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I'm just going to answer this here
On April 10 2011 15:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 14:46 Kavdragon wrote:
Right, got distracted and now I have no time, so here's the short version:
RoL doesn't like LSB's style of modding, in general.
During the first day of Insane several events frustrated RoL, each snowballing into more frustration.
During night two, something didn't work out, and RoL got mad. While he was angry with what happened, he talked to LSB. At one point he asked to be subbed out, and almost imediantly LSB did just that. After cooling down, RoL regretted subbing out, but agreed that he asked for it and had no one to blame but himself.
However, RoL's classic raging was further reaching than just RoL. Because of RoL's raging, mafia team became convinced that they were being jipped, and cheated, and thought that they couldn't win. They more or less gave up at that point. (Meapak may be an acception to this, but the majority as a whole gave up)
After all this, there was a lot of pent up frustration stemming from a few mistakes on LSB's part, but nothing that he did warrented the QQ reaction by the mafia.
tl;dr: A few mistakes were made, RoL raged, the mafia caught his rage, and then they snowballed it into something much larger than it should have been.
As an addendum, my rage stems from LSB simply not putting thought into decisions and doing things on a whim. The last few pages of insane mafia capture both sides arguments fairly well.
Frankly, I didn't make any mistakes at all. The only 'mistakes' I made is you QQing about how I didn't side with the mafia on every issue.
Tough luck, the bus driver destroyed your plan. Just because one night action didn't work out doesn't mean you should whine about it.
I didn't 'decide this on a whim', I considered the implications of letting the town overule the mafia or the mafia overruling the town. If you can think of a more fair resolution of actions please let me know. Please note, saying Puppetteer controls everything carte blanca is not fair, it is simply you whining for more powers
Likewise for the black market, just because your team didn't do anything at all but sit back and watch the blacks make deals doesn't mean you can whine about balance.
This reminds me of Junior Highers, whining about balance when they did nothing to try to play the game.
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LSB, you are straight up lying. The PM chain shows you made a favorable decision to the bus driver just because he pmed you more. And don't tell me you thought out all the implications of him being able to bus himself. If you actually thought it out you would realize that having a busdriver who can bus himself in a game is generally broken to begin with. Having a bus driver who can bus himself in a game with puppeteer/roleblock in it makes no sense at all it doesn't allow you to logically map out the actions.
By sheer virtue of him bussing himself it doesn't allow you to resolve what happens first, his bus of himself or my mind control of him. This is shown when you have "Physics fail" as our actions resolution. You didn't think it through properly and made a retarded as fuck decision by ON A WHIM BECAUSE HE ASKED allowing tnkted to bus himself. If you saw the implications of allowing that and still allowed it, then you are an idiot. That obviously isn't the case though, you did it without realizing how it would fuck over action resolution than wouldn't go back on it.
The part that pisses me off about it though is that you have the balls to try and say "It's mafia fault for not asking the right questions!" No, it's mafia fault for not saying "Hey, if a bus driver hypothetically existed he wouldn't be able to bus drive himself, RIGHT?" before tnkted asked if he could bus drive himself.
The reason I wouldn't ask such a stupid question is because the only thing that should stop my bus, is if I somehow got role blocked which is impossible. Logically him being able to bus himself makes our actions unresolvable, doesn't punish him for claiming like you said this game would, and furthermore with a mayor in play makes him pseudo-invincible, or requiring a roleblock + hit to kill.
So tell me, how are you blaming night 2 on mafia incompetence outright while claiming you thought everything through? The implications above are clear. You fucked up, and now you are unable to admit you fucked up. No host is perfect, hell I even fucked up a few times hosting in games. The difference is I admit when I fuck up.
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Lets check out your problems with my decision
Having a bus driver who can bus himself in a game with puppeteer/roleblock in it makes no sense at all it doesn't allow you to logically map out the actions.
This sounds just like in Insane Mafia 1 when Ace said that the watcher role meant that he was suppose to watch whoever was coming to visit, not a tracker role.
Oh wait, Ace was mafia and was BSing an argument to try to divert a lynch.
More importantly, I copy pasted the role PM from Insane Mafia 1, so you knew exactly what to expect. I don't see how you can argue that "oh things were different!"
The reason I wouldn't ask such a stupid question is because the only thing that should stop my bus, is if I somehow got role blocked which is impossible. Logically him being able to bus himself makes our actions unresolvable, doesn't punish him for claiming like you said this game would, and furthermore with a mayor in play makes him pseudo-invincible, or requiring a roleblock + hit to kill.
I don't see how you can say expect that the mafia team is invincible at night and should be able to do whatever they want. Clearly with multiple factions and multiple roles Mafia did not have free reign at night. The indicators of two separate PM circles should have hinted to you that I wasn't going to make this an EZ win at night game for the mafia. That's the problem with the mafia team's philosophy, you guys thought you could win everything by making correct night actions.
The PM chain shows you made a favorable decision to the bus driver just because he pmed you more.
Yes I did not anticipate the Mafia Puppeteer trying to control the bus driver who bussed himself, so I made the decision as fair as possible. So can you show me how the decision is more favorable to the bus driver?
You still haven't answered my challenge + Show Spoiler + If you can think of a more fair resolution of actions please let me know.
In addition the tnkted PMed me at 3/28 11:33. 30 minutes after the start of day 2.
No, it's mafia fault for not saying "Hey, if a bus driver hypothetically existed he wouldn't be able to bus drive himself, RIGHT?" before tnkted asked if he could bus drive himself.
You guys PMed me two days after I talked with tnkted -.-
You fucked up, and now you are unable to admit you fucked up.
I did apologize for the misunderstanding, however my problem is that instead of accepting it and moving on, the mafia team decided to turn the quicktopic into a SC2 live report and nearly everyone decided to just give up in thread.
Besides Meapak, every member of the mafia did not do anything at all in thread but lurk.
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On April 11 2011 02:23 LSB wrote:Lets check out your problems with my decision Show nested quote +Having a bus driver who can bus himself in a game with puppeteer/roleblock in it makes no sense at all it doesn't allow you to logically map out the actions. This sounds just like in Insane Mafia 1 when Ace said that the watcher role meant that he was suppose to watch whoever was coming to visit, not a tracker role. Oh wait, Ace was mafia and was BSing an argument to try to divert a lynch. More importantly, I copy pasted the role PM from Insane Mafia 1, so you knew exactly what to expect. I don't see how you can argue that "oh things were different!"
This argument doesn't even apply here. Ace argued that kita's(?) role couldn't be true because the description wasn't accurate to what it actually did, which was just the host reversing the descriptions. It was an argument made to discredit kita enough to get him off a lynch. That had nothing to do with action resolution. Your argument makes absolutely no sense.
Show nested quote +The reason I wouldn't ask such a stupid question is because the only thing that should stop my bus, is if I somehow got role blocked which is impossible. Logically him being able to bus himself makes our actions unresolvable, doesn't punish him for claiming like you said this game would, and furthermore with a mayor in play makes him pseudo-invincible, or requiring a roleblock + hit to kill. I don't see how you can say expect that the mafia team is invincible at night and should be able to do whatever they want. Clearly with multiple factions and multiple roles Mafia did not have free reign at night. The indicators of two separate PM circles should have hinted to you that I wasn't going to make this an EZ win at night game for the mafia. That's the problem with the mafia team's philosophy, you guys thought you could win everything by making correct night actions.
What does this have to do with the mafia team being invincible at night? Absolutely nothing. You are retarded. You decided our plan shouldn't work because it would make us "invincible?" That doesn't even make sense. The point is you made actions you couldn't adequately resolve which lead to the stupidest outcome. "Physics fail" isn't a real resolution to those powers. You could of went by whoever sent in actions first got priority IF you wanted to make the bus driver able to bus himself. But that isn't even a fair way to resolve it. Straight up. You shouldn't of allowed the bus driver to bus himself. That's it.
Show nested quote +The PM chain shows you made a favorable decision to the bus driver just because he pmed you more. Yes I did not anticipate the Mafia Puppeteer trying to control the bus driver who bussed himself, so I made the decision as fair as possible. So can you show me how the decision is more favorable to the bus driver? You still haven't answered my challenge + Show Spoiler + If you can think of a more fair resolution of actions please let me know. In addition the tnkted PMed me at 3/28 11:33. 30 minutes after the start of day 2. Show nested quote +No, it's mafia fault for not saying "Hey, if a bus driver hypothetically existed he wouldn't be able to bus drive himself, RIGHT?" before tnkted asked if he could bus drive himself.
You guys PMed me two days after I talked with tnkted -.-
The decision is favorable to the bus driver because he is pseudo invincible. How don't you understand this? He can bus himself with the mayor or any other player and the mafia CANNOT KILL HIM. That is unless we manage to target the person he is switching himself with, which just turns it into a guessing game anyway.
To your little challenge. Here is the answer. Do NOT allow the bus driver to bus himself. It is not in his role PM that he CAN. Hell, if you want to even use flavor text to interpret this, how do you expect him to "Kidnap" himself?
You saying tnkted PMed you 2 days before we did just proves my point that you just sided with whoever asked the question more favorable to them first. If I checked to make sure that the BD couldn't bus drive himself, then he wouldn't of been able to. Enough said.
I did apologize for the misunderstanding, however my problem is that instead of accepting it and moving on, the mafia team decided to turn the quicktopic into a SC2 live report and nearly everyone decided to just give up in thread. Besides Meapak, every member of the mafia did not do anything at all in thread but lurk.
No, you didn't apologize for it. You blamed us for not asking the "right" questions, said we shouldn't expect to win with night actions (Uh mafia's job is to kill everyone at night, why wouldn't we expect to do that?) then claimed we lacked a thread presence and we tried to sit back, do nothing, and win. Which isn't true. I posted a lot in the thread, if I remember right last week I had 150 posts most of which were mafia. If that's not good enough for you then sorry, but it's the best I could do with the other shit I am doing. But even with this last part you persist in blaming the mafia's inactivity for our loss, which may be a contributing factor but considering that for two nights in a row you did retarded shit that screwed us we can hardly be accountable.
To explain what those things were. During night 1 annul rages and says blow up my potato or sub me out. What do you do instead? You decide to put a hit out on him and award the reds/blacks or whoever decides to do it. Since his potato COULD explode the mafia run the risk of dying when it happens, assuming he didn't force detonation, which we had every reason to believe he did. INSTEAD I decide to force coagulation to kill annul assuming he had a high probability of blowing up. Instead of having the potato blow up, you decide to remove it from the game. Screwing over our plan while also awarding the blacks 2 million for something no one had the ability to do without risk except for them.
Fine whatever fuck us then, I let that slide even though when I specifically asked you, you told me annul said he didn't blow himself up, but when I asked annul he told me his last message was "sub me out, or blow me up." You resolved that in a retarded way which clearly benefited one side over the others. On a related note, why didn't you do the SAME THING when I ragequit? OR replace me with a bot? Instead you sub me out 2 minute after I raged.
When I had to deal with that stupid/unfair decision then had to deal with another one that was even fucking dumber, you expect me not to be annoyed? Then you defend your decision and blame us when I point out how dumb it was. You claimed my MC power was too strong, but I couldn't even FORCE people to use their powers, simply put if someone chose NOT to use their power mine was also wasted.
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On April 11 2011 04:43 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
The decision is favorable to the bus driver because he is pseudo invincible. How don't you understand this? He can bus himself with the mayor or any other player and the mafia CANNOT KILL HIM. That is unless we manage to target the person he is switching himself with, which just turns it into a guessing game anyway.
*facepalm*
The whole point is that the bus wouldn't work either. They would cancel each other.
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Powers shouldn't cancel each other out Decon, that is really stupid. The only power that should ever cancel something out is role block. If you want to push this example further, imagine if tnkted bused himself while getting role blocked? The actions would fail and cancel each other out again. But that is basically the same as a roleblock..? It is just poor implementation which wad done on a whim, which is why I am annoyed.
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Okay, your just making stuff up Rol. You clearly have no idea what was going on in the game, and you still have no idea what is going on.
The only reason why you are complaining right now is because you are whining about why you didn't get better treatment than others. You got the same treatment. Both you and tnkted's actions were canceled. Both you and annul were dealt with ASAP. I don't see why you think you deserve more
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And I already PMed you about this.
I don't know what your are trying to prove. Here's my PM to you again
-.-
Original Message From annul:
revoke use of potato.
if hes a night vig i probably cant use it anyway, and if he isnt, then i dont want to use potato
Original Message From RebirthOfLeGenD: Annul Vapore (1:34:16 PM): my final command to LSB was Annul Vapore (1:34:29 PM): "replace me, or blow up my potato, or whatever you want, but i am done playing this game." Show nested quote +Hide nested quote - Original Message From LSB: -.- I have a message saying to cancel the action Original Message From RebirthOfLeGenD:
Annul told you to blow him up.
Screwing over our plan while also awarding the blacks 2 million for something no one had the ability to do without risk except for them.
So you are saying it is unfair that the mafia couldn't kill annul without dieing if Annul blew up... and then you guys proceeded to kill annul without any chance of losses by Mind controlling coag.
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Sigh, your own rules around my role stated I can only manipulate an action. I can't force one. I was hoping coagulation tried to kill someone so I could get coagulation killed by redirecting it. Your argument is not valid that I killed him without risk because there was a penalty if we FAILED to kill him as well.
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Keep in mind, the mafia had access to 2 KP + their mindcontrol on coag.
So you are saying its not fair that the blacks had to waste 100% of their night KP to get 2 million which in the end didn't turn out to be worth anything?
In addition, if you truly cared about the contract, you would have bid on it, and maybe even send someone to shoot annul, knowing there was only a 25% of the potato exploding, and if it did explode and you lost a member, you would receive hazard pay.
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On April 11 2011 05:19 LSB wrote:
Okay, your just making stuff up Rol. You clearly have no idea what was going on in the game, and you still have no idea what is going on.
The only reason why you are complaining right now is because you are whining about why you didn't get better treatment than others. You got the same treatment. Both you and tnkted's actions were canceled. Both you and annul were dealt with ASAP. I don't see why you think you deserve more
are
you
seriously
this
fucking
dense?
Just because we both got canceled out does NOT mean the action was fair. Canceling each other out CLEARLY fucking benefits the bus driver. My point is that the RESOLUTION WAS STUPID AS FUCK BECAUSE IT SHOULDN'T OF EVEN BEEN POSSIBLE TO BEGIN WITH.
Mine and annul's situations were dealt with completely different, and for the last time I don't give a shit about that. I quit the game, I don't care. It's just proof of you doing shit on the fly without putting thought into anything.
I will try to break this down One. More. Fucking. Time.
Mind control should not be avoidable in any situation, simply because of the nature of the power.
A bus driver being able to BUS HIMSELF is a broken role, even if you DON'T have the issue of action resolution to take into account. When you have mind control and a bus driver, the bus driver being able to bus himself allows him to claim in thread without any sort of repercussions because of how you are resolving the actions. The MAIN point behind this is that you decided to allow him to bus drive himself because he PMed you asking if he could. I argue that inversely if I asked first, then he wouldn't of been able to bus himself simply because YOU decided with whoever asked you first.
Just because a resolution is EQUAL does not mean it was fair or right.
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On April 11 2011 05:44 LSB wrote:
Keep in mind, the mafia had access to 2 KP + their mindcontrol on coag.
So you are saying its not fair that the blacks had to waste 100% of their night KP to get 2 million which in the end didn't turn out to be worth anything?
In addition, if you truly cared about the contract, you would have bid on it, and maybe even send someone to shoot annul, knowing there was only a 25% of the potato exploding, and if it did explode and you lost a member, you would receive hazard pay.
You are retarded. No. Just fucking no. I am done with this argument, you are seriously retarded.
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Bus Driver. Mad Hatter.
2 worst roles. God told me so.
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On April 11 2011 05:51 Ace wrote:
Bus Driver. Mad Hatter.
2 worst roles. God told me so.
PLEASE TALK WITH GUNS. WE NEED MORE GUNS IN THIS THREAD.
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When you have mind control and a bus driver, the bus driver being able to bus himself allows him to claim in thread without any sort of repercussions because of how you are resolving the actions.
Which was offset by the fact that the busdriver in Insane Mafia 1 was a mafia role, and once tntked claimed in thread, people immediately suspected him
-.-
Apparently I thought through this a lot more than you did.
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kitaman27
United States9244 Posts
On April 11 2011 05:53 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 05:51 Ace wrote:
Bus Driver. Mad Hatter.
2 worst roles. God told me so. PLEASE TALK WITH GUNS. WE NEED MORE GUNS IN THIS THREAD.
Any shots you take will be busdrivered to yourself.
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United States22154 Posts
I just had to weigh in on this, clearly the only way to satisfactorily resolve this argument is to have a Bo7 show-match between RoL and LSB, so guys, SC2 or scbw?
Also the whole mafia forums get to spectate
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Don't play starcraft2, and I suck at brood war.
How about tetris or kart rider?
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Here is what we will do. Each pick a game we are both familiar with. We alternate 3 games each. Meaning let's say I pick BW and you pick SF4. We go
1. BW
2. SF4
3. BW
4. SF4
5.BW
6.SF4
If after these games we are tied 3-3 we will have an Ace match. We will meet in a neutral location inside Qatol and DreamFlower's apartment where we will live stream a Knife-edge deathmatch to determine the winner.
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EPT
