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Time for BC to do his writeup. I will ignore the flamewheel issue as well, my say has been tossed in on it.
For this game, almost within moments of the roles being handed out GM gave me the info so I could properly help the reds. I had 2 of the 3 assassins messaging me as well early on.
I helped give them general advice on how to proceed and if they required would look over their posts before they were posted. Most of this help was given to GM however as he spent the most time talking to me as he was the one in the largest spotlight. Coag as much as he proved via irc conversations that he knew how to play proceeded to play like the most obvious scum I have ever seen. This never changed.
Now lets look at how the game played out.
Day 1
GM/coag/dropbear/trance all appeared in IRC. Now keep in mind, this is 4 of the 8 reds. Both roleblockers, and the two most experienced players on their team. Serejai appeared late into the day and was around for all of day 2 before the pardon/fw stuff. Anyway, I acted as a go between for the reds and BB asking questions as I have BB on skype and could get responses far quicker. I also helped give general tips of how to tackle day 1.
This started with
telling 2-3 of them to run for mayor (only 1 did), and specifically that although mayor was the "role" everyone should be running for pardoner was the one they wanted. The way the pardoner operated in this setup (how it was supposed to that is) made the pardoner a renamed prince of darkness role. If you paid attention to the people running for election day 1 you will notice FW running for pardoner. He/incog/ver or a combination of the 3 figured out very quickly how powerful the pardoner role was. Mafia figured it out after fw did, but ended up getting the role via the elections. As for how day 1 played out in thread.
Coag appeared red out of the gate. GM appeared to be in direct conversation with a coach. His posts would go from normal him to posts that took a very obvious level of work. These posts however appeared town. By the end of day 1, the most pro town posts belonged to GM and Kavdragon. 1 red, and 1 day one lynch by DrH. The idea of using blue lists was one I suggested via my town guide I wrote and I stand by that decision. For the vet players who claimed it was bad or anti town, etc... You need to smarten up. The mafia were posting more town aligned ideas than you were, this should never happen.
Night 1 starts and I advised them to use their roleblockers in a way to hide one of them. I suggested this by roleblocking one of the hit targets in the off chance they were a blue and using the other roleblock as normal. The idea behind this was to keep this going for 3 days and then reveal the second rb'er to force a waste of a day on people fearing a fake claim, then hide the roleblocker again. causing another day to be wasted lynching the other "roleblocked" player the following morning. This plan was screwed due to modkills however.
Day 2 starts up. FW claims dt? (lolwtf?) and claims to have checked coag (who is mafia gf). Now, first off. All the town who supported FW should look in a mirror and repeat "I am bad at mafia" until it sinks in and you come back ready to learn. The thought process behind his claim should have been. "Wow, he claimed assassin day 1 and didn't get elected. He now claims dt and that he found a red. But he claimed his check differently than how a DT check actually works. We know he has lied at least twice to us. This means he is obviously not town. I can easily say hes not mafia as no mafia would try to save someone who is deff getting shot by assassins at night. This means the only way for him to avoid modkill requires him playing to win, which means he believes he is bussing an assassin." You then have that "dt checked player" claim a blue role that is easily proven at night. At this stage town should have analyzed anyone else, or pushed to lynch anyone supporting such an outrageously anti town idea. DrH comes to mind almost instantly. Through the arguing over this issue during the day, GM, Bartundar, and LSB all stepped up to appear as the most pro town players. Coag spammed but to be fair, he should never have been up for a lynch off the situation. Vig hit yes, lynch no. The posts involving the use of the pardon from GM were made in actual rage. Using the pardon in the situation was the most pro town thing he could do, but town was playing horribly. I am terribly sorry if you disagree with me, but the decision of day 2 was terrible. Pardon was most pro town play to avoid killing someone who was being killed on terrible logic, the findings of a liar, and with the massive sheep following the lynch recieved. Then everyone jumped on GM. Then meapak did something that should never have happened. Now, BB has taken the blame for this publically and that is cool. HOWEVER. Meapak was not reading the thread. He ignored what I had told him in regards to how the pardon ability worked (direct chat history from bb and I) because he believed I had no reason to talk to BB about the game. He did not know myself or foolishness were coaches in this game. He had no idea who was up to be lynched until after he made his ruling, etc.... He ignored a lot of variables because he opted to make a ruling before even knowing the situation his ruling was effecting. It was his call, but this was totally unacceptable. Always be up to date on your game before you make a ruling, as it is the only way to be totally fair about it. He then told the mafia team to suck it up and deal with it as he had to the game before and refused to find anyone to replace milkys and dta as mafia hadn't proved they deserved it.
The situation from there turned into shite. GM was lynched, coag modkilled, serejai vigi'd and milk modkilled. I sat in the mafia irc for 2 days and only saw dropbear once, and checked their quicktopic to see very little talking that I could directly input on so I stayed back and observed waiting for messages and checked irc periodically but never saw anyone there.
The game then progressed much as already been discussed. Both dropbear and AO I believe could have argued their way out of being lynched with a bit more experience but general thread activity followed by town blindly going "hurr durr blue did the job for me" led to an almost impossible scenario for mafia to do anything as it looked like no one was reading the game and just reading the vote thread.
I applaud the mafia for keeping in the game after the pardoner situation as well as the terrible attitude of one of the hosts. I am very glad I had the opportunity to help them and hope they did learn something in the process and GM I am nominating your performance for town MVP as your play as mafia this game was more town than any of the major town players aside from possibly bum.
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GM's play was totally not town -_- He was playing completely different from how he usually plays as town. I would know, I've been in two PM circles with him. You can't very well say he had the most pro-town play if both me and bum were able to see and FoS him as mafia -_-.
Disagree with your "people who supported FW should say they are bad at mafia". His analysis of Coag was spot on after review and at that point it didn't matter what his claim was or wasn't. The play ended up working out in our favor anyway, much better than a DrH lynch would have panned out.
The way the pardoner operated in this setup (how it was supposed to that is) made the pardoner a renamed prince of darkness role
Using the pardon in the situation was the most pro town thing he could do
When is prince of darkness ever a pro-town role? I'd rather have a lynch over a pardon, especially if the lynch lead to a mafia dead.
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On April 24 2011 16:00 BloodyC0bbler wrote:
The situation from there turned into shite. GM was lynched, coag modkilled, serejai vigi'd and milk modkilled. I sat in the mafia irc for 2 days and only saw dropbear once, and checked their quicktopic to see very little talking that I could directly input on so I stayed back and observed waiting for messages and checked irc periodically but never saw anyone there.
We should have been more active in PMing you, but I was actually in IRC almost every moment I was awake, it's just that I'm 12 hours ahead of you!
TranceStorm and Airblade became very active after the Marshal lynch. There was little in the quicktopic because we were doing most of our discussions in IRC, we had several 2-3 hour discussions.
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I have my own write up which I'm going to hold off on posting until Qatol makes a thread for discussion but regarding the pardon I am going to say that I think I resolved the action correctly. Doing it the way of having the pardon shut down the lynch contradicts the clause that the pardoner can't pardon himself. In this case the pardoner was up for lynch, by doing it that way he would have saved himself which is against the role. I've heard a couple people say that "if you read the role closely it shows this is the power" well without BB explicitly telling me to resolve it with the lynch always stopping then I would have done it my way a thousand times over. Because otherwise the role completely contradicts itself.
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On April 24 2011 16:12 chaoser wrote:GM's play was totally not town -_- He was playing completely different from how he usually plays as town. I would know, I've been in two PM circles with him. You can't very well say he had the most pro-town play if both me and bum were able to see and FoS him as mafia -_-. Disagree with your "people who supported FW should say they are bad at mafia". His analysis of Coag was spot on after review and at that point it didn't matter what his claim was or wasn't. The play ended up working out in our favor anyway, much better than a DrH lynch would have panned out. Show nested quote +The way the pardoner operated in this setup (how it was supposed to that is) made the pardoner a renamed prince of darkness role When is prince of darkness ever a pro-town role? I'd rather have a lynch over a pardon, especially if the lynch lead to a mafia dead.
Following a known liar who is also anti town in any situation is bad town play. Factor in the person being accused also claimed vet. This means you vig shoot. If he survives he is a confirmed town mafia must now save, or he is gf. Regardless following FW was the dumbest thing in the world. FW objective was to find and kill assassins. He wasn't going to get medic protection no matter who died during lynch so his only hope was finding an assassin. Coag played like shit, but a townie openly following a confirmed third party is retarded.
Now. Lets say that FW hadn't pulled the stunt he did during the day 1 and just claimed dt day 2. In this case, (go read mafia 3) you would realize that with such little information to go off of, and to prevent mafia from easily fake claiming dt, you kill the accuser and killing the accused gives literally no information on the accuser. No dt in their right mind would claim day 1 unless they had bg protection period.
Also, never meta a player. Any player can suddenly change styles from game to game with no notice as to why to the general public. His posts suggested heavy coaching but that could have been from me or foolishness. (a few other people's posts hinted coaching as well). Metaing does not work on everyone, nor should you only apply it to specific players. GM not fitting meta = death should have led DrH as well as others to death as well.
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I 100% agree that protrac should have been pretty much entirely ignored after he claimed assassin, but I don't get this 'known liar' phrase that gets thrown around all the time-- Like, he's lied before so obviously everything he says is a lie? Does that imply that people who haven't lied are to be trusted? Seems like a pretty risky way of deciding who to believe. The real reason not to trust him on his dt claim d2 wasn't because he was a 'proven liar' or anything like that but because there was no situation in which his play up to that point would have been reasonable UNLESS he was assassin. It makes no sense to claim assassin n1 if you're blue, even I can see that 
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On April 24 2011 17:00 Eiii wrote:I 100% agree that protrac should have been pretty much entirely ignored after he claimed assassin, but I don't get this 'known liar' phrase that gets thrown around all the time-- Like, he's lied before so obviously everything he says is a lie? Does that imply that people who haven't lied are to be trusted? Seems like a pretty risky way of deciding who to believe. The real reason not to trust him on his dt claim d2 wasn't because he was a 'proven liar' or anything like that but because there was no situation in which his play up to that point would have been reasonable UNLESS he was assassin. It makes no sense to claim assassin n1 if you're blue, even I can see that
The rule of LaL is a very good one for a reason. Townies have so very few cases in which lying isn't the shittiest thing they can do that if you find someone lying consistantly they should be a policy lynch/vig. The only reason FW wasn't put in this category was it was accepted he was an assassin. As such you ignore him.
Confirmed liar comes from "im assassin no wait im a dt"
Then outright lying about his check even after being called out on it. Every game you take differently but the moment someone lies in a game they should die/ignored. The more severe the lie the more likely they are to get killed.
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LaL is fine (I guess-- I don't have that much experience), until you lynch someone knowing that lynching them hurts town more than it helps. I agree that protrac's black/blue claims make him clearly a liar-- but that confirms that he's black and should be ignored, not that he should be lynched. Again, I don't disagree that he had a track record of lying, but his claims shouldn't have been ignored because he was a 'known liar' (I still hate that term wtf) but because if you looked at the actions he took given the situation he was in, it was clear that he was a black trying a last-ditch plan to save his ass.
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On April 24 2011 12:30 Jackal58 wrote:
2 questions.
Which one of you nimrods shot me.
How did Proact and others manage to play under one name?
LemonWalrus was my shot after being preempted on LSB. I'm clean, man!
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On April 25 2011 02:13 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2011 12:30 Jackal58 wrote:
2 questions.
Which one of you nimrods shot me.
How did Proact and others manage to play under one name? LemonWalrus was my shot after being preempted on LSB. I'm clean, man!
Actually, after finishing the thread, apparently LemonWalrus was also a mafia hit. So my bullet just disappeared and never came back.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On April 25 2011 02:29 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 02:13 urashimakt wrote:On April 24 2011 12:30 Jackal58 wrote:
2 questions.
Which one of you nimrods shot me.
How did Proact and others manage to play under one name? LemonWalrus was my shot after being preempted on LSB. I'm clean, man! Actually, after finishing the thread, apparently LemonWalrus was also a mafia hit. So my bullet just disappeared and never came back.
lol that means you still had your shot to use.
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On April 25 2011 02:44 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 02:29 urashimakt wrote:On April 25 2011 02:13 urashimakt wrote:On April 24 2011 12:30 Jackal58 wrote:
2 questions.
Which one of you nimrods shot me.
How did Proact and others manage to play under one name? LemonWalrus was my shot after being preempted on LSB. I'm clean, man! Actually, after finishing the thread, apparently LemonWalrus was also a mafia hit. So my bullet just disappeared and never came back. lol that means you still had your shot to use.
Not to my knowledge. The first night I shot, BB let me know my bullet came back. The second night, I got no such notice. I assumed I had killed LemonWalrus.
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So who the hell was the vigi that never claimed? I must know!
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On April 25 2011 02:47 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 02:44 kitaman27 wrote:On April 25 2011 02:29 urashimakt wrote:On April 25 2011 02:13 urashimakt wrote:On April 24 2011 12:30 Jackal58 wrote:
2 questions.
Which one of you nimrods shot me.
How did Proact and others manage to play under one name? LemonWalrus was my shot after being preempted on LSB. I'm clean, man! Actually, after finishing the thread, apparently LemonWalrus was also a mafia hit. So my bullet just disappeared and never came back. lol that means you still had your shot to use. Not to my knowledge. The first night I shot, BB let me know my bullet came back. The second night, I got no such notice. I assumed I had killed LemonWalrus.
Not true. I sent you a PM saying you got your shot back, and the next night you shot someone else. I have the PMs, if you want.
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LAL is shit. The reactions to Protact were worth it. I think I made a point on it not mattering what he is saying, but that the reactions from GM and coag were legitimate. Threatening to follow FW with the coag lynch would have never made GM say he was going to use his pardon if coag was town. I think we would have dropped it if the reactions were different.
The assassin game ending that fast was a godsend. 3rd party means natural confusion in the thread, which mafia can use to hide behind and it never really benefits town, even if a 3rd party claims like protact did. Coag should have focused on civilly telling us that listening to protact was clearly retarded instead of shouting in caps and getting himself modkilled. Doesn't matter what its about coag, posting like that repeatedly gets you modkilled  If Co, Ser and Milk stayed in the game it would have been a lot closer, and they could have tried to formulate more plans. I really think you should have shot kita, chaoser and I really quickly, or at least try. When active players idly say someone is scum without much analysis yet, it's probably smart to kill them before they do. (kita was only one who fingered darth, chaoser didn't really push GM hard enough to warrant a lynch on him if chaoser died.) The things with Dr. H wasn't really him killing kav, it was not lumping GM with him as well. Then the coag/GM thing bought him some townie points, where I thought he would have figured out a better way to handle everything with mafia. Then, when no one said anything more then "If dr h is mafia we are in trouble" rather then actively trying to prove he was kinda threw me off, funny as that sounds. I thought mafia would obviously try bringing heat on the doctor, but they didn't which made me really fear he was scum. But I trusted my ending gut that he wasn't, so when I died I prayed he wasn't. It usually is the simple solution, Occam's razor really is a good method most of the time.
I was desperate for BB to give me scum this game, because I pretty much had GM down, and I had already wrote the analysis up. Thought GM could make a fantastic bus with the pardoning thing. Then I felt Dr. H would make a fantastic obvious connection, netting me so much ground in both town believing me, and removing threats for scum.
Imagine my surprise when I get medic. Oh here everyone have this damning analysis on GM, hope I don't get shot!
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Mr Wiggles the Assassin shot aidnai the medic, that wasn't a vig shot.
I killed serejai, chaoser killed LSB.
The last vig, urishakt must have done one of the night 3 kills.
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And the reason I supported Protact for pardoner was because a mafia Prince of Darkness would suck. At least Protact would have no reason to use the pardon.
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On April 25 2011 04:51 GGQ wrote:
And the reason I supported Protact for pardoner was because a mafia Prince of Darkness would suck. At least Protact would have no reason to use the pardon.
Thanks for killing serejai, he was getting on my nerves. Also they are going to bust out the he will use pardon when he feels like he could win argument.
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On Protactinium.
I knew that flamewheel was smurfing in this game. I didn’t know which player he was. I was unaware that Protactinuim was a known AKA. It was first brought to my attention that there was triple smurfing going on by Qatol. He told me who the other players were and told me that Ver had been part of the balancing of the game but that Ver had sworn he couldn’t remember the specifics. With Qatol’s assurance that the smurf didn’t have any information the players didn’t I PM’d BB and asked what our official response would be. We were both annoyed that they hadn’t told us but we decided just to keep things quiet and wait for the smurf to die before broaching the topic (at the time it appeared as though the smurf would be killed within 24 hours). If all had gone according to plan then once the smurf had died BB and I would have gone to the ban thread to open discussion. I wanted (and still do want) FW Ver and Incognito to be required to play two or three non smurf games before they could smurf again. They violated smurfing rules by not telling us about it but beyond that I don’t think they violated game rules as I am willing to trust Qatol that Ver knew nothing about the setup.
Unfortunately the thread got wind of this somehow. Now how this happened brings up an issue I’ll address further on but for now I’ll stick with the issue at hand. A LOT of people wanted the smurf to be killed right away; however BB and I had already made our decision so as far as I was concerned the case was closed. This really incensed the mafia team and a bunch of townies but I maintain that the right decision was made. Modkilling the smurf would have been a really unnecessary bit of tampering with a game that was volatile enough without the drama involved in a high profile modkill. Furthermore the smurf broke no game rules in any obvious manner. If you read the eight simple rules in the OP there are none that the smurf obviously violated. In the absence of a blatant rule break I simply cannot see the logic of a modkill in this situation.
On Coagulation.
I disagree with the decision to modkill him. Plain and simple. Qatol actually asked me if I should maybe modkill him before BB even arrived in the thread however I decided not to. At that point Coag was dead, he’d been all but confirmed mafia and he was shot at by all three vigis. In the mafia IRC a bunch of them were talking about quitting the game over the pardon (yet another thing I’ll address later) Coag was convinced that he was worthless to his team but I told him to stick it out and try and stir things up and try and WIFOM the town to death. When he offered to post the hit list I was actually applauding because it was an excellent move to derail the town into discussing worthless details and would have given some of the mafia a chance to get under cover in the chaos.
Qatol later PM’d me saying that he agreed with my decision to go no modkill and in fact Ver agreed that there was no issue with what Coag was doing. Now the argument can be made that this was a behavior modkill but that’s just bullshit. This was an extremely spammy and flammy game, Coag was by no means and angel but if his behavior warranted a modkill than there were at least 3 others who should have gone as well. BB never consulted me about this action and I do not agree with it at all, however if BB is still seeking a ban than I have no choice to support it as his cohost, but I strongly encourage him to rethink this rash decision.
On the Pardon.
This is a decision that had the entire mafia team ready to quit. I understand their frustration completely; I understand what being on the shit end of a mod decision is like. The insane 2 mafia team had a similar incident, RoL and LSB didn’t have a grudge match for nothing . The fault here lies on both BB and me. I was unaware what BB had said to the mafia regarding pardons. The only PM regarding BB saying something to the mafia that I ever saw was just him telling them the pardoner couldn’t pardon himself. I was forced to make my decision based on what the OP said which was that the pardoner couldn’t pardon himself. I am aware that it said no lynch would take place if the pardon ability was used however in since the pardoner was the one who would be saved by the no lynch I determined that it amounted to the pardoner saving himself. I’d like it to be made clear that I didn’t make this decision in a vacuum, Qatol and I talked this over and he agreed with my decision. Once again I’d like to apologize to the mafia that events didn’t happen the way they expected, however I hope they realize the logic behind my decision and understand why and how it was made.
On outside of the thread posting.
Ok so this was something that DrH raised about people discussing the game outside of the thread. His issue was with two posts by Serajai soft claiming blue in DrH’s signup thread. At the time these concerns were voiced to me I was knee deep in sorting out the protact/pardon situation and I told DrH that I didn’t think it was that big of a deal (or something to that extent, didn’t save the IRC log). However the more I think about it the more I realize that it actually is a problem and I’ve also realized Serajai isn’t the only person guilty of this.
The reason this is a problem is that it violates the no PM rule. No PM basically means all discussion MUST take place inside the thread. By posting ANYTHING related to the game outside of the thread it opens a huge can of worms with speculation and WIFOM. Was it a noobie mistake or was it a calculated mafia slip? Since anywhere outside of the thread isn’t part of the game the assumption becomes that it was a noobie mistake. However in the case of Serajai, the mafia was trying to make a little move to appear more town. Not bad but the problem is no outside of thread discussion is allowed. While not as bad as an actual PM I still feel like this violates the theory of no PM.
But like I said before Serejai isn’t the only person. There were a bunch of times I’d see people talking in the IRC channel. Nothing ever as bad as Serejai however it still violates the no PM rule because you could get a gut read about what someone says in IRC, an IRC which not everybody is in thus making it a quasi PM. I love the IRC, I think it’s cool that we all use it, however we need to build a culture of absolute silence in regards to ongoing games. Even flippant remarks can have an impact. And if you really do want to talk about the ongoing game and are dead then there are dead person IRC’s to do so. Basically my take home message for all of you is that we need to be more careful with how we act outside of the thread in no PM games to maintain the integrity of the rule.
On my own lack of presence in the thread.
Several times people would come into IRC and tell me that there was a question in the thread. The reason I choose not to answer them was to avoid the very situation that occurred with the pardon, namely, my answer would contradict something already said by BB in private or it would contradict a TL mafia precedent. In my first game as cohost I accidentally confirmed a major player to a medic because I told him mafia couldn’t hit themselves. I wanted to avoid something similar in this game; if anyone asked me a question via PM I ran it through BB first. Unfortunately I couldn’t do this with questions in the thread because if BB wasn’t answering them than he was out. The day before the pardon fiasco I actually asked Qatol if he would answer MY questions about TL mafia tradition so I would be able to address the questions that were backing up in the thread.
Aftermath.
I’d like to take this opportunity to apologize to anyone who is pissed at me for my ingame decisions (looking at you BC <3). But I want this to serve as an explanation for why things went down how they went down. I want Incognito, Ver, and flamewheel to play at least two games on their normal accounts before smurfing again. I do not want Coag to get banned. I want us all to work on keeping the game discussion in the game (I know people, the IRC makes it hard).
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On April 24 2011 13:25 DropBear wrote:
Tnkted, I hope you enjoyed your stint in the Mafia IRC after you died. It’s pretty interesting in there as you found out!
I did, as a matter of fact, it was a even more fun when you have everybody's roles! And for the record, (you couldn't read it) in the dead person's channel I said several times that I thought you were playing very well. You were last on my suspect list, I was entirely caught off guard by the fact that you were mafia. Keep up the good work.
On April 24 2011 15:29 BrownBear wrote:
DropBear: if you and Meapak do grudgematch, I want to cast it ^^
I'm casting too, I call it. Decon, feel up for streamin' again?
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EPT
