeloader wagon being loaded with mafias Show nested quote + Would it be a legitimate stratagy if we lynched treadmill with the thought that he and some other mafia got overzealous with voting for freeloader? Here, he is making assumptions about what the mafia should do, which is trying to divert attention away from him. Show nested quote + It seems like if someone got a role in the mafia then they would be more anxious to start the game, and would be much more active in the very beginning. This is a mafia game for less experienced players so maybe that means there will be some metagame mistakes? for these reasons and the ones given by jackal58 as well as kurumi, i am voting for Rookie44 on the basis of clear scummy post and trying to divert attention away from himself with circular logic ##Vote: Rookie44 also alderan, I am very suspicious of you for trying to defend this guy. Elaborate as to why you think he is not a scum. Here we have xkcd explicitly giving his reasons for voting for rookie44. For the most part xkcd is simply reiterating the points made by Jackal - the major point being the bogus notion of "blue-fishing". I'm not really sure what to say about this, I found the case against rookie to be extremely weak anyways. The one point to mention is: also alderan, I am very suspicious of you for trying to defend this guy. Elaborate as to why you think he is not a scum. Here xkcd is once again casting aspersions and attacking Alderan, and pushing for "elaboration" and more explanation - I'll touch on that later. POST NUMBER SEVENTEEN On June 07 2011 06:49 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 06:43 Treadmill wrote: Alternately rookie44 is blue. Let's see: trying not to be noticed, yeah. Mafia or blue. Interested in what blues have to say, well, OK. Not really blue fishing - more interested in talking about the strategy for what our blues should be doing. That's my read on rookie44, a newbie blue. I didn't want to out him cause if I'm right I painted a big, fat target on his back. But there's all of a sudden a bandwagon building on him, and with how spread out our votes are the mafia will be able to easily swing a lynch. Theres a difference between voting for rookie44 based upon clear and concise evidence rather than bandwagoning to him for the easy lynch. His actions are already been quite suspicious and i already have referenced him to guides that he can use. However, he continued to post as if he ignored those guides still asking about strategies concerning blue hunting and how to act. Theres only 3 votes on him right now, so freeloader is still having the most votes. Those 3 votes (mine included) gave concise explanations for why he is a scum, all of them referring to the role fishing notions set forth by rookie. If you think that he is a rookie blue, then why does he still keep trying to ask for roles and strategies when guides were linked to him? Lets see an analysis on this subject that he could be a rookie blue, because i do not see much evidence to support that. Here's one of the longest posts from xkcd. First off - at this point, there were 4 votes for rookie. In fact, xkcd WAS the fourth vote. So seriously, what the hell? And he says Those 3 votes (mine included) gave concise explanations for why he is a scum Oh, really? Well Jackal gave an explanation. And xkcd gave an explanation. But Senj had only voted, not posted, and Kurumi had only given a cursory (and uncharacteristic) "I agree with Jackal". Anyways, why is xkcd defending all the votes against rookie? In fact - xkcd has shown himself to have a good eye on the vote list and the thread. Did he just miss Senj voting but not posting? At heart the miscount of how many votes makes this all confusing rather than damning. xkcd's continued habit of referring to people without sating who they are doesn't help. In fact, the only thing I get out of this is Lets see an analysis on this subject which is xkcd once again putting the onus of making an argument on someone else. I want to point out - this is a trap. There is no such thing as absolute proof in this game. But from here on in, whenever xkcd encounters an argument he ignores its content and responds with "lets see you make more analysis". Which only stalls things out. Also, if you're accusing someone of being mafia, the burden of proof should be on you. POST NUMBER EIGHTEEN On June 07 2011 08:09 amazingxkcd wrote: Kairo, you just switch your vote to rookie44. What is your reasoning since the last post you made was trying to draw votes away from freeloader onto cherubael. Are you attempting to bandwagon onto this guy now? Okay, this could be amazingxkcd being a good townie - or it could be him trying to look like a good townie, and muddy the trail. Ultimately he isn't actually saying anything, again, except once again casting vague suspicions on another player. POST NUMBER NINETEEN On June 07 2011 08:14 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 08:14 CjrNinja wrote: @rookie44 Hurry up and respond to Alderan's question. Do you still advocate voting for gtrsrs? If so, give us a proper explanation as to why. Saying 'for the reasons above' and 'refering to himself in third person' isn't good enough. If you're not going to vote gtrsrs, then who? And why? Will re-read the thread again to try and get a handle on what's happened the last few hours. Voting closes in 5 hours, right? As of now, yes Another post that says nothing. POST NUMBER TWENTY On June 07 2011 09:00 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 08:51 Treadmill wrote: I absolutely don't buy the "hunting for blues" nonsense on rookie44. I don't see at all how what he's been saying could lead to blues revealing themselves - one of the people voting for him should lay out the case a bit better. On June 07 2011 06:01 Jackal58 wrote: On June 07 2011 05:47 TranceStorm wrote: On June 07 2011 05:38 Jackal58 wrote: You guys want to vote for scum? Vote this guy - rookie44: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9611408 Has played before so he has an idea how it works. Very subtle in his fishing for blues. Only scum fish for blues. Wants to know what methods and tactics are used to catch scum. Wants us to share them with everybody. Claims it will help derail scum tactics. When it will obviously do the opposite. Has all but disappeared since this post. I'm sure he'll show up momentarily to tell me how full of shit I am. That's where my vote is going. I would recommend you all do the same. Would you mind doing a post-by-post analysis of rookie44's posts? (There are only 3) Right now I can't really see how subtly he is fishing for blues. After all, we don't know how experienced he really is, so I would like a little more clarification as to your accusation. We'll start with the post I linked: On June 06 2011 04:22 rookie44 wrote: Hey guys, This is all getting a bit out of hand, we seem to already be getting in each others faces over perceived (and real) sleights. I have only played mafia on battle.net, and this is going to be quite a different game to that. Only real difference is timing. Tactics are the same What i believe is the crucial difference is that we have large amounts of time for discussion. This also gives us the time to create a solid plan for using whatever roles we have effectively (it would seem that way). This is role fishing. He's wanting people to post their roles and tell him how they intend to use them. At the very least he's hoping a noob would post something along the lines of I'm a DT. Who should I check Maybe some of the more experienced players could expand on what investigative stratagies they have used; their pitfalls, and how we may evade those pitfalls. This is saying "I am scum. How are you guys going to catch me? It's called a scum slip Perhaps an added benifit will be that it will be very tricky for a mafia to come up with a generalized stratagy that is grounded in reason, so maybe there will be some suspiciously quiet people. (I assume it will be difficult for a generalized stratagy becasue i can only see the mafia being able to take advantage of a specific stratagy by getting their peolpe in the right places). This is just bullshit trying to provide a townie reason for asking. My analysis in red. This guy is scum. Point by point: 1. Irrelevant. And battle.net mafia is EXTREMELY different from this. 2. No, he isn't asking people to post their roles. He's asking what people think good strategy for blues would be - which is a reasonable question from town and even more sensible for a blue poster. 3. Alternately, he's honestly a newbie asking experienced players what they think we should be doing. 4. Or, he's giving his reason, as a townie, for asking. The "analysis" is bullshit. This is bandwagonning at its WORST. I gave him guides ti read after his 1st post concerning strategies. He ignored it and continued to ask about that topic then makes a sorry post about not reading too much in depth. Also, he wants to play for the lategame as if it is sc2 when we have to get the scums lynched now. This is not his first game, so he has experience already. I make a brief defence of rookie. xkcd reads it, quotes it, and rather than responding to my (admittedly short) arguments posts a bunch of different (and worse) reasons to lynch rookie44. Also, note this: This is not his first game, so he has experience already Sounds like he knows what he's doing, wouldn't need to ask for guides or strategies in the first place, right? Wrong. His "experience" is from battle.net mafia - which I dont think anyone in their right mind would equate with forum mafia. I also want to mention something that xkcd doesn't post - anything else about rookie44. Were he a good townie he might respond to rookie44's halfhearted posts defending himself. POST NUMBER TWENTY-ONE POST NUMBER TWENTY-TWO On June 07 2011 10:17 amazingxkcd wrote: @impervious, you just switxhed your vote from rookie to me. I did not see explanation of ur vote for rookie but why the switch now? A double post. With no content. Well, he does see his mistake so this one means nothing. POST NUMBER TWENTY-THREE On June 07 2011 10:27 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 10:16 iGrok wrote: On June 07 2011 10:13 Impervious wrote: Ok, I thought it through looking at a variety of different situations, and I believe that we need to push for a lynch of one of those 3, rather than rookie. Why? Because, it's likely that all 3 (or 2 of them) are mafia, based on the timing (and assuming that rookie is town and we have 2 or so vigis in the game). When that one flips, here's the outcomes: Scum - We get vigis to hit one or both of the others overnight. Early knockdown to 3KP for the mafia. Town - We get a vigi to hit rookie as an insurance policy for switching (although we can argue the merit of this move overnight, and should rookie turn out to be red, Treadmill would be a decent policy lynch tomorrow because of how hard he's been defending). So, if we're going to hit one of them, we need to pick the scummiest one, in case it's a freak accident that they all voted at the same time like that. And we've gotta do it quick (I'm gone in ~1 hr). Basically, if we switch - in the worst case scenario we give our vigis a good target tonight, and best case, we hit 2 or 3 mafia. Pretty damn good first lynch/night imo. Now, I asked myself "have they been acting in the best interest of the town?", and the one that really stood out as a "no" was xkcd, so I'd agree with a switch to him right now. So, I'm changing my vote. ##Vote: amazingxkcd which 3? EBWOP: just saw your post, stupid itouch. Anyway, lets take a look at this. You are assuming that i am in league with jackal when i had made an eariler post stating that i was suspicious of him and iGrok together. If i was a scum and so was he, then why would i accuse him? I even tried to make a case against kurumi ( that case still holds) that he is too eager to want a dt check. Whats even worse is that you want to lynch either me, kurumi, or jackal for information. Really? That is quite a mafia statement "hey lets lynch random townsmen so we can lynch others for more information? What about me? Im not trying to draw attention, move along" Now, you haven't made much discoveries and analysis yourself, and you derail me from a basis of "it doesn't sound right". I am keeping my vote on rookie, but if you don't respond to this, i will switch my vote to you. Like post number 17, here he's either giving the runaround or he's just confused. The three being referred to are Senj, Kurumi, and amazingxkcd, and the reason being the weird timing of their votes. Bringing up Jackal is missing the point. I really don't know on this one, I'm less charitable than I normally would be as xkcd has been following the thread fairly closely - but it could just be a mistake. Setting that aside, Whats even worse is that you want to lynch either me, kurumi, or jackal for information it's likely that all 3 (or 2 of them) are mafia Here xkcd starts to get under some pressure and his response is to all-out straw-man (this means to basically claim that an argument is different from what it is, with your altered version being obviously flawed). xkcd starts screaming "lynch for information" whereas Impervious has straight out written that he believes xkcd to be scum. The grain of truth is that Impervious goes on to talk about what information could be gleaned from lynching xkcd, and considers the possibility that he could be wrong (something good town does but xkcd never did with rookie). you haven't made much discoveries and analysis yourself This is significant cause as xkcd is aware, Impervious has only just joined the game. xkcd also brings up his obsession with Kurumi and why we shouldn't DT him. Finally there's his closing: I am keeping my vote on rookie, but if you don't respond to this, i will switch my vote to you. which is just ugly. POST NUMBER TWENTY-FOUR On June 07 2011 10:30 amazingxkcd wrote: Ebwop; this is directed at impervious Also, drazerk is looking like a scum now that i start to evaluate him more in depth. I will do more work to see if i should switch my vote to him if impervious gives a proper response. The comment here is pretty much useless - another "I'm suspicious of this guy" that never goes anywhere. Also xkcd is making his vote somehow dependant on Impervious, which makes no sense. POST NUMBER TWENTY-FIVE On June 07 2011 10:45 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 10:37 GGQ wrote: Just caught up! Jackal's rookie lynch doesn't seem well-founded to me at all. It's possible that he's mafia but I highly doubt it. I voted jimbooo; the first line on my mafia XL sheet is a scribble saying "Jimboo-words and actions say different things". His posts since then haven't convinced me to back off of him either. This is my preferred lynch. I also would support an amazingxkcd lynch, he went on my sheet with his first post and since then he's been underlined twice lol. Let's get our votes off of rookie and onto one of these two guys. I see that you are keeping a sheet too as well. In any case, i just want to point out that impervious is pushing for a lynch to get information rather than simply kill scum. He states in one of his posts that i seem to be the scummist because of my actions when in fact all of my analysis did not get based on feelings, but rather wordings and behavior shown. Another useless, non-contributing, defensive post. Still straw-manning about the "lynch for information". POST NUMBER TWENTY-SIX On June 07 2011 11:00 amazingxkcd wrote: @tdadonis, You have not made a single and you voted for rookie. Care to explain? Another comment that doesn't say anything. POST NUMBER TWENTY-SEVEN On June 07 2011 11:08 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 10:58 CjrNinja wrote: On June 07 2011 09:35 Treadmill wrote: Another interesting point: Jackal58 makes his case against rookie44, it's pretty weak, the people posting aren't convinced. Nobody but him votes for rookie44. Then an hour later On June 07 2011 06:28 Kurumi wrote: ##unvote ##vote: Rookie44 On June 07 2011 06:29 Senj wrote: ##vote: Rookie44 On June 07 2011 06:31 amazingxkcd wrote: ##VOTE: Rookie44 Look at the time stamps, within 3 minutes of each other. And none of them posted for 2 hours previous to bandwagonning rookie. It looks liek co-ordination. This is very interesting. Good pickup. I don't think rookie or jimboo are anything other than inexperienced town. jimboo voting with the flow is certainly suspicious. But his defense is convincing (to me anyway) that he really has no grasp with what is going on. Drazerk is a little more suspicious, having little to no activity in the thread yet voting twice. Keeping my eye on him and his promised analysis. Which reminds me Freeloader please post your Day 1 thoughts, as you promised. Rookie is the most likely to get lynched at the moment. I wonder if a cause of this is due to the fact that an experienced player in Jackal was the one who made the accusation against him. Experienced players in this game will undoubtedly have more gravitas with regards to what they say in this game, and yeah, I can see how people are satisfied with his dissection of rookie's post (helped by the fact that rookie's defense has been terrible). To me, personally, rookie reeks of inexperience, not scum. Mafia would certainly take advantage of the potential answers people give, but I think he was under the impression he was helping town. But considering this is newbie mafia, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for now. So, who's most suspicious to me? amazingxkcd On June 06 2011 02:56 amazingxkcd wrote: It is quite clear that it can be seen who are the main talkers for both side. The only question is now how to distinguish between the two sides and how to act upon it This was posted after he appeared on a lurker list, as pointed out by Alderean. A clear non contribution to appear active. (amazingxkcd later layed suspicions on when Alderean when he defended rookie). He attacks iGrok, who was contributing the most analysis to the game, while not really posting analysis of anyone else at all. Especially after Treadmill's post I quoted above, it appears that there was a bit of collaborating between the 3 of them (Kurmuri, amazingxkcd and senj). I'm finding this very suspicious and is my best reasoning to vote for amazingxkcd on a very chaotic day one. Impervious said it best: On June 07 2011 10:13 Impervious wrote: Now, I asked myself "have they been acting in the best interest of the town?", and the one that really stood out as a "no" was xkcd. You've got my vote amazingxkcd. I didn't put forth analysis? Hey let's see, i analysised kurumi and his statement with wanting a dt check and i stated my positiob on that, i analysised iGrok asking help from jackal which against is suspicious given they hadn't talked much to each other, i analysised rookie's position as very scum like which has different premises than jackal btw, and right Now i analysied impervious's wanting to lynch for information, which i am sure you know is scum behavior. It is quite clear that 1. Rookie probably will die since so many people bandwagoned after mine and jackal's analysis. So, am i being not helpfull, crjninja? I sure am. It is quite clear that you didn't read any of my post after the first two and came to a decidion similar to that of impervious, a decision made by feelings. Another comment about [b]Kurumi and why we shouldn't DT him and it wouldn't tell us anything even if we did *check* Another defensive post that strawmans and doesn't look at the real argument against him (the vote timings) *check* Another post that accuses his accusers of being scum *check* Another post that doesn't actually say anything new or novel or at all really *check* And as for his "analysis" - look back at post number 5. Does that really count as analysis? Look at post number 16. Are his arguments actually based on different premises than Jackal's? And "analysied impervious's wanting to lynch for information, which i am sure you know is scum behavior"? Just LOL. POST NUMBER TWENTY-EIGHT On June 07 2011 11:51 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 11:46 Varpulis wrote: SPELL HIS NAME RIGHT OR I BRING OUT THE THUNDER CjrNinja. happy? Another pointless post POST NUMBER TWENTY-NINE On June 07 2011 12:19 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 11:53 heist wrote: OK, this close to the end of Day 1, I'd like to ask everyone who voted for Freeloader, Drazerk, and Jimbooo to revote. I'm not saying they aren't mafia. They very well could be especially Jimboo who remains highly suspicious. However, THEY WILL NOT BE LYNCHED. You won't achieve majority and your votes will be meaningless. I really urge you all to consider Impervious' plan. There's no real solid long-term plan if we do lynch Jimbooo no matter what he turns up. If you're voting based purely on suspicious behavior alone, Amazingxkcd has given off no pro-town vibe. His early posts contributed nothing useful and his latter posts are mainly defensive posts against a multitude of other people (i.e Drazerk, alderan, kairo,). Also, why are people still voting for Freeloader..... u specify defensive posts about a multitude of people. The only ones i have directly accused so far is impervious, alderan and rookie44. All of the others i just simply asked what was their reasoning of their positions. It seems that there is a bandwagon move to take me out, no doubt by the mafia as all of the accusations made against me can only be summerized as "He seems fishy" and "his first post was god-awful". Yes, my first post was god awful because i made a critical error with my statement, but all of the other statements include the accusers to lynch me to obtain information about others, rather than to lynch scum. (Impervious directly said this, so this is why i directly accused him). If this commotion keeps going, it looks like i will die and i assure you that would be a bad idea. More straw-manning (his first post really isn't the major argument against him). Again, 'my accusers must be mafia'. And a sentence (well, clause) that I have yet to decipher as having meaning in the English language: but all of the other statements include the accusers to lynch me to obtain information about others, rather than to lynch scum. POST NUMBER THIRTY On June 08 2011 01:05 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 08 2011 00:39 Kurumi wrote: On June 08 2011 00:37 Xedat wrote: I want to remind everyone that it is night, don't post anything too critical or it will influence the mafia's hits. If you are concerned that you might die save your post for the last few minutes before day. I hope they target me. Best way to waste their shot <3 Well, you just confirmed my stance on you <3 Ummm... what? There are reasons to be supicious of Kurumi and there are reasons to think Kurumi innocent. This is neither. Cause, know what? Mafia members can pretend to be veterans! POST NUMBER THIRTY-TWO On June 08 2011 01:20 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + On June 08 2011 01:19 aprudds wrote: + Show Spoiler + @rookie Are you serious? At least defend yourself man. Your the start of the Jackel tunnel and this is your defense? Step it up man. @ jimbo Hello Jimbo it seems your eager to jump on bandwagons. A BIT TOO eager no? First you jump on the freeloader bandwagon after "patting me on the back", and when the heat turns up a bit you jump off. You disappear for a few hundred posts (200s-500s) with little to no defense and when you pop back with this being your only defense. + Show Spoiler + Sorry for not replying to accusations against me , I really didnt know what to say. My vote was way to early , which was the reason i retracted it. I don't have anything else to say at this point. Next when Jackel starts to put on the heat on rookie you jump on that one as well. With not a single post explaining why. Not even a simple "I agree", or a "that makes sense". Just a simple silent vote. Someone is trying to avoid attention. + Show Spoiler + I accidentally posted my last post without finishing , sorry. Im not sure if freeloader was TRYING to be suspicious with his last post , but after thinking it through I think he is probably just new. That small amount of evidence got a discussion started , but I think people also voted slightly hastily. It looks very suspicious that so many people voted for freeloader right after he was accused. Yes, it looks very suspicious that people voted hastily. I guess you would agree I have ample reason to FOS you then eh? TL;DR (since I know you don't seem to like reading) Neither me nor Jackel had a very good case (my case on freeloader was not even a case at all) and yet you are more than eager to jump on bandwagons. You have almost no defense for your earlier behavior You don't justify your lynches. Your past self would agree that your suspicious You sir get my vote. I would like to restate my case and that the only person other than Lafali that voted freeloader and than jumped on rookie wagon is jimbooo Are you under the assumption that freeloader is a townie since lafali jumped on him as well as jimbooo? And, now that the fuss has died down, xkcd is back to his old tricks of posting completely useless things, writing comments on issues without commenting. Hrrrm. Okay, this has taken too long and I'm going a bit screwy. All in all, though, I think that amazingxkcd is clearly mafia and is our best lynch. | ||
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First, I get a bit less precise and coherent towards the end, sorry about that. However it is his earlier posts that I feel are more convincing, anyways, tthe ones before he started to get accused. So, top 5 reasons that amazingxkcd is mafia: 1. posting a lot but not saying anything, really. 2. getting very defensive on receiving almost any attack 3. the rookie44 lynch 4. straw-manning; lying about the content of other people's arguments 5. the rookie44 lynch again - the first time for how it happened (the timeings of votes, the scurrilous arguments) and the second time for howit ended, how xkcd seemed to just not care about whether rookie was guilty, how he never considered the possibility that he was wrong or that rookie was a blue, and how he completely stopped engaging with the issue after a certain point. | ||
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But I wouldn't be surprised if it was only the trio of Senj, Kurumi, and xkcd that were mafia there. Maybe 1 more at most. They didn't need the votes, so why make themselves more suspicious? I'm also not discounting the notion of the vote timing being coincidence, which would maybe free up some room for Jimbooo or Adonis to be scum maybe. I think one of the big questions today is gonna be iGrok. Honestly I don't see the case against him at all. gtsrs has been down his throat since day one, as has Kurumi, but I kinda feel like a lot of the supicion of him just comes from them flaming him. I wouldn't be surprised if both were also scum - maybe Pyo, a little more likely not. He seems the least irrational in his criticisms. | ||
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On June 08 2011 23:15 Jackal58 wrote: Kudos to you Treadmill. I am not diminishing your efforts or disputing you but I would like to provide a little advice and insight. When you do an analysis like that don't post it all at once. Town has the collective IQ of a sea cucumber. Half the people in the game won't read it all. Half of those remaining will forget about it before day ends. Spoon feed it. Smaller chunks. Throughout the day. Allow people to digest it. Allow discussion to generate around it. Those discussions are invaluable later when we are trying to separate town from scum. Again I am not ripping on you just trying to provide a little advice on how to disseminate your analysis so it has a greater impact. Hrrrm. Fair enough. And thank you, I'm still a newbie so I'm flying pretty blind. I finally took the time to read through todays posts - and I also took a quick look at iGrok's posts. I now think that iGrok is town. On the other hand, though, I can see how he comes across as a bit of a self-important ass (sorry...), and is rubbing some people the wrong way. So I think he's attracting some attention because of that. To a more experienced player (maybe gtsrs or Jackal) - iGrok made the point that when the night post talks about two people, and two shots on GGQ that translates as the mafia using 2 KP on him - can one of you confirm this? Cause that would simplify things for us a bit. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On June 09 2011 10:31 heist wrote: Ok before the bandwagon on iGrok starts to get too much momentum, I felt like I had to intervene. The evidence is much too inconclusive. Sprungjeezy is looking at his posts through a mafia bias and I will try to do the opposite to provide some measure of balance. Mine will be in italics (btw sry i couldnt get through the formatting issues of the last parts of the post) On June 08 2011 23:43 Sprungjeezy wrote: My Analysis of iGrok + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 15:36 iGrok wrote: In the shadows lies A peculiar type of Man Kuze is my name. In this game, I will start all of my posts with haikus. Enjoy ^^ Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 14:39 cherubael wrote: On June 05 2011 14:06 freeloader625 wrote: On June 05 2011 14:03 Jimbooo wrote: On June 05 2011 14:02 freeloader625 wrote: On June 05 2011 13:49 cherubael wrote: On June 05 2011 13:35 aprudds wrote: On June 05 2011 12:44 freeloader625 wrote: Omg I'm so excited for this. I read all the rules twice and just want to ask to anyone willing to answer (before the game starts) since these were not answered in the thread rules: 1) Since PMs are not allowed, how would mafia communicate with each other? 2) Once someone dies whether it be by votes or mafia hit, will their roles be revealed? Thanks and GL everyone! (I've only played SC2 Mafia before and got hooked) Hmm, a bit suspicious no? Right when the PM are getting sent out too. Scum slip? A bit of a bold accusation, I would say. However, I do have to agree, the first question does look a bit suspicious. After all, a townie would have *no* reason to ask such a question, as they can't PM anyway. Oh but a townie does have reasons to ask such a question. Don't take my SC2 Mafia as lack of experience, I was able to deduce roles within the 50seconds given. :D What reason does a townie have to ask such a question? All I can say is, all too often the first one to speak is "put on trial." Sleep on it. So...you asked a question so you could be lynched day one...alright...that makes sense. (note the sarcasm) Either you give a legitimate, straight reason to ask this sort of question as townie, or you clearly are just trying to save your butt after having messed and shown your role as mafia. Also, Aril, you seem to be very quick in defending him, while not wanting to accuse anyone. Are you afraid your role will be too obvious if you accuse someone? Also, what reason do you have to defend him? What has he done for you? The only reason would be because you are both mafia, and you are trying to look out for him. He has plenty of reasons to be a townie. Don't even think about that kind of McCarthy Bullshit this early in the game. Anyone voting this early deserves some measure of suspicion. Also, I am schwasted, so this may not make a lot of sense. (White Russians are the best!) But. If you are new to mafia, welcome. A quick word of advice: Think before you act. Those people who have already voted are acting too hastily. a 40 man game is much more about reasoning than putting pressure on someone. And the only reason you would vote this early is to put pressure on someone. Things to note about this game: Detectives instead of watchers: This gives us hard checks (with a few exceptions) on who is scum/town. Town needs to know this information, and we need to keep it out of the hands of mafia. For new players, this is where crumbing comes in. Crumbing is leaving clues about what you want to say. The best crumbs will be deciphered by us and not by scum. However, crumbs can be used a different way, in that you leave crumbs no one can decipher and then reveal multiple crumbs later. This is good if you are new because often times no one can understand your crumbs anyways since you don't have experience. Vigilantes: Need to not use your shots immediately. You are MUCH more likely to hit a civilian than scum at first, and also more likely to caus confusion. Those are the two most important roles this game. Regarding discussion: Freeloader is probably not scum. He is new and likely inexperienced. However, just to be sure, a cop needs to check him tonight. Which reminds me: If a miller is roleblocked, what does he return to investiagtion? Anyways, many good ideas floating around for a newbie game :p Keep up the good work I believe it is always good to start off the game by knowing who's good, who's new, and who's annoying. Some people read previously played games to get a better read, but as this is a new game, most won't look further than this. A nice long post that defends the very quick accusations against Freeloader625, a pretty neutral post. One of his first posts is to warn people to not bandwagon early on in the game especially with such little evidence. Other than Aril he’s one of the earliest people to defend Freeloader. I would say that’s more than neutral and obviously pro-town behavior. + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 16:29 iGrok wrote: Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 16:27 aprudds wrote: On June 05 2011 16:19 iGrok wrote: On June 05 2011 16:11 heist wrote: On June 05 2011 15:15 Treadmill wrote: As I said earlier, "we should keep an eye on Freeloader". But that's it. There will certainly be much more conversation before the end of the first day. A few thoughts: There are 8 mafia but do we know how much killing power they have? If 6 normally get 3 kills/night would it be sensible to extrapolate that 8 get 4? How do you know how many mafia there are? I thought role counts are not disclosed. Lead by example The most important questions Must be answered now If you have a question regarding the game setup, ask it like so: How does Mafia KP work? Is it #/2, a fixed number, etc? You ask with green not blue. Olol. No haiku this time. Pardon the wino in the corner. Yes, it is green and not blue. EBWOP: Change to green. O shit, a post without a Haiku but pretty irrelevant at this time. I agree. Irrelevant. + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 16:29 iGrok wrote: Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 16:27 aprudds wrote: On June 05 2011 16:19 iGrok wrote: On June 05 2011 16:11 heist wrote: On June 05 2011 15:15 Treadmill wrote: As I said earlier, "we should keep an eye on Freeloader". But that's it. There will certainly be much more conversation before the end of the first day. A few thoughts: There are 8 mafia but do we know how much killing power they have? If 6 normally get 3 kills/night would it be sensible to extrapolate that 8 get 4? How do you know how many mafia there are? I thought role counts are not disclosed. Lead by example The most important questions Must be answered now If you have a question regarding the game setup, ask it like so: How does Mafia KP work? Is it #/2, a fixed number, etc? You ask with green not blue. Olol. No haiku this time. Pardon the wino in the corner. Yes, it is green and not blue. EBWOP: Change to green. Another irrelevant post, but continuing to have a presence. Important for people to see him. Insignificant. + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 18:14 iGrok wrote: Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 18:07 Kurumi wrote: On June 05 2011 13:47 Treadmill wrote: It is a good spot, aprudds. We should keep an eye on freeloader625. Jimbooo, we do have to lynch somebody. Being "hasty" isn't really a concern. And somebody with next to no evidence against them is a better lynch than everyone else with no evidence against them at all. Still, 48 hours yet. What? Bad lynches are good lynches? Are You a stupid Rat or You're a Noobtown? Lynch is the most IMPORTANT tool town gets. ##vote Treadmill Two threads, Two places Vote in one, not the other Or you may mislead. Just fyi, voting in the Thread and not in the voting thread is considered scummy at higher levels of play. I will of course excuse you since you are new, but I'm trying to help you out here - if you're going to vote, then vote, but make sure you know what you're doing. Make sure you read my post. Also, again with the bullshit McCarthyism - This is VERY anti-town, and if you're a menace to town, promoting anti-town play, its in our best interest to remove you from the game if we have no strong mafia targets. tl;dr: CTFO + Show Spoiler + Chill The Fuck Out Starts to get interesting somewhat. Note he denounces Kurumi's valid post against Jimboo (who I previously considered if he was mafia, but believe he is just a very-almost-too active townie). Also accuses Kurumi of being anti-town. You read this wrong. Kurumi criticizes Treadmill who states that lynching somebody with some evidence of scum is better than lynching someone without any evidence. Yes, he accuses Kurumi as being anti-town but you yourself admit to having some thought of Kurumi being mafia. We can all see iGrok’s reasoning (after all I think all everyone at some point has considered Kurumi as mafia). Kurumi is acting really aggressive, is quick to vote, and is pointing fingers everywhere. Now none of this is conclusive of being mafia, but it is certainly not pro-town behavior which iGrok is pointing out. Nothing scummy about iGrok at this point. + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 18:21 iGrok wrote: Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 18:16 Kurumi wrote: On June 05 2011 15:16 Lafali wrote: On June 05 2011 15:09 omgCRAZY wrote: With this being a newbies game I wouldn't be surprised that someone wants to get a handle on the game. What I find interesting is how aprudds was so quick to get everyones attention focused on someone else and how the game has barely started and yet cherubael and Jimboo are already throwing out votes. His subsequent posts were fishy. Due to that I hopped on the voting bandwagon along with them. Its a 40 player game, I'm sure we can afford a few mislynches. Regardless, we should continue scumhunting. We do have 48 hours. Yeah,two SHORT posts about his SC2 mafia experience,fishy as heck."I hopped on voting bandwagon" What? Only Scum bandwagons. "I'm sure we can afford a few mislynches" WHAT THE FUCK? No,we can't afford mislynch for the sake of mislynching. Someone gives red vibes? WE LYNCH HIM. Someone made dumb question once,while Scummy Rats like You run around and we should lynch him? I will drop Treadmill for now,because You're infinitely more scummy than him. The more that you yell, The more attention you get. Keep up the noise, Joe [/sarcasm] Even if you are town, and its too early to throw accusations out, you're playing TERRIBLY anti-town. Again, Chill. Again makes Kurumi out to be very anti-town. Yes, he calls out Kurumi again. Is this suspicious? No. iGrok is staying consistent with his warnings to Kurumi that his wild accusations and rude posts only hurt his credibility if he is town. + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 18:31 iGrok wrote: Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 18:25 Kurumi wrote: EDWOP: I write "You" with capital Y because I feel like and it is Polish thing. I call Scum/people I am suspicious of Rats. Get over it. No haiku for this, The point is too short for one. Just a simple note Do shit like this, you're going to piss people off. Pissing people off is a good way to die. Dying does not help your team at all (at least in this game). You know this, you've played several games. Don't fuck over the newbies because you want to be obnoxious. As far as your "slips" go: Lafali, from what I can tell, is a newbie who bandwagonned, read my post warning against bandwagons, and unvoted. Treadmill: He said we should wait, and every point of evidence is important no matter how small. Great reason to vote him. Point grew after I wrote the haiku :p Starts getting interesting. He defends Lafali as a nooby and defends Treadmill (who begin to reason as scum lately). Yes he defended lafali but at this early point in the game lafali is not clear mafia. This can go either way depending on which propaganda mill you subscribe to. If you assume he’s town,perhaps he’s gratified that someone listened to his advice about bandwagoning and unvoted. If he is town, lafali can very well look like an unexperienced townie who just voted too early. If you assume he’s mafia, then of course you’ll make the leap from “iGrok defended a member of the mafia” therefore it’s very likely that he is mafia. His defense of lafali is inconclusive at best of whether or not he’s mafia or not. Don’t read too much into it. + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 23:54 iGrok wrote: Pay no heed to us Prior warnings of misdeeds. Vote without a post. again, [/sarcasm] Drazerk, you did NOT just read the thread, SEE that people were warned against voting without posting, and then vote without posting. Right? Calls out Drazerk for not posting before voting. Boring. Yes. It’s boring, but it’s important for the town to pressure people who vote without any explanation. + Show Spoiler + On June 06 2011 07:57 iGrok wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 04:49 GGQ wrote: On June 06 2011 03:44 gtrsrs wrote: hi everyone i'm back my thoughts so far: - jesus christ, 7 pages of nothing - freeloader asked an innocuous question that was stupid but not scummy IMO in fact he made it quite clear the reasons he was asking: On June 05 2011 12:44 freeloader625 wrote: Omg I'm so excited for this. I read all the rules twice and just want to ask to anyone willing to answer (before the game starts) since these were not answered in the thread rules: 1) Since PMs are not allowed, how would mafia communicate with each other? 2) Once someone dies whether it be by votes or mafia hit, will their roles be revealed? and then everyone ignored the fact that he asked another innocuous question too. clinging to false evidence ITT? - unfortunately it looks like a slip so i can see him getting lynched today - if he flips town, we'll need to re-evaluate the people who pushed for his lynch - dude who keeps posting haikus, please stop, that's thread derailment and very scummy. i can't even read your posts. i do not think there are any posting restrictions so only post what you HAVE to - that being said, i'm going to vote for you because i don't want to jump on the freeloader bandwagon (nor do i want to try and counterbandwagon onto aprudds for calling him out) - voting in this thread is not scummy, whoever said that. voting in this thread helps us keep track of bandwagons and reasoning behind votes. please vote in this thread when you vote in the voting thread. - there are too many posts in this thread. you probably don't have anything to say at this point. don't post for posting's sake. when you do post, please make long, well-thought-out posts. short posts derail the thread. i think one of the pages had like 10 one-line posts and that's not acceptable. it allows mafia to "blend in" with the town by posting similarly. - posts that have words but don't say anything are scummy - kurumi is naturally an annoying, accusatory spammer, don't read into it too much (also no offense to kurumi) - from what i've seen of his play in other games, jackal is a strong player. don't let his abrasive personality cloud your mind from his usually very-informative, rational posts. at the same time, please use your own judgment when reading his posts and decide for yourself if you come to the same conclusions. if he is mafia he will use his "upstandingness" to sheep us around. ##vote: iGrok You didn't actually mention iGrok in your post, but you voted for him. More explaining please? My Final Haiku: I guess fun is not allowed. Srs Bsns. You, sir, have no sense of fun. So let me get this straight - your reason for voting me is "Thread Derailment" and not wanting to vote for treadmill? You do realize you could just -wait- to vote, right? Honestly, those are some of the worst reasons to vote that I can think of. Particularly since your post is, aside from your "evidence" against me, just a regurgitation of other posts. Post some analysis, and good analysis not just bullshit like the above post. You may be thinking, "Why haven't you (iGrok) posted strong analysis yet then?" And knowng you, and probably kurumi as well, there probably a "Scum!" (or "Rat!") thrown in there. The reason is that last night there was nothing to analyze yet, but I saw that the town was disintegrating really fast and I had to step up to try to stop that from happening. May analysis will come after 24 hours of game time, no sooner or later. I will focus on one person, selected without bias, and attempt to ascertain through their posts what their alignment is. Anyone who remembers me from Experiment Mafia 2, I was Pink2 - You remember my analysis of Blue, and how strong that was. In closing, BE PATIENT. Talk, yes, Discuss, yes. Accuse, especially with as little actual substance has happened so far, no. Again getting into a good towny position. Getting into a good towny position is what a townie wants to do. Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 08:14 blackone wrote: Well, posting cute little haikus and being funny can lead to the suspicion that you have some kind of interest in being considered funny and friendly. Also, if you don't agree to that, why will you stop doing that now? It's not like gtrsrs can impose rules on how you have to post. A mildly relevant post now as I am putting together evidence for us to consider if iGrok is scum. iGrok then tells him it was his last haiku. Vain explains that iGrok just wants attention and iGrok thanks him. iGrok points out an edited post to mods. iGrok makes a small tip on quoting. iGrok tells someone not to report to mods but to let us self-moderate. These last several posts aren't exactly worth much, but could serve to make it further clear that he is an experienced player to say the least. CrjNinja posts some good analysis and condemns Lafali and naming Freeloader and Kurumi green. iGrok asks Crj's opinion of himself (of iGrok). Crj says he is an experienced player and says iGrok might be green but wants to wait until he makes any worth while post. All I can really gleam from this is that he’s staying consistent to what’s he’s posted before. And yes, he is using the experience card. Is this necessarily a scummy thing to do? No. It can help him if he’s town OR if he’s mafia. And from our past experience with Jackal, we all realize what a powerful tool a claim to experience can be. So again, this purely depends on which bias one uses to analyze iGrok. So far we have learned that iGrok first day has been utterly passive and is following his statement that he will not post anything worthwhile until after day 1, but has instead been using his time to get in our good graces by not stepping on any one's shoes as he wants to be liked by everyone. Currently (at the time of the above posts) I am kind of annoyed by him, but he seems like a very good player (even though he hasn't actually posted anything). I don’t agree at all he’s being passive. He’s putting himself out there as being pro-town. Personally I think he fancies himself as the voice of reason amid the chaos of the freeloader bandwaggoning. Nothing wrong with that. Also, the claim that he’s careful not to step on anyone’s shoes is also incorrect. He had no problem rebuking Kurumi early on. Overall, I found him to be consistent with his posts and also pro-town. I can already hear your whispers of “maybe too pro-town”. But again I stress this entirely depends on which bias you take. Maybe he’s pro-town because he is town? iGrok now posts about how he will post a big analysis soon. iGrok explains how redFF isn't actually playing the game. WARNING BIG POST – finally iGrok's big analysis post. This should be fun. + Show Spoiler + On June 06 2011 15:18 iGrok wrote: Its time for some analysis. For Science. EDITED MY OWN SPOILERS SO YOU CAN SKIP THE NOOB GUIDE + Show Spoiler + This post will be long. And split into two parts. The first part will be setup analysis. The second part will be a post-by-post analysis of Kurumi. There will be no tl;dr. Welcome to Mafia ^^. Let's begin. Setup: 40 players. 1/5 are scum. Scum have 4 kp N1, and D1 is rarely a scum lynch (sad but true). However, there are medics and vets, so assume D2: 36 players - 28 Town 8 scum, or .222 scum. Now we're getting somewhere. Because of the scum %, which is slightly high for a large game (large games tend to help scum get lost in the noise), and based on Town traditionally having more PRs anyways, I guarantee tht Town has a greater number of PRs. Probably 150-250%. I'll analyze Scum roles first so we can get a rough estimate of the number of blue roles. 8 Scum. 1 GF. There are definitely not more than 50% PRs on the red team. That would be absurd for a newbie-friendly game. Therefore, 2-3 RBs. 3 RBs is a little high, so I'll guesstimate 2. This leave us with 3 PRs on scum. Blue Roles Detective: In this game, Detectives (Also known as Cops and DTs) check Role in addition to alignment. This makes DT a VERY powerful role. However, there is probably more than 1 - having only one makes the game to easy to be swung with a lucky snipe. Therefore, I'd guess there are 2 DTs. Medics and Vets: Lately, theres been a tendency to display both but only give out one or the other of these roles. In this case, however, I will assume both. Likely 2 Medics (for the same reason as 2 DTs - if one gets sniped thats just bad luck) and 1 Vet. Veterans kind of get their own kind of weighting when it comes to balancing teams. You know it will be useful if town is losing, but it does nothing active to help them. Veterans help to stabilize the game and make it less swing-y, which is exactly what you want for a newbie game. Lastly, Vigilantes. Knowing Meapak, theres at least one, probably 2 Vigilantes. Vigilantes can be the town saviors. Particularly in a game like this, the faster we can whittle down Mafia KP the better off we'll be. Vigis should take note of who presses for and opposes a lynch, and when we see the results, act accordingly - probably NOT before N2 though. Note that I do not count vets toward Power Role balance because they are so weak. Also Vigis only count for 75% of a PR because they can do more harm than good. Role cops, on the other hand, count for 150% of a PR. Yes, they are that strong. Black Roles Traditionally, Black roles are 3rd party, but since there aren't any sks, I'm counting Miller as a black role. Miller is the bane of any cop. Every check you make that comes back Goon is less usefull. You can't confirm that he's anti town (though feel free to pressure them and see if they crack!). Millers count as -50% of a PR to Town. I would be VERY surprised if there were more than 1 Miller in this game, and certainly not more than two. So, in summary: 5 Goons, 2 RBs, 1 GF = 3 PRs 2 DTs, 2 Medics, 1 Vet, 2 Vigis = 6.5 PRs 1 Miller = -.5 PRs Total of 6:3 - Perfect - 200% Is that guaranteed to be accurate? No. But its probably pretty close. Now on to Analysis! Today's subject is Kurumi. The black does not mean I think he's a miller, it means I don't know yet. So, post by post: Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 18:03 Kurumi wrote: Freeloader tries to justify SC2 Mafia as real Mafia experience,I'd go with noobtown,yeah. Now lets sniff for potential bandwagoners... Manages to insult Freeloader and defend him at the same time. His next move, searching for bandwagonners, is a good idea, although its really not too hard to search through the 6 post long vote thread :p. Nothing to really note here except attitude. Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 18:07 Kurumi wrote: On June 05 2011 13:47 Treadmill wrote: It is a good spot, aprudds. We should keep an eye on freeloader625. Jimbooo, we do have to lynch somebody. Being "hasty" isn't really a concern. And somebody with next to no evidence against them is a better lynch than everyone else with no evidence against them at all. Still, 48 hours yet. What? Bad lynches are good lynches? Are You a stupid Rat or You're a Noobtown? Lynch is the most IMPORTANT tool town gets. ##vote Treadmill This is either a misread or a mislead. I immediately noted 2 things here: the ridiculously aggressive attitude was one. Treadmill is saying here that we need to use every bit of evidence, and that at the moment we had very little but it was enough to start. I might not have completely agreed with Treadmill, but I didn't think he was scum because of it. Kurumi is apparently convinced enough by this post that Treadmill is scum to vote - after he's yelled at others for voting based on little to no evidence. Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 18:11 Kurumi wrote: On June 05 2011 14:12 Lafali wrote: Good catch by aprudds. A townie wouldn't need to know that information. However, he could be new. There are 40 people in this game though, so its not like its mylo. My God,so many Rats running between my legs! No,we can't lynch the guy because of one thing. We should be suspicious WHY the bandwagon formed so FAST on such shitty evidence. It is not mylo,but we must use lynch to it's best. Literally this is what happened: Lafali says "aprudds has a point, but it could mean nothing. Fortunately, its not the end of the world if we fuck up." Kurumi continues his hyper-aggression. Lafali's post meant nothing - he may as well have not posted. Based on this, Kurumi accuses Lafali of being scum.+ Show Spoiler + Granted, it was a useless post - a scummy thing to do with good player meta, but as a newbie Lafali probably felt (s)he should contribute something. Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 18:16 Kurumi wrote: On June 05 2011 15:16 Lafali wrote: On June 05 2011 15:09 omgCRAZY wrote: With this being a newbies game I wouldn't be surprised that someone wants to get a handle on the game. What I find interesting is how aprudds was so quick to get everyones attention focused on someone else and how the game has barely started and yet cherubael and Jimboo are already throwing out votes. His subsequent posts were fishy. Due to that I hopped on the voting bandwagon along with them. Its a 40 player game, I'm sure we can afford a few mislynches. Regardless, we should continue scumhunting. We do have 48 hours. Yeah,two SHORT posts about his SC2 mafia experience,fishy as heck."I hopped on voting bandwagon" What? Only Scum bandwagons. "I'm sure we can afford a few mislynches" WHAT THE FUCK? No,we can't afford mislynch for the sake of mislynching. Someone gives red vibes? WE LYNCH HIM. Someone made dumb question once,while Scummy Rats like You run around and we should lynch him? I will drop Treadmill for now,because You're infinitely more scummy than him. This should be pretty self-explanatory. + Show Spoiler [In case its not,] + More hyper-aggression Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 18:23 Kurumi wrote: On June 05 2011 18:21 iGrok wrote: On June 05 2011 18:16 Kurumi wrote: On June 05 2011 15:16 Lafali wrote: On June 05 2011 15:09 omgCRAZY wrote: With this being a newbies game I wouldn't be surprised that someone wants to get a handle on the game. What I find interesting is how aprudds was so quick to get everyones attention focused on someone else and how the game has barely started and yet cherubael and Jimboo are already throwing out votes. His subsequent posts were fishy. Due to that I hopped on the voting bandwagon along with them. Its a 40 player game, I'm sure we can afford a few mislynches. Regardless, we should continue scumhunting. We do have 48 hours. Yeah,two SHORT posts about his SC2 mafia experience,fishy as heck."I hopped on voting bandwagon" What? Only Scum bandwagons. "I'm sure we can afford a few mislynches" WHAT THE FUCK? No,we can't afford mislynch for the sake of mislynching. Someone gives red vibes? WE LYNCH HIM. Someone made dumb question once,while Scummy Rats like You run around and we should lynch him? I will drop Treadmill for now,because You're infinitely more scummy than him. The more that you yell, The more attention you get. Keep up the noise, Joe [/sarcasm] Even if you are town, and its too early to throw accusations out, you're playing TERRIBLY anti-town. Again, Chill. Because I draw discussion from terrible freeloader bandwagon? I don't throw accusations out,they've slipped already. Treadmill and Lafali both advocate mislynches and not thinking before lynching. They hopped on bandwagon and they will. This is actually a very interesting post. As you can see, Kurumi is mis-representing both Lafali and Treadmill. Neither of them "advocate mis-lynches", they simply stated that a mislynch was ok, and even probable. Neither of them are anti-town, and Treadmill is actually playing pro-town. Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 18:31 Kurumi wrote: On June 05 2011 18:28 Sprungjeezy wrote: Kurumi, you come off as a towny that is reading too far into too little. It's important to remember that this game is full of beginners and important to remember people will try to take advantage of that, but people will still make mistakes such as hopping on a bandwagon without really thinking into it. Time for bed for me though. Cya tomorrow. No. Scum wants Town to mislynch. Scum wants Town not to think about other suspects. Scum wants to make Town jump on one bandwagon and deny EVERY discussion about anything else. They are doing that,not only but they're advocating that as a good thing. This is a very true post. That is precisely what scum wants. Its important to note that scum also wants to cause as much chaos in the town as possible as well. Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 18:33 Kurumi wrote: On June 05 2011 18:31 iGrok wrote: On June 05 2011 18:25 Kurumi wrote: EDWOP: I write "You" with capital Y because I feel like and it is Polish thing. I call Scum/people I am suspicious of Rats. Get over it. No haiku for this, The point is too short for one. Just a simple note Do shit like this, you're going to piss people off. Pissing people off is a good way to die. Dying does not help your team at all (at least in this game). You know this, you've played several games. Don't fuck over the newbies because you want to be obnoxious. As far as your "slips" go: Lafali, from what I can tell, is a newbie who bandwagonned, read my post warning against bandwagons, and unvoted. Treadmill: He said we should wait, and every point of evidence is important no matter how small. Great reason to vote him. Point grew after I wrote the haiku :p Scum will unvote after someone called it out to remain 'unsuspicious". Also why the heck Town would lynch person generating discussion and bringing scummy suspects? Scum would like to lynch me,but they can just kill me at night. Just read it. Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 20:52 Kurumi wrote: On June 05 2011 20:29 Benjef wrote: ##Vote Treadmill On June 05 2011 20:30 Benjef wrote: ##Unvote Treadmill ##Vote: freeloader625 You better post there. The one super-pro-town thing he's done all game! Catching silent voters is SUPER important, particularly in a large game like this. Show nested quote + On June 05 2011 21:40 Kurumi wrote: @Pyo (Pyo voted for Kurumi and pointed out that Kurumi got lynched D1 last game) Because Your arguments are dumb I am going to ignore You. A tip: In mafia XXXIX I was spreading chaos in the Town,also I was really scummy. I wasn't talkative,I was spammy. If You want any meta reads,go check PYPI and PTP. Pyo calls him out, Kurumi admits to spreading chaos in the town the game before. Pyo asks Kurumi for a list of "experienced players" On June 05 2011 22:45 Kurumi wrote: Jackal58 - he is very good GGQ - I think he is there for at least short while Me Impervious from replacements played a bit there too gtrsrs played one game I think. You're not going to participating in lynching the most scummy player Pyo? While I understand place holder votes You need to know that people like me will remember that. I want to see a good post after You're back. Jackal58 is good. GGQ is good, borderline very good (no offense Jackal ♥). Vain is good. I'd like to think I'm decent. Impervious is... interesting haha. Kurumi has played 3 games, and Jackal called him out later on. Whats important here is that Kurumi lumps himself in with very good players that town should listen to. He's attempting to establish a position of power for himself. On June 05 2011 23:20 Kurumi wrote: By the most scummy player I meant Your suspicion. An example of good post would be an analysis pointing out the biggest slips of player X leading Town in a Scum lynch.Remember though: there's nothing wrong about being wrong(unless You're redtooth,then You commit suicide on Day 3) A good post could be summing up who attacked who and who defended who + Your thoughts about it. Everything that generates discussion is good. You must remember though,that without good evidence there's probably no point in bringing something new,because this will cause chaos. Pyo,it is too fast for scum to bus too. Freeloader's situation is really uncertain. His small,but bandwagon is based on shitty evidence. "He asked a question,no townie would ask it!" Think for a second. What would happen if Freeloader was scum? Someone would pm him and tell him everything he needed to know,makes sense? Hell yes. We aren't that vindictive,don't worry <3 But there are players who are magnets,namely Radfield and Kavdragon,who like to die Day/Night 1. Kurumi hasn't been here that long, but he's clearly read up on his mafia. He knows the names of some older players. He is correct in that all discussion is good discussion, but (IMO)there are certain methods of generating it that do no good to town because they cause too much chaos. Still, point in his favor though. On June 05 2011 23:53 Kurumi wrote: Bussing is when You vote for lynch/kill Your Mafia buddy to make Yourself less suspicious/earn town cred,mostly happens when there's no way to save him/perform some gambit or wicked trickery. Well,it is rather safe to assume that anyone who got assigned as Godfather is going to help his newbie Mafia bros as fast as possible - he is probably one of the "better" players,but this might be a mislead. Also as far I remember in my PYPI pm I had mafia list and that I can PM them etc. etc.,while it wasn't a "noob game" I strongly believe that there everything a new player should know about his role/alignment. Not much to say about this. Slightly pro-town I guess? Kinda obvious stuff, but I'm giving people a pass on obvious stuff this game because its a newbie game and so not everything IS obvious. On June 06 2011 00:07 Kurumi wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 00:01 aprudds wrote: On June 05 2011 23:20 Kurumi wrote: By the most scummy player I meant Your suspicion. An example of good post would be an analysis pointing out the biggest slips of player X leading Town in a Scum lynch.Remember though: there's nothing wrong about being wrong(unless You're redtooth,then You commit suicide on Day 3) A good post could be summing up who attacked who and who defended who + Your thoughts about it. Everything that generates discussion is good. You must remember though,that without good evidence there's probably no point in bringing something new,because this will cause chaos. Pyo,it is too fast for scum to bus too. Freeloader's situation is really uncertain. His small,but bandwagon is based on shitty evidence. "He asked a question,no townie would ask it!" Think for a second. What would happen if Freeloader was scum? Someone would pm him and tell him everything he needed to know,makes sense? Hell yes. We aren't that vindictive,don't worry <3 But there are players who are magnets,namely Radfield and Kavdragon,who like to die Day/Night 1. Kurumi, you're talking for the sake of talking and stirring up too many accusations without any discussion or analysis. Talk is good, blind accusations are bad. This makes chaos and makes it hard to focus on one thing at a time. (AGAIN) There isn't much to go on right now. Here's what happened: 1 guy asked a dumb question. Scum Scale: *---- 3 guys bandwaggonned. Scum Scale: **--- 2-3 people throw around un-called-for accusations. Scum Scale: ***-- Oh, and Pyo called you out on being an ass. If you are an experienced player like you say, you should know that rapidly throwing out multiple low impact accusations just lead to you getting ignored or lynched :/ @Pyo You need somewhere to get a discussion started. The accusation was arbitrary, but it's the best thing there was after the roles got pmed and before the game started. After everyone starts posting their mind on this there will be a greater pool of posts to look over. My dumbness meter went over 9000. Before saying "HURR DURR YOU DID NOTHING" read my posts. I brought evidence why I think they're scum. aprudds (the originator of the whole "Freeloader Debacle") gives a nice, concise analysis of whats gone on in the game, and (in the @Pyo section), explains what his reasoning was for the first accusation. + Show Spoiler [Mini aprudds read] + IMO, it seems that aprudds and Kurumi actually have similar philosophies, its just that aprudds doesn't piss off as many people along the way. On June 06 2011 00:18 Kurumi wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 00:08 Jackal58 wrote: I believe this is Kurumi's 4th game. Maybe counting a mini game. He was lynched day one in the first game I played with him. He has outed himself as our SK in the second game I've played with him. Don't assume he's experienced. He's not. I played in XXXIX then PYPI then PTP now there. This is Kurumi's prior experience. Note that in one of these games he was lynched D1. Vain steps in to defend Treadmill and aprudds. On June 06 2011 00:27 Kurumi wrote: @Vain Let aprudds defend himself. On June 06 2011 00:30 Kurumi wrote: EDWOP: I meant,let him play by himself,he does not need Your help. The evidence is simple: They support bad lynches,they say that we can waste lynches,they want Town to make quick decision which they didn't think about enough We've been over this - No they don't. On June 06 2011 03:41 Kurumi wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 03:29 Jackal58 wrote: On June 06 2011 01:27 DeMorcerf wrote:I do not understand what you mean by this, sorry. Can you clarify whether "insane" is a good thing or a bad thing in this context; and what does "tunnel the roster" mean? Insane as in crazy. Not good at all. Tunneling is when you pick one player and call him/her scum for the entire game. Kurumi has taken it to an entirely new level. Sorry but Palmar and RedFF are better at tunneling everyone than me >:C Tunnelling is still bad -_-. However, I don't think Kurumi is tunnelling this game. He's just accusing everyone who disagrees with him of being scum. On June 06 2011 03:52 Kurumi wrote: Hey guys voting on freeloader bandwagon,are You willing to post? (Drazerk,grush57) Continuing to prod Silent Voters. Pro-town. Really unexpected. On June 06 2011 04:05 Kurumi wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 04:02 Lafali wrote: On June 05 2011 18:16 Kurumi wrote: On June 05 2011 15:16 Lafali wrote: On June 05 2011 15:09 omgCRAZY wrote: With this being a newbies game I wouldn't be surprised that someone wants to get a handle on the game. What I find interesting is how aprudds was so quick to get everyones attention focused on someone else and how the game has barely started and yet cherubael and Jimboo are already throwing out votes. His subsequent posts were fishy. Due to that I hopped on the voting bandwagon along with them. Its a 40 player game, I'm sure we can afford a few mislynches. Regardless, we should continue scumhunting. We do have 48 hours. Yeah,two SHORT posts about his SC2 mafia experience,fishy as heck."I hopped on voting bandwagon" What? Only Scum bandwagons. "I'm sure we can afford a few mislynches" WHAT THE FUCK? No,we can't afford mislynch for the sake of mislynching. Someone gives red vibes? WE LYNCH HIM. Someone made dumb question once,while Scummy Rats like You run around and we should lynch him? I will drop Treadmill for now,because You're infinitely more scummy than him. I'm new to mafia forum games like this and mostly used to smaller and faster-paced ones where taking a risk on a mislynch is pretty common as long as the game is not mislynch-lose. The subsequent posts from treadmill seemed fishy and people started to vote for him and at that point he was the only one looking suspicious to me. However, after reading more into the thread it seemed like a bad idea to vote so early, and it would be better to wait for any tells, and then on day two, cop reports. Treadmill is suspicious to You? You both are doing the same thing. Also thanks for excuse,I enjoy eating them. Because they're yummy. Why would DT report on Day 2? It is an easy target for Mafia,even when med protected they can just stack on him. Why are You spreading bad ideas? Kurumi points out that DTs shouldn't report on D2 since mafia can stack kills. This is an excellent point - DTs should wait until they have something useful to report before revealing themselves. I don't understand the first half of this post, so I'm ignoring it lol. On June 06 2011 05:37 Kurumi wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 05:33 supersoft wrote: On June 06 2011 01:32 TheAwesomeAll wrote: DeMorcef thanks a lot, how do you check it? or do you just remember? + Show Spoiler + 1. Munk-E 2. blackone amazingxkcd 6. teamsolid 8. Alderan 10. Drazerk has voted but not posted 15. TranceStorm 18. monsterDrakar 21. supersoft 23. Xedat 24. grush57 25. Date_Reaper 26. CjrNinja 33. Clicker 34. Kairo 36. gtrsrs 38. tdAdonis 40. GGQ UPDATED LIST plz ignore the previous one, credits to morcerf <3 this list doesn't tell anything about the people on the list... Maybe they're just lurking like I was. You can delete me from that list btw. This post can be treated like it never happened,You know? What are Your thoughts on freeloader bandwagon? Who's Your scum suspect #1? Asking questions, its been a bit since he last posted an opinion of his own (aside from other people are "Rats"). Nothing really here.+ Show Spoiler [Tiny supersoft read here] + Admitting to lurking and doing nothing but saying 'hey look I'm not lurking' is terrible. On June 06 2011 05:54 Kurumi wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 05:52 supersoft wrote: On June 06 2011 05:37 Kurumi wrote: On June 06 2011 05:33 supersoft wrote: On June 06 2011 01:32 TheAwesomeAll wrote: DeMorcef thanks a lot, how do you check it? or do you just remember? + Show Spoiler + 1. Munk-E 2. blackone amazingxkcd 6. teamsolid 8. Alderan 10. Drazerk has voted but not posted 15. TranceStorm 18. monsterDrakar 21. supersoft 23. Xedat 24. grush57 25. Date_Reaper 26. CjrNinja 33. Clicker 34. Kairo 36. gtrsrs 38. tdAdonis 40. GGQ UPDATED LIST plz ignore the previous one, credits to morcerf <3 this list doesn't tell anything about the people on the list... Maybe they're just lurking like I was. You can delete me from that list btw. This post can be treated like it never happened,You know? What are Your thoughts on freeloader bandwagon? Who's Your scum suspect #1? I don't have a scum suspect on day1. It's too early to judge anyone. It's just not reasonable to randomlynch someone in the first round, before we got to know each other a little bit. We can't no lynch. There needs to be a lynch every Day. True. And thats the last post he made. It may be time related. That was ~10 hours ago, possibly sleeping. So, what can we take from all this? Kurumi is a very aggressive player known for causing chaos. He has cast suspicion on many people, mostly those who argued with him. He has also thrown in some genuinely Pro-town things into his posting. Its very difficult to make a final call, but... I believe that Kurumi is Scum. In my opinion, his Pro-town points were thrown in at random or very obvious to remove suspicion from him. However, I must take into account that I may have been biased, as well as his pro-town things. Because of this, I do not advocate a Kurumi Lynch D1. Instead, I think that Kurumi should be our prime DT target. Knowledge of his alignment will undoubtedly help us determine who is scum and who is town. GGQ, Jackal, Vain, I'd particularly appreciate it if you would weigh in here. To new players, this is a complete, thorough analysis of a player. You don't have to do things like this. But you'll be a much better player if you do, even if you don't post it (there are times not to, like if you realize someone is a DT or Medic). Go forth and analyze! Now most of this post is directed at Kurumi who I feel is enemies with iGrok at this time, and assuming iGrok is GF, he doesn't want Kurumi to continue tunneling himself so he shifts focus to Kurumi. As iGrok doesn't want to appear suspicious himself he suggests a DT check Kurumi. Some of your points are absurd. He doesn’t want to appear suspicious so he asks a dt check on Kurumi. What… did you want him to ask for a dt check on himself? Let’s break it down. If he’s gf, he would welcome a dt. If he’s town, he knows that he himself is town and knows that utilizing a dt check on himself would be a waste. You assume he accuses Kurumi to put the public scrutiny on Kurumi and off himself. Think about this way. Before he posted this: Kurumi, pyo, gtrsrs are tunneling him. After this is posted: Kurumi, pyo, gtrsrs are still tunneling him. If he wanted to stop the pressure from tunneling, this was not meant to accomplish that. Assume he’s town. He provides a real analysis of someone we’d all like to know better, a high-interest person: Kurumi, probably one the most wild-card player in the game. Also the immediate claims of fishing for blues is bullshit for reasons already stated on other posts. It was just a weak excuse to tunnel someone even further. Now I would like to point out this out Show nested quote + “Jackal58 is good. GGQ is good, borderline very good (no offense Jackal ♥). Vain is good. I'd like to think I'm decent. Impervious is... interesting haha. Kurumi has played 3 games, and Jackal called him out later on. Whats important here is that Kurumi lumps himself in with very good players that town should listen to. He's attempting to establish a position of power for himself. “ This is what I call true irony. This whole game until now has been iGrok expressing his experience and not stepping on anyone’s toes and making the town does not act hastily in their lynch. He is letting us make the first mistake (with information, not lynches) by not posting anything worth reading (he can't slip anything important if he never posts anything important while we make accusations and force each other to defend ourselves.. I personally thought that the analysis on iGrok was a worthwhile read…. But anyways as I have stated before, an establishment of greater experience will help someone regardless of whether or not he is mafia. If you want to stubborn minded about it and believe iGrok is gf without a doubt, why aren’t also calling out Kurumi who did the same thing. Immediately after this is posted gtrsrs calls iGrok out on still being his prime suspicion even though he provided a long analysis. + Show Spoiler + On June 06 2011 15:40 iGrok wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 15:31 gtrsrs wrote: for the record, fishing for blues is scummy Is this in response to anything? you're still my prime FoS, iGrok, no matter how long your post is With how quickly you jumped on me based on nothing, I'd expect nothing less. Perhaps though, you should read the post instead of remarking at its length. And then perhaps you should run an analysis of me. In fact, I'd like to see you do a post-by-post analysis of me. Will you do that? You might be surprised at what you find. For example, in Experiment Mafia II, I ran a post-by-post analysis of the player "Blue1", who I believed to be quite scummy and who was under a lot of suspicion at the time. However, upon going through it, I was forced to conclude that he was actually Town. Town won on Day 3. iGrok then asks for a post by post analysis of himself – which until now has been literally 100% white noise and even this analysis is an extremely passive against Kurumi. iGrok now posts that hes asking flamewheel to edit the formatting so he doesn't get in trouble and his posts looks prettier. iGrok then states that his PR formulas aren't 100% accurate, but are generally pretty useful. I think you and I have different definitions of passive. Also you claiming he’s passive is contrary to your argument that iGrok is putting himself out there as a person to be trusted based on experience. Let’s be frank here. iGrok wants gtrsrs to do a post by post analysis himself. Lets construe it as if iGrok is a town. iGrok is confident in his alignment so he is unafraid to ask someone to do an analysis on himself. Also he knows that gtrsrs has pretty much nothing conclusive on him. I suggest everyone read through pyo and gtrsrs’s posts and see exactly where the origin of this tunneling came from. It is lol worthy. + Show Spoiler + On June 06 2011 16:20 iGrok wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 16:04 gtrsrs wrote: here is my scum hunt you post haiku's in a game where posting anything more than necessary is distracting and derailing you try to find the town's blues so that the mafia can know what they're up against the one thing that the town has as an advantage is that the mafia doesn't know our PRs and here you are spelling the info out for them even if you're not mafia, your two biggest contributions so far are anti-town everyone i encourage you to ##vote: iGrok and watch how he (and others) react as the votes pile up. putting the pressure on someone is a good way to find mafia. watch the people that come to defend him and how they do so and then when he flips red, go after them next Okay, this is not an analysis. Everyone please note how bad this is. But as a refutation, I posted haikus because I wanted to, and every single one had a purpose. I did not try to find out the town's blues. I tried to guess the setup. This helps town out just as much as it helps scum out, if not more so. If you disagree, I want to know why, in explicit detail. Mafia doesn't know who is what PR, or even how many - they can only guess, same as me. Same point as above. If you count both of those as my only two contributions, I'll be able to simply ignore you as a terrile player. The analysis of Kurumi, and holding town together from fracturing immediately should also be in there. As well as explaining several concepts for the newer players. On June 06 2011 16:11 gtrsrs wrote: in fact i think kurumi is doing the right thing. we have nothing to go on on day 1. there are a lot of inexperienced players. lots of times if a new player is mafia and you insinuate that they're mafia they get really defensive. even if they know that you're accusing everyone, new players can slip up when you get around to accusing them. so i think kurumi is just trying to shake out some baddie mafias. I went through your post history - when exactly have you played before? I know you're big in the LoL subforum, but all I could find regarding mafia was as a replacement in SNMM3 and a late /in for Newbie Mini Mafia I. Just curious because you're acting like you have some knowledge of how newbies play vs how experienced people play. Basically he calls out gtrsrs on being a noob, even though his accusation against iGrok is pretty accurate. CrjNinja comes in and says he disagrees with his analysis on Kurumi. DO NOT base an argument on accuracy unless there are contradictions in someone’s posts. The better question to ask is “Is this significant?” NO. He is calling him a noob because these “accurate” statements in no way conclusively paint iGrok as mafia. Let’s boil it down to the facts. iGrok makes haikus and he posts what he believes the set-up is. If he is mafia, why let the town know? He can easily tell this information in the mafia chat. He made haikus. Oh noes… it’s so distracting he must be mafia. This is really the flimsiest reason for an accusation to have ever been uttered. + Show Spoiler + On June 06 2011 16:36 iGrok wrote: Show nested quote + On June 06 2011 16:20 CjrNinja wrote: @ iGrok I disagree with your player analysis. I think Kumuri is taking a very pro-town initiative by putting a lot of pressure on inexperienced players. It's a good opportunity to gauge reactions and hopefully pick up on a scum slip if the accused can't handle the pressure ^^ Also, the less attention towards blue roles, the better... last thing town needs is an inexperienced playing letting slip his blue role on day1. Disagreement is fine! I'm a huge fan of actual discussion about things - but someone had to start the analysis, and the little quotes we were getting before are much more annoying to deal with. As I said, I'm not completely certain on Kurumi, but if I had to choose I'd say scum. Thats why I asked for a DT check. Regarding my 'focus on blue roles', which I take you and gtr to mean my Setup Analysis, what I love most about Mafia is the mechanics, and so I'm going to try to work those out as best I can. Since neither mafia nor town knew (or knows now) how many of each role there are, I haven't really done anything. However, with rough, probable numbers, we can work out the best way to assign our blue powers. Blues are (arguably) the most important part of a mafia game - we should try to line up some good actions instead of just hoping for the best. More people become suspicious of him and then gtrsrs posts Again construing it to suit your needs. More people are not becoming suspicious of him. They are disagreeing with his conclusion. There is a difference. iGrok even later welcomes any disagreements. He provided his evidence and of course it won’t be 100% conclusive so there will be some who don’t agree. - - - - - - - - - - - In conclusion, I really want to stress that THIS IS NOT AN OPEN AND SHUT CASE. Lets summarize the points main against iGrok: Claim to experience. Self-importance? His posts try to paint a picture as him being “pro-town” Defends lafali, accuses Kurumi Got super defensive “fishing for blues” I would get defensive too if I got tunneled for stupid reasons. I pointed out the flaw in “fishing for blues”. The only way iGrok is justified as scum is to claim iGrok is godfather. Yes, you have a right to be skeptical if the only means of accusing someone is to claim he is godfather. For those of you bumrushing iGrok as mafia, I urge you to look at it in the point of view of town and you will see it is equally as valid. Overall, I am not saying he couldn’t be godfather but all the evidence is INCONCLUSIVE at best. I don’t even know how all of you are completely convinced of his wrongdoing. We all agree he is being pro-town and trying to assert his experience, but you take this as proof he is godfather when he can just as easily be a townie. outlines the reasoning pretty well. Something else:[/b] GGQ didn't post ANY suspicions of iGrok until literally 1 minute before the night post. So the notion that GGQ was killed to protect iGrok from his accusations is bogus. iGrok is playing this as if its a newbie game (which it is). He's being a bit patronizing, a little "cutesy" and "unserious" perhaps, but that doesn't mean he reads as scum. In fact, look at his posting in older mafia games: Insane Mafia 2 - iGrok was a blue. He posts less (which can be explained by being blue rather than green) but he offers his opinion on most things. He shows an interest in the game mechanics, asks a bunch of questions about that. He also answers other peoples noob-esque questions. And he posts some silly stuff, early on, like this: On March 24 2011 08:08 iGrok wrote: Show nested quote + On March 24 2011 08:02 bumatlarge wrote: On March 24 2011 07:35 GMarshal wrote: You may be right, I mean each post only has a 2% chance of you dying to a horrible mod-kill anyway. Oh, I'm going to guess that the number is 273. Am I right kita? I may be crazy, BUT IT JUST MIGHT BE A LOOONATIC UR LUKING FOR The lunatic is in my head, The lunatic is in my head, You raise the blade, you make the change, You re-arrange me 'till I'm sane That's his only other game that I can find - though he has referred to playing in another game with smurf IDs, etc. Couldn't track that down. Anyways, in that other mafia he played, iGrok's early posts were mostly dominated by somewhat off-topic posting, like cutesy stuff, questions about the mechanics of the game, and answers to nooby questions. Does this sound similar? He was town when he did this last time. Does this mean he's 100% [green]innocent? NO. But it does mean that this kind of posting from iGrok is not evidence of his being some kind of scum mastermind. And when you disregard it the case against him looks rather slim. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
On June 09 2011 13:38 Pyo wrote: [/b]Show nested quote + On June 09 2011 13:22 Treadmill wrote: Something else: GGQ didn't post ANY suspicions of iGrok until literally 1 minute before the night post. So the notion that GGQ was killed to protect iGrok from his accusations is bogus. Wait, when did anyone say this? CjrNinja, page 46. I pared it down but you can go back and look: On June 09 2011 12:42 CjrNinja wrote: I think GGQ died for 3 reasons: a) Has been the only person to suspect Vain, which no one has picked up on (yet). b) Suspected iGrok, though wasn’t as vocal about it (before his ‘death posts’) c) Experienced player One point: KURUMI DOES NOT NEED AN EXPLANATION AND HE CAN DEFEND HIMSELF FINE. HE IS TOWNIE Either a. xkcd is claiming DT and that he checked Kurumi last night - after having spent most of yesterday mentioning why it wouldn't really be useful for a DT to check on him and the results shouldn't be trusted or b. xkcd has boundless faith in this guy and considers him exempt from scrutiny because... what? I really can't see any scenario two except for xkcd being mafia. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
On June 09 2011 14:34 CjrNinja wrote: Show nested quote + On June 09 2011 13:22 Treadmill wrote: Something else:GGQ didn't post ANY suspicions of iGrok until literally 1 minute before the night post. So the notion that GGQ was killed to protect iGrok from his accusations is bogus. You are correct in that he didn't call out iGrok straight. But, using the power of hindsight, we can easily see that GGQ was definitely suspicious of him. Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 13:27 GGQ wrote: Perhaps the best information that we can get out of this is to examine people's responses to Kurumi's pressure on lafali. I leave that as an exercise for the newbies for now . Look at how people respond to lafali's post and who voted for lafali and who defended lafali. But don't just look at that; look also at why and how they defended him. Show nested quote + iGrok defends lafali as probably newb town. He's the only one who defends lafali straight out No GGQ didn't call out iGrok specifically in that first quote. But iGrok knew GGQ was referring to him, as he was the only person who defended Lafali. Does that make sense? Hrrrm. I missed that. I still think that everyone is reading a little too deeply into everything - I think that GGQ was killed cause the mafia read him as blue, nothing else. Also just cause GGQ got killed doesn't mean he was right. [what's kinda funny is that people are extrapolating what they want to think out of everything - iGrok is mafia because DeMorcerf was killed, and he was defending him' iGrok is mafia because GGQ was killed, and he was suspicious of him.] I'm gonna go to bed. See y'all in the morning. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 10 2011 00:27 GMT
#1015
On June 10 2011 09:25 iGrok wrote: Show nested quote + On June 10 2011 09:21 Jackal58 wrote: On June 10 2011 09:14 iGrok wrote: On June 10 2011 09:08 aprudds wrote: On June 10 2011 09:04 iGrok wrote: You guys really want me back? Post an actual defense. No. I won't "post an actual defense". I've been defending myself all game from bullshit tunnels, and thats only gotten me accused of being not just scum but GF. I may have something though... still thinking about it We can't both be GF bucko. How does one defend themselves from the mindless horde? I feel like a Russian in WWZ. You me or Kurumi must be GF. GGQ said so right? I'm vanilla townie. Kurumi hasn't outed himself yet so that leaves you. Amidoinitrite? Well, not quite. Although I would laugh if Kurumi was GF, it doesn't necessarily have to be one of us, and "hasn't outed himself yet" is like the worst argument I've ever heard. If we're going on the assumption that an experienced player is GF you guys are ignoring gtsrs. Its a stupid obsession though , we should be hunting for mafia nopt metagaming who the gf is. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 10 2011 03:49 GMT
#1046
On June 10 2011 12:47 aprudds wrote: EBWOP my bad, didnt see the next page, doh. Hahaha. I did the same thing for a bit. This is totally down to the wire, I keep F5'ing to see if there are new votes. I bellieve that its tdAdonis and Jimbooo who have yet to vote, correct? Considering that Adonis has yet to post in this thread I can't say I'll miss him. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 10 2011 04:19 GMT
#1057
One thing is Kurumi comes out of this smelling like a rose. At least, xkcd definitely checked up on him last night and he definitely showed town. Could be gf, maybe, but I somewhat doubt it. Gonna have to do some thinking tonight. Hrrrm. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 10 2011 05:31 GMT
#1080
On June 10 2011 14:21 aprudds wrote: XKCD-13 Treadmill grush57 teamsolid Impervious cherubael Alderan 35spike1 TheAwesomeAll blackone aprudds iGrok Munk-E Senj iGrok-11 Pyo gtrsrs Sprungjeezy Kurumi supersoft CjrNinja omgCRAZY Xedat Kairo Drazerk freeloader625 Did a recount, can someone check it? teamsolid switched to Jackal. You're missing Trance and MonsterDrakar who both voted iGrok. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 10 2011 05:35 GMT
#1082
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Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 11 2011 05:22 GMT
#1182
On June 11 2011 14:17 gtrsrs wrote: you know looking back we have 40 players i doubt there'd be more than 1/5th mafia maximum 8. more likely 7. 3 dead = 4 mafia remaining 4 mafia = 2 KP. 1 KP removed for amazing's death. 2-1 = 1 KP last night it's entirely possible that a vigi shot last night. a vigi hit on jackal would have made sense too. what say you guys? It says explicitly in the OP that there were 8 mafia to start with. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 11 2011 05:27 GMT
#1185
On June 11 2011 14:24 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: that is an amazing series of ninja's o_O LOL yeah. That'll teach gtsrs to ask questions | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 11 2011 06:40 GMT
#1189
I'm not scum. I'm a townie. I don't want you guys to waste a lynch on me when there are genuine mafia out there to hunt. As far as I can tell the case against me is based on i. I strongly advocated for the lynch of amazingxkcd ii. iGrok and I were somehow 'pals' As for [i], I really feel like I had a good case against xkcd. I genuinely thought he was scum. A lot of people including experienced players like impervious agreed with me - as well as many of the people who ended up voting iGrok. I didn't lie about the details of his case, I didn't "tunnel" him, I feel like I did my best to be fair to him. Obviously I was wrong, obviously I screwed up, but I advocated for what I believed. As for iGrok, I read him wrong too. to my eyes, the criticisms on day one from gtrsrs and from Kurumi came of of nowhere. From what I can tell in retrospect, they're suspicion came (in part) from past experience in the game - gtrsrs said a few pages ago that he was suspicious cause he'd done the same thing his first game as godfather - but to me their accusations came out of nowhere, so I defended him. Day 2 they were amongst the first people to go to lynch him so I was again suspicious of that lynch. I was wrong though. iGrok buddying up to me like he did, could've been him trying to give me legitimacy but he kept doing it when he was under a lot of suspicion. If I've missed something, let me know, and I'll answer to it as best I can. Anyways, I'm staying up for the MSL finals so I'm gonna spend some time looking for the real mafia. One person I think could use more scrutiny is Alderan - day one he posted a lot of suspicions of xkcd, then posted how he felt that the case against rookie44 was pretty weak, then he switched his vote to rookie44 for odd reasoning. He also is one of the only two guys, with Senj, to have voted for both rookie day 1 and xkcd day 2. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 11 2011 07:12 GMT
#1192
On June 11 2011 16:04 TheAwesomeAll wrote: youre timings were pretty unfortunate, why did you vote xkcd if you suspected he was DT? I didn't. I thought he was red. I figured that if he wasn't he was definitely DT, but I was really thinking red. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 11 2011 07:21 GMT
#1193
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Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 12 2011 15:13 GMT
#1269
b. as far as I know I didn't get shot night 1 (I'd know, right?) c. aprudds is right, anyways, mafia only had 3 kp night 1 so there wasn't an extra hit d. I'm starting a job this weekend so I don't have much time to post (I'll have some time for the 6 hours before the vote so I'll post more there) e. my scum detection is totally off so I really have no idea who's mafia and who isn't. I think the case against grush57 is decent, especially as all he's been posting today is "well Treadmill's vet, or not, or I don't know" which is a bit of a derail. I'm not sure what the case against Vain is, he hasn't been posting much I guess. gtsrs I'd appreciate if you laid out clearly hy you think he's mafia (apologies if you already have, again, in a bit of a rush) I'm not voting til I get back cause I've been hasty in the past and thats been dumb. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 12 2011 22:36 GMT
#1284
On June 13 2011 07:04 heist wrote: Kurumi you just changed your vote to pyo. You seriously need to stop abusing the fact that you are a confirmed town. You're just causing confusion and start arguments that are not clarifying anyone's suspicions on anyone. Just because Kurumi is a confirmed townie doesn't mean he isnt also a moron. I'm voting grush57 because I think he's got the best case against him. Mostly for the reasons other people have said - his posting day 1 + his votes + mostly just lurking. Though given our luck he's probably another blue lol. I'm gonna post some stuff about Alderan during tomorrow's night phase since apparently people aren't gonna lynch me for another day or two. I was kinda hoping that somebody else, someone not everyone thinks is mafia, would take a look, but since that hasn't happened I'll have to do it. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 13 2011 01:09 GMT
#1304
On June 13 2011 09:50 35spike1 wrote: Show nested quote + Lol, what a scum post. Apoligising for lack of activity, happily stating that he'll jump on the Grush bandwagon, and explaining that he can't be bothered checking out Grush's posts.On June 13 2011 09:09 Alderan wrote: Sorry for being so late to the party here lady's and gents, weekends are pretty busy for me, especially this weekend. Will SIGNIFICANTLY more active into tomorrow. It seems that everyone has jumped on this Grush bandwagon, and I don't necessarily think that its a bad idea so I'm going to throw a vote there for the day. I feel like analysis of Grush's posts at this point will be overly redundant in that I can only find a couple and they are by and large meaningless (the biggest tell being his association with iGork earlier in the game). That's ONE way to look at it. Alternately, he's apologizing for having been busy and not posting much, and agrees with the consensus view of grush57 and doesnt't really have anything to add. Saying that Alderan is "explaining that he can't be bothered checking out Grush's posts" is not only unfair but inaccurate - he's saying he can't be bothered to give analysis, which is different. This is the biggest problem we've been having this whole game - once someone's decided someone else is scum, then every single new post is read in the worst possible light. I'm suspicious of Alderan too but we need to be fair to people if we want to avoid continued mislynches. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 13 2011 02:40 GMT
#1310
On June 13 2011 11:32 TranceStorm wrote: Show nested quote + On June 13 2011 09:51 Vain wrote: On June 13 2011 09:33 TranceStorm wrote: On June 13 2011 09:22 Vain wrote: On June 13 2011 09:10 TranceStorm wrote: On June 13 2011 09:02 Vain wrote: On June 13 2011 08:53 TranceStorm wrote: On June 13 2011 08:41 Vain wrote: Ok, i went trough grush57 posts again. Most of them are just reactions or agreements of people so i am not going to post those. On June 09 2011 06:55 grush57 wrote: On June 09 2011 06:40 supersoft wrote: I going to vote for iGrok now. I believe he's scum. For several reasons. First reason: I thought about who might be the person who leads the mafia - whether he's also GF or not doesn't matter for me right now. To my mind came 3 persons who dominated the scene at the first day: Kurumi, Jackal and iGrok. Now to the differences between these three players: Kurumi is very aggressive and gets into everyones face every time he posts something. He was against the freeloaderlynch and sceptical about the rookielynch. But he proposed several alternativelynches. Jackal was also against the freeloaderlynch, and he proposed to lynch rookie instead. No good move if you are GF/mafia if you know that freeloader also is townie... Why should you draw votes from a townie to another townie... That's just stupid... iGrok just posted some informations etc. and he asked for a DT-check on Kurumi. ___________________________ iGrok was the most passive player out of the three. Of course he was! as scum he knew exactly that rookie and freeloader were innocent, so he could easily sit back and watch the town lynch each other. He just hadn't do anything. In fact it would have been stupid to really push for a Kurumilynch. He just tried to make him look suspicious, to draw attention from himself: Of course a DT check on Kurumi would be negative. But no problem, iGrok still could say that Kurumi is the GF. Second reason This shit convinced me + Show Spoiler + On June 08 2011 13:03 GGQ wrote: GGQ's big post of epicness in case he dies tonight (which I've just realised I dont have enough time to make as long as I want Trust me that it's smart and good: No one undertook the exercise I set of looking at who defended and attacked lafali and why. I'm very disappointed, guys. You all get 0/2 on your homework for today. The veteran players are all going to be dead before this game is nearly over, and you guys need to practice working on how to actually find scum, not just accuse people based on neutral tells. Keep your heads up, don't get discouraged. Look at contradictions in talk and behavior. Look at people who are skating by with posts that just repeat previous content. These are the scummy players. The point was to lead you to Kurumi and iGrok above everyone else. Kurumi attacks lafali for his bandwagon vote bringing nothing new to the table on freeloader. There was absolutely no reason for him to throw scum on lafali so early in the game if he's mafia. Plus his aggressiveness and balls-out attitude are more inline with a green than anything else. Kurumi is most likely town. iGrok defends lafali as probably newb town. He's the only one who defends lafali straight out, but Vain, aprudds, monsterDrakar, and Senj also soft-defend him. I'm not saying they are all scum, but it's a great place to look for scum (dts take note! vigis save your shots). At this point in time I think iGrok is almost certainly the godfather of the mafia team (it could be jackal as well but his behavior doesn't fit the role as well, and seems more in line with the town play I've seen from him). iGrok defends lafali after Kurumi calls him out and votes for him, while before this accusation he posted that everyone who had voted so far ( which included lafali) should be under suspicion. Contradiction. iGrok has also been working to get into a town-leadership and thread-presence position all game, something the godfather always tries to do. iGrok also got way too defensive after being attacked and accused. Other suspicious people to me: Vain, partly for defending lafali, partly for advocating the lynch on freeloader for 'information' blehhhhh I already posted about that, and partly because iGrok listed him as a skilled vet with him, me and jackal when I think he's quite new and I havent seen anything particularly good from him. iGrok probably wanted another mafia on that list, though. Of course jimbooo whom I voted Day 1, for reasons already stated by multiple players. Others are monsterDrakar and Senj. xkcd has decreased on my scum meter lately but isn't totally clear. So, he is the most passive, which could also mean he is a blue and then later in another post, you try to get other people to bandwagon with You. Not saying whether iGrok is mafia or town/blue, but u do have good analysis of those players. Inb4 grush57 is trying to defend iGrok, he is scum! Grush57 is calling igrok scum. This was irr before he was in alot of danger so this pleads for him Read this again. Grush isn't calling igrok scum, he's defending him given that he's responding to an attack on iGrok and saying that "which could also mean he is a blue". Then he says "Not saying whether iGrok is mafia or town/blue", and concludes by articulating that isn't actually defending iGrok "Inb4 grush57 is trying to defend iGrok, he is scum!", when he actually is. In the mean time, would you mind responding to the numerous accusations against yourself? You seem to be selectively responding to accusations against grush instead of yourself. Also, given that the day vote is ending soon, pick out a candidate and give good reasons for voting for them, I haven't seen you strongly support a lynch all game. I've only seen you defend iGrok and grush, so please, I would love for you to make a vote and back it up now. Several pages later he changed his mind and agreed he wasn't blue either. I'll vote when ill see fit and don't make it seem there have been strong cases against any player yet. We lynched 1.5 times a blue so you go ahead and make a very strong case on a scum. But if it turns out to be a blue you stop playing this game forever ok? Btw, i also thought voting for jackal while igrock was alsmost about to be lynched was a huge scumtell. but i just really hoped you didn't notice Please link me to where grush ever accused iGrok of being mafia (or in fact agreed that iGrok was not blue). In fact a quick search of grush's posts with reference to iGrok (hooray for search function!) reveals that he always defending iGrok and suspicious of the people who bandwagon against iGrok. In the meantime, I notice how you haven't responded to the accusations against yourself yet again, please do so. On June 09 2011 07:20 grush57 wrote: Yea, I don't really think he would be blue either. there, now do your own research without a stupid search function. now accusing of what, not voting on scum? guilty as charged but you have to come with more than that. Ok, I stand corrected on the quote issue. (That still doesn't clear grush by any means - he's only saying that iGrok probably isn't blue). But when I'm talking about accusations I mean responding to the following posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=52#1022 Well as i stated before it was pretty much a 50/50 scum/blue flip i just don't really like talking about blues and i didn't feel like investigating the rest again. Day one lynch is most of the time wrong anyways. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=58#1157 point one: GGQ,Kurumi and a few others are also on that list. Ty for bringing that up. It could very well be those are all townies. Igrok was positioning himself as head townie remember? Point two: same as first link Point three: Well igrok said something about at least one vet being in the mafia. I found that a very good theory. One of the two had to be mafia but i picked the wrong one. I dind't think igrok would put so much effort in appearing town while he was godfather. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=61#1212 Jeah, really i don't know what GGQ was smoking but i didn't even talk about lafali once before i died http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=227500¤tpage=65#1286 Especially considering that the last of the set of 4 posts is just 2 posts above one of yours and is on the same page where we have had such a nice conversation, it looks to me like you are dodging the accusations against yourself. So, i hope that's enough for now. I quoted my own posts a couple of times because you happened to 'skip by them' multiple times so I called you out asking you to respond multiple times. Only when I have finally pinned you down here have you finally responded to any attacks against yourself. So lets look at your responses: Post #1: Ok, so you voted to lynch rookie on the basis that it was a 50/50 and you didn't want to investigate anyone else further. That sounds fishy by itself, but I won't press the issue here. Post #2: The first thing you miss in that post is that I compare your current behavior in the thread to that in your previous game. (the first two paragraphs) There was a complete different between the way you posted in the beginning of this game and Slightly Normal Mini Mafia I. Only now, have you become more active in your postings. Is this because I called you out? Now onto the subpoints:
2. Same as Post #1. 3. My argument was that you were extremely hesistant and unwilling to associate yourself with either side. You seemed extremely unsure and unwilling to accept responsibility for your vote which piqued my interest as you seemed to wish to 'hide'. Post #3: The key issue in this post was not GGQ's accusations. Its Pyo's collection of your posting history. A key thing to note is that you had not expressed a strong opinion on any issue. You had not advocated for a lynch or advocated for a plan or what not. In fact the only consistent thing in your posting history was your constant defense of iGrok and your suggestion that he not be lynched. Post #4: This is where I accuse you of dodging accusations. I called you out repeatedly, and judging by the fact that you say you read back on grush's posts, I expect that you must have read those posts. Why did you delay responding until I forced you to respond? The reason is that you have been trying to hide and dodge those suspicions. Don't say that I am dodging accusations, when I am repeatedly calling you out. Hmm. I hadn't seen that iGrok added Vain to his "experienced player list" despite not really being experienced. Considering I've been doubting the grush57 vote a little its enough for me to switch. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 13 2011 05:29 GMT
#1326
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Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 14 2011 05:44 GMT
#1370
Sad to see you go, Pyo. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 15 2011 06:12 GMT
#1380
Now that I've thought about it, I think its most likely that the remaining mafia all voted for amazingxkcd on day 2, considering that a single vote could've saved or killed him. So of that list left alive is: Me Munk-E Alderan blackone aprudds I think so long as we stick to lynching people off that list we should be OK. As for the people: I know that I'm innocent (and I think it should be clear that I'm innocent given how much the now proven mafia tried to draw attention to me). Munk-E has been mostly lurking but a lot of people have been doing that this game so it doesn't tell us anything. He accused and voted lafali day one and posted a decent reason why he voted for amazingxkcd which suggests to me that he's more likely innocent. blackone and aprudds, I can't really get a read on. blackone seems a bit more likely to be scum but that isn't really meaningful. Alderan seems to me to be most likely scum. Mostly from looking back at day 1: On June 07 2011 05:56 Alderan wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 05:47 TranceStorm wrote: On June 07 2011 05:38 Jackal58 wrote: You guys want to vote for scum? Vote this guy - rookie44: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9611408 Has played before so he has an idea how it works. Very subtle in his fishing for blues. Only scum fish for blues. Wants to know what methods and tactics are used to catch scum. Wants us to share them with everybody. Claims it will help derail scum tactics. When it will obviously do the opposite. Has all but disappeared since this post. I'm sure he'll show up momentarily to tell me how full of shit I am. That's where my vote is going. I would recommend you all do the same. Would you mind doing a post-by-post analysis of rookie44's posts? (There are only 3) Right now I can't really see how subtly he is fishing for blues. After all, we don't know how experienced he really is, so I would like a little more clarification as to your accusation. Wait so you're saying instead of voting for new players being dumb you suggest us to vote for a player who has never played before on the forums (admittedly so) for suggesting that veteran players toss out potential strategies? Sure it's a LITTLE scummy, but until I see some elaboration on your "very subtle in fishing for blues" I'm going to have to disagree with you. On June 07 2011 06:16 Alderan wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 06:03 Jackal58 wrote: On June 07 2011 05:56 Alderan wrote: On June 07 2011 05:47 TranceStorm wrote: On June 07 2011 05:38 Jackal58 wrote: You guys want to vote for scum? Vote this guy - rookie44: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9611408 Has played before so he has an idea how it works. Very subtle in his fishing for blues. Only scum fish for blues. Wants to know what methods and tactics are used to catch scum. Wants us to share them with everybody. Claims it will help derail scum tactics. When it will obviously do the opposite. Has all but disappeared since this post. I'm sure he'll show up momentarily to tell me how full of shit I am. That's where my vote is going. I would recommend you all do the same. Would you mind doing a post-by-post analysis of rookie44's posts? (There are only 3) Right now I can't really see how subtly he is fishing for blues. After all, we don't know how experienced he really is, so I would like a little more clarification as to your accusation. Wait so you're saying instead of voting for new players being dumb you suggest us to vote for a player who has never played before on the forums (admittedly so) for suggesting that veteran players toss out potential strategies? Sure it's a LITTLE scummy, but until I see some elaboration on your "very subtle in fishing for blues" I'm going to have to disagree with you. You his scum buddy? Just pointing out that I think your analysis is just as weak or weaker than all the others. Let's see how he responds. On June 07 2011 09:55 Alderan wrote: I will be voting for Rookie based on his answers to being called out. While I don't think he is the highest percentage (I'd give him about 10%) chance of hitting a scum, I think that he will do nothing but waste a DT or a future and more costly lynch if he remains in the game. Honestly there are a couple people I'd like to vote for, but the decision is made infinitely more difficult based on the fact that all the ones in question are likely only in question for being new to the game and very lazy. If we have to hit a town let's make it a lazy scummy looking one. ##Vote Rookie44 His turnaround from voting amazingxkcd to voting rookie44 seems really fast, and poorly explained. He also never addressed the notion that rookie44 might've been a newb blue, despite posting a few times after that argument came up. The second quote is a little defensive for an attack that doesn't deserve it. Also he was the only guy to switch from xkcd to rookie44 when there was some effort to switch the other way. As well, he was arguing day two that if we still had a medic they should definitely not heal jackal, cause the mafia wouldn't possibly kill jackal - and that night, the mafia hit jackal. There are some other reasons to be suspicious that others have posted, but basically, I'm voting Alderan. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 15 2011 19:28 GMT
#1412
@supersoft: any particular reason you don't have blackone on your list too? | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 15 2011 22:55 GMT
#1438
gg | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 16 2011 11:08 GMT
#1462
On June 16 2011 19:37 iGrok wrote: Treadmill, I feel bad for you - you made a bad read and it cost you your life. Except I actually survived It only cost OTHER people their lives. Urgh. I really screwed up this game, hopefully I can learn from my mistakes. | ||
Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
June 17 2011 20:54 GMT
#1510
On June 18 2011 04:23 gtrsrs wrote: i don't think i was greenlighting kurumi too hard til amazingkxcd flipped and it was revealed that his "kurumi is 100% town" claim was backed by something. until then i was mostly saying "just try to ignore his kurumi-isms and play around him" imo. also i feel like i came off as very pro-town in that game. i was scumhunting, i wasn't wishy-washy, i stuck to my guns, i offered to die in order to get my target lynched (which would be a really bad move for mafia or blue, obviously). i think it's weird you had a bad feeling about me Eh, you WERE scum hunting pretty well but you weren't explaining yourself at all. Most notably, you jumped on iGrok day one - and your suspicions were right. But since you didn't really explain yourself, and the case wasn't obvious to us noobies, it looked like you were just tunnelling him, and you looked a bit scummy to a bunch of us. What really bothers me is that xkcd pretended to have DT-checked Kurumi when he hadn't. Had xkcd been wrong and Kurumi actually been scum we would've been completely screwed. | ||
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