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**First draft. I'll update this continuously over the next few days**
The Mafia Manifesto: Winning As Scum![[image loading]](http://www.scum.cc/scum.png)
Table of Contents
- Introduction:
- Game setups that favor scum
- Knowing your strengths and knowing your goals
- The Art of Trickery:
- The difference between Town/Anti-town/Scum and blending in
- The myth about scum tells
- Shadowing/Parity of other players - fitting in with town
- Double Shield: Townies playing anti-town and/or cluesless townies: keep them alive or kill them?
- How to decide who to kill.
- Denial of Information
- Using the metagame against Townies and crushing their mistakes
- Random Voting
- The Art of Arguing:
- What is logic?
- Letting logical fallacies go through and how they win you the game
- How to read arguments: Premises and conclusions, Deductive and Inductive arguments
- Misuse of terms
- Speaking for dead townies and why you should never do it
- Gut reads and why they are your worst enemy and best friend
- Convincing one player vs convincing the town
- How to pick arguments apart
- Answering questions - with a question
- The Art of Staying Alive:
- Taking responsibility
- Acting like a blue role
- Who's responsible for a lynch?
- Killing players vs killing roles
- Play like you are scum hunting
Introduction
Throughout out the 5,6 or however many years I've been playing Mafia I've seen a lot of play styles as Scum that have impressed me. When first starting out I used to get caught as scum because I only had a limited grasp of what it took to REALLY win as scum. I'm not talking about winning 1 out of every 3 games - I'm talking winning so convincingly that by the time the game is over no one is sure of who makes up the entire scum team. This guide will give you some insight into how my Scum play in Mafia has evolved over the course of time and why I just don't take people who say "I knew you were scum" seriously. Remember just like in real life - results and actions speak volumes.
This is not the only way to look at scum play. There are other ways of playing and thinking of Scum that I may outline in the future. This is just one example of a few I've tried and I've found the best success with.
Also remember it's OK to lose as Scum. It took me at least 10+ games as Scum to finally put everything together consistently. The worst thing you can do is make excuses on other people. It is a TEAM game. You must play for the Team if you want to win. Learn from your mistakes and you'll be better in no time.
Game Setups Favoring Scum
When a host creates a game they usually want all parties involved to have an equal chance of winning. There are a few choices in setups that will help you most of the time and you should smile a bit when you see them: your job will be a little easier.
Majority Lynch voting rules: If your Scum team has very persuasive players or the Town has impulsive voters this will favor you a lot. It makes the game move faster than a deadline enforced lynch and faster games favor you. The less time the town has to decide on important issues and talk the better for your team. You can force mistakes faster and if the Town isn't good at going back to piece together posts the blame for the lynch might miss you. Even better if a townie "caused the lynch" (more on this later) you get to point it out and have some fun.
Low information roles: If you are in a setup with low amounts of informative roles (Cop/Tracker/Watcher) then you have an advantage over the town. Remember at the start of the game you are in control because of this little nugget: Scum has more information than town. With these annoying roles in the game you have to work harder.
Theme games/weird rule sets: In these kinds of games Scum not only knows more information than the town, but everyone is kind of clueless at first to just how the game will work. Let the town debate about what works and what doesn't, chime in a little bit or lead them down the wrong path and crush them at night.
Absence of day killing roles: This is a double edged sword because it hurts the town too. Sadly in a game with multiple day vigilantes they've got more numbers so why do they care. The real problem with day killing roles isn't strictly their ability to put you 6 feet under: It's WHEN they can hit. I've seen far too many instances where Scum was arguing with a townie and "winning" the town over, a shot is fired, Scum dies and everything goes to hell. The reason? As Scum you tend to plan ahead of time. Nothing sucks more than some random element like a day vigi hitting an ally in the middle of an important argument. Votes start moving, role claims start coming in, townies get confirmed and Scum tears start falling. Unlike night time you have no control over this.
Of course this isn't concrete. In some setups you actually want a day killing role. Low player games are good for this. Like wise a game with a lot of town day killing power but clueless townies doesn't hurt you that much.
Knowing your strengths and knowing your goals
This doesn't always need to be discussed but as your Scum team is formed you should have an idea about what each member is capable of doing. Here are some qualities that make for a good scum team:
players are good at debating
chaotic players that aren't obvious
obvious scum to the point of destroying the entire game (the easiest to lynch but the hardest to find a trail after they die)
disruptive posters
players that incite anger and emotion
quiet/lurking players that avoid the modkill threshhold
shadowing players (more on this later)
There are probably more characteristics that make good scum but these are the essential strengths. Note that while it is obvious that something like being a disruptive lurking poster should get you lynched it's HOW you do it that earns a win. By the end of this article you'll see how.
As for your goals it's simple: to win. The way to win isn't always straightforward though. However there are 3 things as scum you should always do. These are almost unbreakable rules:
1.)Deny information - never give the town a damn thing. Whatever you know keep it yourself unless it furthers your win condition. Don't volunteer it if you don't have to. Don't even talk about it. If you are about to be lynched and the town asks you for information evaluate if you REALLY think it'll save you. It won't? Die without saying a word. Don't talk about anything. Don't talk to anyone unless it's to taunt them and make them emotional. They can't find your allies if you don't give them a clue.
2.) Play to win, survive to play - the longer the game goes on, the better the odds for the town. They still can't win unless you're dead. Play like you aren't just in the game to survive to the end. Play like if you were town with nothing to lose: you are so pro-town the scum have to get rid of you.This rule gets broken a lot by newer scum players - they try to play like they are a blue role. This thinking can be pretty bad because blue roles usually don't try to play blue - they try to play like vanilla. By trying to do this people start asking you questions and want information. Remember #1 up there? Exactly.
3.) Don't lie, and if you do don't get caught. If you get caught make the town pay dearly - this is one of the rules that if you master you'll win a lot of games off of alone. Many people mistakenly believe that all scum lie. This is furthest from the truth. Scum don't have to lie - they just don't even need to say it in the first place. You can easily win the a game just by acting like a town player would and remember: Town players never really have to lie. The main time as scum you need to lie is a forced roleclaim and even then you can twist your words to pull off some epic stuff without outright lying. Some of the most ridiculous claims, like Caller claiming he was a bus driver was an outright lie but it was worded with so much "proof" and crazy explanations of his previous behavior everyone just got lost and couldn't untangle the lie.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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you mean make up shit thats so unbelievable that nobody would believe it?
or do you mean bus L day one?
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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No I mean destroying your shit so bad you had to afk yourself out of the game.
and the least you could do is get your terms right: I didn't bus L day one - we aren't on the same team so I can't throw him under the bus. I've got a special section for townies that use terms they don't understand. Easy to destroy players like you.
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On June 28 2010 13:54 Ace wrote:
No I mean destroying your shit so bad you had to afk yourself out of the game.
and the least you could do is get your terms right: I didn't bus L day one - we aren't on the same team so I can't throw him under the bus. I've got a special section for townies that use terms they don't understand. Easy to destroy players like you.
i wasn't talking about that game ze
that game i was mostly focused on trying to get L killed before I got lolthundered
i'm talking about games in general
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yeah if it's based on that last game it's hope bad townies make bad arguments and 80% of the game goes afk
but stuff like this is always good
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Fuck yall neggia, if i had my way with you...
no sorry lol, theres just ALOT to go into about this sbject, and people are just going to learn it as they go along, but i cant wait to see what you post homes.
pm if you wanna drink in the city lol
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Ok the guide is updated with the Introduction. I'll be adding more in over the next 24 hours.
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The Best Way I found to tell if Ace is Scum
Ace turns against me. The end. He did it last game and he did it in mini mafia II. But now I'm going to make this tell invalid since Ace now knows! Ace if you ever tried to get me lynched when you weren't mafia, please find it and prove me wrong because I'm too lazy to search for a time where this statement is false.
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It depends. If I think you're one of the weakest players in the game and I'm scum I probably would.
That is not the actual tell though.
The actual tell to see if I personally was scum was to check my stance:
Pro-town I used to always say do not kill anyone unless we are 100% sure. Players forgot a lot of the games where I defended players because of shoddy evidence so many times.
Scum-Ace just says well if you guys wanna kill someone go ahead but I'll put the pressure on the weakest players in the game.
Of course these tells are now slightly invalid because I've done both actions in Town and Scum roles. But when I get to the myth about scum tells everything will be clear. In general you shouldn't use tells as a basis for your argument. You need some concrete actions to hold scum responsible for first.
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well it should be pretty implicit that when a player knows what a so-called tell does that obviously it's not going to work.
For instance, there's the stupidly obvious "Why me = fry me" "tell," where a player who asks why he/she is being lynched is scummy. It should be pretty obvious that idiot townies will do this too: thus this is a null tell. However, as mafia, I will not hesitate to use it to beat on somebody.
Then there's virtually any tells that are out in the public. While more newbie scum may trip up on these tells, players whom are more experienced already know these tells and will do their best to avoid them to seem like town.
Have you noticed how the so-called "veteran" players aren't dying as much early on lately? 
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People been making me mafia so often lately I don't remember how to play town T_T.
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United States2186 Posts
I'm glad you're writing this, we've needed detailed guides for awhile and all of us have been too lazy or uninspired to write one. Getting it stickied would be nice or at the very least let's keep it bumped.
One thing I hope you'll delve into is how to control the game atmosphere and how to do it without major backlash. Most mafia players post (or don't post at all for the same purpose) simply to hide themselves instead of trying to fulfill their team's objectives. Others will sometimes push too far and get too much attention on themselves, thus getting quickly outed.
i,e I remember looking at the TMM game day 1 and thinking 'Ace is doing a good job of directing the flow of the game for his team while keeping himself just out of the main spotlight.' The town was getting led by Ace but they didn't realize it and just ended up fighting amongst themselves. Which of course is the ideal mafia scenario  .
And yeah 'tells' are pretty stupid in general. Rules of thumb about behaviors/mindests are good shortcuts to finding mafia (i,e newbie mafia players tend to overemphasize confusion or innocents will not care about how guilty they look) but if someone is raving about 'omg scumtell!1!!' you should probably run the other direction.
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On June 28 2010 23:11 Ver wrote:I'm glad you're writing this, we've needed detailed guides for awhile and all of us have been too lazy or uninspired to write one. Getting it stickied would be nice or at the very least let's keep it bumped. One thing I hope you'll delve into is how to control the game atmosphere and how to do it without major backlash. Most mafia players post (or don't post at all for the same purpose) simply to hide themselves instead of trying to fulfill their team's objectives. Others will sometimes push too far and get too much attention on themselves, thus getting quickly outed. i,e I remember looking at the TMM game day 1 and thinking 'Ace is doing a good job of directing the flow of the game for his team while keeping himself just out of the main spotlight.' The town was getting led by Ace but they didn't realize it and just ended up fighting amongst themselves. Which of course is the ideal mafia scenario . And yeah 'tells' are pretty stupid in general. Rules of thumb about behaviors/mindests are good shortcuts to finding mafia (i,e newbie mafia players tend to overemphasize confusion or innocents will not care about how guilty they look) but if someone is raving about 'omg scumtell!1!!' you should probably run the other direction.
Yes this is what I wanted to get at in the myth about scumtells section. We sometimes make the mistake of saying "you did this last time you were scum" and don't take into account certain things: different game, different players, different information, an entirely different scenario. The ideal way to catch scum is to use whats going on in the current game. Like you stated they are good for pointing you in the right direction but they should never be the meat of your argument.
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Thanks for the guide Ace :D
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Well I personally think it's much easier to play as mafia. When I played as mafia in BM's LAMM, all I did was pretend I was town, and analyze other people and see if they seemed scummy. This includes my partner.
Basically my mentality was, if I try to play as if I'm a town, then there really isn't anything town can do to catch me being scummy. I act the exact same way as everyone else, and I trust that someone else will screw up more than me (BrownBear in that case).
So like, screw strategizing or whatever, I just play town and it works okay.
I find that playing on town side is much harder because I need to catch people rather than just blending in.
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On June 29 2010 02:48 Korynne wrote:
Well I personally think it's much easier to play as mafia. When I played as mafia in BM's LAMM, all I did was pretend I was town, and analyze other people and see if they seemed scummy. This includes my partner.
Basically my mentality was, if I try to play as if I'm a town, then there really isn't anything town can do to catch me being scummy. I act the exact same way as everyone else, and I trust that someone else will screw up more than me (BrownBear in that case).
So like, screw strategizing or whatever, I just play town and it works okay.
I find that playing on town side is much harder because I need to catch people rather than just blending in.
Being mafia last game (TMMM) was such a hassle to me. I went into that game with a townie mindset ("alright, finally I get to relax and spam and troll. yesss.") And then it's like, "you're mafia". -___-. did some trolling anyway cuz I was bored, lol.
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This is good, not only because it tells people how to play mafia, but it also gives newer players some insight on what to look for when they're town.
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On June 29 2010 02:48 Korynne wrote:
Well I personally think it's much easier to play as mafia. When I played as mafia in BM's LAMM, all I did was pretend I was town, and analyze other people and see if they seemed scummy. This includes my partner.
Basically my mentality was, if I try to play as if I'm a town, then there really isn't anything town can do to catch me being scummy. I act the exact same way as everyone else, and I trust that someone else will screw up more than me (BrownBear in that case).
So like, screw strategizing or whatever, I just play town and it works okay.
I find that playing on town side is much harder because I need to catch people rather than just blending in.
Yep. A lot of the times as Scum one of the things you can do is play the "Why me if that guy/girl over there is doing the same thing?". It's a hard argument to defeat because it's based off of actions and not motives - if the accuser doesn't know your motives or doesn't steer the conversation towards it you'll escape the hangman's noose.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On June 29 2010 03:57 BrownBear wrote:
This is good, not only because it tells people how to play mafia, but it also gives newer players some insight on what to look for when they're town.
It's a good start, but in the end of the day, people have vastly different playstyles. Not everyone adheres to what might be considered standard play. Most of it still lies in your judgment.
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And after everyone reads and knows it, and knows everyone else knows it
it can just make a higher level for metagames
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On June 29 2010 17:27 Divinek wrote:
And after everyone reads and knows it, and knows everyone else knows it
it can just make a higher level for metagames
I'm glad Chill does not have access to this forum!
Edit: or does he...
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that's a proper use of the word... well sorta
i thought of rewording it so it makes more sense, but it makes it easier for you to metagame yourself into making different decisions based on what you know and they know you know think you know that they know how you'll know what you know, right
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I hate it when people tell me I'm saying something that's "obviously scummy." It's not like scum and town have different goals in the thread in terms of appearing scummy. Like it's never, oh, you're not contributing positively or something, it's just like omg that one thing you said that's such a scum tell.
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Nothing is obvious whenyou dont know something for certain.
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On June 29 2010 02:53 DarthThienAn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2010 02:48 Korynne wrote:
Well I personally think it's much easier to play as mafia. When I played as mafia in BM's LAMM, all I did was pretend I was town, and analyze other people and see if they seemed scummy. This includes my partner.
Basically my mentality was, if I try to play as if I'm a town, then there really isn't anything town can do to catch me being scummy. I act the exact same way as everyone else, and I trust that someone else will screw up more than me (BrownBear in that case).
So like, screw strategizing or whatever, I just play town and it works okay.
I find that playing on town side is much harder because I need to catch people rather than just blending in. Being mafia last game (TMMM) was such a hassle to me. I went into that game with a townie mindset ("alright, finally I get to relax and spam and troll. yesss.") And then it's like, "you're mafia". -___-. did some trolling anyway cuz I was bored, lol.
So we should kill you day1/night1 instead of Radfield?
...Thanks for the guide Ace! You taught me Darth must die!
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On June 29 2010 21:07 Korynne wrote:
I hate it when people tell me I'm saying something that's "obviously scummy." It's not like scum and town have different goals in the thread in terms of appearing scummy. Like it's never, oh, you're not contributing positively or something, it's just like omg that one thing you said that's such a scum tell.
i love the ol' "he's not contributing" scum tell wink wink ^^
On June 29 2010 22:43 bumatlarge wrote:
Nothing is obvious whenyou dont know something for certain.
Yea but calling it obvious is always good for persuasion
On June 29 2010 23:44 ~OpZ~ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2010 02:53 DarthThienAn wrote:On June 29 2010 02:48 Korynne wrote:
Well I personally think it's much easier to play as mafia. When I played as mafia in BM's LAMM, all I did was pretend I was town, and analyze other people and see if they seemed scummy. This includes my partner.
Basically my mentality was, if I try to play as if I'm a town, then there really isn't anything town can do to catch me being scummy. I act the exact same way as everyone else, and I trust that someone else will screw up more than me (BrownBear in that case).
So like, screw strategizing or whatever, I just play town and it works okay.
I find that playing on town side is much harder because I need to catch people rather than just blending in. Being mafia last game (TMMM) was such a hassle to me. I went into that game with a townie mindset ("alright, finally I get to relax and spam and troll. yesss.") And then it's like, "you're mafia". -___-. did some trolling anyway cuz I was bored, lol. So we should kill you day1/night1 instead of Radfield? ...Thanks for the guide Ace! You taught me Darth must die!
-_- why must I die? I'm just saying that I was mafia'd out last game lol =P. Being mafia in XXVI was tiring. I only joined TMMM to troll T_T
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Youre cursed, and I only called yor team out when i looked at the teams left and asked myself "why would I leave them alive"
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On June 30 2010 02:01 bumatlarge wrote:
Youre cursed, and I only called yor team out when i looked at the teams left and asked myself "why would I leave them alive"
o.O Radfield/Korynne's a solid team. I'm not sure I would've gone for that argument even if I was town. The first lynch and first night kill teams were nowhere near noob.
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Great thread idea, but I think you missed one of the most important features: communication with your fellow mafiosos. You are on a team together, it is a team win or loss. You should be talking together as a team to help out everyone. Far too often I see teams of mafia who let everyone just post on their own, and that inevitably leads to slipups, usually with either the most prominent/ active players, or the most inexperienced ones. However, it is really important for everyone to put aside their egos and just talk to each other. Make sure you are all on the same page.
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On June 29 2010 22:43 bumatlarge wrote:
Nothing is obvious whenyou dont know something for certain.
Plenty is obvious when you have 4-5 games of the same format and the players repeat the same differing patterns depending on their role.
Was pretty blatant in our first few games, where certain players, when green, would go 100% afk and not say anything. iirc, vivi would only post in the main thread if he was mafia or blue, which made it pretty easy to shoot him if he was blue, and which made him pretty easy to out if he was red.
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On June 29 2010 23:44 ~OpZ~ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2010 02:53 DarthThienAn wrote:On June 29 2010 02:48 Korynne wrote:
Well I personally think it's much easier to play as mafia. When I played as mafia in BM's LAMM, all I did was pretend I was town, and analyze other people and see if they seemed scummy. This includes my partner.
Basically my mentality was, if I try to play as if I'm a town, then there really isn't anything town can do to catch me being scummy. I act the exact same way as everyone else, and I trust that someone else will screw up more than me (BrownBear in that case).
So like, screw strategizing or whatever, I just play town and it works okay.
I find that playing on town side is much harder because I need to catch people rather than just blending in. Being mafia last game (TMMM) was such a hassle to me. I went into that game with a townie mindset ("alright, finally I get to relax and spam and troll. yesss.") And then it's like, "you're mafia". -___-. did some trolling anyway cuz I was bored, lol. So we should kill you day1/night1 instead of Radfield? ...Thanks for the guide Ace! You taught me Darth must die!
This is why guides such as this and discussions about play are so important. I have been in many gaming communities where I am targeted for my skill. If we bring everyone's level of play up, it'll make the game itself better.
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On June 30 2010 11:39 YellowInk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2010 23:44 ~OpZ~ wrote:On June 29 2010 02:53 DarthThienAn wrote:On June 29 2010 02:48 Korynne wrote:
Well I personally think it's much easier to play as mafia. When I played as mafia in BM's LAMM, all I did was pretend I was town, and analyze other people and see if they seemed scummy. This includes my partner.
Basically my mentality was, if I try to play as if I'm a town, then there really isn't anything town can do to catch me being scummy. I act the exact same way as everyone else, and I trust that someone else will screw up more than me (BrownBear in that case).
So like, screw strategizing or whatever, I just play town and it works okay.
I find that playing on town side is much harder because I need to catch people rather than just blending in. Being mafia last game (TMMM) was such a hassle to me. I went into that game with a townie mindset ("alright, finally I get to relax and spam and troll. yesss.") And then it's like, "you're mafia". -___-. did some trolling anyway cuz I was bored, lol. So we should kill you day1/night1 instead of Radfield? ...Thanks for the guide Ace! You taught me Darth must die! This is why guides such as this and discussions about play are so important. I have been in many gaming communities where I am targeted for my skill. If we bring everyone's level of play up, it'll make the game itself better.
One of the few games where its sometimes nice to hide your skill level. That is, unless you can convince the medics to protect you all the time
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bumatlarge going after me/Ace because our skill level = imba. lol.
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On June 30 2010 09:37 Qatol wrote:
Great thread idea, but I think you missed one of the most important features: communication with your fellow mafiosos. You are on a team together, it is a team win or loss. You should be talking together as a team to help out everyone. Far too often I see teams of mafia who let everyone just post on their own, and that inevitably leads to slipups, usually with either the most prominent/ active players, or the most inexperienced ones. However, it is really important for everyone to put aside their egos and just talk to each other. Make sure you are all on the same page.
good idea, can't believe I forgot to add a full section for it. I've been busy with work so I haven't had the time to frame everything like I really want to but I'll be updating again soon.
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I haven't really followed the recent games, but when I was playing TL players really needed to know how to win as town a lot more.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 29 2010 23:44 ~OpZ~ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2010 02:53 DarthThienAn wrote:On June 29 2010 02:48 Korynne wrote:
Well I personally think it's much easier to play as mafia. When I played as mafia in BM's LAMM, all I did was pretend I was town, and analyze other people and see if they seemed scummy. This includes my partner.
Basically my mentality was, if I try to play as if I'm a town, then there really isn't anything town can do to catch me being scummy. I act the exact same way as everyone else, and I trust that someone else will screw up more than me (BrownBear in that case).
So like, screw strategizing or whatever, I just play town and it works okay.
I find that playing on town side is much harder because I need to catch people rather than just blending in. Being mafia last game (TMMM) was such a hassle to me. I went into that game with a townie mindset ("alright, finally I get to relax and spam and troll. yesss.") And then it's like, "you're mafia". -___-. did some trolling anyway cuz I was bored, lol. So we should kill you day1/night1 instead of Radfield? ...Thanks for the guide Ace! You taught me Darth must die!
The only way you can kill me is if you're mafia Opz. I've yet to be lynched
Great start to the guide Ace, I hope you add more. HP was my first time being mafia, and I really felt like I was just hanging on at the end. I just felt like all the reasons were there to lynch me, and the more I posted the more obvious those reasons became. So my only goal was to be as under the radar as possible.
It was neat watching you in TMMM. Even though I felt like you were mafia(and had it confirmed by Korynne) I had absolutely no idea that YI was the other mafia. It was really well played by all three of you.
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On June 30 2010 11:39 YellowInk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2010 23:44 ~OpZ~ wrote:On June 29 2010 02:53 DarthThienAn wrote:On June 29 2010 02:48 Korynne wrote:
Well I personally think it's much easier to play as mafia. When I played as mafia in BM's LAMM, all I did was pretend I was town, and analyze other people and see if they seemed scummy. This includes my partner.
Basically my mentality was, if I try to play as if I'm a town, then there really isn't anything town can do to catch me being scummy. I act the exact same way as everyone else, and I trust that someone else will screw up more than me (BrownBear in that case).
So like, screw strategizing or whatever, I just play town and it works okay.
I find that playing on town side is much harder because I need to catch people rather than just blending in. Being mafia last game (TMMM) was such a hassle to me. I went into that game with a townie mindset ("alright, finally I get to relax and spam and troll. yesss.") And then it's like, "you're mafia". -___-. did some trolling anyway cuz I was bored, lol. So we should kill you day1/night1 instead of Radfield? ...Thanks for the guide Ace! You taught me Darth must die! This is why guides such as this and discussions about play are so important. I have been in many gaming communities where I am targeted for my skill. If we bring everyone's level of play up, it'll make the game itself better.
You feel Radfield's pain, I see
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Oh man the sticky!
And like, lulz the Radfield Jr. Bearie. =P
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On June 29 2010 21:07 Korynne wrote:
I hate it when people tell me I'm saying something that's "obviously scummy." It's not like scum and town have different goals in the thread in terms of appearing scummy. Like it's never, oh, you're not contributing positively or something, it's just like omg that one thing you said that's such a scum tell.
So how are you meant to find scum if you're not going to analyse posts and see whether or not they seem scummy?
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On June 29 2010 21:07 Korynne wrote:
I hate it when people tell me I'm saying something that's "obviously scummy." It's not like scum and town have different goals in the thread in terms of appearing scummy. Like it's never, oh, you're not contributing positively or something, it's just like omg that one thing you said that's such a scum tell.
not as bad as someone being like 'god i feel you're scum' and that's all they keep saying and trying to get people to vote for you as opposed to logical reasoning or anything concrete
i guess the hardest distinction people have is telling between bad town and bad scum and then next average town and good scum
the first is a verrry hard one for some
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On July 12 2010 12:44 youngminii wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2010 21:07 Korynne wrote:
I hate it when people tell me I'm saying something that's "obviously scummy." It's not like scum and town have different goals in the thread in terms of appearing scummy. Like it's never, oh, you're not contributing positively or something, it's just like omg that one thing you said that's such a scum tell. So how are you meant to find scum if you're not going to analyse posts and see whether or not they seem scummy?
The word "scummy" is just a bad descriptor. You need to spend more time looking past the words and figuring out the objectives of a player's posts.
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On June 30 2010 09:37 Qatol wrote:
Great thread idea, but I think you missed one of the most important features: communication with your fellow mafiosos. You are on a team together, it is a team win or loss. You should be talking together as a team to help out everyone. Far too often I see teams of mafia who let everyone just post on their own, and that inevitably leads to slipups, usually with either the most prominent/ active players, or the most inexperienced ones. However, it is really important for everyone to put aside their egos and just talk to each other. Make sure you are all on the same page.
You beat me to it qatol. the most effective mafia teams i have played on are the ones that regularly chat in IRC/msn and post in a private forum. TL PM's simply are not an effective form of communication, end of story - only use them if your comrades are offline and you need something answered, like "is this post o.k.," or "what if we hit X."
The point about egos is also important. Two incidents I remember in particular, one as mafia one as town: (1) citizen refused to talk with us because he didn't get the GF role; we lost & (2) Chezinu didn't like his mafia team and refused to talk to them; they lost. There are some people here who I suspect may not be able to shelve the ego, though no names shall be uttered 
I'm not sure if any mafia team i've played on has had every one of the players actively communicating, but i think the players that communicate are the ones that live longer.
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On July 13 2010 09:04 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 09:37 Qatol wrote:
Great thread idea, but I think you missed one of the most important features: communication with your fellow mafiosos. You are on a team together, it is a team win or loss. You should be talking together as a team to help out everyone. Far too often I see teams of mafia who let everyone just post on their own, and that inevitably leads to slipups, usually with either the most prominent/ active players, or the most inexperienced ones. However, it is really important for everyone to put aside their egos and just talk to each other. Make sure you are all on the same page. You beat me to it qatol. the most effective mafia teams i have played on are the ones that regularly chat in IRC/msn and post in a private forum. TL PM's simply are not an effective form of communication, end of story - only use them if your comrades are offline and you need something answered, like "is this post o.k.," or "what if we hit X." The point about egos is also important. Two incidents I remember in particular, one as mafia one as town: (1) citizen refused to talk with us because he didn't get the GF role; we lost & (2) Chezinu didn't like his mafia team and refused to talk to them; they lost. There are some people here who I suspect may not be able to shelve the ego, though no names shall be uttered I'm not sure if any mafia team i've played on has had every one of the players actively communicating, but i think the players that communicate are the ones that live longer.
Sadly, holdouts happen. When I was mafia, semioldguy didn't communicate very much at all. However, mafias were larger back then, so it didn't matter quite so much. With the size of games these days, you basically need every member to be on board with the strategy or your chances of winning go down dramatically.
Another caveat of the teamwork element is that mafia members can't be afraid to die if it advances the goals of the team as a whole. I think mafia members are just too afraid to die in general, which probably comes from the "I got a really cool role and don't want to be eliminated from the game" syndrome. When I played as mafia, the reason I came out and started taunting the thread was because Camlito came out of nowhere and nailed like 3 mafia through clues. So we decided to sacrifice me to distract the town. A reverse example that comes to mind is MBH selling out Caller to buy himself another cycle even though Caller wasn't really on anybody's radar at all and MBH was under serious heat. This was a pretty major turning point in the game for that mafia, as the mafia pretty much fell apart after Caller died.
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On July 13 2010 09:04 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
(2) Chezinu didn't like his mafia team and refused to talk to them; they lost.
I thought I didn't like them because they weren't talking to me, except Judge talked to me but he ended up dying earlier. So now you know when I say I don't like them - it's just me complaining since they aren't talking to me. Just look at all my games, I do this as town as well when the person I usually pm stops talking to me, I go to the thread and complain.
Ex: I'm going insane because no one is talking to me. RoL isn't talking to me. Bill Murray is playing solo... Pyrr is playing solo... etc I do this a lot.
Yeah, but I agree communication is very important. I think it is one of the biggest factors that determines if mafia win or not. Everytime I won as mafia we had good communication. Being busy in RL has major impacts in this game, especially when it comes to communication between allies whether your on a mafia team, stuck with someone in a melee, or paired with a lover or mason.
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This doesn't always need to be discussed but as your Scum team is formed you should have an idea about what each member is capable of doing. Here are some qualities that make for a good scum team:
players are good at debating
chaotic players that aren't obvious
obvious scum to the point of destroying the entire game (the easiest to lynch but the hardest to find a trail after they die)
disruptive posters
players that incite anger and emotion
quiet/lurking players that avoid the modkill threshhold
shadowing players (more on this later)
There are probably more characteristics that make good scum but these are the essential strengths. Note that while it is obvious that something like being a disruptive lurking poster should get you lynched it's HOW you do it that earns a win. By the end of this article you'll see how.
In repeated games people tend to have a "stable" personality. Note most of the "types" do not help the town much if they are green/red.
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I think the best mafia team I played on was the first time I was mafia, the Plexa's summer edition.
Communication:
We had a Forum, thanks to motbob for setting it up:
http://allredhere.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=mafia
AND
We had IRC, we used this I believe:
http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=#ESPORTSMAFIA triumph
So we had quick short communication of our though via IRC (good for brainstorming plans, discussing reads on people, team bonding, and last minute vote swapping) and we had the forum to finalize our plans (who we plan to lynch/hit).
Player Variety:
1. motbob - forum creator, good martyr, good IRC buddy, overall good communicator -- a pretty well rounded player.
2. ecomania - good martyr and great IRC buddy
3. chaoser - very good martyr that set suspicion upon townies that supported him. Good IRC
4. TruthBringer - He died early.. I didn't get to know him.. 
5. Chezinu - GF, hit list sender - hides in the shadows b/c GF can't die. Note: the best disguise for GF varies per game. If people just played a game where GF lurked - you might want to be more active. Activity depends on town's reaction and how much fun you want to have.
6. Scamp - He was the bomb! Inactive at first, but he came back in time to make an explosive impact for our team.
7. Pyrr - good infiltrator, he didn't communicate with the rest of us as much. I think it helped his cover that he didn't talk to us as much. Pyrr did do a good job of dropping in and telling us important information he discovered, which helped us greatly when forming hit list. Especially, end game when Pyrr was almost in total control of the game. For infiltrator, communication with mafia members isn't as important early game, but informing teammates about discovered blue roles is important. Whether you snipe these blue roles or let them stay so that they trust your infiltrator in hopes of gaining more information needs to be discussed.
As Qatol mentioned, mafia people need to be willing to die. You need to know that just because you die, doesn't make you a bad player. It is how you die that makes you a bad player. Our martyrs that game created chaos before they died and brought us time by vote swaying (This was when KP was affected by number as mafia players -- this is a good reason some mafia don't want to die, but they need to know some sacrifices are beneficial). Our martyrs gave town little information, there deaths actually aided us by opening up opportunities for our infiltrator to accuse certain people, especially those who supported our mafia brethren. Pyrr did a great job analyzing votes in mafia favor and quoting dead people to aid in lynching other townies.
I know a lot of people want to play the infiltrator role because this person usually gets all the attention post-game, which is well deserved because it takes talent. But people also need to realize that the martyrs served well in their death to aid the scum cause. If you are a new player and are on a mafia team, infiltrator would actually be a good role to play. New players might think they need more experience before making risky moves, but it is the new players that can pulls these moves off the best.
Hit list:
Day 1: Random
Day 2: blue sniping started
Other Days: continued blue sniping and those who were were on the right trail.
Creating a good hit list, requires good communication between your team. For instance, you don't want to kill someone you think you could probably get lynched - except for cases where it was an accident and it totally messes with town and causes chaos and demotivation because town realizes how clueless they are and know that mafia is taunting them. Aside from those cases, the majority of your hits should be thought out. Make sure you get as much input from each mafia member. Some may know/think of things, you didn't consider.
PS: I was just going to make a brief comment about how we had both a forum and IRC in that game, but ended up writing a lot more.. From now on, I think I'm going to try and establish communication within my mafia team because it is always a good investment.
Edit: Also note that having a mafia forum helps a lot for people who are busy with school, work, or live in a different time zone.
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I entirely agree with the need for a forum. IRC-only can easily splinter the team.
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On July 13 2010 23:45 citi.zen wrote:
I entirely agree with the need for a forum. IRC-only can easily splinter the team.
You can make up for not having a forum if you have someone super SUPER active who can relay everything to everyone. We did not have a forum. However, it was a pretty large strain and I agree a forum helps that a lot.
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See: LTT or a mafia team large enough to constantly have 5-8 people in IRC at all times.
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I guess I just don't see the downside to a forum over IRC, unless you are really paranoid about a security leak. It's more structured and facilitates better discussion, in addition to allowing people to contribute/get up to speed whenever they can, as Chez said.
Anyway... this is really nit-picking & ultimately up to each team.
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On July 14 2010 09:19 L wrote:
See: LTT and a mafia team large enough to constantly have 5-8 people in IRC at all times.
Fixed.
On July 14 2010 10:30 citi.zen wrote:
I guess I just don't see the downside to a forum over IRC, unless you are really paranoid about a security leak. It's more structured and facilitates better discussion, in addition to allowing people to contribute/get up to speed whenever they can, as Chez said.
Anyway... this is really nit-picking & ultimately up to each team.
I think it's mostly just a tendency to not use IRC as much as you should if you have a forum. Also, you need someone on the team who knows how to set it up. Regardless, I agree that this is just nitpicking.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Pure IRC doesn't work too well. I've sat in with even some of the smaller recent mafia teams, and there's usually half the members missing, plus you lose out on everything that was discussed. On the other hands, forum boards can be slightly slow, but at least you keep track of all your information. Yeah, a mix is probably the best--IRC for quick planning and speedy reactions to take advantage or prevent disadvantages, and forums for keeping check of your "longer-term" strategies that span a few days.
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Pure forum isnt too hot either, when HALF YOUR TEAM GOES MIA, and ignores your brilliant ideas...
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should write a guide on how to be town instead
being mafia isn't hard
being (good) town is frigging impossible
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I have serious issues playing town, I've been green most of my games and other than talking a lot and random logical things I don't really know what to do. xD
I guess I'll need to learn to read people and stuffs.
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On July 17 2010 04:43 Korynne wrote:
I have serious issues playing town, I've been green most of my games and other than talking a lot and random logical things I don't really know what to do. xD
I guess I'll need to learn to read people and stuffs.
You were fine in the game I played with you. You seemed very innocent most of the game until you went MIA randomly after a while. Just contribute and keep the conversation going and you're doing okay. Learning to read people is icing.
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This got stickied? No wonder I couldn't find it..
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
They'll never catch me as scum!
Because I'll never play as scum!
Also because I don't play.
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On July 23 2010 05:07 flamewheel wrote:
They'll never catch me as scum!
Because I'll never play as scum!
Also because I don't play.
I never see you or Qatol play, did I just happen to be here during a time you were taking a break or do generally never play and prefer to watch?
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On July 24 2010 05:35 rastaban wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 05:07 flamewheel wrote:
They'll never catch me as scum!
Because I'll never play as scum!
Also because I don't play. I never see you or Qatol play, did I just happen to be here during a time you were taking a break or do generally never play and prefer to watch?
he played recently in Incognito's game. Qatol played in Ace's PYP Mafia a couple months ago, but he's generally busy I believe. flamewheel has all the time in the world though.
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On July 24 2010 06:06 DarthThienAn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 05:35 rastaban wrote:On July 23 2010 05:07 flamewheel wrote:
They'll never catch me as scum!
Because I'll never play as scum!
Also because I don't play. I never see you or Qatol play, did I just happen to be here during a time you were taking a break or do generally never play and prefer to watch? he played recently in Incognito's game. Qatol played in Ace's PYP Mafia a couple months ago, but he's generally busy I believe. flamewheel has all the time in the world though.
I played in Ace's Mafia World, Mafia Resurrection, Mafia 4, 5, 7, Smurf Mafia, Mini Mafia I, and PYP Mafia. I also hosted Mafia 8 and co-hosted Mafia 15. However, I am generally pretty busy and just don't have the time to play very often. I participate in most of the balance/setup talks though and still try to at least generally follow the games when I have the time.
Flamewheel has never really played all that much. He stopped playing and started hosting after only playing in like 2-3 games I believe and never really went back to playing regularly.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On July 24 2010 10:23 Qatol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 06:06 DarthThienAn wrote:On July 24 2010 05:35 rastaban wrote:On July 23 2010 05:07 flamewheel wrote:
They'll never catch me as scum!
Because I'll never play as scum!
Also because I don't play. I never see you or Qatol play, did I just happen to be here during a time you were taking a break or do generally never play and prefer to watch? he played recently in Incognito's game. Qatol played in Ace's PYP Mafia a couple months ago, but he's generally busy I believe. flamewheel has all the time in the world though. I played in Ace's Mafia World, Mafia Resurrection, Mafia 4, 5, 7, Smurf Mafia, Mini Mafia I, and PYP Mafia. I also hosted Mafia 8 and co-hosted Mafia 15. However, I am generally pretty busy and just don't have the time to play very often. I participate in most of the balance/setup talks though and still try to at least generally follow the games when I have the time. Flamewheel has never really played all that much. He stopped playing and started hosting after only playing in like 2-3 games I believe and never really went back to playing regularly.
Playing is overrated!
Become a lurker like me and you can surreptitiously gather information on everybody, then jump into a game and save a lot of time!
Hosting >>>>> playing
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On July 25 2010 07:52 flamewheel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 10:23 Qatol wrote:On July 24 2010 06:06 DarthThienAn wrote:On July 24 2010 05:35 rastaban wrote:On July 23 2010 05:07 flamewheel wrote:
They'll never catch me as scum!
Because I'll never play as scum!
Also because I don't play. I never see you or Qatol play, did I just happen to be here during a time you were taking a break or do generally never play and prefer to watch? he played recently in Incognito's game. Qatol played in Ace's PYP Mafia a couple months ago, but he's generally busy I believe. flamewheel has all the time in the world though. I played in Ace's Mafia World, Mafia Resurrection, Mafia 4, 5, 7, Smurf Mafia, Mini Mafia I, and PYP Mafia. I also hosted Mafia 8 and co-hosted Mafia 15. However, I am generally pretty busy and just don't have the time to play very often. I participate in most of the balance/setup talks though and still try to at least generally follow the games when I have the time. Flamewheel has never really played all that much. He stopped playing and started hosting after only playing in like 2-3 games I believe and never really went back to playing regularly. Playing is overrated! Become a lurker like me and you can surreptitiously gather information on everybody, then jump into a game and save a lot of time! Hosting >>>>> playing
The sad thing is, you will never know what happens underground..+ Show Spoiler +Pm Land, where stuff happens that no one knows about or where nothing happens and you can pretend like something happened.. or something like that.
Unless...+ Show Spoiler +..you can read my Pms... Do you have connections with the Mods? + Show Spoiler + Are you Haxor? Ok, we have to be careful with flame here -- Remember, don't play with fire!
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
On July 25 2010 08:54 Chezinu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 07:52 flamewheel wrote:On July 24 2010 10:23 Qatol wrote:On July 24 2010 06:06 DarthThienAn wrote:On July 24 2010 05:35 rastaban wrote:On July 23 2010 05:07 flamewheel wrote:
They'll never catch me as scum!
Because I'll never play as scum!
Also because I don't play. I never see you or Qatol play, did I just happen to be here during a time you were taking a break or do generally never play and prefer to watch? he played recently in Incognito's game. Qatol played in Ace's PYP Mafia a couple months ago, but he's generally busy I believe. flamewheel has all the time in the world though. I played in Ace's Mafia World, Mafia Resurrection, Mafia 4, 5, 7, Smurf Mafia, Mini Mafia I, and PYP Mafia. I also hosted Mafia 8 and co-hosted Mafia 15. However, I am generally pretty busy and just don't have the time to play very often. I participate in most of the balance/setup talks though and still try to at least generally follow the games when I have the time. Flamewheel has never really played all that much. He stopped playing and started hosting after only playing in like 2-3 games I believe and never really went back to playing regularly. Playing is overrated! Become a lurker like me and you can surreptitiously gather information on everybody, then jump into a game and save a lot of time! Hosting >>>>> playing The sad thing is, you will never know what happens underground.. + Show Spoiler +Pm Land, where stuff happens that no one knows about or where nothing happens and you can pretend like something happened.. or something like that. Unless... + Show Spoiler +..you can read my Pms... Do you have connections with the Mods? + Show Spoiler + Are you Haxor? Ok, we have to be careful with flame here -- Remember, don't play with fire!
I have heavy connections with mods!
And banlings.
And cute itw bunnies.
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On July 25 2010 10:07 flamewheel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 08:54 Chezinu wrote:On July 25 2010 07:52 flamewheel wrote:On July 24 2010 10:23 Qatol wrote:On July 24 2010 06:06 DarthThienAn wrote:On July 24 2010 05:35 rastaban wrote:On July 23 2010 05:07 flamewheel wrote:
They'll never catch me as scum!
Because I'll never play as scum!
Also because I don't play. I never see you or Qatol play, did I just happen to be here during a time you were taking a break or do generally never play and prefer to watch? he played recently in Incognito's game. Qatol played in Ace's PYP Mafia a couple months ago, but he's generally busy I believe. flamewheel has all the time in the world though. I played in Ace's Mafia World, Mafia Resurrection, Mafia 4, 5, 7, Smurf Mafia, Mini Mafia I, and PYP Mafia. I also hosted Mafia 8 and co-hosted Mafia 15. However, I am generally pretty busy and just don't have the time to play very often. I participate in most of the balance/setup talks though and still try to at least generally follow the games when I have the time. Flamewheel has never really played all that much. He stopped playing and started hosting after only playing in like 2-3 games I believe and never really went back to playing regularly. Playing is overrated! Become a lurker like me and you can surreptitiously gather information on everybody, then jump into a game and save a lot of time! Hosting >>>>> playing The sad thing is, you will never know what happens underground.. + Show Spoiler +Pm Land, where stuff happens that no one knows about or where nothing happens and you can pretend like something happened.. or something like that. Unless... + Show Spoiler +..you can read my Pms... Do you have connections with the Mods? + Show Spoiler + Are you Haxor? Ok, we have to be careful with flame here -- Remember, don't play with fire! I have heavy connections with mods! And banlings. And cute itw bunnies.
LOLOLOL there is reason why I always provide QuickTopic on the role PM. I can see most of the interaction in every private groups.
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When is the OP going to be updated?
Or has it been updating and I simply haven't noticed.
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Last edit: 2010-06-29 15:44:27
just pm spam ace im sure that'll motivate him and he'll enjoy it
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Biggest thing you need to add to this guide (I don't see it in TOC so I'm assuming it's not being touched on):
Adaptability.
The best scum can adapt on the fly when something does go awry and talk their way out of anything. It's literally the best weapon you can have. It's what gets you to the next phase when your plan that you laid out is completely and utterly fucked over.
The rest of your guide revolves heavily around Occam's Razor.
Also, there comes a point in time where all scum lie. If you're trying to push a mislynch on a townie, at some point, a player will ask "Why are you pushing this lynch?" and the answer has to be "Because I think he is scum." You obviously don't think he is scum, because you know he isn't. But you have to say it.
Some of the best scum players are incredible liars and can make you believe any word that flows from their mouth.
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Tip for Mafia: If your mafia don't create a forum one can easily find, especially in a clue game.
http://tlmafia16.maxforum.org/2010/06/06/day-2/
Tip for Town: Google people's names especially in a clue game!!!
I guess that's why it's a noob game. What ever happened to araav?
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Google is not your best friend, Chezinu.
This is why you create a hidden forum then make it go invisible.
Also to win you play like Ver, I have decided.
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aaaaaaaace has so much updating to do
it's been a month
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been doing lots of work lately, calm down I will eventually finish
Besides the short amounts of discussion this generated so far were more than worth it ^_^
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Gotta give it a password and make your name an anagram or something.
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ummm sorry to bump this but i was trying to learn mafia and came across this thread but found that this was incomplete and was wondering if there was a finished version somewhere?
seeing that this is a pretty old thread i assume it is finished already?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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This thread already contains a basic outline of the winning mindset of a scum player. Blaze is right in that the majority of your usable knowledge is going to come from playing games, because you'll learn how certain players argue, meta, a whole myriad of things that Ace's guide could never incorporate even in its complete form.
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United States2186 Posts
I think things have reached the level where town play is a lot higher than mafia. I've seen plenty of good town play whenever I've looked but not too many expert mafia games (only liar game and wheel of fortune come to mind, and this was mostly individualistic). Clearly the reason for this is the abundance of town guides and lack of mafia ones!!
If you are interested in finishing this ace and want my help let me know.
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I can help too.
I know VE and I were interested in doing it a few months ago and then we kinda just never got around to it.
e: also, I think town play fluctuates between decent and bad, whereas mafia play on the whole is almost always bad.
I think it's just complacency over the last 9-10 months with mafia winning repeatedly by doing nothing (particularly prevalent among newer players)
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Hey What is this. I can't be the best scum player in the world if i only have a guide that is only 1/10th done. Ace can you try to finish this. I wants to improve
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EPT
