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On April 09 2010 11:07 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 11:04 ~OpZ~ wrote:On April 09 2010 11:02 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 10:56 ~OpZ~ wrote:On April 09 2010 09:29 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 09:11 ~OpZ~ wrote:
JeeJee...The argument isn't the point. Ignore my vote for Caller. Ignore Abensons. I'm not discussing them. I've justified my intentions to him. Your claim rests on saying Infund/Citizen lied about their claims. Mine rests on Caller lying again.
You say infund/citizen lied multiple times? Caller has lied too.
For instance "Oh hai I'm israeli Cop, Meeples scum"
"Nah sike, I'm JAPAN"
"I don't have anyway of protecting myself from nukes!"
Honestly, Caller's lied about everything at least once. Country, Role, Anti-nukes. Role, MAYBE by a slight possibility he only INADVERTENTLY lied. Oh I don't deny caller's claim is a clusterfuck of a situation in and of itself. I have stated this multiple times myself. But here's why I choose citizen over caller: citizen lied about his actual ROLE, whereas caller lied about his country and antinuke arsenal. As far as I know, what country you are has no bearing on anything, and lying about not having antinukes is a typical selfish move you can expect from any player of any alignment on day 1. There's much to be gained and nothing to be lost. On the other hand, saying you're X role, but actually have Y powers, well, that makes sense in very few scenarios. For example claiming triggerhappy when you're actually DT will deter mafia from hitting you. Check. Claiming PGO when you're actually supposed to be a townie makes no sense. But, here's a scenario that does make sense: claiming PGO when you're actually mafia, thus deterring DTs from visiting you. btw you mentioned caller has lied about his role. where was this? if this is actually true (i don't recall this off the top of my head but am ctrl+f'ing the thread right after this post) i may as well reconsider the whole thing because the one thing i held to so far is that at least caller hasn't lied about his actual role. I posted my quote explaining WHY citizen would lie about his role. Then pointed out that Infund claimed PGO AFTER explaining he could only fire nukes as retaliation. Well after. Hunted the post down for you. On the hand hand, there was a nuke stealer you are ignoring, that I posted about earlier. Check the nested quote, Haster's post fuck up, made mine stay hidden. I thanked him for posting MY QUOTE. Caller didn't actually lie about his role, if you believe him to be DT. Inadvertently he may have lied is what I meant IF he is INFACT dt, by being Insane. No need to look. (I addressed most of those points in the post I figured, and addressed them in another post) you're not making any sense. your answer to why citi.zen would lie about his ability to kill people at night is to draw a nuke steal, correct? Here's the problem. He claims he has 3 nukes (enticing a nuke steal) but during the same day he claims PGO. If he wanted to entice a nuke steal, he should have waited with this claim until at least after the night, yes? Many other points you are missing by the way.. should i repost them? Yes please be my guest. He claims it in the same day. I believe Caller should be posting and d3 damn sure needs to make his vote selection. I don't think he'll be on to change it, and this is a very important vote. ok. before i do though, i want to make sure we're on the same page with this point (can't believe i'm arguing with a mason but anywho..) you agree he claims it in the same day, great. therefore, he did not intend to entice a nuke steal, correct? then, what was the point of changing his claim? recall the circumstances: you FoS citizen, he replies with "I'm PGO". As a response to a FoS to deter DT followup on your FoS, this makes perfect sense. As a way to entice nuke steal it does not. Are we on the same page here?
For the sake of clarity, these are the posts Infund made about our ability:
I can roleclam for you guys as well, though it's nothing exciting: I am China, pro-town, and have 3 nukes. However I am not allowed to nuke anyone unless they nuke me first.
And you said it yourself, the fact that you think my ability (named Paranoid Gun Owner, btw) "sounds" like a mafia ability doesn't mean squat.
And finally:
Clarification: I am only allowed to make retaliation strikes. Yeah, it would be awesome (kinda) to be able to nuke 3 people at once, but that's a no go.
Nothing about not being DT check-able or able to kill any night-time visitor. There was no "second" role claim and no attempt to deter anyone from checking us.
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By the way, since I took over I've also offered the same consistent explanation of my role, which I thought you fully understood judging by this post:
On April 07 2010 03:12 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 03:08 JeeJee wrote:On April 07 2010 03:06 ~OpZ~ wrote:
...Nemy...I was defending you homie...
Why so defensive?
Haster even agreed. Which Inf was the one using hasters statement IN his long post detailing the actions of the thread.
Citizen, how does your ability work. You can retaliate, OR only nuke people that nuke you... retaliate = nuking people that nuke you no idea why you separate the two as if they are different Right.
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On April 09 2010 12:25 JeeJee wrote:sorry, it seems i have missed communicating one very important point. we have confirmation that citizen lied. we do NOT have confirmation that caller lied (at least not yet). This is what boggles me the most here, that we are voting for a 'maybe' over a 'for sure'. let me elaborate -- citizen claims his ability is to counter nukes. Then he claims his ability is PGO. One of these is a lie. We know this. You bring up the point that he may have left out the piece about killing@night because he wanted to entice a nuke steal. I pointed out how this cannot be the case because he did not wait for night post before he changed his claim. also Show nested quote +True...Citizen would of done better claiming his nukes were stolen. Smart boy, smart boy.... actually i believe this would paint him in an even worse light if it were possible -- after his claim of PGO, someone presumably visits him at night and does not die. This would just mean another lie. Townies have no reason to do the lies that citizen has made. The ONLY reason that I can see, you have outlined: enticing a nuke steal. However, the events that transpired after rule out this possibility completely. In fact, they actually fit in very well with a mafia choosing to claim PGO in order to stop your FoS from becoming a reality. maybe you actually nabbed a mafia there and caused him to panic? oh and finally, one nuke was stolen from me also, re: this latest replacement, i guess this means waiting for a d3 modkill isn't an option, so we are back to discussing citizen vs caller. i'm trying my hardest to explain my position, and i'm pretty sure my judgment is correct here.
No - you do not know I lied. You assume it, based on what you think the definition of the paranoid gun owner is in some other game.
Read every post myself or Inf made - we never claimed to have the ability to hit any night checker. Ever. Had we intended the role claim to be a deterrent for a DT you think we might have mentioned that part, no?
Also, you claim you do not know Caller lied yet? So you think he is both Israel and Japan? And you find it rational for him to claim DT to "stay low and not be a mafia target"? Please explain to me how this laying low business works - I thought the mafia wants to kill DTs, no?
The longer this is going on the more I think you are red. A rational person would not miss these simple facts and constantly try to distort them.
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On April 09 2010 13:31 Iaaan wrote:
anyone considered lynching haster or LMNOP? (:
afk more sorry I can't be more active
##vote citizen because people who are probably townies are voting for him and they probably need my vote ^^
You already voted for me and your vote still counts.
Thanks for the new arguments though. Are you saying Caller is likely town but Abenson and OpZ are not? Which people are we talking about exactly?
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On April 09 2010 22:08 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 12:58 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 12:25 JeeJee wrote:sorry, it seems i have missed communicating one very important point. we have confirmation that citizen lied. we do NOT have confirmation that caller lied (at least not yet). This is what boggles me the most here, that we are voting for a 'maybe' over a 'for sure'. let me elaborate -- citizen claims his ability is to counter nukes. Then he claims his ability is PGO. One of these is a lie. We know this. You bring up the point that he may have left out the piece about killing@night because he wanted to entice a nuke steal. I pointed out how this cannot be the case because he did not wait for night post before he changed his claim. also True...Citizen would of done better claiming his nukes were stolen. Smart boy, smart boy.... actually i believe this would paint him in an even worse light if it were possible -- after his claim of PGO, someone presumably visits him at night and does not die. This would just mean another lie. Townies have no reason to do the lies that citizen has made. The ONLY reason that I can see, you have outlined: enticing a nuke steal. However, the events that transpired after rule out this possibility completely. In fact, they actually fit in very well with a mafia choosing to claim PGO in order to stop your FoS from becoming a reality. maybe you actually nabbed a mafia there and caused him to panic? oh and finally, one nuke was stolen from me also, re: this latest replacement, i guess this means waiting for a d3 modkill isn't an option, so we are back to discussing citizen vs caller. i'm trying my hardest to explain my position, and i'm pretty sure my judgment is correct here. No - you do not know I lied. You assume it, based on what you think the definition of the paranoid gun owner is in some other game. Read every post myself or Inf made - we never claimed to have the ability to hit any night checker. Ever. Had we intended the role claim to be a deterrent for a DT you think we might have mentioned that part, no? Also, you claim you do not know Caller lied yet? So you think he is both Israel and Japan? And you find it rational for him to claim DT to "stay low and not be a mafia target"? Please explain to me how this laying low business works - I thought the mafia wants to kill DTs, no? The longer this is going on the more I think you are red. A rational person would not miss these simple facts and constantly try to distort them. reading the thread will prevent posts like these i'm afraid but as long as we're absolutely clear, i will adress this too, although I really shouldn't have to. However, at this time, nobody can afford being misinformed so I will lay this out too. first of all, understand the context in which this post was made. me and opz were debating about caller, and i had fully addressed my suspicions of his lies about his anti nuke arsenal as well as his country. would you like me to pull up the post? after this was taken into account, i stated, as I am stating here again, that the main reason I suspect you over caller is because you lied about your role whereas caller did not. (at this point actually opz brought up that caller may have in fact lied about his role too, but upon further inspection this was not the case -- if it were, my entire position would have to be rethought. I have already said many times caller's claim is sketchy and I would lynch him in an instant UNTIL you showed up. This is very important which is why I'm stating it for the umpteenth time so we're all on the same page here) The other bit about the PGO -- it is an assumption, and a perfectly valid one. Just as a vigi kills at night, so does a PGO kill his visitors. It is what the role is about. It's not just mafia scum. Every single mafia site agrees.ECNet: http://wiki.ecnet.org/wiki/MafiaShow nested quote +Paranoid gun owner – If the paranoid gun owner is targeted at night for anything, whether it's a kill, investigation, or even protection, the paranoid gun owner must kill whomever targeted him Neoseeker http://wikiguides.neoseeker.com/wiki/The_Mafia_Game/Army_VeteranShow nested quote +Perhaps a role used more frequently than the Army Veteran role, a Paranoid Gun Owner will automatically kill anyone that targets them at night for any reason, whether positive or negative. Mafiascum http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Paranoid_Gun_OwnerShow nested quote +The Paranoid Gun Owner, similar to the Army Veteran, involuntarily kills anyone who targets him during the night, regardless of alignment. He can be a liability to the Town for this reason, as he indiscriminately kills Cops, Doctors, etc. Would you like me to keep going? This isn't a matter of opinion. You lied about your role.
Your entire argument is based on the belief that Infund lied when he mentioned the name Ace gave to his ability. It's impossible for me to justify something Ace did - he defined people's roles as he saw fit in this game.
At the very least admit that neither me nor Infund explicitly claimed to have the ability to kill any night visitors. All we claimed, consistently, was to have the ability to retaliate. There was no explicit attempt to deter any DT from role-checking.
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On April 09 2010 22:33 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 22:22 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:08 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 12:58 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 12:25 JeeJee wrote:sorry, it seems i have missed communicating one very important point. we have confirmation that citizen lied. we do NOT have confirmation that caller lied (at least not yet). This is what boggles me the most here, that we are voting for a 'maybe' over a 'for sure'. let me elaborate -- citizen claims his ability is to counter nukes. Then he claims his ability is PGO. One of these is a lie. We know this. You bring up the point that he may have left out the piece about killing@night because he wanted to entice a nuke steal. I pointed out how this cannot be the case because he did not wait for night post before he changed his claim. also True...Citizen would of done better claiming his nukes were stolen. Smart boy, smart boy.... actually i believe this would paint him in an even worse light if it were possible -- after his claim of PGO, someone presumably visits him at night and does not die. This would just mean another lie. Townies have no reason to do the lies that citizen has made. The ONLY reason that I can see, you have outlined: enticing a nuke steal. However, the events that transpired after rule out this possibility completely. In fact, they actually fit in very well with a mafia choosing to claim PGO in order to stop your FoS from becoming a reality. maybe you actually nabbed a mafia there and caused him to panic? oh and finally, one nuke was stolen from me also, re: this latest replacement, i guess this means waiting for a d3 modkill isn't an option, so we are back to discussing citizen vs caller. i'm trying my hardest to explain my position, and i'm pretty sure my judgment is correct here. No - you do not know I lied. You assume it, based on what you think the definition of the paranoid gun owner is in some other game. Read every post myself or Inf made - we never claimed to have the ability to hit any night checker. Ever. Had we intended the role claim to be a deterrent for a DT you think we might have mentioned that part, no? Also, you claim you do not know Caller lied yet? So you think he is both Israel and Japan? And you find it rational for him to claim DT to "stay low and not be a mafia target"? Please explain to me how this laying low business works - I thought the mafia wants to kill DTs, no? The longer this is going on the more I think you are red. A rational person would not miss these simple facts and constantly try to distort them. reading the thread will prevent posts like these i'm afraid but as long as we're absolutely clear, i will adress this too, although I really shouldn't have to. However, at this time, nobody can afford being misinformed so I will lay this out too. first of all, understand the context in which this post was made. me and opz were debating about caller, and i had fully addressed my suspicions of his lies about his anti nuke arsenal as well as his country. would you like me to pull up the post? after this was taken into account, i stated, as I am stating here again, that the main reason I suspect you over caller is because you lied about your role whereas caller did not. (at this point actually opz brought up that caller may have in fact lied about his role too, but upon further inspection this was not the case -- if it were, my entire position would have to be rethought. I have already said many times caller's claim is sketchy and I would lynch him in an instant UNTIL you showed up. This is very important which is why I'm stating it for the umpteenth time so we're all on the same page here) The other bit about the PGO -- it is an assumption, and a perfectly valid one. Just as a vigi kills at night, so does a PGO kill his visitors. It is what the role is about. It's not just mafia scum. Every single mafia site agrees.ECNet: http://wiki.ecnet.org/wiki/MafiaParanoid gun owner – If the paranoid gun owner is targeted at night for anything, whether it's a kill, investigation, or even protection, the paranoid gun owner must kill whomever targeted him Neoseeker http://wikiguides.neoseeker.com/wiki/The_Mafia_Game/Army_VeteranPerhaps a role used more frequently than the Army Veteran role, a Paranoid Gun Owner will automatically kill anyone that targets them at night for any reason, whether positive or negative. Mafiascum http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Paranoid_Gun_OwnerThe Paranoid Gun Owner, similar to the Army Veteran, involuntarily kills anyone who targets him during the night, regardless of alignment. He can be a liability to the Town for this reason, as he indiscriminately kills Cops, Doctors, etc. Would you like me to keep going? This isn't a matter of opinion. You lied about your role. Your entire argument is based on the belief that Infund lied when he mentioned the name Ace gave to his ability. It's impossible for me to justify something Ace did - he defined people's roles as he saw fit in this game. At the very least admit that neither me nor Infund explicitly claimed to have the ability to kill any night visitors. All we claimed, consistently, was to have the ability to retaliate. There was no explicit attempt to deter any DT from role-checking. I disagree. if I were to claim vigilante, I don't have to specifically claim that my role is killing people at night. There may be game-specific restrictions like I cannot kill on the first night, or can only kill twice or whatever, but either way I can kill people at night. Likewise for PGO -- by stating you are PGO, you are explicitly claiming your ability to kill any night visitor indiscriminately. maybe the restriction is you can only do it once then revert to townie (a popular variation) but the underlying mechanics is always there. as a sidenote to opz -- i have only been skimming you versus lmnop for the reason that if my judgment is correct here, there is at least one mafia between lmnop/iaaan, and very likely both of them are. am i reading this correctly, did he accuse you of being mafia?
The vigilante comparison is not entirely fair, but yes, in the end I wish Ace would have chosen a different name for my ability. In the end it would be quite unfortunate it the town lost because of it.
On another note - you continue to say Caller is being consistent. Please explain how his his claim that he was trying not to be a mafia target and lay low squares with claiming to be a cop, twice. Why did he think that would make him less of a target?
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Anyway I guess the game ends today. I'm not extending again, and no lynch = mafia win. GG guys. I'm going to work at 12. And I said that last night. Choke.
Wait, don't we have the votes for Caller already? Can we get an official count?
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On April 10 2010 00:37 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 00:24 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:33 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 22:22 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:08 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 12:58 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 12:25 JeeJee wrote:sorry, it seems i have missed communicating one very important point. we have confirmation that citizen lied. we do NOT have confirmation that caller lied (at least not yet). This is what boggles me the most here, that we are voting for a 'maybe' over a 'for sure'. let me elaborate -- citizen claims his ability is to counter nukes. Then he claims his ability is PGO. One of these is a lie. We know this. You bring up the point that he may have left out the piece about killing@night because he wanted to entice a nuke steal. I pointed out how this cannot be the case because he did not wait for night post before he changed his claim. also True...Citizen would of done better claiming his nukes were stolen. Smart boy, smart boy.... actually i believe this would paint him in an even worse light if it were possible -- after his claim of PGO, someone presumably visits him at night and does not die. This would just mean another lie. Townies have no reason to do the lies that citizen has made. The ONLY reason that I can see, you have outlined: enticing a nuke steal. However, the events that transpired after rule out this possibility completely. In fact, they actually fit in very well with a mafia choosing to claim PGO in order to stop your FoS from becoming a reality. maybe you actually nabbed a mafia there and caused him to panic? oh and finally, one nuke was stolen from me also, re: this latest replacement, i guess this means waiting for a d3 modkill isn't an option, so we are back to discussing citizen vs caller. i'm trying my hardest to explain my position, and i'm pretty sure my judgment is correct here. No - you do not know I lied. You assume it, based on what you think the definition of the paranoid gun owner is in some other game. Read every post myself or Inf made - we never claimed to have the ability to hit any night checker. Ever. Had we intended the role claim to be a deterrent for a DT you think we might have mentioned that part, no? Also, you claim you do not know Caller lied yet? So you think he is both Israel and Japan? And you find it rational for him to claim DT to "stay low and not be a mafia target"? Please explain to me how this laying low business works - I thought the mafia wants to kill DTs, no? The longer this is going on the more I think you are red. A rational person would not miss these simple facts and constantly try to distort them. reading the thread will prevent posts like these i'm afraid but as long as we're absolutely clear, i will adress this too, although I really shouldn't have to. However, at this time, nobody can afford being misinformed so I will lay this out too. first of all, understand the context in which this post was made. me and opz were debating about caller, and i had fully addressed my suspicions of his lies about his anti nuke arsenal as well as his country. would you like me to pull up the post? after this was taken into account, i stated, as I am stating here again, that the main reason I suspect you over caller is because you lied about your role whereas caller did not. (at this point actually opz brought up that caller may have in fact lied about his role too, but upon further inspection this was not the case -- if it were, my entire position would have to be rethought. I have already said many times caller's claim is sketchy and I would lynch him in an instant UNTIL you showed up. This is very important which is why I'm stating it for the umpteenth time so we're all on the same page here) The other bit about the PGO -- it is an assumption, and a perfectly valid one. Just as a vigi kills at night, so does a PGO kill his visitors. It is what the role is about. It's not just mafia scum. Every single mafia site agrees.ECNet: http://wiki.ecnet.org/wiki/MafiaParanoid gun owner – If the paranoid gun owner is targeted at night for anything, whether it's a kill, investigation, or even protection, the paranoid gun owner must kill whomever targeted him Neoseeker http://wikiguides.neoseeker.com/wiki/The_Mafia_Game/Army_VeteranPerhaps a role used more frequently than the Army Veteran role, a Paranoid Gun Owner will automatically kill anyone that targets them at night for any reason, whether positive or negative. Mafiascum http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Paranoid_Gun_OwnerThe Paranoid Gun Owner, similar to the Army Veteran, involuntarily kills anyone who targets him during the night, regardless of alignment. He can be a liability to the Town for this reason, as he indiscriminately kills Cops, Doctors, etc. Would you like me to keep going? This isn't a matter of opinion. You lied about your role. Your entire argument is based on the belief that Infund lied when he mentioned the name Ace gave to his ability. It's impossible for me to justify something Ace did - he defined people's roles as he saw fit in this game. At the very least admit that neither me nor Infund explicitly claimed to have the ability to kill any night visitors. All we claimed, consistently, was to have the ability to retaliate. There was no explicit attempt to deter any DT from role-checking. I disagree. if I were to claim vigilante, I don't have to specifically claim that my role is killing people at night. There may be game-specific restrictions like I cannot kill on the first night, or can only kill twice or whatever, but either way I can kill people at night. Likewise for PGO -- by stating you are PGO, you are explicitly claiming your ability to kill any night visitor indiscriminately. maybe the restriction is you can only do it once then revert to townie (a popular variation) but the underlying mechanics is always there. as a sidenote to opz -- i have only been skimming you versus lmnop for the reason that if my judgment is correct here, there is at least one mafia between lmnop/iaaan, and very likely both of them are. am i reading this correctly, did he accuse you of being mafia? The vigilante comparison is not entirely fair, but yes, in the end I wish Ace would have chosen a different name for my ability. In the end it would be quite unfortunate it the town lost because of it. On another note - you continue to say Caller is being consistent. Please explain how his his claim that he was trying not to be a mafia target and lay low squares with claiming to be a cop, twice. Why did he think that would make him less of a target? to be fair, i'm not saying caller is being consistent. I'm saying he's the lesser of the 2 evils because at least he hasn't provably lied about his role in a way that doesn't make sense for a townie but does make sense for a mafia trying to dodge a FoS placed by opz or, would you like to pull up my relevant posts so that i may have a clearer idea of what you mean by saying "you keep saying caller is being consistent"? like i said, nobody can afford being misinformed here
How does it make sense for a townie to claim Cop so as not to be a mafia target? This only makes sense for a red - since they are not afraid to be killed at night.
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On April 10 2010 00:43 ~OpZ~ wrote:
##Vote Elemenope
He is mafia by numbers.
If Caller is truthful, Elemenope can't be mafia unless their is three mafia, and we continue to accept JeeJee as Town. Remember, Caller "checked" D3.
Abenson, Myself, Caller, D3, JeeJee
If Haster and Citizen are right
Citizen, Haster, Abenson, Me, JeeJee
Otherwise we are not in a lylo situation and can be wrong.
We have the damn votes, why are you saving Caller? Don't let LMNOP distract you - wtf.
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By the way OpZ - we get the same information by lynching Caller. In your own own words we need a lynching tonight. I don't understand your vote switch at all.
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On April 10 2010 00:47 JeeJee wrote:
yeah i'm ignoring it on purpose. what value would it have here? pretty sure the only reason i'm alive is because I hinted I am triggerhappy or hatter type role. whether I am that role or plain jane or even something random like a medic, doesn't affect my logic and shouldn't affect your decision making with respect to said logic. remember, if we are in 5-4, we will be in lylo for the next four days, not just today assuming no extra kp. if mafia want me to shut up, i'd rather have them debate about it.
Is this in relation to Caller's cop claim? What are you replying to?
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On April 10 2010 00:57 ~OpZ~ wrote:
"as a sidenote to opz -- i have only been skimming you versus lmnop for the reason that if my judgment is correct here, there is at least one mafia between lmnop/iaaan, and very likely both of them are. am i reading this correctly, did he accuse you of being mafia?"
Good, then you don't mind lynching LMNOP with me?
Citizen, we need 5 votes for the majority, not 4. And if lynching LMNOP will convince JeeJee, I'm fine with it. I've done explained he can't possibly be town no matter what if this is Lylo
The only problem is this: I am 100% sure Caller is lying, since he claimed to have confirmed me as a red, which I obviously know I am not; I was and still am comfortable getting lynched myself to give the town indisputable information about Caller and his fake claims.
LMNOP I cannot be certain of. Probable perhaps, but far from certain in my book.
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The math is this: Caller is 100% lying. Look, there are still some votes for me. Why don't you vote for me again, see what color I turn tonight and settle this one way or another. I'll vote for myself again to help the count. Then lynch Caller if the game is still going. It beats a no-lynch, at least you have clear information.
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A vote-count would still be nice.
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On April 10 2010 01:20 JeeJee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2010 23:55 JeeJee wrote:
to be fair i haven't gotten your clear stance on citizen's roleclaim lie. what do you make of it? at least answer this; i have done my best to explain my position as clearnly as possible. this still stands unanswered by opz, which irks me the most because this is what i base my whole argument on citizen's lynch about. it has been standing unanswered this entire time, even after i started ignoring all of my other points/queries in an effort to get your official stance on this one so there is no confusion with other points, yet somehow this still remains unanswered. please please PLEASE answer this. give me your official statement here. I have done my best to answer every single thing about my position and i believe i have done so. please return the favor by answering this one thing
Well, your argument is actually two pronged: you point out my role seems inconsistent with your view of the PGO. You also say this is more inconsistent than Caller's play, and that my claim only makes sense for a red, not a townies, as opposed to Caller's claims. You thus want to vote for me instead of him.
Keeping this in mind, please answer this bit:
On April 10 2010 00:43 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 00:37 JeeJee wrote:On April 10 2010 00:24 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:33 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 22:22 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:08 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 12:58 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 12:25 JeeJee wrote:sorry, it seems i have missed communicating one very important point. we have confirmation that citizen lied. we do NOT have confirmation that caller lied (at least not yet). This is what boggles me the most here, that we are voting for a 'maybe' over a 'for sure'. let me elaborate -- citizen claims his ability is to counter nukes. Then he claims his ability is PGO. One of these is a lie. We know this. You bring up the point that he may have left out the piece about killing@night because he wanted to entice a nuke steal. I pointed out how this cannot be the case because he did not wait for night post before he changed his claim. also True...Citizen would of done better claiming his nukes were stolen. Smart boy, smart boy.... actually i believe this would paint him in an even worse light if it were possible -- after his claim of PGO, someone presumably visits him at night and does not die. This would just mean another lie. Townies have no reason to do the lies that citizen has made. The ONLY reason that I can see, you have outlined: enticing a nuke steal. However, the events that transpired after rule out this possibility completely. In fact, they actually fit in very well with a mafia choosing to claim PGO in order to stop your FoS from becoming a reality. maybe you actually nabbed a mafia there and caused him to panic? oh and finally, one nuke was stolen from me also, re: this latest replacement, i guess this means waiting for a d3 modkill isn't an option, so we are back to discussing citizen vs caller. i'm trying my hardest to explain my position, and i'm pretty sure my judgment is correct here. No - you do not know I lied. You assume it, based on what you think the definition of the paranoid gun owner is in some other game. Read every post myself or Inf made - we never claimed to have the ability to hit any night checker. Ever. Had we intended the role claim to be a deterrent for a DT you think we might have mentioned that part, no? Also, you claim you do not know Caller lied yet? So you think he is both Israel and Japan? And you find it rational for him to claim DT to "stay low and not be a mafia target"? Please explain to me how this laying low business works - I thought the mafia wants to kill DTs, no? The longer this is going on the more I think you are red. A rational person would not miss these simple facts and constantly try to distort them. reading the thread will prevent posts like these i'm afraid but as long as we're absolutely clear, i will adress this too, although I really shouldn't have to. However, at this time, nobody can afford being misinformed so I will lay this out too. first of all, understand the context in which this post was made. me and opz were debating about caller, and i had fully addressed my suspicions of his lies about his anti nuke arsenal as well as his country. would you like me to pull up the post? after this was taken into account, i stated, as I am stating here again, that the main reason I suspect you over caller is because you lied about your role whereas caller did not. (at this point actually opz brought up that caller may have in fact lied about his role too, but upon further inspection this was not the case -- if it were, my entire position would have to be rethought. I have already said many times caller's claim is sketchy and I would lynch him in an instant UNTIL you showed up. This is very important which is why I'm stating it for the umpteenth time so we're all on the same page here) The other bit about the PGO -- it is an assumption, and a perfectly valid one. Just as a vigi kills at night, so does a PGO kill his visitors. It is what the role is about. It's not just mafia scum. Every single mafia site agrees.ECNet: http://wiki.ecnet.org/wiki/MafiaParanoid gun owner – If the paranoid gun owner is targeted at night for anything, whether it's a kill, investigation, or even protection, the paranoid gun owner must kill whomever targeted him Neoseeker http://wikiguides.neoseeker.com/wiki/The_Mafia_Game/Army_VeteranPerhaps a role used more frequently than the Army Veteran role, a Paranoid Gun Owner will automatically kill anyone that targets them at night for any reason, whether positive or negative. Mafiascum http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Paranoid_Gun_OwnerThe Paranoid Gun Owner, similar to the Army Veteran, involuntarily kills anyone who targets him during the night, regardless of alignment. He can be a liability to the Town for this reason, as he indiscriminately kills Cops, Doctors, etc. Would you like me to keep going? This isn't a matter of opinion. You lied about your role. Your entire argument is based on the belief that Infund lied when he mentioned the name Ace gave to his ability. It's impossible for me to justify something Ace did - he defined people's roles as he saw fit in this game. At the very least admit that neither me nor Infund explicitly claimed to have the ability to kill any night visitors. All we claimed, consistently, was to have the ability to retaliate. There was no explicit attempt to deter any DT from role-checking. I disagree. if I were to claim vigilante, I don't have to specifically claim that my role is killing people at night. There may be game-specific restrictions like I cannot kill on the first night, or can only kill twice or whatever, but either way I can kill people at night. Likewise for PGO -- by stating you are PGO, you are explicitly claiming your ability to kill any night visitor indiscriminately. maybe the restriction is you can only do it once then revert to townie (a popular variation) but the underlying mechanics is always there. as a sidenote to opz -- i have only been skimming you versus lmnop for the reason that if my judgment is correct here, there is at least one mafia between lmnop/iaaan, and very likely both of them are. am i reading this correctly, did he accuse you of being mafia? The vigilante comparison is not entirely fair, but yes, in the end I wish Ace would have chosen a different name for my ability. In the end it would be quite unfortunate it the town lost because of it. On another note - you continue to say Caller is being consistent. Please explain how his his claim that he was trying not to be a mafia target and lay low squares with claiming to be a cop, twice. Why did he think that would make him less of a target? to be fair, i'm not saying caller is being consistent. I'm saying he's the lesser of the 2 evils because at least he hasn't provably lied about his role in a way that doesn't make sense for a townie but does make sense for a mafia trying to dodge a FoS placed by opz or, would you like to pull up my relevant posts so that i may have a clearer idea of what you mean by saying "you keep saying caller is being consistent"? like i said, nobody can afford being misinformed here How does it make sense for a townie to claim Cop so as not to be a mafia target? This only makes sense for a red - since they are not afraid to be killed at night.
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Note to self - this guy love lightning.
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I can't believe you guys are still not seeing that Caller is red. It's beyond me how he can have you believe one lie after another after another simply by changing his story after any new suspicion is shed on him.
Look at micro-mafia 1. I was in the same situation with Ace there. I was right there too. Of course, being right doesn't matter if you can't persuade others, so I guess I fail and Caller wins. Too bad for the town. Sorry, I am out of patience.
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##VOTE: Elemenope
This lynching is not the one I want. JeeJee is right about one thing: when we have a confirmed liar we should vote them off. We disagree on who that is, and JeeJee's unwillingness to acknowledge Caller is at least as suspect and Inf/myself worries me and should be noted for future reference.
At the end of the day I would favor lynching me or Caller over Elemenope. Get the votes for either and I shall join you.
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On April 10 2010 04:57 JeeJee wrote:FUCK INTERNET LAGGINGP OST ALRDY Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 01:28 citi.zen wrote:On April 10 2010 01:20 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 23:55 JeeJee wrote:
to be fair i haven't gotten your clear stance on citizen's roleclaim lie. what do you make of it? at least answer this; i have done my best to explain my position as clearnly as possible. this still stands unanswered by opz, which irks me the most because this is what i base my whole argument on citizen's lynch about. it has been standing unanswered this entire time, even after i started ignoring all of my other points/queries in an effort to get your official stance on this one so there is no confusion with other points, yet somehow this still remains unanswered. please please PLEASE answer this. give me your official statement here. I have done my best to answer every single thing about my position and i believe i have done so. please return the favor by answering this one thing Well, your argument is actually two pronged: you point out my role seems inconsistent with your view of the PGO. You also say this is more inconsistent than Caller's play, and that my claim only makes sense for a red, not a townies, as opposed to Caller's claims. You thus want to vote for me instead of him. Keeping this in mind, please answer this bit: On April 10 2010 00:43 citi.zen wrote:On April 10 2010 00:37 JeeJee wrote:On April 10 2010 00:24 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:33 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 22:22 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:08 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 12:58 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 12:25 JeeJee wrote:
sorry, it seems i have missed communicating one very important point.
we have confirmation that citizen lied. we do NOT have confirmation that caller lied (at least not yet). This is what boggles me the most here, that we are voting for a 'maybe' over a 'for sure'.
let me elaborate -- citizen claims his ability is to counter nukes. Then he claims his ability is PGO. One of these is a lie. We know this. You bring up the point that he may have left out the piece about killing@night because he wanted to entice a nuke steal. I pointed out how this cannot be the case because he did not wait for night post before he changed his claim.
also
[quote]
actually i believe this would paint him in an even worse light if it were possible -- after his claim of PGO, someone presumably visits him at night and does not die. This would just mean another lie.
Townies have no reason to do the lies that citizen has made. The ONLY reason that I can see, you have outlined: enticing a nuke steal. However, the events that transpired after rule out this possibility completely. In fact, they actually fit in very well with a mafia choosing to claim PGO in order to stop your FoS from becoming a reality. maybe you actually nabbed a mafia there and caused him to panic?
oh and finally, one nuke was stolen from me
also, re: this latest replacement, i guess this means waiting for a d3 modkill isn't an option, so we are back to discussing citizen vs caller. i'm trying my hardest to explain my position, and i'm pretty sure my judgment is correct here.
No - you do not know I lied. You assume it, based on what you think the definition of the paranoid gun owner is in some other game. Read every post myself or Inf made - we never claimed to have the ability to hit any night checker. Ever. Had we intended the role claim to be a deterrent for a DT you think we might have mentioned that part, no? Also, you claim you do not know Caller lied yet? So you think he is both Israel and Japan? And you find it rational for him to claim DT to "stay low and not be a mafia target"? Please explain to me how this laying low business works - I thought the mafia wants to kill DTs, no? The longer this is going on the more I think you are red. A rational person would not miss these simple facts and constantly try to distort them. reading the thread will prevent posts like these i'm afraid but as long as we're absolutely clear, i will adress this too, although I really shouldn't have to. However, at this time, nobody can afford being misinformed so I will lay this out too. first of all, understand the context in which this post was made. me and opz were debating about caller, and i had fully addressed my suspicions of his lies about his anti nuke arsenal as well as his country. would you like me to pull up the post? after this was taken into account, i stated, as I am stating here again, that the main reason I suspect you over caller is because you lied about your role whereas caller did not. (at this point actually opz brought up that caller may have in fact lied about his role too, but upon further inspection this was not the case -- if it were, my entire position would have to be rethought. I have already said many times caller's claim is sketchy and I would lynch him in an instant UNTIL you showed up. This is very important which is why I'm stating it for the umpteenth time so we're all on the same page here) The other bit about the PGO -- it is an assumption, and a perfectly valid one. Just as a vigi kills at night, so does a PGO kill his visitors. It is what the role is about. It's not just mafia scum. Every single mafia site agrees.ECNet: http://wiki.ecnet.org/wiki/MafiaParanoid gun owner – If the paranoid gun owner is targeted at night for anything, whether it's a kill, investigation, or even protection, the paranoid gun owner must kill whomever targeted him Neoseeker http://wikiguides.neoseeker.com/wiki/The_Mafia_Game/Army_VeteranPerhaps a role used more frequently than the Army Veteran role, a Paranoid Gun Owner will automatically kill anyone that targets them at night for any reason, whether positive or negative. Mafiascum http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Paranoid_Gun_OwnerThe Paranoid Gun Owner, similar to the Army Veteran, involuntarily kills anyone who targets him during the night, regardless of alignment. He can be a liability to the Town for this reason, as he indiscriminately kills Cops, Doctors, etc. Would you like me to keep going? This isn't a matter of opinion. You lied about your role. Your entire argument is based on the belief that Infund lied when he mentioned the name Ace gave to his ability. It's impossible for me to justify something Ace did - he defined people's roles as he saw fit in this game. At the very least admit that neither me nor Infund explicitly claimed to have the ability to kill any night visitors. All we claimed, consistently, was to have the ability to retaliate. There was no explicit attempt to deter any DT from role-checking. I disagree. if I were to claim vigilante, I don't have to specifically claim that my role is killing people at night. There may be game-specific restrictions like I cannot kill on the first night, or can only kill twice or whatever, but either way I can kill people at night. Likewise for PGO -- by stating you are PGO, you are explicitly claiming your ability to kill any night visitor indiscriminately. maybe the restriction is you can only do it once then revert to townie (a popular variation) but the underlying mechanics is always there. as a sidenote to opz -- i have only been skimming you versus lmnop for the reason that if my judgment is correct here, there is at least one mafia between lmnop/iaaan, and very likely both of them are. am i reading this correctly, did he accuse you of being mafia? The vigilante comparison is not entirely fair, but yes, in the end I wish Ace would have chosen a different name for my ability. In the end it would be quite unfortunate it the town lost because of it. On another note - you continue to say Caller is being consistent. Please explain how his his claim that he was trying not to be a mafia target and lay low squares with claiming to be a cop, twice. Why did he think that would make him less of a target? to be fair, i'm not saying caller is being consistent. I'm saying he's the lesser of the 2 evils because at least he hasn't provably lied about his role in a way that doesn't make sense for a townie but does make sense for a mafia trying to dodge a FoS placed by opz or, would you like to pull up my relevant posts so that i may have a clearer idea of what you mean by saying "you keep saying caller is being consistent"? like i said, nobody can afford being misinformed here How does it make sense for a townie to claim Cop so as not to be a mafia target? This only makes sense for a red - since they are not afraid to be killed at night. first of all, one of the 'prongs' of my argument isn't that your role seems inconsistent with my view of PGO. no. again wrong. let me be perfectly clear. You claim ability X. then you claim role Y with ability Z. There isn't a matter of opinion or assumption here. I have outlined many times, google f'ing PGO if you so desire, i am tired of explaining this point for the umpteenth time. citizen has lied on his role, provably lied, and you don't give a damn. this isn't my view on PGO, this is definition of PGO. now, this lie (this provable lie) does not make sense if you are a townie. Period. it does make sense otoh if you are a mafia. this is why i am voting for you. and am upset i have only been able to convince iaaan of this fact. now onto caller's claims. again, i am distraught he isn't posting but that seems to be irrelevant now. his lies so far included lying about his country name and lying about his antinuke arsenal. both of these i have addressed and did state they look sketchy. however townies can lie with appropriate motive -- look at opz, he has lied several times and he's as good a townie as any, but this works because he had the right motive. however, citizen's lies DO NOT HAVE THE APPROPRIATE MOTIVE FOR IT from a townie point of view. moreover they are more severe and confirmed in the sense that he lied about his role. our track record indicates the only anti town player we caught was because he lied about his role! god damn i can't make it any f'ing clearer than this. and the worst part? opz has not addressed the very simple fact that citizen has provably lied about his role. this is what irks me and at this point this is the only thing i want him to answer. again i re-state: ##vote:citizen
This is retarded. If you can show me a single time in this thread where Inf or myself said we can kill night visitors i will concede to being a "proven" liar. In the meantime your argument is based entirely on the belief that Ace used the same definition of the PGO role you expect to find in every game. That is it. Ask Ace to explain why he chose the PGO name for this ability after the game if you want - I can't tell you that.
Your paragraph about Caller makes no sense, as usual. If you are willing to believe someone claimed cop so as not to be a mafia target I don't know what to say. Perhaps after the game, with a cooler head, you will see that for the absurd statement it is.
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One other thing JeeJee: if you are really sure I am lying, why not nuke me instead of OpZ? Could have been fun, da?
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EPT
