|
On April 09 2010 00:36 ~OpZ~ wrote:
Really? Damn...So add JeeJee to my vote for Citizen list...
of course i would vote for citi.zen
look at our track record, the one anti-town player we caught was because his role claim was inconsistent
nikon claiming vet -> nuke reflected -> wtf? -> lynch nikon -> anti-town
citi.zen claiming PGO -> no abilities -> wtf? -> lynch citi.zen -> ???
for the record citi.zen, if you're going to claim a special role in the future, at least make sure you say you have powers that a townie does not.
|
On April 09 2010 01:35 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 01:24 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 00:36 ~OpZ~ wrote:
Really? Damn...So add JeeJee to my vote for Citizen list... of course i would vote for citi.zen look at our track record, the one anti-town player we caught was because his role claim was inconsistent nikon claiming vet -> nuke reflected -> wtf? -> lynch nikon -> anti-town citi.zen claiming PGO -> no abilities -> wtf? -> lynch citi.zen -> ??? for the record citi.zen, if you're going to claim a special role in the future, at least make sure you say you have powers that a townie does not. ROFL - I wasn't even playing when the claim was made, how ca I have been inconsistent? When I started to play and someone asked, I confirmed that I can only nuke those who nuke me. Thanks for paying attention. Anyone want to nuke me? I can pretty much guarantee a draw.
last i checked, you and infund have the same role, and you yourself said you're PGO. are you saying now that infund lied and you're in fact not a PGO? figure out your story already
oh yes, the tod. squirm away! now that you have no chance to actually win, might as well make us lose too right? well, can't fault you there
|
uh okay?
doesn't really answer my question
the fact remains, you, as in citi.zen, not you as in citizen/infundi, claim PGO but without PGO powers (evidently you have plain townie powers instead), then when i say that's inconsistent, you come back with "i didn't claim PGO so it's not being inconsistent!"
huh?
|
oh and for the record, i shouldn't even have to separate you and infundi as in the context of this game you're the same person.
|
wow at haster. you are really doing yourself a disservice.
On April 09 2010 06:28 haster27 wrote:
With ~OpZ~ and Abenson changing his opinion, JeeJee seems to be most detailed post arguing for citizen lynch. Let me rip his arguments to shreds.
Ok
On April 09 2010 06:28 haster27 wrote:
Argument about vote counts
This argument also assumes that entire Mafia players chose to vote for one person three consecutive days. Seriously? I thought the most basic assumption about Mafia voting pattern was that they would try to avoid suspicion by spreading their votes as much as possible. Yes, they were all bandwagon votes, but RoL and Xelin bandwagon had so much steam going into it there was little reason for Mafia to all-in every time. Overall his repeated statement that four of us voted for same person over and over again is WIFOM.
If you're going to throw MS terms around, at least educate yourself in what they mean. Your paragraph just states "they voted together but the first and second rule of mafia is mafia don't vote together, hence this is wrong!"
Newsflash: this is WIFOM.
To clarify, for those that are not as familiar
In Mafia, WIFOM arguments are often a Scum tactic used to distract the Town. The scum will make an unusual play at night, which would lead to a situation that would 'clear' them (because players will think, "Why would a scum do that?"). These arguments are sometimes used by Newbies and should be avoided in favor of clearer arguments.
I'm stating facts. You're saying "mafia wouldn't do that lol this can't be right". Welcome to WIFOM-town.
On April 09 2010 06:28 haster27 wrote:
Another specific flaw I found; JeeJee states that four of us created wagon against Nikon when only alternative lynch target was Caller- only for citizen and me to start Caller bandwagon very next day. What? If Caller also is Townie, why wouldn't we have followed the bandwagon suggested by confirmed Townie? Remember you said we are not following the bandwagon that has already formed, but started it. There must be motive for Mafia to start the bandwagon that goes against the argument of confirmed Townie, and therefore draw suspicion later on. If both Nikon and Caller is Townie, it is absolutely illogical for Mafia to continue their bandwagon against Nikon and Caller even when confirmed Townie is strongly arguing for alternative lynch target.
A simple cursory look over the history will reveal something obvious about day 3 votes that you bring up
1) there were 4 votes on caller
2) EVERY SINGLE VOTER ABSTAINED, there are now 0 votes on caller.
3) large time extension via nukes
4) misc votes (few on caller again, few on nemy)
5) nuke reflection
6) enter your wagon
Let's see, who to wagon on... Caller, for whom the voters weren't committed enough to stay on, nemy who had a few random votes or a lying claimer staring you in the face, asking to get called out on it (much like our dear citi.zen may i add).
On April 09 2010 06:28 haster27 wrote:
Argument against abilities
If Mafia - Caller in this case because he is certainly Mafia if citizen is innocent - intended to start bandwagon against citizen, they might easily could have chosen to keep their nuke-stealer in check to further incriminate him. Absense of nuke steal proves nothing.
I cannot even understand what you are arguing here. Citizen had his nuke stolen (because immobile three nukes are perfect nuke-stealer target), but cannot say it publicly because it proves his ability cannot NK the people visiting him? Um... didn't we get that verified when Caller claimed to have checked him? I feel like I did not completely understand your point here, so clarification is welcome.
read closer. if citizen is townie (and apparently he gave up on claiming he has anything other than townie powers at this point), his 3 nukes are lying there waiting to be taken. why weren't they?
Moreover, if you're going to try and "rip this to shreds", acknowledge the next paragraph: the fact that citi.zen lied about his claim. What is your take on this?
On April 09 2010 06:28 haster27 wrote:
Argument against setup
"all we know is that there isn't five mafia": your entire argument hinges on this argument being true. I can only see you thinking Caller/~OpZ~/Abenson/d3/yourself are Townies, because otherwise I cannot see why you would make such statement with confidence. Let me state this means nothing. If Caller is Mafia he and d3_crescentia are no longer confirmed Townie. If so it is still possible there are five Mafia present in the game. Also, you berate laaan for never "[considering] the point that there might not be four mafia, but less", but did anyone ever express an opinion that there might be less than three Mafia previous to your post?
Actually, my entire argument hinges on the fact that citi.zen lied about his roleclaim. Just like Nikon lied about his.
But, let me lay this out as well for completeness' sake:
There are 9 people. Mafia's win condition is to have majority of town during the day time. If there were 5 mafia, they would have majority control, hence they would win. They have not, ergo there are not 5 mafia.
I am really really distraught that townies (CONFIRMED townies no less) are switching votes from someone who has lied about their claim multiple times and doesn't seem to care!
|
On April 09 2010 09:11 ~OpZ~ wrote:
JeeJee...The argument isn't the point. Ignore my vote for Caller. Ignore Abensons. I'm not discussing them. I've justified my intentions to him. Your claim rests on saying Infund/Citizen lied about their claims. Mine rests on Caller lying again.
You say infund/citizen lied multiple times? Caller has lied too.
For instance "Oh hai I'm israeli Cop, Meeples scum"
"Nah sike, I'm JAPAN"
"I don't have anyway of protecting myself from nukes!"
Honestly, Caller's lied about everything at least once. Country, Role, Anti-nukes. Role, MAYBE by a slight possibility he only INADVERTENTLY lied.
Oh I don't deny caller's claim is a clusterfuck of a situation in and of itself. I have stated this multiple times myself. But here's why I choose citizen over caller: citizen lied about his actual ROLE, whereas caller lied about his country and antinuke arsenal. As far as I know, what country you are has no bearing on anything, and lying about not having antinukes is a typical selfish move you can expect from any player of any alignment on day 1. There's much to be gained and nothing to be lost.
On the other hand, saying you're X role, but actually have Y powers, well, that makes sense in very few scenarios. For example claiming triggerhappy when you're actually DT will deter mafia from hitting you. Check. Claiming PGO when you're actually supposed to be a townie makes no sense. But, here's a scenario that does make sense: claiming PGO when you're actually mafia, thus deterring DTs from visiting you.
btw you mentioned caller has lied about his role. where was this? if this is actually true (i don't recall this off the top of my head but am ctrl+f'ing the thread right after this post) i may as well reconsider the whole thing because the one thing i held to so far is that at least caller hasn't lied about his actual role.
|
On April 09 2010 09:36 ~OpZ~ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 09:25 haster27 wrote:First, you are ignoring my first paragraph that Mafia could have tried to frame more evidence against him, but I'll accept that this is a point that cannot be verified. Second, On April 09 2010 06:36 ~OpZ~ wrote:
Why wouldn't citizens nukes have been stolen? Because the mafia take him to be PGO. Caller claims the only person that mafia can't NK without dying is scum because his team can't NK him. So can we lynch Caller and get on with this game now? God thank you for re-posting this. JeeJee, of COURSE caller would claim AGAINST THE PGO. They can't Kill him AND win in one move. Why not just lynch him, because his role CANT BE VERIFIED. If you're scum, why not attack the one person who has the least evidence supporting him, while still having virtually NO EVIDENCE against him either. Although I did attack infund a while back....maybe someone should resurrect those posts....lol
first i'm sad you ignored my post completely. i would advise you to address it pbp style, like I have done with yours.
For infundi, actually you and myself have railed against him in the past, you doing your typical thing, and me calling him a possibly lurking mafia given the inactivity he has portrayed.
But we can't have debate if you ignore my posts i'm afraid =/
|
On April 09 2010 09:41 ~OpZ~ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 09:29 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 09:11 ~OpZ~ wrote:
JeeJee...The argument isn't the point. Ignore my vote for Caller. Ignore Abensons. I'm not discussing them. I've justified my intentions to him. Your claim rests on saying Infund/Citizen lied about their claims. Mine rests on Caller lying again.
You say infund/citizen lied multiple times? Caller has lied too.
For instance "Oh hai I'm israeli Cop, Meeples scum"
"Nah sike, I'm JAPAN"
"I don't have anyway of protecting myself from nukes!"
Honestly, Caller's lied about everything at least once. Country, Role, Anti-nukes. Role, MAYBE by a slight possibility he only INADVERTENTLY lied. Oh I don't deny caller's claim is a clusterfuck of a situation in and of itself. I have stated this multiple times myself. But here's why I choose citizen over caller: citizen lied about his actual ROLE, whereas caller lied about his country and antinuke arsenal. As far as I know, what country you are has no bearing on anything, and lying about not having antinukes is a typical selfish move you can expect from any player of any alignment on day 1. There's much to be gained and nothing to be lost. On the other hand, saying you're X role, but actually have Y powers, well, that makes sense in very few scenarios. For example claiming triggerhappy when you're actually DT will deter mafia from hitting you. Check. Claiming PGO when you're actually supposed to be a townie makes no sense. But, here's a scenario that does make sense: claiming PGO when you're actually mafia, thus deterring DTs from visiting you. btw you mentioned caller has lied about his role. where was this? if this is actually true (i don't recall this off the top of my head but am ctrl+f'ing the thread right after this post) i may as well reconsider the whole thing because the one thing i held to so far is that at least caller hasn't lied about his actual role. Having a restriction on when you can launch your nukes isn't being an actual townie. That's having a role that stops you from launching your nukes unless your nuked. Big difference between townies. Caller's logic is flawed on Iaaan's role. Nikon had a role related to nukes. I image our "One Shot Day Doc" had a role that related to nukes. RoL had a role that was related to nukes. And again, WHY WOULD CITIZEN/infund PUBLICLY argue they kill the person who comes to them at night. I wouldn't say that.
Actually, our "one shot day doc" was simply a colorful name for a townie who had an antinuke at his disposal. I PMd Ace about this because i was freaked that we lost two doc's (L and BM) in the first day and there is no way there would be a third doc with 1kp mafia.
The thing is, they have said it. By claiming PGO, you are claiming you kill people that visit you at night. Likewise, if I were to claim vigi, I claim I can kill a person of my choosing at night. Don't you think if I came out and said "Hey guys, I'm a vigi, my special power is voting during the day" it would look just a wee bit sketchy? A claim like that is lynch-worthy. Every time. Look at Nikon "Hey guys I'm a vet and my power is to.... reflect nukes? oops back to scumville I go"
I'm really confused by your underlying motive to argue this. We have a false claimer in our hands and we're ignoring it? When is this ever a good play?
|
On April 09 2010 10:18 ~OpZ~ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 09:56 JeeJee wrote:
Actually, our "one shot day doc" was simply a colorful name for a townie who had an antinuke at his disposal. I PMd Ace about this because i was freaked that we lost two doc's (L and BM) in the first day and there is no way there would be a third doc with 1kp mafia.
The thing is, they have said it. By claiming PGO, you are claiming you kill people that visit you at night. Likewise, if I were to claim vigi, I claim I can kill a person of my choosing at night. Don't you think if I came out and said "Hey guys, I'm a vigi, my special power is voting during the day" it would look just a wee bit sketchy? A claim like that is lynch-worthy. Every time. Look at Nikon "Hey guys I'm a vet and my power is to.... reflect nukes? oops back to scumville I go"
I'm really confused by your underlying motive to argue this. We have a false claimer in our hands and we're ignoring it? When is this ever a good play? Sorry. My earlier quote didn't pop up. "Why wouldn't citizens nukes have been stolen? Because the mafia take him to be PGO. Caller claims the only person that mafia can't NK without dying is scum because his team can't NK him. So can we lynch Caller and get on with this game now?" Address this point. Would you tell the mafia you would kill your night visitor, when you have 3 nukes, and a nuke theif? I wouldn't. How about if you wanted to get hit? Go read infunds claim. He actually first comes out and says he has 3 nukes. That would draw a smack wouldn't it. We should of had Infund nuke our australian friend yesterday, (sry nemy). Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 04:02 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
I can roleclam for you guys as well, though it's nothing exciting: I am China, pro-town, and have 3 nukes. However I am not allowed to nuke anyone unless they nuke me first. Hi Hi!!! HE CLAIMS!! Sry for that?
Yep, that is his first claim. Then you FoS him and he returns the favor by changing his claim to PGO, quite possibly to try and prevent a DT visit to follow up on your FoS. Note that this was during the same day, so if his plan was to draw a nuke steal during the night, he must've abandoned it, n'est pas? Why?
You're right, a rational townie wouldn't claim he would kill any night visitor in order to draw a nuke steal. So why did infund?
p.s. i do hope you're writing up a reply to my original queries..
|
On April 09 2010 10:29 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 10:18 ~OpZ~ wrote:On April 09 2010 09:56 JeeJee wrote:
Actually, our "one shot day doc" was simply a colorful name for a townie who had an antinuke at his disposal. I PMd Ace about this because i was freaked that we lost two doc's (L and BM) in the first day and there is no way there would be a third doc with 1kp mafia.
The thing is, they have said it. By claiming PGO, you are claiming you kill people that visit you at night. Likewise, if I were to claim vigi, I claim I can kill a person of my choosing at night. Don't you think if I came out and said "Hey guys, I'm a vigi, my special power is voting during the day" it would look just a wee bit sketchy? A claim like that is lynch-worthy. Every time. Look at Nikon "Hey guys I'm a vet and my power is to.... reflect nukes? oops back to scumville I go"
I'm really confused by your underlying motive to argue this. We have a false claimer in our hands and we're ignoring it? When is this ever a good play? Sorry. My earlier quote didn't pop up. "Why wouldn't citizens nukes have been stolen? Because the mafia take him to be PGO. Caller claims the only person that mafia can't NK without dying is scum because his team can't NK him. So can we lynch Caller and get on with this game now?" Address this point. Would you tell the mafia you would kill your night visitor, when you have 3 nukes, and a nuke theif? I wouldn't. How about if you wanted to get hit? Go read infunds claim. He actually first comes out and says he has 3 nukes. That would draw a smack wouldn't it. We should of had Infund nuke our australian friend yesterday, (sry nemy). On April 04 2010 04:02 iNfuNdiBuLuM wrote:
I can roleclam for you guys as well, though it's nothing exciting: I am China, pro-town, and have 3 nukes. However I am not allowed to nuke anyone unless they nuke me first. Hi Hi!!! HE CLAIMS!! Sry for that? Yep, that is his first claim. Then you FoS him and he returns the favor by changing his claim to PGO, quite possibly to try and prevent a DT visit to follow up on your FoS. Note that this was during the same day, so if his plan was to draw a nuke steal during the night, he must've abandoned it, n'est pas? Why? You're right, a rational townie wouldn't claim he would kill any night visitor in order to draw a nuke steal. So why did infund? p.s. i do hope you're writing up a reply to my original queries..
also i'm really quite confused why of all people i'm arguing with a confirmed mason. citi.zen and caller are the ones that should be talking here
|
On April 09 2010 10:56 ~OpZ~ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 09:29 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 09:11 ~OpZ~ wrote:
JeeJee...The argument isn't the point. Ignore my vote for Caller. Ignore Abensons. I'm not discussing them. I've justified my intentions to him. Your claim rests on saying Infund/Citizen lied about their claims. Mine rests on Caller lying again.
You say infund/citizen lied multiple times? Caller has lied too.
For instance "Oh hai I'm israeli Cop, Meeples scum"
"Nah sike, I'm JAPAN"
"I don't have anyway of protecting myself from nukes!"
Honestly, Caller's lied about everything at least once. Country, Role, Anti-nukes. Role, MAYBE by a slight possibility he only INADVERTENTLY lied. Oh I don't deny caller's claim is a clusterfuck of a situation in and of itself. I have stated this multiple times myself. But here's why I choose citizen over caller: citizen lied about his actual ROLE, whereas caller lied about his country and antinuke arsenal. As far as I know, what country you are has no bearing on anything, and lying about not having antinukes is a typical selfish move you can expect from any player of any alignment on day 1. There's much to be gained and nothing to be lost. On the other hand, saying you're X role, but actually have Y powers, well, that makes sense in very few scenarios. For example claiming triggerhappy when you're actually DT will deter mafia from hitting you. Check. Claiming PGO when you're actually supposed to be a townie makes no sense. But, here's a scenario that does make sense: claiming PGO when you're actually mafia, thus deterring DTs from visiting you. btw you mentioned caller has lied about his role. where was this? if this is actually true (i don't recall this off the top of my head but am ctrl+f'ing the thread right after this post) i may as well reconsider the whole thing because the one thing i held to so far is that at least caller hasn't lied about his actual role. I posted my quote explaining WHY citizen would lie about his role. Then pointed out that Infund claimed PGO AFTER explaining he could only fire nukes as retaliation. Well after. Hunted the post down for you. On the hand hand, there was a nuke stealer you are ignoring, that I posted about earlier. Check the nested quote, Haster's post fuck up, made mine stay hidden. I thanked him for posting MY QUOTE. Caller didn't actually lie about his role, if you believe him to be DT. Inadvertently he may have lied is what I meant IF he is INFACT dt, by being Insane. No need to look. (I addressed most of those points in the post I figured, and addressed them in another post)
you're not making any sense.
your answer to why citi.zen would lie about his ability to kill people at night is to draw a nuke steal, correct?
Here's the problem. He claims he has 3 nukes (enticing a nuke steal) but during the same day he claims PGO. If he wanted to entice a nuke steal, he should have waited with this claim until at least after the night, yes?
Many other points you are missing by the way.. should i repost them?
|
On April 09 2010 11:04 ~OpZ~ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 11:02 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 10:56 ~OpZ~ wrote:On April 09 2010 09:29 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 09:11 ~OpZ~ wrote:
JeeJee...The argument isn't the point. Ignore my vote for Caller. Ignore Abensons. I'm not discussing them. I've justified my intentions to him. Your claim rests on saying Infund/Citizen lied about their claims. Mine rests on Caller lying again.
You say infund/citizen lied multiple times? Caller has lied too.
For instance "Oh hai I'm israeli Cop, Meeples scum"
"Nah sike, I'm JAPAN"
"I don't have anyway of protecting myself from nukes!"
Honestly, Caller's lied about everything at least once. Country, Role, Anti-nukes. Role, MAYBE by a slight possibility he only INADVERTENTLY lied. Oh I don't deny caller's claim is a clusterfuck of a situation in and of itself. I have stated this multiple times myself. But here's why I choose citizen over caller: citizen lied about his actual ROLE, whereas caller lied about his country and antinuke arsenal. As far as I know, what country you are has no bearing on anything, and lying about not having antinukes is a typical selfish move you can expect from any player of any alignment on day 1. There's much to be gained and nothing to be lost. On the other hand, saying you're X role, but actually have Y powers, well, that makes sense in very few scenarios. For example claiming triggerhappy when you're actually DT will deter mafia from hitting you. Check. Claiming PGO when you're actually supposed to be a townie makes no sense. But, here's a scenario that does make sense: claiming PGO when you're actually mafia, thus deterring DTs from visiting you. btw you mentioned caller has lied about his role. where was this? if this is actually true (i don't recall this off the top of my head but am ctrl+f'ing the thread right after this post) i may as well reconsider the whole thing because the one thing i held to so far is that at least caller hasn't lied about his actual role. I posted my quote explaining WHY citizen would lie about his role. Then pointed out that Infund claimed PGO AFTER explaining he could only fire nukes as retaliation. Well after. Hunted the post down for you. On the hand hand, there was a nuke stealer you are ignoring, that I posted about earlier. Check the nested quote, Haster's post fuck up, made mine stay hidden. I thanked him for posting MY QUOTE. Caller didn't actually lie about his role, if you believe him to be DT. Inadvertently he may have lied is what I meant IF he is INFACT dt, by being Insane. No need to look. (I addressed most of those points in the post I figured, and addressed them in another post) you're not making any sense. your answer to why citi.zen would lie about his ability to kill people at night is to draw a nuke steal, correct? Here's the problem. He claims he has 3 nukes (enticing a nuke steal) but during the same day he claims PGO. If he wanted to entice a nuke steal, he should have waited with this claim until at least after the night, yes? Many other points you are missing by the way.. should i repost them? Yes please be my guest. He claims it in the same day. I believe Caller should be posting and d3 damn sure needs to make his vote selection. I don't think he'll be on to change it, and this is a very important vote.
ok. before i do though, i want to make sure we're on the same page with this point (can't believe i'm arguing with a mason but anywho..)
you agree he claims it in the same day, great.
therefore, he did not intend to entice a nuke steal, correct?
then, what was the point of changing his claim? recall the circumstances: you FoS citizen, he replies with "I'm PGO". As a response to a FoS to deter DT followup on your FoS, this makes perfect sense. As a way to entice nuke steal it does not.
Are we on the same page here?
|
On April 09 2010 11:20 ~OpZ~ wrote:
Do remember no one has ever used PGO on here. It doesn't sound like a bull shit claim infund would of just made up. Right?
But yes. We seem to be on the same page. Our arguments defer with whether or not we believe Caller to have visited the PGO at night. I say no.
JeeJee...I really believe you to be confirmed. With the path you are going down is detrimental. I would love it if you nuked me right now JeeJee btw. I still have my retaliation on abenson, and I would love to have another retaliation on you. Abenson will probably be more capable of posting tomorrow, while I will not. This day needs to not end any time soon, and I myself would like two nukes in the air.
as far as i recall, nobody has used a roleblocker role as well in TL mafia before this game. i believe zona's setup was the first one to use it (although i did miss quite a few games so i may very well be wrong). However, this isn't important. There's just one version of the roleblocker, and likewise there's just one version of PGO. If it were something else, it would be called something else, plain and simple.
Also, that is not where our arguments differ. You explicitly stated you believe citi.zen lied about his role to entice a nuke steal. And the fact that his nukes weren't stolen you attribute to the fact that he claimed PGO. You can't have it both ways, pick one. THIS is where our arguments differ.
To specify even further, my main argument for picking citizen over caller is that citizen lied about his role whereas caller did not (he did lie about a variety of other things however, which, as i've said, would make him my lynch target in an instant until citizen appeared). Moreover, citizen's lie fits right in with a mafia reaction to a FoS to deter DT checks. It does NOT at all fit in with a townie lie to entice a nuke steal.
This is what I'm trying oh so desperately to convey to you, and you seem to be missing it.
and yeah i'm ready to nuke whenever, although i believe we still have a fair amount of time
I don't believe my judgment is wrong here. We have two people, quite likely but not necessarily on different teams, one of which is a lying roleclaimer, the other one is just confusing as fuck. In a lylo situation (unless it is 6-3 but i doubt it) i can't believe we are not lynching the confirmed lying roleclaimer. It does not get more scummy than this. Nikon demonstrated this much too accurately.
please tell me you understand my position now and understand how yours is not correct wrt nuke stealing and citizen's excuse for lying. then we can move on to the other points. This is the most important though as citizen's lie is my whole basis for lynching him and if it is not fully understood, we're in trouble.
|
On April 09 2010 11:35 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 11:07 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 11:04 ~OpZ~ wrote:On April 09 2010 11:02 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 10:56 ~OpZ~ wrote:On April 09 2010 09:29 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 09:11 ~OpZ~ wrote:
JeeJee...The argument isn't the point. Ignore my vote for Caller. Ignore Abensons. I'm not discussing them. I've justified my intentions to him. Your claim rests on saying Infund/Citizen lied about their claims. Mine rests on Caller lying again.
You say infund/citizen lied multiple times? Caller has lied too.
For instance "Oh hai I'm israeli Cop, Meeples scum"
"Nah sike, I'm JAPAN"
"I don't have anyway of protecting myself from nukes!"
Honestly, Caller's lied about everything at least once. Country, Role, Anti-nukes. Role, MAYBE by a slight possibility he only INADVERTENTLY lied. Oh I don't deny caller's claim is a clusterfuck of a situation in and of itself. I have stated this multiple times myself. But here's why I choose citizen over caller: citizen lied about his actual ROLE, whereas caller lied about his country and antinuke arsenal. As far as I know, what country you are has no bearing on anything, and lying about not having antinukes is a typical selfish move you can expect from any player of any alignment on day 1. There's much to be gained and nothing to be lost. On the other hand, saying you're X role, but actually have Y powers, well, that makes sense in very few scenarios. For example claiming triggerhappy when you're actually DT will deter mafia from hitting you. Check. Claiming PGO when you're actually supposed to be a townie makes no sense. But, here's a scenario that does make sense: claiming PGO when you're actually mafia, thus deterring DTs from visiting you. btw you mentioned caller has lied about his role. where was this? if this is actually true (i don't recall this off the top of my head but am ctrl+f'ing the thread right after this post) i may as well reconsider the whole thing because the one thing i held to so far is that at least caller hasn't lied about his actual role. I posted my quote explaining WHY citizen would lie about his role. Then pointed out that Infund claimed PGO AFTER explaining he could only fire nukes as retaliation. Well after. Hunted the post down for you. On the hand hand, there was a nuke stealer you are ignoring, that I posted about earlier. Check the nested quote, Haster's post fuck up, made mine stay hidden. I thanked him for posting MY QUOTE. Caller didn't actually lie about his role, if you believe him to be DT. Inadvertently he may have lied is what I meant IF he is INFACT dt, by being Insane. No need to look. (I addressed most of those points in the post I figured, and addressed them in another post) you're not making any sense. your answer to why citi.zen would lie about his ability to kill people at night is to draw a nuke steal, correct? Here's the problem. He claims he has 3 nukes (enticing a nuke steal) but during the same day he claims PGO. If he wanted to entice a nuke steal, he should have waited with this claim until at least after the night, yes? Many other points you are missing by the way.. should i repost them? Yes please be my guest. He claims it in the same day. I believe Caller should be posting and d3 damn sure needs to make his vote selection. I don't think he'll be on to change it, and this is a very important vote. ok. before i do though, i want to make sure we're on the same page with this point (can't believe i'm arguing with a mason but anywho..) you agree he claims it in the same day, great. therefore, he did not intend to entice a nuke steal, correct? then, what was the point of changing his claim? recall the circumstances: you FoS citizen, he replies with "I'm PGO". As a response to a FoS to deter DT followup on your FoS, this makes perfect sense. As a way to entice nuke steal it does not. Are we on the same page here? For the sake of clarity, these are the posts Infund made about our ability: Show nested quote +I can roleclam for you guys as well, though it's nothing exciting: I am China, pro-town, and have 3 nukes. However I am not allowed to nuke anyone unless they nuke me first. Show nested quote +And you said it yourself, the fact that you think my ability (named Paranoid Gun Owner, btw) "sounds" like a mafia ability doesn't mean squat. And finally: Show nested quote +
Clarification: I am only allowed to make retaliation strikes. Yeah, it would be awesome (kinda) to be able to nuke 3 people at once, but that's a no go.
Nothing about not being DT check-able or able to kill any night-time visitor. There was no "second" role claim and no attempt to deter anyone from checking us.
read the second quote. He says "my ability, called PGO btw, <random irrelevant stuff here>"
In that very quote he changes his claim to PGO. and a PGO as is widely known, kills any night visitor
anyway this is pointless now. if d3 gets modkilled, if he flips innocent, do we agree to lynch citizen?
obviously if he flips mafia, caller's next, and it should be a cakewalk from there but i seriously doubt this is going to happen unless there are some serious mindgames going on that are way beyond my understanding.
|
sorry, it seems i have missed communicating one very important point.
we have confirmation that citizen lied. we do NOT have confirmation that caller lied (at least not yet). This is what boggles me the most here, that we are voting for a 'maybe' over a 'for sure'.
let me elaborate -- citizen claims his ability is to counter nukes. Then he claims his ability is PGO. One of these is a lie. We know this. You bring up the point that he may have left out the piece about killing@night because he wanted to entice a nuke steal. I pointed out how this cannot be the case because he did not wait for night post before he changed his claim.
also
True...Citizen would of done better claiming his nukes were stolen. Smart boy, smart boy....
actually i believe this would paint him in an even worse light if it were possible -- after his claim of PGO, someone presumably visits him at night and does not die. This would just mean another lie.
Townies have no reason to do the lies that citizen has made. The ONLY reason that I can see, you have outlined: enticing a nuke steal. However, the events that transpired after rule out this possibility completely. In fact, they actually fit in very well with a mafia choosing to claim PGO in order to stop your FoS from becoming a reality. maybe you actually nabbed a mafia there and caused him to panic?
oh and finally, one nuke was stolen from me
also, re: this latest replacement, i guess this means waiting for a d3 modkill isn't an option, so we are back to discussing citizen vs caller. i'm trying my hardest to explain my position, and i'm pretty sure my judgment is correct here.
|
oh yes i fully agree.
to be honest i am not sure why the main person i'm mainly talking with is a confirmed mason of all people. you'd think citizen or caller would chime in and say something. after all, THIS LYNCH DECIDES THE GAME.
i'm going to go to sleep, we have more than 9 hours until nuke right? if not i can nuke right now
|
just checked, we have roughly 16 hours so sleeptime for me i suppose. i'll be on way before the deadline
|
On April 09 2010 12:58 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 12:25 JeeJee wrote:sorry, it seems i have missed communicating one very important point. we have confirmation that citizen lied. we do NOT have confirmation that caller lied (at least not yet). This is what boggles me the most here, that we are voting for a 'maybe' over a 'for sure'. let me elaborate -- citizen claims his ability is to counter nukes. Then he claims his ability is PGO. One of these is a lie. We know this. You bring up the point that he may have left out the piece about killing@night because he wanted to entice a nuke steal. I pointed out how this cannot be the case because he did not wait for night post before he changed his claim. also True...Citizen would of done better claiming his nukes were stolen. Smart boy, smart boy.... actually i believe this would paint him in an even worse light if it were possible -- after his claim of PGO, someone presumably visits him at night and does not die. This would just mean another lie. Townies have no reason to do the lies that citizen has made. The ONLY reason that I can see, you have outlined: enticing a nuke steal. However, the events that transpired after rule out this possibility completely. In fact, they actually fit in very well with a mafia choosing to claim PGO in order to stop your FoS from becoming a reality. maybe you actually nabbed a mafia there and caused him to panic? oh and finally, one nuke was stolen from me also, re: this latest replacement, i guess this means waiting for a d3 modkill isn't an option, so we are back to discussing citizen vs caller. i'm trying my hardest to explain my position, and i'm pretty sure my judgment is correct here. No - you do not know I lied. You assume it, based on what you think the definition of the paranoid gun owner is in some other game. Read every post myself or Inf made - we never claimed to have the ability to hit any night checker. Ever. Had we intended the role claim to be a deterrent for a DT you think we might have mentioned that part, no? Also, you claim you do not know Caller lied yet? So you think he is both Israel and Japan? And you find it rational for him to claim DT to "stay low and not be a mafia target"? Please explain to me how this laying low business works - I thought the mafia wants to kill DTs, no? The longer this is going on the more I think you are red. A rational person would not miss these simple facts and constantly try to distort them.
reading the thread will prevent posts like these i'm afraid
but as long as we're absolutely clear, i will adress this too, although I really shouldn't have to. However, at this time, nobody can afford being misinformed so I will lay this out too.
first of all, understand the context in which this post was made. me and opz were debating about caller, and i had fully addressed my suspicions of his lies about his anti nuke arsenal as well as his country. would you like me to pull up the post? after this was taken into account, i stated, as I am stating here again, that the main reason I suspect you over caller is because you lied about your role whereas caller did not. (at this point actually opz brought up that caller may have in fact lied about his role too, but upon further inspection this was not the case -- if it were, my entire position would have to be rethought. I have already said many times caller's claim is sketchy and I would lynch him in an instant UNTIL you showed up. This is very important which is why I'm stating it for the umpteenth time so we're all on the same page here)
The other bit about the PGO -- it is an assumption, and a perfectly valid one. Just as a vigi kills at night, so does a PGO kill his visitors. It is what the role is about. It's not just mafia scum. Every single mafia site agrees.
ECNet:
http://wiki.ecnet.org/wiki/Mafia
Paranoid gun owner – If the paranoid gun owner is targeted at night for anything, whether it's a kill, investigation, or even protection, the paranoid gun owner must kill whomever targeted him
Neoseeker
http://wikiguides.neoseeker.com/wiki/The_Mafia_Game/Army_Veteran
Perhaps a role used more frequently than the Army Veteran role, a Paranoid Gun Owner will automatically kill anyone that targets them at night for any reason, whether positive or negative.
Mafiascum
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Paranoid_Gun_Owner
The Paranoid Gun Owner, similar to the Army Veteran, involuntarily kills anyone who targets him during the night, regardless of alignment. He can be a liability to the Town for this reason, as he indiscriminately kills Cops, Doctors, etc.
Would you like me to keep going?
This isn't a matter of opinion. You lied about your role.
|
And just to clarify, those were the first three google results for searching "paranoid gun owner" mafia. I didn't go out of my way to find sites that have this, because I don't have to.
Re: your latest post
If infund indeed have been paranoid gun owner (Townie), you (Townie Detective) would have been killed. Thus your took unnecessary action that would have placed the Town in worse position.
I don't claim to know what caller was thinking (this is why I'm urging him to post more, just like you), but he has already replied to this as well. His argument was something along the lines of "there could be no worse scenario because we are already in LyLo. the only worse thing that could happen at this point is a loss" whether you think that's a valid reason is up to you. he went into more detail a couple of pages back. please read the thread I shouldn't have to say this to a townie.
|
On April 09 2010 22:22 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 22:08 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 12:58 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 12:25 JeeJee wrote:sorry, it seems i have missed communicating one very important point. we have confirmation that citizen lied. we do NOT have confirmation that caller lied (at least not yet). This is what boggles me the most here, that we are voting for a 'maybe' over a 'for sure'. let me elaborate -- citizen claims his ability is to counter nukes. Then he claims his ability is PGO. One of these is a lie. We know this. You bring up the point that he may have left out the piece about killing@night because he wanted to entice a nuke steal. I pointed out how this cannot be the case because he did not wait for night post before he changed his claim. also True...Citizen would of done better claiming his nukes were stolen. Smart boy, smart boy.... actually i believe this would paint him in an even worse light if it were possible -- after his claim of PGO, someone presumably visits him at night and does not die. This would just mean another lie. Townies have no reason to do the lies that citizen has made. The ONLY reason that I can see, you have outlined: enticing a nuke steal. However, the events that transpired after rule out this possibility completely. In fact, they actually fit in very well with a mafia choosing to claim PGO in order to stop your FoS from becoming a reality. maybe you actually nabbed a mafia there and caused him to panic? oh and finally, one nuke was stolen from me also, re: this latest replacement, i guess this means waiting for a d3 modkill isn't an option, so we are back to discussing citizen vs caller. i'm trying my hardest to explain my position, and i'm pretty sure my judgment is correct here. No - you do not know I lied. You assume it, based on what you think the definition of the paranoid gun owner is in some other game. Read every post myself or Inf made - we never claimed to have the ability to hit any night checker. Ever. Had we intended the role claim to be a deterrent for a DT you think we might have mentioned that part, no? Also, you claim you do not know Caller lied yet? So you think he is both Israel and Japan? And you find it rational for him to claim DT to "stay low and not be a mafia target"? Please explain to me how this laying low business works - I thought the mafia wants to kill DTs, no? The longer this is going on the more I think you are red. A rational person would not miss these simple facts and constantly try to distort them. reading the thread will prevent posts like these i'm afraid but as long as we're absolutely clear, i will adress this too, although I really shouldn't have to. However, at this time, nobody can afford being misinformed so I will lay this out too. first of all, understand the context in which this post was made. me and opz were debating about caller, and i had fully addressed my suspicions of his lies about his anti nuke arsenal as well as his country. would you like me to pull up the post? after this was taken into account, i stated, as I am stating here again, that the main reason I suspect you over caller is because you lied about your role whereas caller did not. (at this point actually opz brought up that caller may have in fact lied about his role too, but upon further inspection this was not the case -- if it were, my entire position would have to be rethought. I have already said many times caller's claim is sketchy and I would lynch him in an instant UNTIL you showed up. This is very important which is why I'm stating it for the umpteenth time so we're all on the same page here) The other bit about the PGO -- it is an assumption, and a perfectly valid one. Just as a vigi kills at night, so does a PGO kill his visitors. It is what the role is about. It's not just mafia scum. Every single mafia site agrees.ECNet: http://wiki.ecnet.org/wiki/MafiaParanoid gun owner – If the paranoid gun owner is targeted at night for anything, whether it's a kill, investigation, or even protection, the paranoid gun owner must kill whomever targeted him Neoseeker http://wikiguides.neoseeker.com/wiki/The_Mafia_Game/Army_VeteranPerhaps a role used more frequently than the Army Veteran role, a Paranoid Gun Owner will automatically kill anyone that targets them at night for any reason, whether positive or negative. Mafiascum http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Paranoid_Gun_OwnerThe Paranoid Gun Owner, similar to the Army Veteran, involuntarily kills anyone who targets him during the night, regardless of alignment. He can be a liability to the Town for this reason, as he indiscriminately kills Cops, Doctors, etc. Would you like me to keep going? This isn't a matter of opinion. You lied about your role. Your entire argument is based on the belief that Infund lied when he mentioned the name Ace gave to his ability. It's impossible for me to justify something Ace did - he defined people's roles as he saw fit in this game. At the very least admit that neither me nor Infund explicitly claimed to have the ability to kill any night visitors. All we claimed, consistently, was to have the ability to retaliate. There was no explicit attempt to deter any DT from role-checking.
I disagree. if I were to claim vigilante, I don't have to specifically claim that my role is killing people at night. There may be game-specific restrictions like I cannot kill on the first night, or can only kill twice or whatever, but either way I can kill people at night.
Likewise for PGO -- by stating you are PGO, you are explicitly claiming your ability to kill any night visitor indiscriminately. maybe the restriction is you can only do it once then revert to townie (a popular variation) but the underlying mechanics is always there.
as a sidenote to opz -- i have only been skimming you versus lmnop for the reason that if my judgment is correct here, there is at least one mafia between lmnop/iaaan, and very likely both of them are. am i reading this correctly, did he accuse you of being mafia?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
