EPTBC and RoL: Salem Mafia
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
Keep an eye out for bullshit like "nothing 2 talk about day 1 so let's just lynch this handpicked group of inactives (who are probably all townies)" Discussion points: -How to unite town circle -How/when roleclaims should be done and handled -Possible medic/dt actions I was going to say the paranoid villager should claim but I didn't realize that it was reworked into the vet role, so PV should not claim under any circumstance. Usually the PV kills whoever visits him and needs to either claim to avoid dt/medic deaths (if he is bad) and if he is good should goad mafia into trying to hit him by claiming DT or something like that. DT's only claim if you find mafia and you think you might be able to catch another mafia or two from their lynch. If you can just make a great case that will lead to a lynch without roleclaiming, please do that. The mafia have an information advantage over us and we don't need to make that worse than it already is. Be wary of people who try to get you to roleclaim in PM's. If you are PMing with somebody you find suspicious, open up a third party with a player you trust so that if you die incriminating information doesn't go to waste. For instance: -mafia x pms townie y and gets him to roleclaim DT -mafia hits townie y -no one knows townie y claimed to mafia x but if townie y pms townie z and tells him "I claimed my role to player x and if i die he is likely mafia" or something like that then townie z can reveal that after y's death and mafia x will be lynched Medics: protect veterans or anyone dumb enough to PUBLICLY roleclaim a good blue role. if they claim it to you in PM, that isn't enough to prot them since that's information mafia doesn't necessarily have. being a good medic is about understanding mafia priorities which is: 1. best/veteran players 2. blue roles 3. confusion targets (a confusion target is a townie who is intentionally hit to misguide the town. i.e townie A bandwagons townie B and mafia hit townie A to make townie B look bad.) 4. random town members don't worry too much about WIFOM, stick with your convictions. just protect who you think is gonna get hit, it's pretty simple. be slightly wary of anyone who comes out super early and says "omg im role x i need medic protection really really bad", that's a shitty play and it might be to draw medics away. those are my 2 cents for now. i'm working all throughout black friday. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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more often than not you get a townie on it. it's not enough to start a lynch, make it part of your case, there has to be other incriminating behavior in it as well. if you could just robo-find mafia with scumtells from the mafiascum wiki this game would be too easy. particularly in a game with a lot of new players, it's a bit harder to define since bad/new townies might play a little scummily | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
90% of shit in mafia is WIFOM, it's compltely necessary to analyze posting behavior there is a point where an argument becomes so WIFOM that it's terrible though. also i know pv is vigilante that's what i said that i originally didn't actually read the role descriptions and just assumed pv was something else. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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On November 26 2010 19:51 Scaramanga wrote: Whats WIFOM mean? http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Wine_In_Front_Of_Me it's like when u try to say "oh mafia killed this guy because he caught a mafia, or maybe they killed him because he accused a townie and they want to mindfuck is, or maybe they thought we would know that and killed him anyway, or maybe they..." and it's just an infinite circle of maybe they thought this or that and in reality u can't know what they thought | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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DoctorHelvetica
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On November 27 2010 05:56 BrownBear wrote: And so far, nobody has really shown themselves to be either particularly pro or anti-town. For now, I'm voting myself for mayor as a placeholder (although I actually might try to run, depending on the other candidates). I'm starting to think it might be just a great idea to just start throwing votes-for-lynch on the nonspeakers, try and get them to talk. If we can't find anyone, this game is large enough for us to get away with lynching an inactive purely based on their inactivity, at least the first day. To that end, I'm voting that the mayor should lynch georgeclooney. Get to talkin' boy. but he's a celebrity D: | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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On November 27 2010 06:40 kitaman27 wrote: He makes a good point. We should lynch DoctorHelvetica due to his non-celebrity status. if u look at my profile you can see i am actually thom yorke, a famous british musician we can decide if we're lynching an inactive later, because we don't know that no one will post scummily yet and that there will be no discussion. if we do lynch an inactive it should be a newer player and it should be RNG'd so that the mafia can't force us to pick a townie inactive v.s a mafia inactive i want to talk about how we best form a town circle and prevent godfather from infecting it too badly | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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I know one player who is almost certainly a confirmed medic I know one player who is either a blue role or a red role (not green) So the first player, I'm pretty sure people can trust. If I reveal his name he will be a prime suspect for mafia protection. If he is willing, my current proposition is to have him protect me like a bodyguard indefinitely and then I can coordinate the town network but there are problems with that: -you guys have to trust me, but I think I proved my leadership prowess in Insane Mafia and I promise to improve as town in this game (if youngminii doesn't shoot me) -mafia can double, even triple hits on me The other possibility is if a DT checks someone who is newer/less experienced (thus an unlikely elder candidate) and finds them to be a role that a godfather would not likely choose, they can tell that person that they checked them and found them safe and then start a network through that person without revealing their name in the thread. This would create a kinda weird assassin in the palace type situation where not everyone necessarily knows the name of the confirmed townie and only people who seem really pro-town get the information if mafia never get the information it might start to get obvious by the way they post in the thread if it is steered correctly i.e: someone in the pro-town circle starts fake bandwagon on confirmed town player -several mafia jump on it -town reveals the player in question was our confirmed town guy -reverse bandwagon onto mafia but again that depends on having a very small and limited circle which has not been penetrated by mafia. just some ideas floating around in my mind. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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On November 27 2010 06:53 Aeres wrote: No, of course not. I just meant waiting a couple hours or so so there's a greater chance of more people being here. But what do I know? I'm merely the captain of a sunken ship... no more fake roleclaims in this game aeres! | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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if he claims DT or medic mafia will waste a hit on him. keep that in mind later in the game (don't fakeclaim day 1 lol it's 2 obvious try to make it seem real like u have some shit to say.) | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
so i'm still thinking about how to make this work. there is really no 100% foolproof safe way and in reality you want to get mafia in on the PM circle so that you can trap them easier the best thing is that only one person will know peoples roles and if I'm telling people about what others are saying I'll refer to them only as "the medic" "the DT" etc. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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On November 27 2010 07:24 jcarlsoniv wrote: Doc, how can you be sure that the information you have thus far concerning the town circle is accurate? Have they claimed to you? How can you tell that one is almost certainly medic and the other is blue or red? i sent out some random pm's for kicks and a player just immediately told me he was the medic i wasn't expecting that but it kinda gives me something to work with i guess. i told him to shut up and not tell anyone else though tip for town players: don't randomly roleclaim to people who PM you unrelated nonsense | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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also if he is mafia, i have him in a trap. if he is a mafia medic i can make sure certain people don't get hit, thus almost being something of a medic role myself, because if he tells me "i'm protecting player x" and then player x dies along with 2 others then he's in deep shit it's a senseless play though. of all the mafia roles to claim, medic doesn't give them a real early game advantage. at least thats how i see it. afaic i have no reason to distrust this player but i won't be giving him information on other players roles or anything | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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On November 27 2010 07:42 kitaman27 wrote: Am I the only one puzzled with the fact that a medic role claimed blindly to DrH without knowing his alignment? not as puzzled as me Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: i know why would you roleclaim to me so suddenly? i wasn't even going to ask, although I guess I can give you advice. Medic is a pretty easy role I think, just go after vets/anyone who roleclaims an important role like DT unless you're really suspicious. it's a role i always wish i would get but I never do. I think its playstyle suits me actually. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From SOMEBODY thats not even a role. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: cool i got dracula ----------------------------------------- Original Message From PLAYERDUDEGUY I got medic. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: whats up buttercup no harmful information here so feel free to analyse | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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On November 27 2010 07:51 Aeres wrote: So, from what I can glean from this, odds are good the Doc isn't a Medic. As for the mystery Medic in question, the way he seems oblivious to the Doc's Dracula "role claim" indicates that he's new to the game, and is fairly naïve about the gravity of role claims. I'd wager this is genuine, but since I'm the armchair psychologist here, don't take my word as gospel or anything. the dracula roleclaim was a dumb haunted mafia joke | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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DoctorHelvetica
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the nature of the roleclaim leads me to believe if it's true. i explained in pm to someone (i forgot who) why the medic claim, if fake, puts mafia in more harm then good anyway so for now it's a win/win situation for town with the medic thing. i trust him but not enough to reveal any crucial information to him. the fact that he roleclaimed to me allows me to put immense pressure on him and it is not a veteran player i trust to not fuck up. Don't roleclaim to me, I think the best way is for the DT to clear a path like Artanis is suggesting. Which, by the way, was my suggestion in the first place. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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On November 27 2010 09:19 JimboSilvers wrote: Hey guys, sorry it seems I'm late to the party  DrH, is there anymore to that PM chain? Did your mysterious person ever respond? Still though I dno't really feel like that's that safe to trust, especially since I'm confused as to how you could have a confirmed person so easily? It would really come down to all that you 'feel' about that person. Your reasoning kind of seems like you're WiFOMing yourself too... So lets call WIFOM on all analysis of behavior/psychology and not analyse this game at all? Insofar the medic gamble makes no sense to me as a mafia play, it was instant and it was something that was clearly not discussed/planned by a group as a whole. I trust this person insofar as I believe them personally to be town aligned but I do not trust them enough to reveal information to them YET. The mafia can "fake" medic perfectly by sacrificing one KP per night which is a winning situation for town as long as we restrict the flow of roleclaims/information to one person who was confirmed by a DT. A DT could confirm me since I've already begun something of a circle, I guess (i'm pming a lot) but mafia will inevitably twist it and make believe that I am surely the godfather. I think it is the best course of action to choose a relatively inexperienced/bad player to be confirmed. Someone like coagulation, georgeclooney, protactinium, or w/e there are a slew of newbies in this game | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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If he's mafia he's just inviting a ton of pressure on himself. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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MEDICCLAIMER: you're a much better player then me. I'm taking a gamble assuming your town.. but I already claimed to you. so if i die i die. however if you are really town then I will be best off working with you. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: maybe why so submissive? it's making me feel weird ----------------------------------------- Original Message From MEDICCLAIMER: I will let you call the shots. just pm who you want me to protect. I can prot you night 1 if you want. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: Please tell me who you protect each night. That way I can be sure you aren't mafia faking medic and if you just pick bullshit like random inactives for no reason then it'll be pretty obvious you're scum. If I know the name of a confirmed townie, I'll tell you so you can tell that person who you're protecting ahead of time. Maybe. If you do trust me you can tell me ahead of time. Because if it turns out that you protect someone and two people die (including them) and vet doesn't claim the hit then you're mafia. I trust you though, I don't think mafia would just blueclaim to me so brazenly and quickly. Don't claim to anyone else btw, just keep it on the down low. I'm going to try to start a town circle. If I find anyone who can be trusted, I'll refer you to them. There needs to be a level of disconnection so mafia/GF don't fuck everything up. I'm still trying to think of a safe link system or something i'll let u know I'm not going to reveal every single PM I get, but it's getting ridiculous that I'm being twisted as scum just because another player chose to roleclaim to me without prompt. If someone can explain how the medic claim is a good mafia play and how it will ruin us/hurt the town circle then that's fine. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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Hello there, We have been reading the thread lately and notice that you are very anti-town in your posts. It seems like you are constantly making things up. So, we have come to the conclusion that you must be the traitor. If you are the traitor, we would like you to acknowledge the fact. so that we do not target you. Reply There isn't a traitor in this game for one. Is he trying to catch me off guard and make me say something like "oh no i'm not the traitor I'm the X"? I'm assuming we is him and Flamewheel. This PM caught me off guard a bit since I was never accused of making things up and I'd like to know what exactly he thinks I'm lying about. I'm going to put the pressure on him in the open to give us something to discuss at least. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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DoctorHelvetica
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On November 27 2010 14:39 jcarlsoniv wrote: I got the exact same PM from him. Being the day after Thanksgiving, I sure have been caught up in festivities. It seemed odd to get this PM though. I have posted 2 (maybe 3?) times in the thread because of the holiday, so there was really nothing for them to analyze. I didn't make the connection that "we" could be protact and flamewheel. This seems like a really lame fishing attempt. well i sent people nonsensical pm's saying i was mafia and plz give me irc info and stuff like that maybe he sent it to a bunch of people to see how they'd react? | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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DoctorHelvetica
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how could a dt take initiative before rolechekcs go through ??? town circles immensely benefit town if done correctly. look at insane mafia where their first order of business was to shut down fishballs group and then to shut down bums group infiltration is possible but can work out in our favor. mafia are 10x more likely to screw up in pms than in thread and annul came pretty close to losing it all quite a few times in haunted what is your first priority for day 1 then if not discussing how pms will be utilized in the game | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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while proceeding to contribute zero and be inactive himself i expect better from an experienced player, even on day 1 | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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I'm mostly inclined to vote for BrownBear at the moment. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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It might reveal a little it of information (nothing definite) about his role, but it's led me to believe he could be chaos ensuant, | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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Im a special townie and no interesting things in PMs ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: Seriously considering voting for you. BB is a risky choice on Day 1 but I shake the feeling you're just one of those townies who fucks ups and always makes himself look kinda red. Why did you say "I can't die"? and did u hear anything interesting in PMs? that's from kenpachi earlier we had this conversation: DoctorHelvetica: it'll cause mad suspicions on me dude, dta is already trying to get me lynched just cause some idiot already roleclaimed to me i didn't get busdriver, i was kidding i'm not telling anybody my role yet. if a DT confirms to me or something then I'll confirm it to them, but for now my lips are sealed ;o as should yours be if you are a DT though, i may have some advice/use for you. don't tell me if you are, just take my advice in stride when I give it if you are the DT. if you know a DT, pass it on. i'd like to see you active in PM's in this game at least, since you don't really react much in thread ----------------------------------------- Original Message From Kenpachi: hey maybe you should reveal this PM in the thread to bait some scum who will try to alter this from blue or red role to confirmed red role(without my name and this reply ofc) Though, agressive players might take the bait and analyze this post like crazy.. If you feel this would cause suspicions on you, you dont have to. Also, do some, all or none of the green townies get some random role? you got busdriver and that isnt a blue role.. BTW, idk how you got the assumption that i cant be green ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: well i kno u cant be green since you said you're not miller i wont reveal u as probable blue/red thought. you don't have to roleclaim to me if you don't want but I am going to be trying to form a town circle. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From Kenpachi: or i might be a special townie :D ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: so ur just normal townie right ----------------------------------------- Original Message From Kenpachi: No.. im not the miller or a witch last time i checked (2 minutes ago) dunno if i can believe that your a DT ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: im the dt and i checked you you're mafia :/ r u the miller? now we had this exchange: well im saying special townie because you said you were busdriver and I got the assumption that normal townies might have some role. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: I feel uncomfortable about you why do you keep saying "special townie" role instead of blue? the only "special townies" are miller and chaos ensuant and you said you weren't the miller so i don't know what to think right now. but if you were chaos ensuant why would you hint that to me? So he thinks maybe he was a special townie because I knew I was "busdriver" (obvious fake claim/joke), then wouldn't he know what his special role is? He says "I can't die" as though he knows he has some important role purpose then when I ask him why he said that he says "Oh, I'm a special townie" when the only reason he was saying that was because he didn't read the rules/thread and just took what I said at face value. So Kenpachi: did u think maybe you had a special role as a townie that was hidden and secret from you? because in some of these PM's you seem pretty sure that is the case does he seriously misunderstand the rules that bad. why is he jumping from being unsure about whether or not he is special to being very sure and even using it as a case as to why he should not be lynched? kenpachi you need to explain this whole thing. order of conversations: the second quote was the first conversation we had then the first lastly the third note before the last 2 conversations I told him i was kidding about being the busdriver | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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pandain suggested you might be chaos ensuant and it makes sense considering your rhetoric. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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i have advice for dts. id prefer to start corresponding with one directly. you can check and confirm me or another player then talk to me through them so i dont know who you are check priority 1 is darth coag pandain aeres southrawrea are players i would check as well if i were a dt. im asking the medic claimer to protect me tonight. if a dt refers themselves to me i can pass the medic im aware of onto you. again, not asking for roleclaims. it would make my job easier but dont do anything you dont feel safe doing. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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i like your approach jimbo but ive revealed very little of what im doing in pm land so dont draw too many conclusions. i never thought anyone would take a joke like claiming busdriver or dracula seriously but people do react funnily when nonsensical claims and accusations are made and it can be very telling and its an easy way to get discussions rolling. i didnt really do anything in the way of traps and if i did i woudlnt reveal it unless i caught somebody ;o | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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Calling all the shots? I'm offering my thoughts, make of it what you will. But no I'm not trying to dominate the town or anything. DT claiming to me is up to the DT and like I said I advise the DT to take a safer route (check somebody, confirm them town, communicate to me through them without giving out names.) instead of fishing for the dt to roleclaim to me. He can always check me. You seem to be saying I want the DT to check me because i could be godfather but then you criticize me for making DTA my #1 priority DT check? If I was godfather I'd be begging the DT's to check me now. DTA is my #1 check because I feel most strongly he is scum (and I was right about BrownBear right?) there is nothing suspicious about that, don't try to make it sound like it is. The mouthpiece should act in the town circle and not claim publicly, that's my opinion. That way the mafia don't for sure know who it is. Killing the mouthpiece forces the DT to find a new mouthpiece and claim to a second person whereas the mouthpiece can simply move from person to person, adding another layer of protection i really really really don't think the claim was fake. it was too immediate, too stupid, and it makes very little sense on a metagame/theory level. i trust it, you don't have to. i don't even understand what kind of pressure you're trying to put on me. you're just saying a lot of obvious stuff, almost your whole post boils down to the point "nothing is 100% safe or certain" which is obvious in this game. and it also sounds like you are trying to make it seem like I'm telling the DT what to do when I'm offering several different courses of possible action/advice (something you're not doing and that is decidedly pro-town) again: i'm advising the DT to go through someone else and not to roleclaim to me directly. On November 28 2010 12:18 Aeres wrote: Just curious, why do you feel that I'm an important person to rolecheck? I have no objections to being checked, of course, but I do want to know why I'm on the list. Is it because of the Insane debacle, or a post I made here, or a PM I sent? Speaking as objectively as I can, I fail to recognize anything I've done so far that should strike anyone as particularly noteworthy. Care to enlighten me? Mistake, I didn't catch a few of your recent posts. I had you on my list early on and never took you off. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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Of course we should not operate under the assumption I am town. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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Priority right now is finding a confirmed townie through which they can communicate via PM, hopefully getting to me that way. A DT can check me as well and then confirm to me directly, but like many have said, if I were a mafia player I'd be the #1 pick for godfather. I'm PMing people and posting in the thread on a need to know basis. If anyone wants to know more in-depth what I'm thinking, talk to me in the great PM land. I'm not going to let everyone in on every thought in my head because: a. i don't want mafia to know b. don't want to spam the thread i'm feeling much better about pandain/aeres/southrawrea then I was when I posted that, to be clear. I'm obviously a prime candidate for a DT check, I feel DTA is suspicious as well as coagulation. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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In order to give my case on certain people I have to reveal a lot of PM's and I feel I need to apply more pressure first. One of the last things you should do as town is respond to every point, post every thought you have, etc. It's not a defense at all. Of course the DT's should read the thread and make their own decision but DTA had a lot of suspicion thrown on him and has made it worse for himself in PM land. Please don't expand the fact that I didn't analyse all 6 players into "alot of nothingness in all of my posts", that's trying on purpose to make me look bad. Have you ever considered that in certain cases revealing my reasoning could be counter productive? You don't know for what reason I may withhold information from mafia ears, so don't assume it's for no reason. If my lips are sealed, there is a reason why. So far you've contributed nothing other than attacks on me you didn't even contribute a vote | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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ideally, i would want a mafia player to believe I trust them so they are more willing to talk to me/fuck up in PMs to me. if they think I know they're mafia then they aren't going to do that. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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DoctorHelvetica
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Coagulation comes second under my radar for his aggressive posting and he made a couple of soft defenses of DTA in PM's to me. I originally didn't like how SouthRawrea was responding to PM's I sent him but I'm more inclined now to believe he is town. I don't have my mind totally made up about Pandain but because I am in such close correspondence with him I think a DT check on him might be a waste because if he slips up I'll have no problems noticing it. When a DT gets to me through a confirmed townie, then we'll start confirming more blues: starting with my pocket medic. But for now I want to focus on maybe getting a scum tonight? We got BrownBear day 1 so we might as well take the momentum that's in our favor. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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DoctorHelvetica
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On November 29 2010 03:36 annul wrote: i think he should random a green and give him the DT =\ I support this notion! | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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DoctorHelvetica
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He's the type of mafia player that gets carried, but carried very well. His posts are always well thought out and meticulous (i know having been on a scumteam before with him) So I have to reevaluate some stuff. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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DoctorHelvetica
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If he's trying to fool Amber, this also confirms Amber to me. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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You're backed into a corner and tbh in my mind it's a stalemate between you being mafia or node/youngminii/dta being mafia. You're suspicious based on objective principles but DTA/Youngminii/Node have all ACTED very scummy to me. But the inconsistency lies with Ghrur. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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DoctorHelvetica
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Youngminii needs to start posting and contributing. He has been ignoring me intentionally in PMs and I don't buy his reasoning. You got there by being stubborn and not listening, not because you analysed things You're a smart player even if you're hotheaded and you need to do something of value. Let me put it this way: if you skirt by without really contributing and avoiding talking in PM land as well, my votes going to be on you pretty quick. You must be thinking something in that head of yours. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From youngminii: and look where that got me last game ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: you can't seriously have no thoughts at all not a player like you it's not your inactivity that makes me uncomfortable, it's that you have nothing to say at all. there's been too much discussion for you to have zero analysis you always seem so sure about your convictions ----------------------------------------- Original Message From youngminii: honestly, i don't know everyone seems to have differing opinions/targets and i don't wanna jump in to the fray and accuse someone too quickly like last time (<3) dislike pm land, that's for sure ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: tell me a bit about your thoughts going into the game now? quite a bit to talk about I think ----------------------------------------- Original Message From youngminii: <3 ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: u were such a jerk 2 me in the last game you called my defense bad but i didn't think it was bad T_T if you accuse me wrongly in this game will you listen to me first? dta is already trying to start a bullshit bandwagon and his explanation in pms to me was really shoddy anyway i hope we can be friends this game because if you piss me off i'll make sure quickstriker is on ur team in every game I mod so if you have a big beef, let's talk about it one on one before we shit up the thread because we all know how much I like to post/spam when I feel threatened (on both sides of the alignment coin) at least a little bit. It's been quite a while since that last PM I sent him and I've gotten no reply. Glasse has also contributed basically nothing, spammed this thread, and spent the entirety of this day completely inactive and no one has called him out in it yet? What's up with that. I sent him a PM a while ago telling him to stop spamming and start contributing r u gonna stop spamming and start being helpful not saying you're red, just saying i don't like it. i know you have some good thoughts on the game, you should share them constructively. id be interested to know what you thought of the following players: radfield pandain kenpachi youngminii He never replied and I sent this roughly 24 hours ago. These people (off the top of my head) are also hardly contributing: hardly contributing: kthez esbenpm kthez protactinium annul Now in a moment like this, if kenpachi is indeed mafia, mafia needs to play it safe and lay low until an opportunity for an alternative bandwagon presents itself. If my gut feeling is correct, Kenpachi is a bogus wagon, but logically it makes a lot of sense and the amount of information received from Kenpachi's death will be useful. It will be very telling of the alignment of several key players I've been PMing on a regular basis and it will help me narrow down the list of who I need to hunt as scum. That's why I want you to roleclaim to me Kenpachi. If you're a DT or a medic, something valuable like that, you need to tell me this. You said if you tell me your special role you'll die, but if I already know a medic, and 2 other blue roles, why haven't they died as well? I think the mafia choices for hits make it pretty clear they have not been active in fishing, finding blues, or been doing anything of significance in PM's. In fact the choices they made have made me inclined to believe Pandain is probably innocent as well. I have some PMs from other players I need to re-examine that I haven't gotten to yet. Again, it is very important if ghrur pm'd you anything that you reveal it. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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DoctorHelvetica
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1. Look at the mafia hit choices, all players who aren't active in my circle, mostly green roles except deconduo 2. Considering the amount of blue roles that have already claimed to me, the failure at blue sniping showed we have what is likely a very inexperienced mafia 3. Much like in Insane Mafia I've given a lot of myself out to the town and to others in PMs and I've played very recklessly. High risk, high reward, mafia can't take that chance. Trust me or don't. I'm asking for these things, not demanding them. I am demanding Kenpachi roleclaim though, he really has no other way out. He should do it to me or SouthRawrea if he does. Here is my PMs with Ghrur: KK thanks. ^_^ That was a lot more concise and to the point than my old pms with Bill Murray, lol. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: pressure the shit out of people, see how they react mafia will feel pressured to respond to any PM they get, they're far more likely to crack/slip-up because they feel like it's easier to fool one person than the entire town always have a backup PM line that u trust in case you die because of something you said in PM's so that all of your analysis isn't lost when you die ----------------------------------------- Original Message From ghrur: Kk, fishing aside, would you mind posting (or just telling me :D) how to effectively use the PM system? ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: skeletons actually ----------------------------------------- Original Message From ghrur: Vampires? I thought we were zombies. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: who else is on our team ??? what do you mean why would you lynch me if we are both vampires ----------------------------------------- Original Message From ghrur: Thanks for the Day one lynch. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: my role pm didnt tell me who else was mafia but i know u r so can you tell me? I forgot I even got them since they were so early in the game (and my inbox is so full). but there isn't really anything to analyse there, he was just asking for advice. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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On November 30 2010 05:57 Coagulation wrote: Guys i think we should look at lynching glasse as a possibility usually he is an over 9000 pro town contributer who leads town with lethal scum hunting precision and fierce determination. im just not seeing it this game. if by lethal scum hinting precision you mean meowing, accusing me badly of being mafia when I'm not, spamming threads, and constantly lying then yeah ur right are you serious? his play in insane mafia was embarrassing as town. his only good game was haunted and even then he could have taken it a lot further, I was just impressed because he was new. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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Just so the town knows I sent three PM's to glasse early none of which he responded to. u seem to be fake claiming vet which is a decisively town move that has led me to believe you are the vig or the DT if you are the dt you should check 1 of 2: coagulation aeres both would be a strong check also protactinium is a good choice, he sent me a very strange PM but u know I'm probably just being over analytical nothing u do makes sense to me anyway. keep crazying it up, especially in PMs. start pming people weird shit, gibberish, asking them questions like "do your parents know ur mafia" and stuff like that mafia will get really defensive, not respond, or try to change the subject to someone else like immediately so just keep a check on how everybody responds townie has nothing to be afraid of, naw mean? r u gonna stop spamming and start being helpful not saying you're red, just saying i don't like it. i know you have some good thoughts on the game, you should share them constructively. id be intersting to know what you thought of the following players: radfield pandain kenpachi youngminii the only time you did post was spam and that was too long ago you don't have to trust me or follow my advice, but that doesn't mean talking should be out of the question. i have to put an FoS on this. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From Glasse: how can someone be inactive and spammy at the same time? i'm trying a different way to play, i ignored your pm because i am following my own advice and not trusting anyone ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: need to stop being so inactive and spammy you ignored my last pm, what is your deal dude? Here is where it gets weird. AT THE START OF THE GAME HE FISHES FOR MY ROLE. redacted for my safety i'm not a fantastic scumhunter, I'm not ballsy enough for it ----------------------------------------- Original Message From Glasse: so, since pms are allowed... are you red? i won't tell i swear! this is a PRIVATE message :3 Here's the answer a scum is hoping for. "No, I'm the DT actually" "No, I got medic. I'm confused on this game" stuff like that. So you're going to fish at me at PM's then refuse to respond to all of mine because "you don't trust me"? I'm strongly inclined to switch my vote over to you for this scummy behavior. | ||
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On November 27 2010 08:21 Glasse wrote: OH MY GOD stop the pm spam, this meant green, not crazy thing with multiple hits i'm useless so i'm a meat shield Early green claim. On November 28 2010 06:53 Glasse wrote: wow pming drh is a bad thing i guess he just posts everything rofl Don't PM! Don't trust DrH! Even though I fished on him! On November 28 2010 11:07 Glasse wrote: i remember reading someone said town circles would be much safer, don't forget there is also a godfather Always be careful of who you talk to and what you tell them. Don't talk to people in pms. On November 29 2010 03:32 Glasse wrote: i just caught up on reading and now i am kinda sad... why do people do this..? anyway, with pms its really easy to get caught in a trap by reds, be careful who you talk to and what you tell them :3 Don't talk to people in pms. See a common theme? | ||
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You're refusing to contribute in the thread, you're refusing to contribute in PMs. You said you're green, so how exactly are you planning to make yourself useful? By confusing everybody as usual? | ||
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Makes me think mafia are trying to stay quiet to avoid giving us more information while we get one of their own lynched. If kenpachi turns up red, we need to take a serious serious look at the inactive players in this game. I've sent out some PMs. I'd encourage the rest of the town to do this: -choose a random inactive and pressure them in PMs. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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If you flip green or blue then DTA and Node will be my highest targets, but for now, operating under the assumption that you're mafia, go for inactives. If Kenpachi is mafia, he's going to be bussed. Look also at people who joined the bandwagon or made really really soft attacks on him. | ||
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then claims a very clear blue role to me after constantly saying bullshit to me about how he is a "special townie" makes it pretty clear to me he is mafia or chaos ensuant | ||
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On November 30 2010 16:55 Coagulation wrote: OK JUST A WARNING. anyone voting like this chaoser if we have a day left and can make a better lynch and your holding back untill you find it.. why the fuck are you not scumhunting in thread??? just a completely empty reason to avoid a bandwagon on kenpachi. he is gonna be prime suspect if / when kenpachi flips red. He's scumhunting in PM's. Chaoser is one of the people I least suspect as of now. | ||
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I can't announce who needs to be protected in public, as it'll be too transparent for the mafia to figure out who is who. I know I'm asking for a lot of roleclaims, but that is what is going to win us this game. I'm thinking that a mass roleclaim might not even be such a bad idea. Mafia are the only players in this game that need to lie and considering how many blues have confirmed to me already, it could be a huge trap. I'm not going to ask for that yet. But if you're the second medic and you feel cool claiming to me, do it. If not, don't. I just want to make sure I live along with another important townie. | ||
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On December 01 2010 00:18 kitaman27 wrote: Sigh I must sound like a broken record. Have we all given up and assumed DrH knowing most of the roles is our only hope on day 2? Even if you turn out town, I think everyone should be more cautious. Why is he our go-to man, rather than Southrawrea, who has been "confrimed" by a detective? Is the rest of the town so passive that we have rely on him winning it for everyone and hope it doesn't backfire? You plant the seed for a mass roleclaim, which would essentially be an all-in move. -_- It could be to SR if you'd like. But let me put it this way: -if the second medic claims to me, 2 mafia die. | ||
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On December 01 2010 01:17 DoctorHelvetica wrote: It could be to SR if you'd like. But let me put it this way: -if the second medic claims to me, 2 mafia die. This goes for the role of mad hatter as well. | ||
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On December 01 2010 02:34 Glasse wrote: I didn't think i'd have any time to post today but here i am, Why would 2 mafia die? Care to explain who and why? If I could have announced that in public, I would have. | ||
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On December 01 2010 00:18 kitaman27 wrote: Sigh I must sound like a broken record. Have we all given up and assumed DrH knowing most of the roles is our only hope on day 2? Even if you turn out town, I think everyone should be more cautious. Why is he our go-to man, rather than Southrawrea, who has been "confrimed" by a detective? Is the rest of the town so passive that we have rely on him winning it for everyone and hope it doesn't backfire? You plant the seed for a mass roleclaim, which would essentially be an all-in move. -_- Considering 12/30 players have roleclaimed to me privately a mass roleclaim could work later in the game if the cards are correctly played. If it seems appropriate at the time I'll bring up the possibility but for now it's out of the question. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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I'd like to know: your thoughts on the kenpachi bandwagon as I'm very torn your top 3 suspects of scum if you are the real second medic any scummy PM's others sent you also my current plan: Pick the person below you. Or above you if they are dead. Analyse their posts. You can find all of a persons posts in their profile and it'll sort it by thread. Read all of their posts and try to get a rough idea of their GOALS. Logical errors, mind changing, things like that are often scummy but townies are more likely to make that sort of mistake IMO. Remember, look at it from a town perspective versus mafia. Ask yourself "what is a player trying to accomplish with this post or with this PM. What does he gain and who does it benefit most?" | ||
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wut i may have said i want the dt to check kenpachi tonight. please quote me on it tho. i made many mistakes in some pms to kthez because i fuck up when im on my phone which im on right now. im going to switch to annul. the dta bandwagon wich is the lynch i really want seems to be small and i am now sure kenpachi is legit. | ||
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On December 01 2010 09:30 kitaman27 wrote: Well I don't really see how it could be a mistake, but here you go: Also you say his role claim obviously fake. What makes you change your mind? Its not like this information is new to you or anything. rereading his later PM's and the fact that no one counter claimed makes me inclined to believe him. I feel he might be a strong choice for Night 2 investigation although I doubt it. Anyway Protact is a weak choice. His "day 1 fishing" was clearly designed to be pro-town (you're bad at this game if you can't see that) and he explained his inactivity to me: I'm sorry, I've been very inactive indeed. I have a test tomorrow and I've been studying all day for it. From the looks of it, I find it pretty crazy for ghrur to switch votes at the last minute. That seems like the last thing a mafia member would want to do. If kenpachi is mafia then I would guess that the mafia would lynch him to gain support of town because offering another lynch candidate right now would seem obscure. As far as my trust in you, I like the fact that you posted my pm in the thread. That shows a pro-town attitude. The medic claim seems weird to me and I wouldn't be surprised if you were mafia and made up the medic claim. Just so you know, I should be more active after 3:30 est time tomorrow -- by then my test will be over. If this game lasts til next week, I would like to give you a heads up that I will be taking finals. I was kind of hoping that the games would go by faster than it has been. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: Not comfortable with your inactivity. You seem to be a smart enough player with the trap you set in PMs earlier. Tell me what you're thinking, or whatever you feel comfortable sharing. I'm feeling him as pro-town, but he's most likely just a townie if he is. | ||
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On December 01 2010 09:30 kitaman27 wrote: Well I don't really see how it could be a mistake, but here you go: Also you say his role claim obviously fake. What makes you change your mind? Its not like this information is new to you or anything. also wow could that be any clearer a joke | ||
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If not I'm starting the bandwagon loud and proud tomorrow. | ||
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ace did the same thing in dont lose yo villlage and it made me think "he's probably laughing because both me and ym are townies" you all shouldn't do that imo | ||
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the reason I'm switching my vote is because that hasn't happened. if you're the medic and you still think i'm mafia fishing for roles, slap yourself please | ||
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Glasse fished for my role, I gave him a joke response, and he says that means his pm is a joke. irrelevant to kenpachi don't vote protactinium, it's glaringly obvious his pms were pro-town and DTA has been scummy as fuck. of course he's going to save himself, he told me ahead of time he was going to be busy. so he's scum because he didn't vote to kill himself? jesus christ. | ||
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On December 01 2010 09:57 Coagulation wrote: kitaman dont we need to vote together as town bro NOT IF YOU'RE NOT TOWN LIKE KITAMAN27 | ||
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On December 01 2010 10:00 Protactinium wrote: Atleast we saved kenpachi, right? To be fair you need to contribute a lot more now. | ||
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On December 01 2010 10:00 LSB wrote: + Show Spoiler + It's better when the mods do it! It causes the thread to go to an 'utter panic' mode do you want to replace pandain in my insane mini game? | ||
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protact is just inactive thats the rundown. | ||
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On December 01 2010 10:04 kitaman27 wrote: Confusing him into giving out information about his role. Well I don't have access to pm's so if he posted in the thread, maybe I could see it is glaringly obvious as well. No it was based upon the fact that for someone who was inactive, he sure was able to show up at the right time. I changed due to the sheer amount of people pming me, which would be a poor mafia move. NO Glasse asks me "are you green or red" I respond "I'm pink" how the fuck can you possibly turn that around and say I'm fishing on him. That's absolutely absurd. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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I said glasse seemed scummy because he talked shit on pming and told everyone basically not to RC to me, then fished for my role on day 1. Then he says "its a joke", what a weak defense I wasn't fishing for Kenpachi's reaction. Mafia will just say "bullshit you can't dt check day 1 you must be scum" (which is what ghrur did when I told him i was mafia in day 1 he said : thanks for the day 1 lynch) or "yeah I have to be the miller". I wasn't looking for the blueclaim, I was looking for that and I didn't get what I wanted. | ||
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are you trying to confuse people or are you very confused yourself? | ||
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it was very clearly a joke, i'm really hoping he did not believe me especially because 10 minutes later i jokingly told him i was the busdriver did not think he would believe that either | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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why did you even quote the glasse pm in the first place? i am confused about what you are trying to say. My PMs with kenpachi: i tell him im dt (joke, just trying to test reaction) then busdriver (even more obvious joke) he tells me nothing of value starts saying he is "special townie" later claims medic making me unsure my PMs with glasse: day 1 he asks me if i am red or green i respond pink i pm him 3 times he doesnt respond 4th time he responds saying he doesn't want to talk to me because he doesn't trust me in the thread i called him out on this and he said "oh w/e my first pm was just a joke" and then made more excuses for inactivity although he's being less avoidant in pms, he's actually responding to them | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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He first didn't even want to private claim to me, then public claims out of desperation. I don't have to waste a DT check if a medic simply counterclaims to me or SouthRawrea (the player confirmed town aligned by a DT). That's it. It's very very very very simple. However there are many inactive players in this game and one of them vould be the medic. If you are the medic and not Kenpachi shoot me a PM. Then I will let the town know. If not I'll try to convince the DT to check Kenpachi who is an unlikely godfather candidate. Now if Kenpachi and DTA are both town, then some serious reassessment of everything must be done. | ||
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On December 01 2010 10:17 chaoser wrote: good job town...now we have no new info -_- lynching for info is a retarded policy that only mafia ever attempt to implement. in fact i feel it's one of the strongest scumtells since I do it almost every time I'm mafia (until BC told me it makes me too obvious hehe) and that's not true. a lot of people have been discussing DTA and people who defended him seriously are going to get a serious reevaluation from me. | ||
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On December 01 2010 10:20 chaoser wrote: or we could have lynched his ass and found out by now... and risk killing medic over townie no and what if kp is medic and dta is townie? it's worth killing a medic to know if he is the medic? nope.avi.jpg.exe | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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The lack of a counterclaim still leads me to believe you are town. Aside from DTA, the bandwagon on Kenpachi (out of memory so correct me if I'm wrong) was started by Node and annul, yes? | ||
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On December 01 2010 10:25 kitaman27 wrote: The "he tells me nothing of value" apparently was enough to convince you his medic claim was fake. Irrelevant at this point tho. ^^ The glasse quote was where he also called his fish a joke and someone gave him a hard time for it. Maybe I misread it. Either way, it doesn't add anything to the current situation. what the fuck are you talking about why don't you just read every single pm me and kenpachi sent to eachother, he posted them all anyway. you have no sense of order. he told me nothing of value in the first hour of the game when we talked. obviously his later claims and the banter between him and pandain was of value to me and my analysis | ||
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On December 01 2010 10:25 chaoser wrote: just a little miffed by the fact that I came home to read an urgent PM to unvote kenpachi with no preparation about 3 minutes before voting ended well if the real second medic is out there, he claims to me and it's GG for kenpachi mafia can't fake that because then he's sacrificing himself and 1 blue for 1 mafia is a trade that benefits town | ||
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On December 01 2010 10:28 Kenpachi wrote: Hey what if that medic isnt a medic and just claimed to kill me? I hope so! | ||
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On December 01 2010 10:35 Eiii wrote: DT checking ken is the best idea I guess-- if he turns out to just be a townie then we can pretty safely ignore him for the rest of the game-- he's either chaos or willing to fuck up town to save his own ass. If he's medic, he's an asset all of a sudden, and if he's mafia that's a free kill. I'm more for demanding the real medic to counterclaim to me or southrawrea so we don't waste a dt check. we'll wait until the absolute last second to decide, if no one counterclaims then it's kenpachi. 13/30 players have roleclaimed to me already, it's not like you'd be putting yourself in specific danger. | ||
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On December 01 2010 10:39 SouthRawrea wrote: What on earth happened while I was gone.. Seriously What!?? pandain happened | ||
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town is actually in a position of advantage why would anyone be pessimistic I have a metric fuckton of PM information to be released if/when I die, we got CE and 1 mafia on the first day we have a ton of shit to analyse and DT checks are only going to get stronger | ||
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town should never be able to block every mafia hit in theory i'm actually more inclined to believe the other medic is the mafia faker now atm, because I discovered a small inconsistency. He said "I didn't get a PM so you survived" but wouldn't the real medic know you don't get notified? I need a legit counterclaim immediately if the real medic is out there. If not I'm just going to assume these 2 medics are real. | ||
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For instance, I don't trust the mad hatter who claimed to me. | ||
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If the real medic is out there but still won't claim to me for some BS reason: protect youngminii that's all I can say safely | ||
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On December 01 2010 11:32 Eiii wrote: I might be behind on this or just clueless in general, but I'm more concerned with how DrH can be trusted. I know setting up a circle and doing what he does isn't scummy at all, but if he's the elder (and if he's mafia, he's the elder for sure) then he's put himself in a fantastic position to really fuck town up. I might as well go ahead and tell everyone I'm a green townie. I'm overcompensating for my lack of power role. Anywho watch the mafia fail at bluesniping again. When I have 14/30 people roleclaimed to me this game should be over already. The fact that town is in such a position as it is speaks volumes for how bad an dinexperienced the mafia is. Which is why I want to look at inactives/newbs. It's also part of the reason I think "ok maybe radfield, amber, etc. aren't mafia" because I consider them too good for the abysmal day 1 hits. I'm not sold on Radfield though. I've yet to really comb through his walls of text, but I'll get to it tonight. This night is going to be the tipping point for overwhelming town victory if town plays their cards right. | ||
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i've been sharing literally everything with southrawrea and the dt. there is no information i have that they don't. | ||
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replacements better be active. inactivity, if anything, will screw this town. also would anyone be opposed to me telling you all WHO roleclaimed ot me but not what role they gave me? | ||
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On December 01 2010 12:04 jcarlsoniv wrote: If this can be confirmed by South, that would be lovely. So at least you are being kept in check by them. How do you feel about a mass claim Doc? I'm for it. I'm town aligned, it'll do no harm to tell me what you are. I already know who so many people are that the smallest slip-up would be the end for any faking mafia. This means every mafia will probably fake vet or townie, but even that is poisonous for them. The problem is it has to be to me or SouthRawrea and putting all your eggs in one basket is a very risky play. If someone else who wasn't me was in this position I'd be reluctant unless I was as convinced they were town as I am for, say, Amber[Light] | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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Annul Jcarls Southrawrea Kenpachi youngminii aidnai (pre-death) Pandain Chaoser Protactinium Glasse (claimed publicly) KtheZ (claimed publicly) Aeres I incorrectly included a few dead people in my count. 12 roleclaims. I might be missing someone. Be conscious of the fact that I came home to about 18 PMs. I'm on information overload and I fear shit is slipping through the cracks. I'm bound to make small number/logical slip-ups and I'm sure mafia will try to make me look bad for it. You try reading 15 pms at work on your phone and getting everything perfect. I will say this. The town circle is working on sorting out my information and splitting the workload so that nothing gets by without being looked at. | ||
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What mafia do: Analyse a bunch of different players. Each mafia will post a scummy analysis and FoS a different player to split up the bandwagon, that way the mafia can use their vote power to have more influence. If a town starts a bad bandwagon, they'll climb onto that as well. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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I do not want the DT to waste a check on kenpachi but it seems the mafia attempts to defend him started really early. If kenpachi was town, the bandwagon on him would have been so easy then why not? Maybe because BrownBear is the more experienced player and thus more of a thread if he is town? Because they want to fake suspicion on Kenpachi? I really doubt there is only 1 doctor in this game. Kenpachi's role will reveal the most information and will help me know for certain if some people are mafia. If Kenpachi is red, I feel I can dump about 3 scum tomorrow. If you are the medic claim to me. Not doing so is hurting the town. I feel so gross about this. Ghrur was defending Kenpachi pretty hard on day 1. So when he died, DTA and others wanted to lynch Kenpachi. DTA flipped green. But until there is a counter claim I must assume Kenpachi is blue, since there would clearly be two medics in this game. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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I know I'm on the right trail and I'm fucking it up by overthinking it mafia defend townies all the time, especially early in the game for the purpose of confusion i am bad at this game, i apologize | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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if kenpachi or the other medic is faking, the real medic knows it and needs to counterclaim to me so we don't waste a dt is mass roleclaim viable? yes/no, everyone chip in. I have more than half the towns roles at this point. if I were mafia you guys are screwed anyway, it's just a matter of how hard you'll get raped. however the potential gains are enormous as it will help me significantly in scumhunting. start reading peoples entire post history, now is the time to build a good case if you have one. if the medic won't claim to me - protect youngminii look at inactive players/players who pretend to contribute but actually don't. | ||
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On December 01 2010 20:28 CubEdIn wrote: Ok so I managed to skim through this. I think Kenpachi is suspicious. If nobody DTs him he can easily fake the medic role all the way to the end. And even if he does get DTed, he could be the Elder Witch. I really don't like this, it's exactly how Pandain got rescued, but better, because Kenpachi can just claim he defended x, y, z, and mafia just not attacking those players. Definitely a bad thing. Also, Dr.H has been playing differently then what I saw so far. At least to a certain extent. I don't know if that's a good thing or not but we'll see anyway. So yeah, no other real suspects other than that. I don't gotta vote or anything right? Wrong. if the second medic simply counter claims he's fucking finished especially considering how hard ghrur defended him on the first day that hasn't happened so I think kenpachi is for real | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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On December 02 2010 00:39 chaoser wrote: I feel like it's decently easy to fake conversations if the plan at the start of the game for mafia was to use the PM system to manufacture fake PMs. Throughout the game, even at the start, write PMs to each other with fake info and then post them when needed. I don't think that makes you confirmed 100% but at least it makes you less suspicious. That's ridiculous unless the mafia planned specifically on bussing ghrur to make Amber look innocent. Ghrurs death was a clear accident. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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I've never seen a fake pm conversation ever playing mafia on TL. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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On December 02 2010 06:49 flamewheel wrote: Hmm I doctored some PMs in XXVIII. I doubt anybody read any of them though. They still served their purpose! A game I've never read so :x Doctoring PMs works great if the person is dead and you're good enough to fake their writing style. But it could fall apart very easily. Did you do it later in the game? Regardless I don't think anyone (and this is a learning game) can pretend that a PM is more likely to be faked than it is to be real. It's a very risky and difficult strategy to pull off and at most PMs will be used deceptively and selectively rather than being conjured up out of thin air. If someone is going to post PMs, I operate under the assumption that they are probably true. Perhaps edited, but not faked completely. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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This is like in Insane Mafia where these ridiculous MAYBE WHAT IF scenarios were constantly being used by mafia to detract town from trusting me, or making progress. Occams Razor: The simplest and most easily explained scenario is often the truest. Or rather, if there are two solutions to a problem and one leaves more questions than it answers, maybe it's not the right one. Isn't it far more likely that Amber is town and Ghrur PM'd him that because he wanted to target/implant ideas in the mind of an experienced town player? Couldn't that be the same reason they targeted BrownBear over Kenpachi because they'd rather lynch a good non-mafia aligned player (they didn't know he was CE, had no way of knowing since his router exploded) than a newer and poorer one like Kenpachi? Yes MAYBE of course it's possible Amber faked it all. Even by the DT, nothing is 100% confirmable until someone dies. This is a prime opportunity created by the mafia to: 1. plant seeds of distrust on a clearly town player 2. railroad conversation somewhere completely useless Let's not do this please. It's a waste of fucking time. Big time. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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I would never have the balls to fake a bunch of PMs and post them publicly as scum. And I doubt I could do it as well as Amber did if he did. And I don't think the possibility of it occurring makes it likely and it hardly makes Amber suspicious. I would feel 100% more than comfortable faking it through PMs though. Posting a fake PM from a living person in a thread is a huge no no, all they have to do is call you out. Doing it through PMs is a lot safer. Doing it from a dead guy (which Ghrur) is has elements of safety but the potential risk is huge. It would be a brilliant play if Ghrur was bused, but his death was an accident. Do the mafia really have the foresight to fake PMs on day 1 between eachother just for a late game bus to clear one person or a "JUST IN CASE" they died? So what's the plan? Amber: hey ghrur I need to look pro-town so send me a fake pm asking me for game advice then send me a fake pm trying to plant accusations on other players (which are maybe secretly mafia WHO KNOWS) to me then when we'll accidentally kill a mad hatter and get you killed so I can post the PMs and town will know I'm town! Ghrur: ok! | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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I'm saying it's unlikely especially given the circumstances. We know Ghrur is mafia and if he and Amber are BOTH mafia those PMs are too weird. They were at the very least obviously written by ghrur, but the intention is unclear because ghrur died by accident and there was no set-up for a ghrur bus on the first day. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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KK thanks. ^_^ That was a lot more concise and to the point than my old pms with Bill Murray, lol. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: pressure the shit out of people, see how they react mafia will feel pressured to respond to any PM they get, they're far more likely to crack/slip-up because they feel like it's easier to fool one person than the entire town always have a backup PM line that u trust in case you die because of something you said in PM's so that all of your analysis isn't lost when you die ----------------------------------------- Original Message From ghrur: Kk, fishing aside, would you mind posting (or just telling me :D) how to effectively use the PM system? ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: skeletons actually ----------------------------------------- Original Message From ghrur: Vampires? I thought we were zombies. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: who else is on our team ??? what do you mean why would you lynch me if we are both vampires ----------------------------------------- Original Message From ghrur: Thanks for the Day one lynch. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: my role pm didnt tell me who else was mafia but i know u r so can you tell me? | ||
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i was under the mindset that we're discussing the game in kind of an outsider fashion so I made that silly mistake. foolishness quoted my original post though so it's all good I hope T_T | ||
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There is a huge difference between faking an entire back and forth PM conversation and simply omitting lines or adding information/changing wording none of the coaches agree with me on this? T_T | ||
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Guess I know what I'm doing in the next game I get red. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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and sure, int his game I've edit PMs to protect the identity of blues but if I were mafia I'd never dream of outright faking the whole thing. If I wanted to make up an entire long PM conversation, it'd have to be with someone like coagulation whose writing style (one liners) is easy to imitate :p I'd worry too much that I couldn't sell it in public I'm actually really geniuinely surprised you all view this as a common and likely scumtactic. Goes to show how bad I am at this game really. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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i hope it's 20 minutes D: | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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I live in pst too | ||
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(to the end of ur post)And yes it is. A day 1 mad hatter bomb is a fair trade. Scara's death was a huge blow to town but a day 1 CE and a night 1 mafia puts the town in GREAT position. Aidnai told me he told you he thought I was GF actually but I can't talk about that too much. But he admitted he was wrong and that he felt silly ;o As far as these ideas and analysis, I don't like to post these things during the night. In fact I think it is the towns best policy to be completely silent during the night, don't give the mafia any chance to change their hits to something better. Unless you are trying to confuse them into doing the wrong thing. 1. no, i just prefer being cautious rather than rushing to play follow the leader. 2. I place no limit on what mafia would be willing to do to accomplish what they want. You're obviously not going to be lynched day 1 anyway. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: 1. so that applies to anyone who says anything? should town not have a leader? it's really the only thing I did right in insane mafia and I plan on doing it as well as I can in this game. 2. i'd imagine the medic will eventually find his way into the town circle and confirm it that way. faking is hard because you have to fake two completely different writing styles and fake kinda long conversations for instance I got this pm recently from the medic should I fake claim veteran to avoid getting hit at night by mafia? if i get hit while im protecting someone we both die right? so i would probably be safer. do you really honestly think it's more likely that I went through the effort to send the same pm to a bunch of people then fake one persons response through several lengthy and reasonable conversations just to make everyone think a medic roleclaimed to me which only brought me under more suspicion as mafia? occams razor should apply here. if this is a mafia plan, it is a very convoluted one and it doesn't seem to make a ton of sense. if i am mafia, what is my goal with this plan? do you really think this is the sort of power play i'd make on day 1? why not claim vet as godfather or something like that which makes a lot more sense? don't lynch a good player like me day 1 unless you are very sure. this case is a joke, it isn't based on my post behavior or any slip-ups i would have made, it's based on a what if scenario and some shoddy mafia goals i might have that you can't even really explain i'd call you out in the thread but I don't want to cause a big OMGUS thing and make a big distraction. I'm seriously considering voting for brownbear at the moment, but I'm iffy about putting my vote on a good player until something more comes up. and as far as "waiting to come out" what does that even mean. i gave very little information, simply that a medic dumbly rc'd to me and that isn't something I wanted to hide from town. I'm looking for a way, with town input, to use that to our advantage. I explained some of my ideas about how even if the medic is mafia town is in pretty good shape if you want to read some of that PM conversation. but u seem to believe it's more likely i just made up all this shit do you really think my goal here is stronger as mafia than it is as town? i'm not even sure what the goal is, the situation was thrust on me and I'm trying to make the best of it. it's not like i planned for the medic to RC to me at all. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DarthThienAn: 1. Day 1 towns love town leaders/people that step up with plans. Half the people agree with the last thing they read. Something easy to exploit. 2. Why is faking PMs hard? No one is going to ask you to out the medic, so no one's going to be able to see if your story checks out or not. 3. It's not that farfetched. A mafia player doing something day 1? 4. Yeah, I do know. And that can go either way for me (mafia or town fishing). And judging by the votes, it doesn't seem like you're in any danger. So convince me why you're not mafia, when you're coming out like this day 1 when you could have waited a bit until you had concrete info/stayed in PMs and coordinated blues from there. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: you think it's more likely that i'm mafia making a play to get me "trusted" because a medic roleclaimed to me? 1. how would that make town trust me more, it's made them distrust me 2. faking pms is the most dangerous and dumb thing you can do 3. you're going to get an experienced player lynched based on a very very far-fetched and bad case 4. u know for a fact i was sending people random pm's and a few other people can confirm i sent them the message "whats up buttercup" 5. i agree that the roleclaim was stupid and ridiculous, i didn't ask for it i can't see what your goal is except to: a. get me lynched b. force the medic to come out and defend me so mafia can kill him let's talk about this via pm so we don't spam up the thread. this situation with the medic was thrust upon me because the medic is an idiot. i'm trying my best to turn this into a win scenario for town. there are already a few placeholder votes on me so lets think this through These PMs made me believe DTA is scum because he accuses me because my claiming of the medic claim seemed to him to be scummier than town but he couldn't and plainly refused to answer the question of how the play even benefits mafia in the first play. I saw it as him dodging my questions when I guess he just didn't even have answers and was simply misguided. This happens. So as far as the rolechecked by a DT thing. THAT WAS MY IDEA. I TOLD PEOPLE CLAIM TO A PERSON ONLY IF THEY ARE CHECKED BY A DT AND COME THROUGH AS CONFIRMED. and guess what happened 4 fucking blue people roleclaimed TO ME without being asked to on day/night 1. Then southrawrea comes out and says "hey btw I'm the townie that the DT confirmed" and everyone ignores him and keeps on roleclaiming to me. After that happens and I have that much information, the town would be screwed if I'm godfather, so continuing on roleclaiming to me I guess is the direction to go since the town didn't listen to me. There were a few people who twisted my words to make it seem like I've always been asking everybody to roleclaim to me when I began this game trying to encourage people not to do what that medic did and to play it safe. But they didn't and I don't think I should be under fire for the poor decisions they made. I'm doing what I can to turn it to the towns advantage. If people feel safer claiming/talking to SouthRawrea then they should do that! So when 2 medics claim to you and from your modding experience you know there is no way jose 3 medics in this game, yeah asking for a counterlclaim is a good idea. Then I have a list of 3 one of whom I know is a lying scum bastard and that's helpful yeah? | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
Also the pressure is on SouthRawrea and/or AmberLight to reveal my large post analysis/pm history in the case that I die. I'm announcing that publicly JIC of the unlikely scenario that one or both are scum, so they have to release it anyway. | ||
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If there is another DT you have to counterclaim to me immediately. this means either the detective or southrawrea is mafia as they are the only people who know about the medics and Amber's involvement in my circle. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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Big poo poo pressure time on: Chaoser Pandain Southrawrea Pandain fake claimed medic to chaoser who then asked me for the names of the real medics. He knows coagulation is the medic. Pandain knows too. SouthRawrea knows everything I know. Vet is the safest GF role. If I lost this game for town I'm truly sorry. I'll probably stop playing mafia forever. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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I did tell pandain annul found out by accident | ||
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so I'm dead tonight. i need to do as much possible today to out as many scum as possible. don't let the scum call you off on my analysis. My ideas are solid and I still have a good idea on many posters who are probably scum. From the hit choices: Pandain knew Coagulation was the medic. My PMs with pandain: http://www.mediafire.com/?mt2bit41xhb1pzm I let slip to annul that coagulation was the medic when talking about my experimental mafia game. That was a mistake and he could very well have reported that back. So immense pressure needs to be placed on both of these players. Now I will make my case on Aeres and JimboSilvers. If any one in the inner town circle (me, 1 dt, 1 vet, 1 other blue role) is godfather the game has already been lost. All we can do now is trust eachother (in that circle) and do what we can to make sure we never waste another lynch. You must decide who you trust, me or SR who was touched by the DT and confirmed. We need a vig to work with. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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I might be reading too much into this but the town needs to know that there were others who knew for sure he was the medic. I actually think you're the godfather and I have a post on that coming up. I look forward to reading the same shit mafia have been posting about annul this whole game. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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I've talked to Pandain. I'm panicing and I need to act cool. Pandain knew coagulations identity as the medic early on. I forgot I lied and told him I told the medics to protect eachother. That way if he were mafia he would hit me and youngminii who were actually safe. I still think Radfield is the godfather and the fact that he is able to put it well into perspective despite being told any info in pms makes me feel more confident. I'll proceed through Day 3 as normal. Outing JimboSilvers, Aeres, Radfield, and the likes. I'm unsure about Glasse still. I'm also very suspicious of KtheZ. I'd love to post analysis on every single player but we need to go one at a time or we'll just get distracted. My theoretical scumteam: Radfield (gf) Jimbosilvers Aeres Inactive (either eiii or kavdragon) KtheZ Ghrur (confirmed) | ||
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On December 02 2010 10:29 JimboSilvers wrote: Everyone stop claiming to DH immediately. Although its probably to late at this point. I think we've been led by the leash all game now. I got these two PMs from him: Someone's got some explaining to do. From the tone it sounds like hes fishing, but I think he might actually be CE. If anyone else got this PM post now. If I'm the only one who got this then DH is probably CE. But if I'm wrong then we're pretty much doomed. The other possibility is that he's just fishing. Evidence to support this would be that he doesn't blurt out the blue roles immediately. But if nobody else can reproduce a PM like this I find it very likely that DH is really CE. Yeah it was bullshit. I am so sure that you are mafia I was hoping you'd take the bait and let me in on your scum buddies. I sent the same sort of PM to protactinium. I told everyone in the inner town circle I was going to do this before I did it. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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I figure by your UBER late response (I sent that last night) that you needed time to show it to your mafia friends and decide I'm most likely bluffing and you should twist it to try and get me lynched. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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remember when in insane mafia when you just said "drh is mafia" over and over again and never explained it and were wrong? and you wonder why people say you contribute nothing... analysis of jimbosilvers + Show Spoiler + JimboSilvers "Hey guys, sorry it seems I'm late to the party DrH, is there anymore to that PM chain? Did your mysterious person ever respond? Still though I dno't really feel like that's that safe to trust, especially since I'm confused as to how you could have a confirmed person so easily? It would really come down to all that you 'feel' about that person. Your reasoning kind of seems like you're WiFOMing yourself too..." Discrediting PM circles/post analysis reasoning kinda early on. Townies will make posts like this as well, but it's important to note the goal of this post. "Well I'm not saying that all analysis should be thought of as WiFOM. But right now with absolutely limited information it seems weird. Though I kind of do kind of agree it's risky for Mafia to try such things, so it does make your story more valid. Even so I think it's not a good idea for people to roleclaim (in general) yet since we have nothing to go off of :/ I agree with kitaman when he says we should be focusing on the lynch, since we have a day left now and not much to work off of. Te problem here is that there are many people who haven't posted yet, so one of them should be the target. For instance annul knows the game has started (he posted some spam post a few pages back?) but hasn't posted anything since. And off the top of my head looking at the player list I think these people haven't really posted: Annul and Scaramanga both have posted Harry Potter-related stuff while not actually saying anything else? Kenpachi just has one line and Amber doesn't really have any game-relevant posts either. Neither does youngminii. Rocco, Georgeclooney, Pandain, node haven't posted at all. I think I'm just gonna randomly pick a person to vote in a bit maybe... It's a lot harder to keep track of people online than it is in real life There are more of course and I'm guilty of not posting much myself But I've got some time since it's the weekend now and can post more, so let's get the show on the road " Hey look, a big fucking post saing nothing at all. This is what people do, they come in say "hey everybody contribute, focus on the lynch, roleclaiming is bad, obvious point, obvious point, obvious point. This isn't a game relevant post. He puts a minor attack on annul. mafia want to distance themselves from other mafia. I know for certain that one of annul's favorite scum strategies is faking disagreements and orchestrating fake accusations and disagreements among scum. I'm not convinced by this attack or future attacks. On November 28 2010 06:08 JimboSilvers wrote: I'm going to go vote for BrownBear, seeing as how he steps in, accuses somebody of inactivity, and then promptly absconds again. Hopefully I'll be back before deadline to see if he is posting, as to perhaps remove this inactivity vote. Inconclusive. BB was the bandwagon the mafia chose however. "Hmm looking back, I think Amber summarizes the game quite well in this post. We've been discussing the DH issue for pages now, and haven't gotten anywhere. I don't think we'll reach any conclusion about this without some fresh information, so we might as well ignore it for now and see what happens later. As Amber says, people have been laying a lot of traps, all behind the scenes I suppose. And from what I've seen from DoctorHelvetica, these attempts are pretty bad. Unless the mafia are active behind the scenes, I don't think they're really posting in the thread as we're already not getting anywhere. The thing is, mafia are going to be active in PMs in a different way than town. They want to fish, and are not interested in analysis. I propose that we implement a policy to publicly announce people who are talking blue roles in PMs, and agree to only use PMs for analyzing/discussing who is suspicious. Other than that, talk about blue roles should be avoided. That way, it'll be easy to catch mafia trying to get blue information. I really don't like the way DH is handling PMs right now. The fishing is getting us nowhere and is just confusing us. Its bad that people are lying in PMs, even if its purposeful and joking. This is getting us way off topic. " "I don't think mafia are really posting in the thread" assuming he is scum he is trying to really press the idea of an inactive mafia to make people focus on inactives. Focusing on inactives is bad because the mafia will choose which inactives get focused down. You can't choose someones analysis of your posting. "Talk about blue roles should be avoided" Hoo boy, I don't like the way he's phrasing this. "Publicly announce people who are talking blue roles", is a great way for mafia to push bandwagons onto innocent townies who are fishing for people to protect/investigate or simply trying to lead town like I am. There isn't a lot positive about this post but there is a lot of negative. I haven't played with you before, but it seems as if you did not "heavily defend attacks against" yourself in this game after Pandain posted one. Instead, you waited until Kenpachi brought it up again in order to defend? This sudden outburst makes me suspicious considering how it is contradictory. This attack isn't very strong but I find it strange that JimboSilvers focuses so hard on annul in the thread yet never brings annul up when we're talking about mafia suspects in PM. He never mentioned annul once in PM and kept the focus on players like youngminii (who would be a clear blue suspect from his low-key play) It doesn't make me think annul is scum. It makes me think jimbosilvers isn't actually committed to the idea that annul is scum. If JS was a townie interested in scumhunting and getting annul lynched, he would DEFINITELY mention it in our PMs which I will publish in a .txt file "Hmm I was thinking Kenpachi was innocent at that point, but this makes me wonder again...I'll go through the vote list again to see what I can find." Indecisiveness is normal for a townie and for a mafia. Inconclusive. mafia have a vested interest in qualification though. Jimboslivers – BB DrH -- BB KtheZ--KP Kenpachi -- BB Pandain -- BB Node -- KP EsbenPM -- BB Youngmini -- KP Southrawrea -- BB Deconduo -- KP(test) Darth -- KP(test) It is now 8 for KP, 7 for BB Aeres -- switch from KP to BB ghrur – BB Ghrur flipping mafia definitely makes me think mafia were intervening here. If you look closely at the vote list, Ghrur already has a vote down for Pandain early in the game. He’s not under pressure for modkills. Yet he changes votes at the last minute. Why would he need to do this if he was mafia? I don’t think there’s no reason to do this if Kenpachi is town, because this puts more pressure on him for being the deciding and final vote for BrownBear. I don’t feel like Ghrur’s behavior fits if Kenpachi is town. Way too risky and for no reward. Furthermore, if mafia were involved, youngminii and node are all on the right side of things. But… On November 29 2010 11:10 Amber[LighT] wrote: This I received from Ghrur... I don't know if he was trying to keep me away from others, but he did provide a "list" he was suspicious of: Show nested quote + Hey, nights about to end, and we're about to get some new information, but before that happens, can I ask you what you think about Town's reasoning on who's mafia? I understand that I draw suspicion because I basically cemented Brownbear's lynch, and if we look at him as a townie, it's like, yeah durrr people who voted BB. But the thing is, I don't think that's actually a totally fair assumption to make. I mean, did you see Protact's way of "fishing?" I think it's the scum's way of getting in touch with the chaos ensuant. Then, guess what, Protact just happened to vote FOR Kenpachi to maybe help save Brownbear? Anyway, I think it makes sense that mafia DID get in contact with BB, and in that case, we shouldn't be focusing on who voted BB, but who voted Kenpachi. This includes: Barunder Protactinium Node KtheZ Youngminii I'd say Node and Youngminii are fairly quiet, which both makes me think they could be lurking mafia. However, I'd like to get your opinion on this because while it makes sense, the rest of the town seemed to have just glossed over it. =/ Thanks for not killing me though, Ghrur. ^____^ First off, I think its suspicious that Ghrur wants us to focus on the Kenpachi vote list. Ghrur suggests that we should assume mafia knew BB was mafia. But its clear BB was afk the whole game, so theres no reason for mafia to think BB is the CE. Ghrur’s statement makes no sense, so I think its safe to assume mafia did not know BB was traitor. Ghrur’s plea for us to look at Kenpachi’s votelist is nonsensical. If Node and Youngminii are mafia, it doesn’t make sense for the vote to be that close, given that we know Ghrur is mafia. Ghrur’s deciding vote doesn’t make sense if mafia are on both sides of the vote and the vote is that close. I think this PM is just a red herring. Unless Kenpachi flips green, theres no indication why Node and Youngminii are mafia even if they’re lurking. A lot of people have been lurking this game, and one has already flipped blue. So I doubt the mafia changed their bandwagon to "save" Kenpachi. This is an idea that would be supported by mafia in the case that Kenpachi is innocent which I feel is likely. His conclusion is: there is no conclusion. So another big post that looks like he's making a huge contribution but isn't saying anything. "Mafia don't know BB was CE" OH SHIT RLY TELL ME MORE I'm trying to find the point here. See if you can. " Really I don't see how this helps us. DH is almost surely town because of the spotlight? Lets assume DH is mafia. If we lynch him, where does it lead us? Quite possibly nowhere, since at this point it seems like people actually are blindly claiming to him. If anyone wants to enlighten us as to why DH's being mafia will lead to a town victory, I'll listen. But as of now, I don't think there's any reason to believe DH's spotlighting makes him almost confirmed innocent. All I hear is bits an pieces of information that do nothing to help inform me of what to think because everything is going on behind the scenes. Furthremore, DH is making way too many unconditional and unsupported statements like "if the second medic claims to me, 2 mafia die". More unconditional orders that in no way holds DH accountable. It's obvious that explanations that sort of thing is being withheld to protect the town. "Everything is going on behind the scenes." Then get involved? If I'm mafia, the mafia have already won. If I'm mafia the mafia won on night 1. In the case that I'm godfather, it's really just a case of how long I'm willing to wait before I drop the bomb and kill all the blues. I have received a message (from DH ) stating that DTA has been "scummy" in PMs, but this doesn't tell me anything. Then he asks for my thoughts. All I do know is that DTA answered my first PM coldly and didn't answer my second which I sent a few days ago. Does this make DTA scummy? I don't know. I don't have enough information to make a good decision. I'm sorry DH, but you can't ask for something in exchange for nothing. This is supposed to be town v. mafia, not you v. mafia. Asking for my opinion when all the information is hidden in PMs isn't exactly going to help me or you make informed decisions. Ask for what you're thinking? Yes asking for your opinion is helpful, sharing your opinion is helpful. So far you've had zero opinions except: people should be active we don't know anything drh is mafia maybe or maybe not dta is scum maybe or maybe not All I know is that the Kenpachi deal is awfully scummy. I can't see how mafia has a reason to jump ship to BB at the last minute if Kenpachi is clean. Unless theres more reason than some WIFOM "feeling" or equally unsupported targets, Kenpachi seems like the best target to me. Reasons like "oh mafia are letting this go too easily" are just WIFOM here. And from what I hear going on behind the scenes, it seems like quite a few people don't like the Kenpachi lynch at this point. As for Pandain's statement: Supporting the kenpachi switch = mafia idea, a notion that at least 1 mafia is vocally supporting guaranteed. Instead, there's quiet disagreements, but no outright attempt. This makes me think mafia is at least content to let him be lynched, as for some reason people have decided to lynch for really no reason. I don't think mafia would want to make an outright attempt. Given the strong momentum against Kenpachi, I would think outright defense would be suicide. Subtle manipulation or sacrificing Kenpachi seems like better options for mafia. Notice he repeats the original theme of "mafia are probably being quiet". Also this statement: by assuming ghrur's vote implies that he was saving him, you're implying he's mafia. So your evidence that kenpachi is "mafia" relies on the assumption that he IS mafia. Which is not very sound logic, btw . doesn't match with this statement: Also he voted for kenpachi which is something mafia would love to take the opportunity to bandwagon on. Really both are the same type of argument. So I don't see why you endorse the second but not the first. " Why did we let him get away with this shitty argument? they match up just fine. "Call kenpachi mafia because he IS mafia then vote for him" is something mafia WOULD love to do. He doesn't see this from a town perspective, his logic is wrong. Sloppy defense. On December 01 2010 09:08 JimboSilvers wrote: Besides the slew of inactives and semi-inactives, (georgecloony, protactinium, cubedin, etc.) and PM dodgers (Glasse, DTA, Pandain, etc.), my top suspect is annul. He's been present throughout the thread, and has said nothing of interest except bashing DH's play in a game that is supposedly for learning. But what strikes me as odd is his reaction to Kenpachi reposting Pandain's analysis. While I'm not sold on Pandain's actual analysis, the reaction is interesting. He blows up in thread, and further states that he "heavily defends attacks" against him no matter what his role is. Yet he ignored Pandain's original accusation while voting Pandain. And now he's acting like he has nothing to say and doesn't want to contribute to the town. I would like to hear what annul has to say about this unless he's just going to repeat that he doesn't find anything meaningful to say (doubtful). Bad attack on Annul. None of the attacks on him were worth defending honestly. Annul: what better way to teach the game than to show them precisely what the "non-learning" games are all about? but okay, sure. real analysis? the only thing we need now is pandain to attempt to get people to claim to him in PMs and to start a circle and we have a standard TL mafia game. drh is already vying for day 1 leader so we are certainly off to the normal start. thing of note is that the OP explicitly says not all roles may exist in the game. dont do analysis assuming all these roles are there, especially when trying to reverse engineer rolecounts through the guise of "well, THIS is balanced!" etc. also if this is a "learning game" then i guess we should stick to the bread and butter playstyles and not go all out with crazy trickeries and gambits and stuff pointless post of nothing, no one cares ps i voted for darth because a random vote on drh is pretty frowntown given the daily circumstances I agree :3 haunted and insane actually had a lot of content to discuss on day 1, surprisingly enough because of elections and clues wifom baby yeah <3 shut up drh PMed me before day post even came up... - Hide Spoiler - From: DoctorHelvetica [ 9498 posts | Profile | Buddy ] Subject: Re: sup witch buddy Date: 11/26/10 12:13 and by everybody i mean like 5 people becuase im too lazy to pm everyone ghrur is dumb and thinks i am actually mafia who didn't get the pm with my teammates SIGH ----------------------------------------- Original Message From annul: what? if youre claiming witch then i think you just broke the game, cuz i did not get sent a witch role =\ ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: lol so who else in our team? so i mean drh seems to be messaging everybody with garbage like this; its not really surprising in a newbie game that maybe 1 person is going to bite. so of course i dont believe any PM claims. i do think though that you can look at what is said in PM as evidence for day 1 lynches, but not in a "well he claimed so we believe him" way Criticism on me, slight downtalk on the use of PMs Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: maybe i didnt like his response to my pm Hide nested quote - despite his defense of you, i like coagulation of this list. he has said a LOT of stuff and yet almost nothing at all at the same time. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: pandain, coagulation, georgecloony, kitaman27, youngminii, and node you have to pick 1 to lynch, who would it be? I remember this PM. Already annul is talking as though he doesn't trust me, yet he says "even though he defended you" as though he's "sure" I'm town. This is a common mafia slip because they know everyones alignment (except CE's) RIGHT? Wrong. Thinking about this more deeply it's hardly a mafia slip. Here is the more likely scenario. He's FoSing the guy who defended me the most, of course he'd point that out ot me since it would be in my direct interest to have someone survive that is on my side whether I'm mafia or not. It's completely inconclusive. Later jimbosilvers comes out and says "oh thats scummy and suspicious" without explaining why. BS. i heavily defend attacks against me no matter what, green blue or red. make a note of this. i claimed this in haunted (red), followed it up in insane (blue), and continued the trend in sengoku (blue, though i guess that isn't "proven" yet). why stop now? You didn't do that against the one pandain posted not too long ago before this one. And you didn't do it for anything else in this game annul. i think he should random a green and give him the DT =\ DECISIVELY pro-town idea dunno why'd a mafia suggest this unless to make themselves look more like a townie. ;D ... ;D that said, the other, more probable alternative way this could fuck town over (other than him being godfather i mean) is that he is actually mafia and his "DT" is either another mafia player and/or doesnt exist. in a game like this with only 1 mafia team, sacrificing 1 member for completely fucking the town circle is a good play, especially if he can get a few other blues out of the deal. this was bad in haunted because the red teams wanted to kill the other red team and NOT the town, but here with only 1 red team and their target the town, those blues will fall pretty quickly to a play like that. That's actually a fair point. The more I read this the less convinced I am annul is mafia. Repetition can make you suspicious of somebody. Keep saying "hey annul is suspicious" and people will believe it eventually. Even I voted for him. tbh this game is prematurely fucked for the town due to a DT suiciding so like i really have stopped paying much attention since then if im still alive later on in the game im sure i will pay more attention to the stuff (and, specifically, look at individual posts of the ones still alive), but in the meanwhile ill give cursory skims and vote my gut and/or what people i think are town are voting. for some reason i just do not "feel" this game =( id almost say "go and kill me" but i mean you really are better off just finding scum, not lynching a townie for not caring so much on day 2 not that i think i am in any danger whatsoever, mind you Now this is suspicious. DT for a Mafia is a fair trade PLUS we got CE. Why would you be depressed about this? Night 1 was an overwhelming victory for town and town is still in the advantageous position. I have mafia by the balls (any action they make will be scrutinized heavily within both the inner and outer town circles which have multiple layers of confirmation (i feel smart for doing this just let me pat myself on the backand credit goes to the DT too) and mafia can now be pinpoined by their hit choices by so many people there is no way they can see it coming) I can explain the layered town circle thing after the game ends, I think this is the best way to do town circles, I'll work on improving it for my next game as town. He did martyr himself which is a shitty move but NOT a mafia one. No mafia says "lynch me im sick of this game", especially not a conscientous and careful mafia player such as annul. btw, it goes against my mafia DNA to "give up" - i am only explaining why i am not so active in this one right now when it gets deeper in the game if i am still here i will do my part, for sure. Yeah, my point exactly. jcarl the reason for that is because i feel it is usually better to say nothing if you have nothing to say. when i have stuff to say believe me i say it. this goes for whatever color i happen to be. notice in haunted i pretty much said nothing of significance for the first two days and then when i felt i had a chance to affect the game, i started making noise... not claiming red by any stretch, but that is just how i play no matter what. and right now if i were to speak up on something or FOS someone, it wouldnt be strong. i dont feel it right now. when i do, i will, thats all im saying. I think everyone has felt the same way. Why force a player to post when they have nothing to say? My conclusion from this is that annul isn't mafia at all. That jimbosilvers is part of a mafia conspiracy to incriminate annul based on nothing but pure bullshit. Annul isn't playing like mafia he is playing like someone who has little to no town experience and doesn't know what to do. Fact: people who are in a mafia team make LESS mistakes but more SIGNIFICANT mistakes Townies: make many mistakes as they are unsure of their convictions and recieve information constantly from both sides of alignment, mafia have tunnel vision. You have to exploit the fact that mafia have tunnel vision and have information town doesn't to find them. I think this is what I've done. Anyone else feel free to contribute their analysis of my analysis. And don't go analysing everybody, that's a common mafia scam. Keep it focused. jimbosilvers and annul. "I don't like how his play has been nothingness and critical of DH" Really? How critical? Those 2 half assed warnings everyone made about roleclaiming and how I'm fishing? Yeah, very scathing. Here are your PMs with me: http://www.mediafire.com/?mt2bit41xhb1pzm I'll be focusing on JimboSilvers. but I have posts ready on Aeres and Radfield as well. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On December 02 2010 10:36 Glasse wrote: i'm wondering what happened to that "if the second medic claims to me mafia is fucked and 2 of em will die" more like "if the second medic claim to me, i'm gonna make sure they both die tonight" Err this doesn't make any sense. far before I said that both kenpachi and coagulation had both claimed medic to me. I told others coagulation claimed to me and that kenpachi had as well. The inner town circle was aware of this as soon as it happened. My thought was that Kenpachi was faking it out of desperation and that if someone counterclaims I'd be hushhush about it and have the DT check Kenpachi or push relentlessly for his lynch. No one ever counterclaimed so that's what kept my trust in Kenpachi alive. Isn't that pretty obvious of a trap? The second medic in theory already DID claim to me. It was to trap fake claiming scum. That's why I asked for another mad hatter claim specifically because I didn't trust my mad hatter at the time. If I wanted to get some kills off why not ask for the "real" dt to come forward desperately. Because I trust the one that did much more than the medics or the MH. Bad analysis bro. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
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Hopefully SouthRawrea will come back me up and quote the section of our quicktopic in which I told them beforehand about the PMs. Also not the PM time: 12/1/10 20:03 10 hours ago. He never responded to tell me I was suspicous or "lol bullshit" or "hey is this a trap or something" nothing. Just complete radio silence and then BOOM he calls me out. So you're less dumb than I thought but not as smart as you could have been JS. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
Annul carried the vampires to victory on his shoulders in Haunted Mafia and is the sort of player to be very active in town circles and in the thread (getting more and more active) as a scum player. This is actually the opposite of the way HE plays scum and none of his posts have clear anti-town goals. Townies contradict themselves in small ways like that all the time. You can read my analysis of why Annul wasn't scum along with my analysis of why JimboSilvers is. I gave pandain my analysis of why you are scum as well. He is adding his thoughts and will post it. My suggestion is to lynch you today, vig hit jimbosilvers tonight, and to lynch aeres tomorrow. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
Inner Town Circle: Myself Amber (obvious town) 1 Detective SouthRawrea (DT confirmed) Outer Town Circle: Everyone who roleclaimed a blue role to me. The Inner Town Circle only lets in people the detective has checked. I find it unlikely that there was a leak from there. SouthRawrea is the DT confirmed player. Roleclaim to him if you wish. I am now putting suspicion on people who didn't roleclaim earlier. Obviously mafia would not want to, especially the godfather. considering how many blues I know (they would know if they were all legit or not) they have to literally all claim townie to me or be put under heavy spotlight suspicion. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
sorry i don't english ^^ | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
Town circles are tricky, and should always be conducted on a need to know basis. We have both a miller and godfather, which severely slows down a potential Town Circle. If you're a dt, no one needs to know you're a dt until you find a red, and at that point you can go through an intermediary (someone you've already checked, who is likely[though not certainly] town aligned) and get them to speak up in the thread. The identity of the dt is biggest secret that needs to be kept. Agreed! Once the godfather goes down, the town circle will become immensely powerful. Keep in mind though, that the ONLY way to catch the godfather is through post analysis, and that as long as the gf is alive, the town circle is flawed. Hence, we need to focus on post analysis first, and town circles second. Not necessarily. For instance if the DT checked someone and returned DT it would be almost 100% the godfather. I don't think there are any (good) hard and fast rules for dealing with roleclaiming in thread. Each needs to be dealt with on a case by case basis. If someone roleclaims out of the blue, that needs to be dealt with very differently then someone roleclaiming on death row. We don't necessarily need to worry about the medics and dt's just yet. The mafia have all day to choose who will be the godfather, so offering the dt options at this point is somewhat useless. Doctors go with their gut or anyone they think is particularly valuable. The role that really needs to be discussed is the Paranoid Villager(vigilante). Do NOT fire until there is good reason to do so. A well timed vig shot can be very, very useful as the game progresses, because it can give the town what amounts to a double lynch. eg. you have 2 lynch candidates on day 3, instead of overly worrying about who to kill, you simply lynch one and vig the other during the night. This saves both a lynch, and a potential dt check. As far as Vet and Mad Hatter, there are lots of options for sneaky plays to draw hits, but you don't necessarily need to get carried away. Reasoned discussion and good posting is normally enough to get shot. So this whole post is good advice for blues. BloodyC0bbler did the same thing in XXXI and he was mafia. Meaningless, it's pro-town but only to a certain extent. A very small extent. This is something I like to do as mafia as well. On November 27 2010 06:59 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Alright so town circle stuff, here is what I know: I know one player who is almost certainly a confirmed medic I know one player who is either a blue role or a red role (not green) There is absolutely no way that someone can be almost certainly confirmed at this point in the game. Not to mention, there is no way any medic can be confirmed in this set-up, because no one is notified if they took a hit and were medic saved. Wow, what a perfect cover for the GF..... What you actually know is that two players are either red or blue(I'm assuming the other player roleclaimed blue). I'll admit that a roleclaim at this point is so strange it's probably true, but again, the only player who has nothing to lose from a roleclaim at this point is the GF. also if he is mafia, i have him in a trap. if he is a mafia medic i can make sure certain people don't get hit, thus almost being something of a medic role myself, because if he tells me "i'm protecting player x" and then player x dies along with 2 others then he's in deep shit Obviously the mafia just won't kill player x in this case. Yes it keeps them alive, but it slowly and surely leaks the town circle. Honestly, the only people who can be trusting at this point are mafia. Why? Because they know who all the townies are, so of course they can be trusting. Stop roleclaiming in PMs people! I don't care if you're green or not, every PM roleclaim hurts the town at this point. The town circle needs to be build from the dt(s) outwards, not from random flying PMs. Yes, based on analysis of the circumstances surrounding it. I don't find this post scummy or not scummy. It's just good discussion of the town circle. Radfield knows how to appear town as mafia, he won't be obvious in a discussion like this. What circle!? NO ONE SHOULD BE PMING DR H THEIR ROLES. It's day 1 folks, that means zero dt checks have been done, and the mafia haven't even chosen the godfather. This is a great way to lose the game on day 1..... Dr H is actively calling for roleclaims on Day 1!? Does this not alarm anyone else? Basically as far as i can tell, the idea is to put our faith in Dr H(for no reason) and hope he's not mafia. Because if he IS mafia, and there's nothing indicating he isn't, then our blues get completely hung out to dry. Why would we ever gamble like this? No roleclaims people. Today is about lynching and forcing people to vote and post, not about giving away what advantage we have. Slowly twisting the fact that someone DID roleclaim to me to "I"m asking for roleclaims". Radield is a good scumhuner and a very logical player. He would KNOW that's not true. This post is complete bullshit. He is correct in the case that I'm asking for people to roleclaim (an idea that I assure you will be parroted by mafia whether radfield is guilty or not) On November 27 2010 12:11 DoctorHelvetica wrote: i'm not asking anybody to roleclaim to me, where are you getting that idea? i presented a few ideas for a possible town circle and asked town to discuss them. You aren't coming out directly and saying it, but you're certainly insinuating it. if he is willing, my current proposition is to have him protect me like a bodyguard indefinitely and then I can coordinate the town network but there are problems with that: -you guys have to trust me, but I think I proved my leadership prowess in Insane Mafia and I promise to improve as town in this game (if youngminii doesn't shoot me) the best thing is that only one person will know peoples roles and if I'm telling people about what others are saying I'll refer to them only as "the medic" "the DT" etc. Also, your story doesn't match up: On November 27 2010 07:40 DoctorHelvetica wrote: i sent out some random pm's for kicks and a player just immediately told me he was the medic i wasn't expecting that but it kinda gives me something to work with i guess. i told him to shut up and not tell anyone else though tip for town players: don't randomly roleclaim to people who PM you unrelated nonsense No mention of Shutting up etc + Show Spoiler + Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: i know why would you roleclaim to me so suddenly? i wasn't even going to ask, although I guess I can give you advice. Medic is a pretty easy role I think, just go after vets/anyone who roleclaims an important role like DT unless you're really suspicious. it's a role i always wish i would get but I never do. I think its playstyle suits me actually. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From SOMEBODY thats not even a role. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: cool i got dracula ----------------------------------------- Original Message From PLAYERDUDEGUY I got medic. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: whats up buttercup I realize this isn't much, but come on... you only told us 1 single detail about your PM conversation, but then when you show us the convo it's not there? What are we really supposed to think?? Care to explain? I corrected his wrong points here. :"Where I told him not to claim to others: MEDICCLAIMER: you're a much better player then me. I'm taking a gamble assuming your town.. but I already claimed to you. so if i die i die. however if you are really town then I will be best off working with you. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: maybe why so submissive? it's making me feel weird ----------------------------------------- Original Message From MEDICCLAIMER: I will let you call the shots. just pm who you want me to protect. I can prot you night 1 if you want. ----------------------------------------- Original Message From DoctorHelvetica: Please tell me who you protect each night. That way I can be sure you aren't mafia faking medic and if you just pick bullshit like random inactives for no reason then it'll be pretty obvious you're scum. If I know the name of a confirmed townie, I'll tell you so you can tell that person who you're protecting ahead of time. Maybe. If you do trust me you can tell me ahead of time. Because if it turns out that you protect someone and two people die (including them) and vet doesn't claim the hit then you're mafia. I trust you though, I don't think mafia would just blueclaim to me so brazenly and quickly. Don't claim to anyone else btw, just keep it on the down low. I'm going to try to start a town circle. If I find anyone who can be trusted, I'll refer you to them. There needs to be a level of disconnection so mafia/GF don't fuck everything up. I'm still trying to think of a safe link system or something i'll let u know I'm not going to reveal every single PM I get, but it's getting ridiculous that I'm being twisted as scum just because another player chose to roleclaim to me without prompt. If someone can explain how the medic claim is a good mafia play and how it will ruin us/hurt the town circle then that's fine. " He highlights the parts of my posts where it could be implied I'm asking people to roleclaim except for the parts where I say that its' preferable to go through a DT confirmed townie. A DT confirmed townie even came out! And people chose to roleclaim to me instead, not by my choosing. because I have so many roleclaims I didn't necessarily ask for, the responsibility has been shoved onto me at this point and it's a weight I'm more than willing to carry. OK, we're running out of time here. There's absolutely no reason that people should be able to coast through Day 1. Voting Pandain until he posts some content, then moving down the list of people who i know should be posting more content. If Day 1 becomes about pressure votes, so be it. We can't analyse posts if there are none.... 5. Scaramanga 6. Kenpachi 7. Amber[light 11. youngminii 15. deconduo Ouch, the old "there is nothing to analyse or talk about. Well that's pretty clearly not the case. Quite a few things happened which Radfield conveniently ignored and well "let's move onto my list of mafia selected inactives: Scaramange: dead DT Kenpachi: medic claimer, no counterclaim occurs Amber: only person I am 100% sure is town based on pure post analysis. I'll kill myself if he's mafia youngminii: trustworthy and crucial to town success deconduo: dead mad hatter look at the inactives he conveniently left out: protactinium georgeclooney rocco12005 OK, Pandain has posted, Scara you're next. 5. Scaramanga 6. Kenpachi 7. Amber[light 11. youngminii 15. deconduo Pushing his inactive list, ignoring certain inactives. Why? Artanis is not on that list because he had one meaty post at that point, and because he was modkilled in the only game i remember playing with him(ie I didn't actually expect him to post more) You'll notice that there are other players who were inactive who didn't make the list(rocco etc.) The players on that list are either people i'd played with before, or people who are highly active on TL. That list was not meant as a definitive inactivity list, it was meant as a pressure tool for people who I know can play decently. He only asked why artanis isn't on it. Realized your mistake? I don't buy defenses for things you weren't accused of. also I rue the day someone calls kenpachi's play decent. What game did you play with him in exactly? Why didn't you pressure people who had posted no content/hardly anything who had experience. Like Glasse? 3 shitty useless posts is scummier than no posts especially when the game had really JUST started. Town Circles We should not be checking DoctorH to try and make him the centerpiece of some grand PM circle. If he IS mafia, then he's obviously the godfather, so checking him is a waste. If we want to make a PM circle, dt's need to go about it in the same conservative fashion as always, and need to pick someone other than DH to start with. Players spotlight themselves for different reasons, but one of those reasons is because they are scum. Take a look at BB: [blue]Fair point. yes I would be godfather. And I don't spotlight myself as mafia, but I do post a hell of a lot. On November 27 2010 05:56 BrownBear wrote: And so far, nobody has really shown themselves to be either particularly pro or anti-town. For now, I'm voting myself for mayor as a placeholder (although I actually might try to run, depending on the other candidates). I'm starting to think it might be just a great idea to just start throwing votes-for-lynch on the nonspeakers, try and get them to talk. If we can't find anyone, this game is large enough for us to get away with lynching an inactive purely based on their inactivity, at least the first day. To that end, I'm voting that the mayor should lynch georgeclooney. Get to talkin' boy. Before Brownbear went AFK, he basically started a campaign for mayor. Yes, there is no mayor and it was stupid, but that doesn't change the fact that he still ran for it. This immediatly pegged BB as either red or blue, since townies should only be running for mayor if they are extremely strong players, which BB knows he is not(no offence, but only about 4/5 players fall into this category on this site). Turns out he was Black in this case, but that's close enough. My town circle advice for ALL players is this: Ignore it. If it forms, it forms, but don't try to force it. This game, just like most mafia games before it, will be won or lost by scumhunting, not by PM circles. Focusing on a town circle removes responsibility from players to actually do the work of combing the thread for scummy posts. It also places all our eggs in one basket. On November 28 2010 17:54 aidnai wrote: Is the priority right now really to find confirmed townies to strengthen the town circle? or is it to find confirmed scum? . All new players take note, no wiser words have been spoken. This game is about focusing on who is MAFIA, not who is town. How many times have you used the ALL function to CTRL-F through the thread for a certain players posts? I have done it dozens of times so far, and will continue to do it dozens more before i die(hopefully more than ~12hrs from now). I suggest everyone else do the same. Night Actions: We have two possible actions to discuss right now, DT and Medic. Hatters are on their own as always, and PV should be holding their shot for now. If you are a newb and got the mad hatter role, place a bomb tonight. Place it on either whomever you think is scummiest, or if you have no idea, whomever you think will most likely be lynched by the town (Killing the likeliest lynchee probably saves us a lynch). Doctors protect either whomever you think is likeliest to die, or whomever you think is most valuable to town. Dt's should be looking hard for scum. Priority #1 is finding mafia, priority #2 is building a town circle. Keep that in mind. Says town circle should be started only by DT's yet makes sure DT's know it isn't a priority. This is a pretty big post not saying much by the way. You are correct that scumhunting is the focus typically but hard focus on scumhunting is easily manipulatable by mafia. Confirmed townies are not. It is also much easier to determine who is definitely town than it is to determine who might be mafia based on post analysis. So some groundbreaking analysis and discussion here: scumhunting is good town circles bad! dts dont form town circles but only dts should form them he contributes nothing to the actual game. this post is appropriate for a learning game but is of almost no use to town otherwise. how easy it must be for a mafia to just keep giving good advice while seeming to be "pro-town" and not actually do shit. On November 28 2010 22:09 Radfield wrote: Can one of you please explain what went on here?? This is very true, and an excellent obs. Looking at how the voting went down: Kenpachi 3 BB 1 this is where we stand with about 4 hours remaining, then: Jimboslivers -- BB DrH -- BB KtheZ--KP Kenpachi -- BB Pandain -- BB Node -- KP EsbenPM -- BB Youngmini -- KP Southrawrea -- BB Deconduo -- KP(test) Darth -- KP(test) It is now 8 for KP, 7 for BB Aeres -- switch from KP to BB ghrur -- BB The changed vote puts BB in the chair, and the vote from ghrur throws the switch. The test by DTA and deconduo succeeds. Keep in mind that BB is a townie for these purposes, because mafia have no reason to think otherwise. Seems to me that Kenpachi should almost certainly be checked or lynched, as his alignment gives us some quality info. Assuming he flips red, that gives us EsbenPM, Southrawrea, Aeres and ghrur as the final votes coming down the wire. Aeres with the all important switched vote becomes highly suspicious(yes he voted for KP earlier, but it was just a placeholder). The other BB voters are Pandain, DrH and Jimboslivers. If he flips green, it's a dead end since both would be townies and the mafia would likely be split between them. This seems far too juicy to gloss over, as a little pushing could net us a huge gain. Thoughts? Again, thoughts like this are likely to have been echoed by mafia and I believe this is a concerted effort by mafia to cover up their mistake of lynching BrownBear. Well they know Kenpachi is innocent so let's kill him now. Also mafia can force people to look bad by defending them weirdly or voting on them a certain way so when they die they are incriminated, or if they are checked. Just a thought. On November 29 2010 07:46 Radfield wrote: This is a blessing in disguise. Every person in this game(including myself) need to work on their scumhunting skills, and realize that blue roles are only icing. Since the dawn is fast approaching, it's time for me post before i die(62.5%). Likely players with roles(ie Blue or Red, if they turn up green be mildly suspicious) Annul Amber Youngminii Kitaman Artanis Barundar Southrawrea As always though, things don't really get cooking until Day 2. If a medic saw it in his heart to pay me a visit tonight, I would not object. I highly recommend all new players check out Ver's analysis of Mafia XXX. In fact, i recommend ALL players check it out. It's worth both a read and a re-read. Ace's guide to being mafia is also very worth reading. Look at how much advice I'm giving!I must be pro-town! Hey speaking about that scumhunting....wanna do some? On November 30 2010 02:20 Radfield wrote: My apologies everyone, I've had a bit of a crisis at my house. I will try to pick this up tonight/tomorrow, or if RoL has replacements lined up that works for me too. I just need a bit of time I'm sorry about this and I believe it. But you should have been scumhunting/contributing something a bit more thoughtful than generic advice insofar and up to this post. OK, this day is in danger of becoming a total waste. Yes, if Kenpachi flips red, that's fantastic and we lynch Aeres next due to the vote flip-flop(unless someone has a convincing argument against). If Kenpachi flips blue(as he's claiming) not only do we lose a blue, but we lose an entire day to inactivity. + Show Spoiler + On November 29 2010 11:10 Amber[LighT] wrote: This I received from Ghrur... I don't know if he was trying to keep me away from others, but he did provide a "list" he was suspicious of: Show nested quote + Hey, nights about to end, and we're about to get some new information, but before that happens, can I ask you what you think about Town's reasoning on who's mafia? I understand that I draw suspicion because I basically cemented Brownbear's lynch, and if we look at him as a townie, it's like, yeah durrr people who voted BB. But the thing is, I don't think that's actually a totally fair assumption to make. I mean, did you see Protact's way of "fishing?" I think it's the scum's way of getting in touch with the chaos ensuant. Then, guess what, Protact just happened to vote FOR Kenpachi to maybe help save Brownbear? Anyway, I think it makes sense that mafia DID get in contact with BB, and in that case, we shouldn't be focusing on who voted BB, but who voted Kenpachi. This includes: Barunder Protactinium Node KtheZ Youngminii I'd say Node and Youngminii are fairly quiet, which both makes me think they could be lurking mafia. However, I'd like to get your opinion on this because while it makes sense, the rest of the town seemed to have just glossed over it. =/ Thanks for not killing me though, Ghrur. ^____^ Assuming Amber is telling the truth, ghrur called out 5 players towards the end of the night: Barunder ---> died that night, why bother to put him on the list if he ghrur knows he is about to die? Protactinium---> heaps a bit of extra suspicion on top Node ---> adds in that he is 'quiet' KtheZ--->nothing Youngminii--->adds in that he is 'quiet' This gives all of these players at least an ounce of credibility, but not much more than that yet. It's pretty standard that mafia generally stick 1 or 2 fellow mafia in lists like this. Dr H, you seem almost surely town at this point, as you continue to brazenly spotlight yourself. In fact, it seems to me like you are screaming out to be hit right now, which makes me hope you are a vet/hatter. Looking at what you've said so far, presumably you have a hatter+ Show Spoiler + "The second mad hatter should claim to me. It's possible there are three mad hatters in this game, but it seems unlikely" , a dt + Show Spoiler + "A town circle is growing" , and a medic. Presumably another townie or blue role from the dt check, unless he decided to check you before telling you his alignment. Anyways, you've been throwing a lot of statements into the thread without a lot of reasoning(which isn't a bad thing), but that doesn't really get us anywhere. I think either keep those things to PM's, or really hit us with some reasoning. Anyways, the kenpachi lynch is a done deal, as it should be. The potential gain from his lynch far outweighs any potential loss. That being said, lets take the time now to discuss where we go after the lynch. No reason to waste the rest of the day. Also:+ Show Spoiler + On November 30 2010 15:30 annul wrote: tbh this game is prematurely fucked for the town due to a DT suiciding so like i really have stopped paying much attention since then if im still alive later on in the game im sure i will pay more attention to the stuff (and, specifically, look at individual posts of the ones still alive), but in the meanwhile ill give cursory skims and vote my gut and/or what people i think are town are voting. for some reason i just do not "feel" this game =( id almost say "go and kill me" but i mean you really are better off just finding scum, not lynching a townie for not caring so much on day 2 not that i think i am in any danger whatsoever, mind you OK, this day is in danger of becoming a total waste. Yes, if Kenpachi flips red, that's fantastic and we lynch Aeres next due to the vote flip-flop(unless someone has a convincing argument against). If Kenpachi flips blue(as he's claiming) not only do we lose a blue, but we lose an entire day to inactivity. + Show Spoiler + On November 29 2010 11:10 Amber[LighT] wrote: This I received from Ghrur... I don't know if he was trying to keep me away from others, but he did provide a "list" he was suspicious of: Show nested quote + Hey, nights about to end, and we're about to get some new information, but before that happens, can I ask you what you think about Town's reasoning on who's mafia? I understand that I draw suspicion because I basically cemented Brownbear's lynch, and if we look at him as a townie, it's like, yeah durrr people who voted BB. But the thing is, I don't think that's actually a totally fair assumption to make. I mean, did you see Protact's way of "fishing?" I think it's the scum's way of getting in touch with the chaos ensuant. Then, guess what, Protact just happened to vote FOR Kenpachi to maybe help save Brownbear? Anyway, I think it makes sense that mafia DID get in contact with BB, and in that case, we shouldn't be focusing on who voted BB, but who voted Kenpachi. This includes: Barunder Protactinium Node KtheZ Youngminii I'd say Node and Youngminii are fairly quiet, which both makes me think they could be lurking mafia. However, I'd like to get your opinion on this because while it makes sense, the rest of the town seemed to have just glossed over it. =/ Thanks for not killing me though, Ghrur. ^____^ Assuming Amber is telling the truth, ghrur called out 5 players towards the end of the night: Barunder ---> died that night, why bother to put him on the list if he ghrur knows he is about to die? Protactinium---> heaps a bit of extra suspicion on top Node ---> adds in that he is 'quiet' KtheZ--->nothing Youngminii--->adds in that he is 'quiet' This gives all of these players at least an ounce of credibility, but not much more than that yet. It's pretty standard that mafia generally stick 1 or 2 fellow mafia in lists like this. Dr H, you seem almost surely town at this point, as you continue to brazenly spotlight yourself. In fact, it seems to me like you are screaming out to be hit right now, which makes me hope you are a vet/hatter. Looking at what you've said so far, presumably you have a hatter+ Show Spoiler + "The second mad hatter should claim to me. It's possible there are three mad hatters in this game, but it seems unlikely" , a dt + Show Spoiler + "A town circle is growing" , and a medic. Presumably another townie or blue role from the dt check, unless he decided to check you before telling you his alignment. Anyways, you've been throwing a lot of statements into the thread without a lot of reasoning(which isn't a bad thing), but that doesn't really get us anywhere. I think either keep those things to PM's, or really hit us with some reasoning. Anyways, the kenpachi lynch is a done deal, as it should be. The potential gain from his lynch far outweighs any potential loss. That being said, lets take the time now to discuss where we go after the lynch. No reason to waste the rest of the day. Also:+ Show Spoiler + On November 30 2010 15:30 annul wrote: tbh this game is prematurely fucked for the town due to a DT suiciding so like i really have stopped paying much attention since then if im still alive later on in the game im sure i will pay more attention to the stuff (and, specifically, look at individual posts of the ones still alive), but in the meanwhile ill give cursory skims and vote my gut and/or what people i think are town are voting. for some reason i just do not "feel" this game =( id almost say "go and kill me" but i mean you really are better off just finding scum, not lynching a townie for not caring so much on day 2 not that i think i am in any danger whatsoever, mind you Scumhunting made easy?.... or just a really bad townie You said earlier spotlighting wasn't a reason to trust me. Baseless attack on annul, same as JimboSilvers who I really suspect. There is also no scumhunting in this post. Something you've promised to do and emphasized as very important. Something other players have told me you are exceptionally good at. Remember in Insane Mafia when Ace emphasized scumhunting and then he didn't do it and just jumped off half-assed bandwagons that other misled townies started, gave a bunch of advice and used big words and condescesion to keep accusations away? Remember that? I do, because you're doing the same shit. | ||
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4 blues roleclaimed to me on night 1 without being asked to do so. It was not my intention at the beginning of the game to have everyone roleclaim to me, it was not my intention for this game to be like it is. | ||
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that my analysis is on the right track so you can't let the mafia derail you. | ||
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I remember you asked for the original medics identity but I never actually told you. I thought I did but I re-read our PMs. | ||
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i left out coagulation so mafia would think he was green ;o | ||
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i didn't format it properly and can't be arsed to because my msn/inbox/irc/everything is exploding right now | ||
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On December 02 2010 11:28 JimboSilvers wrote: Uhm lol not everyone has time to spend 24-7 on this thread like you do. But that's ok, keep attacking. You look pretty frantic right now. And if Chaos is your goal you've sure achieved it. Because sadly even after you die town has gotten nowhere. I like this. It's like when you wreck someone in a starcraft match and they say "uh lol at least i dont practice this like u 24/7 nerd GET A LIFE." and you just chuckle to yourself. So you just pop up out of nowhere RIGHT after the day post gets through to "spill the beans" about how I'm the chaos ensuant. And you never even PM'd me back? I was frantic when my circle died on me but now I'm calm. It's very easy to say "wow you seem desparate". Desparate doing what? Accusing you? So it's "frantic" to scumhunt? Don't just pull out bullshit like that. Well at least FINALLY you decide to post some analysis. But sorry, there's a lot of things wrong with your post. For one, you can't assume I'm scum in order to prove that I'm scummy. I'm talking about how your post makes sense as a scum goal, a critical part of scum analysis. Analysing goals. If focusing on inactives means making inactives talk. Which hey! hasn't been done this game. "Talk about blue roles should be avoided"...hey, look where that has got us huh? "great way for mafia to push bandwagons onto innocent townies who are fishing for people to protect/investigate or simply trying to lead town like I am". No. From the games I've read, every town circle idea has combusted into flames. And yet you continue to insist this is pro-town. Notice how you also try to make yourself seem so innocent here when you're clearly not. Clearly not? I "try to make myself look innocent" versus what. Trying to make myself look guilty? I said the town circle should go through a DT confirmed target and everyone ignored me and RC'd to me instead. That's not my fault. It would have worked really well in Insane if the rest of the town wasn't incompetent and I didn't second guess myself too much. Notice the mafia focused shutting down PM circles first and foremost in Insane Mafia as well. I don't watch this thread 24-7 ok. Besides, you know what I've said in thread. Why do I have to repeat myself in PMs?A pro-town player would use the opportunity to bring up his suspicions with the person who you seem to believe is leading the town and most active in town circles. For all you know Annul had already incriminated himself in PMs to me. It's stragne you would never bring it up. Contradicting myself would be awfully suspicious, don't you think? I also never "focused" on players like youngminii. The person who was focusing on DTA/Node/YM and those people was YOU. I suppose when you post that pm bundle in your .txt file everyone can see for themselves.Yes I brought it up, but when we're talking about our suspects and you never really think to mention Annul it sets off a small alarm in my brain. And like I said, you are giving me no information by spouting all this "XX is scummy in PMs" and so forth. I don't have your PMs and I can't read your mind. I was never "set" on annul. He was the scummiest in my mind (after Kenpachi), but nothing conclusive. It certainly doesn't help when you're being anti-town and refusing to show concrete reasoning on other people. Except you. And now radfield. And soon aeres. If I don't have enough information to go off, I can't do anything. This is just a lot of BS to make me look anti-town. You're ignoring your own intentions and actions and focusing on why what I'm doing is bad or wrong. This is called a chainsaw defense and it is a legitimate scumtell (unlike OMGUS). You're defending yourself not by defending yourself but by attacking me. Well yes, now that we know that Kenpachi is town, of course mafia didn't switch the bandwagon to save him. I wrote this much before the day post came up. Try harder. But I guess you knew kenpachi was town far before that right? Hindsight is perfect huh? In the context of what information we had back then, it was perfectly reasonable to think Kenpachi was saved by the mafia. And of course my post has a conclusion. My point was that Ghrur's accusation of Node/YM didn't make sense. [ The context is that people were debating whether there was any deception going on with that Ghrur PM. And when Ghrur is saying "well we should assume mafia was in contact with BB", I'm pointing out that that is nonsensical. It isn't nonsensical. It has a clear intention and that is to distract people from analysing those who early voted for BrownBear and those who tried to get him lynched early on. Yes I'm aware that includes myself. You're nitpicking and trying to isolate my words out of context. If your post wasn't pointless it's only point was to get people to shut up about ghrurs intentions and move on to the next mafia orchestrated bandwagon. You've got it totally wrong here. In IRL mafia games I'm used to, town benefits from discussion in thread. Town doesn't need to be "protected" from information. Unless you're handling dangerous information like the information you've been receiving which never should have gotten to you. YEP I SHOULD DEFINITELY TELL THE TOWN WHO THE DT IS. Are you serious? I would be CRUCIFIED for claiming that sort of stuff and obviously there is information I should withhold like what the roles of the blues who claimed to me are. That's what I'm talking about bro. Look where its got us now? "Then get involved?" Mafia is a forum game, not a secret alliance game. Yeah and a forum has a PM system. I'm telling you it's a useful tool as a townie. Regardless, I did try to PM people. Like Glasse, KtheZ, Pandain, DTA, you, jcarls, Kenpachi, South. Guess what? Only 3 people responded to me. This is not a problem on my end, its a sort of snobish elitism on your end. wut how so? Town needs information. In the thread. Because even when I try, you guys don't seem interested in acknowledging me. So it's my fault none of them responded to you? Yeah ok. Yes town needs information and I've brought a hell of a lot more than you have. And I've kept hidden what needs to be hidden to stop the mafia from hitting our dt and our mad hatter. Keep spewing this BS. I can't make opinions when I have no information to analyze. All I know was stuff on Kenpachi and annul. Asking me about something I have no knowledge about is unfair, especially when you give me nothing to analyze. And if you refuse to do so like you have done, I have no option but to go with the targets I have information on. Of course I'd love to hear what you have to offer, but you keep refusing to give them. You just keep asking me opinions on people who won't respond to my PMs and aren't saying anything meaningful in thread. So in order to ask you what you think of something I should tell you everything they told me/pm'd me? You really think there is no one and nothing to analyse except kenpachi and annul? Jesus. A misinterpretation. Pandain's point is that you cant assume someone is mafia in order to make them fit your reasoning for what scum does. Yet he contradicts himself by making that same assumption to vote DTA. Hypocrisy here. I'll have to reread that in the context of EXACTLY what Pandain is saying. But it seemed like the vote choice was icing on the cake ontop of reasons Pandain already thought made DTA scummy and I'm pretty certain I shared DTA's pms with pandain as well. Whereas assuming ghrur voted to "save" kenpachi is exactly the reasoning the mafia want the town to believe yes? How is this a bad attack? You seem to be the fan of the "poke people and make them react" style. Annul reacted poorly. And yet you dismiss this as a bad argument? Please, the hypocrisy is killing me here. [blue]But not a fan of "the instant they react a way I don't like I FoS them in public or try to get them lynched" I never used this PM in my analysis. I used this post: Stop twisting my arguments. Maybe you didn't even actually read it. Anyway, the rest of your argument makes no sense. (Well none of it does actually). Either way, sure, go ahead and focus on me. You won't get anywhere. The person who is obviously scum (or CE) right now is DH. You misunderstood the last part. I didn't format the post correctly so that part with the PM was part of my analysis of annul, it had nothing to do with you. I'd rather lynch Radfield today, but I am requesting for the vigilante to hit you tonight. And of course you can't consider that I'm simply a misguided townie? Your defensiveness is off the charts scummy. | ||
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It believe in retrospect that it was Pandain who thought that pm was scummy, but it really isn't. | ||
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You're an active mafia player, you're not playing like scum at all int his game. This is the easiest bandwagon. Radfield is playing much like Ace in Insane mafia. I called his scum play on day 1 and made the mistake of not pursuing it to the fullest. | ||
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Coagulation: 1. i posted his pms while redacting his name. coagulation has a distinct writing style 2. he went out of his way to defend me 3. who else is bad enough to rc medic day 1 instantly | ||
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especially when radfield is ahead in votes right now Amber is an obvious target, kenpachi publicly claimed coagulation is a crapshoot. a lot of people were fishing on him and if SR was mafia we'd be out on much more than just the 2 medics. honestly it just seems like successful blue sniping. this will make my future case on you much easier though, thanks for the incredibly scummy post. | ||
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You mean you didn't even consider that someone may have guessed? | ||
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it would not have been difficult for the mafia to snipe coagulation as he was as somebody put "my butt-buddy" and a few other people knew and guessed that he was the medic It's funny that people are trying to turn this around to me based on hit choice. If SouthRawrea is the guilty party that was certainly his intention when he decided the hits but for now I'm not considering that as a serious possibility. Your play has been terrible and useless this game and just NOW you're coming out of the woodworks to get me lynched when you told me you wanted to lay low to avoid "getting lynched"? You've been very supportive of me in PMs up until now as well. Something is telling me you lied about your claim :3 Since, after all, you aren't playing at all like what you said you were. And when I gave you the proper advice you ignored it today. | ||
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and someone else claimed it to me who is much more trustworthy :3 | ||
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Mind weighing in? | ||
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Annul is the "easy" bandwagon and there are other players that are just as if not more guilty of the sort of shit he's bringing to the table. Case in point: Glasse. Here is another person with no posts, a scummily defensive attitude, and no contributions: Aeres. | ||
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No you shouldn't be on the trail of scum at the end of night one. But as far as I know you've been a sitting duck in PMs and of zero to no use in this thread except now to come out with the weak bandwagon on Annul. I feel like this bandwagon has been pre-chosen by mafia as the easy choice, so I'll ask you. Would you be willing to switch to Aeres instead? He showcases the same sort of behavior (lots of posts with no contribution). What about Glasse? PM games are far harder to scumhunt? Not at all, most of the people who came across as scummy to me and who I now expect made it much worse for themselves in PMs. Maybe if you made an attempt to scumhunt in PMs you'd be helpful. But it didn't seem that was the case, even in your PMs with me. PMs favor the good over the bad and in games where everybody is good, they favor the town. It is a huge advantage for mafia that they can change subjects, direct town attention elsewhere when the heat comes on them, with PMs that possibility is marginalized because players can apply the pressure directly. It becomes too scummy to ignore it so mafia players are forced to react until the town player is satisfied. Considering you're one of the better players in this game your lack of abuse of the PM system is startling. It's several posts that I find scummy, PMs that I find scummy (which I still need to post I was waiting for pandain too but he never did), your lack of overall contribution, your desperate attempt to appear as "pro-town" as possible with your rhetoric without ever contributing to the game at hand, and even now your scumhunting is weak. If scumhunting was priority #1 why not start PMing and trying to make these players slip-up? You don't even have any PMs with annul? That says to me you never really thought he was mafia in the first place if you know what I mean. Like I said, I'm willing to switch over to JimboSilvers if your scumhunting is supposedly of such value. Again, are you willing to lynch or kill an alternative target to Annul that has similar posting behavior? Annul is NOT playing like scum and I have observed both as scum and as town. He's playing like he does when he is town. | ||
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But I don't want this to turn into another "DLYV" | ||
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thanks for the support though? | ||
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It's a frustrating late game position and part of the reason I dislike being town. But to digress, mafia aren't going to swear open allegiance to me (although maybe one will now that I've said it) And I have to note as well your tendency to construct fake arguments as mafia. But perhaps not to the extent that it is happening now. My feeling now is that Radfield is the Godfather and I want him to claim his role to me. I would like everyone else to as well because I have a lot of missing pieces in the puzzle and I need to start narrowing things down. If Radfield is not the godfather I believe either Glasse, Youngminii, or possibly jcarlsoniv are. The last one is with only minute suspicion. My current read on the scumteam is thus: Radfield (inactive) Aeres JimboSilvers ghrur Chaoser CE: glasse I suspect inactives such as eiii, esbenPM, or protactinium as well. I trust the other inactives for now, from my PM conversations I feel doubtful they are scum. I'm also willing to look at Node (who has surprisingly not roleclaimed yet) and I need to take a serious reevaluation of youngminii that is only possible if everyone claims. Although he could be lying about his role anyway, 1 is normal for games like this and I trust the other claimer more. | ||
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i can still check pms and will be doing that a whole bunch too. i'm at work for the next 8-10 hours so guys, don't let the fucking mafia confuse you especially don't let them shift the bandwagon conveniently onto me or southrawrea/pandain, anyone like that. jimbosilvers defense was ridiculous, he's so obvious I'd just like to vig hit him but we can lynch him if everyone is uncomfortable about radfield. i'm very comfortable lynching rad though. | ||
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I have no problem destroying your terrible arguments if you want me to lime by line but any sensible person now can see you are scum also youngminii is by all accounts probably lying about his role as veteran. there is usually only 1 vet in a game this size and ym has been purposefully been playing low key, the exact opposite thing a vet should do. he gives me 0 contribution of value in my pms to him and does nothing to contribute until now when mafia try desperately to get me lynched. well i hope every single one of u is ready to vote for me if you want go get this joke wagon off the ground. lynch jimbosilvers today vig hit youngminii tonight the vig can feel free not to claim to me at this point. i can understand the idea that hey "drh knew both medics and they died" but to be fair coag was an easy blue snipe and everyone knew kenpachi. whyy did mfia hit amber? because they failed to convince anyone his pms were fake so its easier to just kill him then fail another bandwagon so i can only hope as the votes pile up on jimbo he gets increasingly defensive and makes himself look worse. he also refuses to claim to me. also if i die tonight it is very important you know there will be mafia supporting me to cover themselves when js and others die. dont disregard someone just because they attacked/argued with a mafia in thread. that sort of thing is planned all the time. | ||
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On December 03 2010 12:36 Eiii wrote: I really don't think mafia has any reason to be in panic mode at this point. We've got (probably) one DT and zero medics. I can't think of any reason mafia would push so hard to split up the circle, either. The only thing left in it that's of any danger to them or significant use to us is the last dt(assuming the counts are what everyone's been assuming they are). My vote is sticking with youngminii, I'm just arguing that Jimbo isn't behaving like I'd expect a mafia to behave in this situation. It seems a ton safer to just lay low and pick off greens now that they're at such an advantage. WiFOM, mafia are likely to defend themselves aggressively or not defend themself for reverse psychology and you end up analysing an infinite circle of possible reverse psychology situations where it gets you nowhere jimbosilvers has post like scum and now he defends like scum we lynch him like scum | ||
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On December 03 2010 11:20 JimboSilvers wrote: I think you misinterpreted my post. That is the exact reasoning I'm trying to counter. DH does NOT have to be town for us to win. Even if he's mafia, we can still win if we lynch him And we'd have to because he would be elder. The critical question here is whether or not DH is mafia. If he is mafia, we MUST lynch him. What I'm trying to counter is the flawed idea that he has to be town for us to win. Yes you can still "win" but the town will continue to hit every blue role (except the vig of course) without abandon. Why is DH mafia? He had a scummy beginning. His "fishing" is not pro-town at all. I would make the argument that fishing is generally a pro-town stance depending on how its done. He has been using other peoples (joking) reactions to argue weak cases. I never used anyones reactions to my jokes in a lynch case. That is a bald faced lie. I used them to clear up why certain things happen (such as kenpachi misunderstanding what I said) Things like a "special townie" claim doesn't mean anything when you yourself are lying in PMs. also not true, that's an absurd statement on many levels. replace "joke" with the word "lie" to make me look bad and then say there is no way a response to a joke/lie can be analyzed is just ridiculous DH has also been trying to form a town circle from day 1. through a DT confirmed townie. I never asked for roleclaims. While he claimsWay to make it sound like maybe I'm lying when it's clear that is what happened. he initially didn't ask people to claim to him, halfway into the dayYes day 3 when I already know the role of more than half the town he is already asking for roleclaims "from those who trust him" and uses the reasoning that he already has a bunch of blues in order to justify getting the rest of the roleclaims. He keeps wanting roleclaims even though he isn't confirmed in any way. DH has been driving town in circles and controlled the Day 2 lynch behind our backsprove or even back up that last statement and I will send you 500 USD in the mail, I'm that confident you can't back it up without crack pot hyptotheticals. He has been claiming all sorts of information such as "If medic claims to me 2 mafia die" without any justification. I explained it lol. If I know 2 medics and someone counterclaims medic that means 1 of the 3 is red. A decidedly "pro-town" fish wouldn't you agree? He hasn't been reasonable when we ask for information to make a decision even though he demands that we give our inputs. How have I not been reasonable? Everytime I've refused to provide information it's because I don't want to reveal the detectives names in public or I didn't want to out coagulation. Yeah what a scummy thing to do, saving blues. Most importantly, like I've already stated, DH wants to make us think he is important. The facts are that even if DH is mafia, we can still win. But DH is wanting us to think that we're doomed anyway if he is mafia, so we might as well not kill him. This is a myth. No honestly you're completely fucked silly if I'm mafia. DH coming up with magic analysis on day 3 doesn't sway me. LOL at magic analysis. You certainly haven't contributed shit besides turning the lynch around onto me with a joke defense. Especially after the Night 2 kills. Which btw he's just tried to shrug off as normal. They're bad but not normal. But I highly doubt that the mafia assumed that both medics would be unprotected. And why would mafia assume the medics would protect eachother as well? DH is in panic mode now. | ||
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repeating this does not make it true I told people to confirm through a confirmed town that is checked by a DT and people just dumbly roleclaimed to me. That isn't my fault, don't try to make me seem scum because thats what happened. I decided I'd use my knowledge of blue roles to try and catch mafia through counterclaims. For instance: I have 1 mad hatter. If a second mad hatter counterclaims, they are probably mafia as the first mad hatter is dead. I have 2 medics. If a third counterclaimed I would have assumed Kenpachi was mafia, but that never happened and he was town so I was right that the counterclaim confirmed him. I even told everyone that a medic roleclaimed to me to DISCOURAGE that sort of behavior. Trying to make me look scum for it is ridiculous. | ||
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On December 03 2010 13:26 Eiii wrote: Enlighten those of us who aren't nearly as experienced at the game-- most of my own past or present concerns about you are reflected in jimbo's post, along with a few extra insights that seem to tie things together a little better. For now, he's the one doing lots of analysis and making arguments for who should be lynched, and you're pretty much just calling out names expecting people to follow suit. If your concern is that I was fishing early or asked everyone to RC to me in the beginning of the game that's a lie and it never happened. Before I even suggested a mass roleclaim to the town I already knew about 12-13 roles. The best thing for the town is to claim so I can narrow down mafia suspects by unlikely role numbers (3 medics, 3 mh, 2 vet, 2-3 vig, 3 dt, etc.) All of the specific counterclaims I asked for were for this reason. That I already had people in that role and wanted to see if any of them were lying as mafia can't risk counterclaiming knowing that I am probably in contact with the real ones. IE: mafia would know what I'm doing and never counterclaim to make me lynch a town aligned medic because the 1:1 trade that occurs in that scenario benefits town and not mafia, but a real town aligned player would counterclaim thus it's designed to catch someone that had already lied to me. as this never happened I hereby trust all of the blueclaimers except for youngminii because I never had any reason to trust it in the first place. | ||
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but i'm using exaggeration to express this point: i'm very very very confident in my point i'm NOT trying to set up some sort of outside negotation/bribe please don't modkill me T_T | ||
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That was the ideal situation in my mind but that's not what ended up happening. | ||
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Radfield Glasse one of those three imo is the godfather like i said, i'm willing to lynch jimbosilvers if the town won't back me up. i'd rather lynch radfield. | ||
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and how is that not addressing his concerns? no i'll eventually go through every single one of your posts, but I'm going backwards and doing a bunch of other shit also. no it isn't asking for roleclaims. since I am town (and I know I am town) i know there is no danger in roleclaiming to me and it would make coordination easier but I supported and proposed the the safest notion. then radfield tries to take credit for it and now mafia are coming out and saying I never wanted people to take the safe route in the first place? hey guess what buddy it was my fucking idea + Show Spoiler + apparently you do not consider this responding to your defense but I will respond to literally every single one of your posts. however this will eventually become a noisy situation much like what happened with me and pandain in insane mafia where pandain kept repeating the same ridiculous things over and over and I'm not going to make the mistake of doing that again. the mantra is an attempt to discourage second guessing and WIFOM. it's my way of saying the simplest and clearest solution/proposition is often the best one. I believe you posted one other defense post recently right? i responded to your most recent one line-by-line but I guess that makes me scum intentionally ignoring everything you say right? absurd. | ||
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On December 03 2010 09:26 JimboSilvers wrote: Yup. I'm apparently so obvious that you don't even have to bother with responding to my defense. Nice avoidance tactics there. It's not an avoidance or scum tactic. Case in point: Insane Mafia Don't Lose Yo Village! I have no intention of avoiding you but I also have no intention of repeating myself over and over again in this thread. Anyway, a bunch of people are running around supporting the terrible argument that "oh noes if DH is mafia we doomed anyway so we might as well keep trusting him!" How is that terrible or even wrong, you won't explain that. You've been sheeped by him the whole game. And you continue to want to sheep him. Way to go. Either way, the logic for this argument is atrocious. Nobody has given any good reasons for us to go flock to DH. They're all based on an idea that just isnt true. Assuming this game is balanced most of the other normal games I've read, we're now at 15 town to 5 mafia. Which is not unwinnable at all. [blue]No it isn't, but it will be nearly unwinnable if mafia knows almost every blue role in the game, which I do.[blue] And looking at the dead blues, there are probably no more blues left besides South's "DT", and maybe a veteran or two.maybe a veteran or two (no dead veterans) and you don't even remember vigs exist in this game? this is more of a bad townie slip than a mafia one tbh but you could just as well be mafia trying to drive home the point that I'm not dangerous anymore as mafia which is absurd so I'll call it WIFOM and deem it inconclusive. Town doesn't really benefit from knowing who the veterans are, only the DTs. whoah of course town benefits from knowing who vets are, assuming mafia doesn't. in fact that is extremely useful. the DT's identity must be protected at all costs. And there's probably only one left. only one to begin with and it's not youngminii which is why we should kill him. Given that this "DT" is already in DH's inner circle, the reasons for "keeping DH because we're doomed anyway" is bad. DH said he shared everything with his circle. This means that DH isn't really crucial to the town's information library. There are 3-4? other people who share this information. DH as town is no more important than anyone else in the circle. He is not as crucial as he wants you to think. This idea that we need to trust DH is blatantly false. But if I'm mafia this means the mafia have all this information as well, that's the point. Mafia has already won because of the extraordinary amount of information they have if I am mafia. You're making the point that I'm not important if I am TOWN aligned which is ridiculous when trying to get me lynched. In fact this makes me twice as suspicious of you. If I die as town then the town isn't necessarily fucked, I've given my information to a few people who can keep my spirit going throughout the thread after my death (and I will likely be hit tonight unless the mafia wants to take the LOL WHY DID HE LIVE angle). This was really bad. Like. Really really really bad. Nobody has told us why the game is already lost if DH is mafia. lol wut I've just shown how eliminating DH won't destroy all of our informationan argument about how i am not significant as town, not as mafia, which should be your point if you're pro-town. and how there are likely few blue roles that would benefit from DH. Using "he knows everything" as an excuse to keep him alive is terrible. not as an excuse to support the mass roleclaim that could potentially catch many mafia? oh yeah of course you wouldn't want THAT. If we're going to win this game, we need to kill the elder. And as stated before by many people, if DH is mafia, hes the elder. We need to kill him right now to lower mafia KP. guys listen to this argument, read past the BS, he's saying: -if DH is a townie then his information is known by others so let's kill him cause he might be the godfather this is laughable DH's play this game has been fantastic. so i'm not dangerous as a mafia and yet my play has been fantastic? am I a useless townie, a bad mafia that can't carry the game, or a fantastic mafia, what am I? He has used propagandalol propaganda. good job supplying some of my "propaganda" to make himself appear "critical" to the town's survivalit's mostly other people saying this... and they're right. Futhermore, he's been constantly saying that "since he already has so many blue roles, the rest might as well claim to him" along with "if I'm mafia you're all screwed". The fact is that there is no real reason why town is screwed if DH knows the blue roles. Is it a major blow to the town? Yes. Can town overcome infiltration of the blue circle? Yes, but its difficult. Don't dismiss the idea that he's mafia just because he knows things. Vote based on who is mafia, don't excuse someone just because they appear valuable. DH wants you to think he's valuable. Yeah, I'm valuable as a town leader. I think pretty much everyone agrees after Insane Mafia. Watch what happened after I was hit: the town completely fell apart without my leadership and were sheeped by mafia into doing everything they say. I'll be damned if that happens again. This is a pretty blatant fraud. Even his circle seems to believe him. But in the event that you prefer to follow someone who has been completely shady since the beginning of the game and want to lynch me, then go ahead. Town doesn't deserve a win if you keep sheeping and using bad logic. So let me make this post simple so you can see that it's actually terrible: -if dh is mafia we can still easily win he gave his information to others so even if hes town who cares others have his information and he might maybe be godfather and we can still win because we can "it's difficult" but we can do it because we can (no reasoning or plan provided) -drh isn't valuable he wants you to think a player who knows almost all roles and has great leadership skills is valuable OMG propaganda This DH situation is not logical. Think it over hard if you really care about this game. your post isn't logical | ||
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On December 03 2010 15:18 JimboSilvers wrote: Just as predicted, your post is useless. I read the part where you went through my posts line by line. Your analysis is flawed everywhere and i defended myself. The post is here. Strangely, you decide to ignore that post yet post your own defense. And no, I do not consider this post responding to my defense. I consider it as YOU DEFENDING against my attacks. Your mantra is an attempt to lynch me without justification. If you were truly town you'd be trying to win support and convince the town, not run around yelling the same empty statements over and over again. You're not ignoring everything I say, you're just ignoring the things that don't fit your argument. Town should reflect and analyze. Not rush on forward following someone who can't respond to a defense. On December 02 2010 12:13 DoctorHelvetica wrote: You misunderstood the last part. I didn't format the post correctly so that part with the PM was part of my analysis of annul, it had nothing to do with you. I'd rather lynch Radfield today, but I am requesting for the vigilante to hit you tonight. And of course you can't consider that I'm simply a misguided townie? Your defensiveness is off the charts scummy. nope.avi.exe.rtf.tiff.jpg | ||
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On December 03 2010 15:18 JimboSilvers wrote: Just as predicted, your post is useless. I read the part where you went through my posts line by line. Your analysis is flawed everywhere and i defended myself. The post is here. Strangely, you decide to ignore that post yet post your own defense. And no, I do not consider this post responding to my defense. I consider it as YOU DEFENDING against my attacks. Your mantra is an attempt to lynch me without justification. If you were truly town you'd be trying to win support and convince the town, not run around yelling the same empty statements over and over again. You're not ignoring everything I say, you're just ignoring the things that don't fit your argument. Town should reflect and analyze. Not rush on forward following someone who can't respond to a defense. No it isn't. I explained what my mantra means. we can think about all the possible reverse psychology scenarios and get nowhere or we can lynch scummy players and win the game. that's what it means. don't tell me and the town what my words mean, I'll do that thanks. this is starting to get surreally absurd. I'll talk more about why the vig should hit youngminii (we either lynch him and vig you or lynch you and vig him, I don't care which) when I decide I'm done arguing with you (when it gets to the point that we're both saying the same things over and over) | ||
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how is it absurd to say "i am the authority on what the things I say mean and not others" how the fuck can you say I never responded when I responded to literally all of your big posts | ||
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On December 04 2010 01:19 Kavdragon wrote: Ok, Jimbo, DrH. This is getting to the spammy. REGARDLESS of who is right, it is hurting the town. If you want to defend yourself, don’t spam the thread with a defence of yourself that will doubtlessly be refuted by someone, ACT. Start posting things that will help the town, and stop cluttering up the board. I’d drop it for now. DrH doesn’t get all the votes for the town, the attacks and defences are publicly posted, let the town decide. In general, if you want to defend yourself, I think that it is infinitely better to post NEW things that are unarguably pro-town, not spam the board with arguments. It's a win-win for town. I agree. I'm done talking to JimboSilvers. We should not lynch Radfield today. JimboSilvers is a much stronger suspect and I'd rather give RF the benefit of the doubt to survive through the night, possibly to be checked. If the vig hits youngminii then we'll know 100% if ym is mafia or not (it's as good as a DT check) Because he claimed vet, if he survives the night then he isn't mafia. If he dies tonight then he is. If he fakeclaimed and he's actually townie/vig or some shit then he has a lot of explaining to do to me. I'll be passing on my analysis to kavdragon and some other players to start the discussion of lynches tomorrow. I'm uncomfortable that people are trying to shift the obvious vote from jimbosilvers and keep it onto radfield atm and it isn't coming from players that I'm particularly confident are aligned with the town either. | ||
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On December 04 2010 02:36 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Helvetica: How are you so sure that there's a vig out there? The OP states that all roles may or may not be used. Since one DT died and two medics did as well, I doubt there'll be that many blue roles left. You claim to have access to a DT and a confirmed veteran, but how sure are you that they're town? Could it just be a mafia ploy? No news about a new confirmed townie either. Also, why is there a bandwagon on Radfield going? From what I've read, the major suspect is Jimbo right now. I'm not very confident in Helvetica but at this point it seems like we have little choice. Because of the immediacy of the DT claim I'm inclined to believe it is true and in a 30 person game 2 DT's is quite normal. Perhaps it is quite possible there is no vig, but in that case there are certainly 2 vets meaning youngminii is probably telling the truth. There may even be 2 vigs. Because YM is "the vet" I asked him to claim DT and announce the result of the DT check but he ignored me completely and instead tried to turn a bandwagon around on me. Good one eh? | ||
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The person who was checked did not return a mafia alignment but was not added to the circle. It was Glasse and he returned the result green townie but I believe he is very likely the chaos ensuant. | ||
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So the fact that youngminii has been unable to capitalize on his role at all makes me suspicious. | ||
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you could be the godfather but I really just can't understand why you would behave the way you do if you are pro-town. if that is the case and you are indeed a green townie then I'm not really sure where to start telling you how to improve your play not spamming would be one thing explaining why you accuse people of scum might be another you did the same thing in insane mafia where you just kept saying I'm scum over and over and never ever said why and you ignored all posts asking you not to keep spamming am I missing a piece of the puzzle or do you just post without thinking | ||
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Maybe he's singling them out on purpose to throw Amber[LighT] off? Node has some suspicious posts and ym is uber suspicious as well. 1 veteran in a 30 person game is pretty common so it is critical CRITICAL the vig hits youngminii tonight. Critical. So we know for sure the following roles exist (confirmed by DT or death): hardened soldier healer witch hunter mad hatter may or may not exist: paranoid villager It is rare there is no vig role in a game, even with mad hatters. I can not know this is the case unless the last people who have yet to claim claim to me. Until then I'm depending on a vig hit on ym to confirm his alignment. If I don't even KNOW that there is a vig that's not possible. If no vig claims to me then there is no choice really except to lynch him. | ||
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On December 04 2010 03:49 Kavdragon wrote: So...Was he town? Care to share any useful information on his play style in Insane mafia? Actually he was a traitor but iirc he didn't get his alignment change until much later in the game. I forgot there was even a third party in Insane because I was hit before it became a real issue. His playstyle: spam uselessly for a long time accuse me over and over of being scum saying little more than "i think you're scum" "drh is scum" "lynch drh" uses his broadcast ability (which allows him to add a small message to the day post) to say "drh is lying and he's red) spams more When he was boogeyman in haunted he played calm and smartly. He was useful and was able to track important targets and came close to getting the information needed to trap annul in his lies and maybe even win the game for town. In Haunted Mafia I was the mod, in Insane Mafia I was the quote/unquote "town leader" (mayor role and a semi-useless blue role) and mafia all came out of the woodworks to get me lynched. JimboSilvers is playing like Coagulation did or Pandain to a slightly worse degree (at least pandain contributed something other than reactionary defense). Radfield is playing a little bit like Ace, separating himself from other mafia players and making weak easy bandwagons/contributing nothing until he is pressured to. However I'm starting to feel with JS and Radfield it might be one or the other, it's very rare bandwagons get split like this between two mafia. So if JS survives I may want to DT check radfield although it's safe to say it's probably best to wait until the godfather is lynched. At this point I'm thinking youngminii is the godfather. His claim was immediate but he didn't claim until after the day when the godfather would have been chosen. The timing was off and he hasn't utilized his role at all. Veteran imo is the best role for a godfather to choose as well. | ||
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Critical points for townies to consider: -mafia goal to save a fellow mafia is not direct defense but split bandwagon or redirection -don't push the bandwagon back onto radfield -if js is lynched and flips mafia then it is likely he was bussed and many mafia voted for him -if js is lynched and flips town then the mafia camp is likely centered around Radfield -MIA players who can't be allowed to slip through the cracks: artanis, pandain, protactinium, southrawrea to an extent -it's critical that the last 4 people roleclaim to me via PM, i need to confirm that a vig exists -if you want to consider an alternative target (ie: jimbosilvers behavior could be that of a bad/misled townie who truly believes I am scum, i've seen people react like this before and end up town) then lynch youngminii instead That's the basics that I want to get out. Also look at overreactions to lynches. People going"NOOOOOOOOO" when a townie dies or "HAHAHA YEAH FUCK U MAFIA" when ghrur/brownbear died. Some townies do that but at least one other mafia will behave in this fashion. Because some mafia have roleclaimed to me (number of people who have not roleclaimed lower than remaining mafia count) then that means it is possible ALL mafia have roleclaimed to me. Why wouldn't they all just rc townie or some bullshit role because they would know I'd be more suspicious of people who didn't roleclaim. I am willing to do this: lynch youngminii DT check jimbosilvers JimboSilvers is a person who hasn't roleclaimed to me and his defense is so sloppy and bad that it would certainly be the easy wagon. He definitely wouldn't be the godfather either. Just some things to think about. You can PM me at any time and I'll respond on my phone but I can't do things like quote/spoiler/bold/etc. so keep it simple. | ||
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its too late now. if/when js flips town i guess im to blame. doubt ill survive to day 4 when it matters anyway. | ||
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But it's essentially over now. | ||
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On December 04 2010 10:26 Pandain wrote: VOTE YOUNGMINII WE GOT THIS stop | ||
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i would have raged with the fury of 1 million suns can the vig fucking claim to me now or do you still think im mafia | ||
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I knew what I was doing T_T I got u lynched brah | ||
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not much though, just a few hours delayed | ||
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I am putting the responsibility on Kavdragon to continue scumhunting. He is literally the only other townie I've seen in this game with a proactive and analytical attitude. My town circle has been impotent thus far as far as actions in the thread and there are some things I need to reevaluate. I'll be reading everything from JimboSilvers now. Only 1 person has yet to roleclaim to me. JS never roleclaimed and he was mafia so there was clearly no mass agreement that they would all claim townie or something (smart). So I've ditched the idea that this person can not be scum. If they are not the vig then I can only assume the vig role does not exist as a townie would have no motivation at this point to lie about their role as vig when it is so clear and obvious that I am town aligned and when I have made it very clear knowing a vig is vital to the success and survival of town through this game. I have a lot of discussion to do tonight and not a lot of time to do it. It will be done behind closed doors as I believe a policy of in thread silence is the best for the town during the night. Don't reveal any information publicly at this time. Mafia choose your hits wisely, I've set all the information up in public so that you will fail. Although I guess it didn't stop you from succeeding last night either. | ||
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On November 29 2010 12:41 JimboSilvers wrote: Ghrur flipping mafia definitely makes me think mafia were intervening here. If you look closely at the vote list, Ghrur already has a vote down for Pandain early in the game. He’s not under pressure for modkills. Yet he changes votes at the last minute. Why would he need to do this if he was mafia? I don’t think there’s no reason to do this if Kenpachi is town, because this puts more pressure on him for being the deciding and final vote for BrownBear. I don’t feel like Ghrur’s behavior fits if Kenpachi is town. Way too risky and for no reward. Furthermore, if mafia were involved, youngminii and node are all on the right side of things. But… First off, I think its suspicious that Ghrur wants us to focus on the Kenpachi vote list. Ghrur suggests that we should assume mafia knew BB was mafia. But its clear BB was afk the whole game, so theres no reason for mafia to think BB is the CE. Ghrur’s statement makes no sense, so I think its safe to assume mafia did not know BB was traitor. Ghrur’s plea for us to look at Kenpachi’s votelist is nonsensical. If Node and Youngminii are mafia, it doesn’t make sense for the vote to be that close, given that we know Ghrur is mafia. Ghrur’s deciding vote doesn’t make sense if mafia are on both sides of the vote and the vote is that close. I think this PM is just a red herring. Unless Kenpachi flips green, theres no indication why Node and Youngminii are mafia even if they’re lurking. A lot of people have been lurking this game, and one has already flipped blue. What I like is that JimboSilvers had tried to push the point that "the ghrur pms are inconclusive" yet soft defends the shit out of node and youngminii with them. if JS is mafia and node/youngminii are town there is ZERO reason to do this especially considering what a big threat a player as good as youngminii can be. ym is the kind of mafia player active behind the scenes in irc directing others and not active in the thread. this makes me even more suspicious. | ||
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On December 04 2010 12:38 Nemesis wrote: Hi guys, I've just entered the game. Anyone care to enlighten me what the person I replaced have been doing all game? I've been reading through the thread beforehand and I have to say that this game is hilarious with the amount of roleclaims in here (Half the players have roleclaimed I think). And it was pretty obvious at that point that Jimbo and youngminii were scum. The question is as to who else could possible be scum. Everybody except 1 actually. | ||
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1. When I told medics to protect you I had both medics already claimed to me and told them not to do so. 2. I sent you this PM which you ignored completely titled "post" I'm the DT, I checked Glasse and he is green. the dt checked glasse last night but you need to take the fall Telling you to post that you are the dt and that u checked glasse. 3. Usually there is only 1 vet in games even larger than 30. It is pretty common. There is nothing wrong with it per se but it is not unusual for there to be just 1 vet while it would be extremely unusual for there to be just 1 DT or 1 mad hatter. NT though | ||
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I've gone out of my way to imply that you are the DT to see if mafia takes the bait and hits you. Just so you know. I thought if you wouldn't make some use of your role, I would. Anywho it's time for me to release the tiger from the cage and do some down and dirty scumhunting. you are the vet, you should start playing like it. a vet shouldn't be under the radar. draw attention to yourself. make mafia think you're blue. But of course that would make me look good so you'd never tell anyone I said this. really think about it. If you're town and I'm town like in DLYV you might just want to never scumhunt again. You think I bussed jimbosilvers just to get the vig to waste a hit on the vet? l o l | ||
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rol send me roles? | ||
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To be fair it's pretty damn unlucky to check the godfather on night 1 and use that as the basis of starting a circle. But live and learn right? | ||
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On December 08 2010 10:21 Incognito wrote: This is a textbook example of how town circles can go wrong. So was TL Mafia XXX. So was TL Mafia XXVIII. The list goes on. Regardless, town and mafia both played a mediocre game. And when both sides play a mediocre game, that usually means the mafia wins. DH was the only person reasonably able to do anything. Mafia succeeded at infiltrating the town circle and thought the game was over by then. As seen from Day 3, clearly, it was not. Mafia played a passive game and were weak in the thread. But maybe they didn't have to be since town was also weak there too. and haunted mafia where annul raped the town through the town circle | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
After this and Insane I've decided that coordination of blue roles is a negligible advantage to town compared to simple post analysis and scumhunting. Watching Experimental Mafia fall apart confirmed that. Town focused on roleclaims, who was what, and clues pointing toward role descriptions and almost no time focusing on actual scumhunting and they got destroyed for it. Once I realized I was going about the game the wrong way and tried to switch play styles, the damage was done. I actually feel a bit embarrassed for the way this game has turned out but I can only try to improve in the future. | ||
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