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Hypothetical Situation

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-18 03:09:48
February 18 2010 03:07 GMT
#1
So I was thinking about this in the shower, want to see what some people come up with.

Setup:


Standard game with Medic, Detective and Mafia.

The players left alive:

1 Medic
3 Town players (A,B,C)
2 Mafia goons

On an arbitrary Day, lets call it Day 4, one of the players is lynched. The Mafia Goon, aka scum had convincingly gotten his partner lynched because of circumstances. Either his partner slipped up or got caught in a lie, doesn't matter. The major proponents of this lynch were the Medic, himself and Townie A. Townies B and C eventually voted but they were a bit apprehensive.

At night time one of the Townies is killed by the remaining goon. Lets assume it is Townie C.

New state of the game:

1 Medic
Townies A and B
1 scum

So now it comes down to this. Everyone is still unsure as to who is definitely Mafia. Amazingly Townie A gets lynched because he messed up somehow and all 3 of the remaining players caught on to it. Innocent mistake.

Now the important part!

You are the Mafia goon and it's night time - what do you do? It's between the Medic and Townie B. Medic can protect himself/herself. Everyone obviously doesn't trust each other but there are varying degrees of trust.

The Mafia goon knows who the Medic is for sure due to whatever happened during the game.

Towny B doesn't know who the Medic is, and the Medic doesn't know that the Mafia Goon has deduced his role but he is thinking about that possibility heavily.


I'll put the answer I came up with in a spoiler below. Don't read it if you don't want to be "swayed" by the logic I used ^_^

Also I don't think there's really a right answer to this, but I do think there is a great way of figuring out the best play.

+ Show Spoiler [Ace's Answer] +


Ok the way I approached this is that you play not to lose, instead of trying to outright win the game with a Night Kill.

The day before in the previous lynch you along with the Medic got a scum lynched, while Townie B wasn't really for it. This isn't a dead giveaway as the Medic isn't fully on my side but he obviously leaned toward me.

So imo, whatever happens during the Night, the next day if you come out neutral with the same 3 players I have a good shot of getting Townie B lynched based on those events. This is my worst case scenario and it's a pretty good one.

With that known let's look at what I do the previous night. No matter what I should take a shot. Not shooting is a bad idea in this scenario. So who do I hit? The Medic.

The Medic isn't sure about my role. But if I hit the Townie and the Medic happens to protect him I'm in a rough spot. The Medic is now 100% sure I'm a goon, and now instead of going into the day with Townie B in a bit of trouble I have to argue against the Medic. I've also got to now convince Townie B I'm the medic instead of the easier path of convincing the Medic Townie B is Mafia since he was already leaning towards me. Hitting Townie B at night gives out too much information if I fail.

However hitting the Medic is a huge advantage. Needless to say if the Medic protects me the game is over. But in this situation I shouldn't even care. Just hit the medic, if he protects himself it doesn't matter - he gets no new information. We go back into the day phase with the same setup, the medic knows one of us is Mafia and says he got hit last night. I don't even bother to argue and counter-claim him because I don't need to. Townie B is the one I want lynched. If Townie B doesn't instantly deduce I have to be Mafia via this role claim and argue this point he's instantly gone. If he does argue now we're right back to square one with the Medic leaning towards me.


Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Chezinu
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States7447 Posts
February 18 2010 03:18 GMT
#2
I would hit the remaining townie. If he is protected I would roleclaim medic to the remaining townie and convince him that I'm the true medic. I obvious caught the last guy. Then I would spam GG mafia throughout the thread to sound convincing. I would be like taunt taunt taunt!!! It would be fun...
lol, clueless in The Prism!
JeeJee
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Canada5652 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-18 03:20:49
February 18 2010 03:19 GMT
#3
i would go with a nokill night given that if you fuck up your night kill, you're going to lose for sure -- and you might have good chances of getting B lynched next day if you don't.

otoh, when the day comes and everyone sees there was a nokill.. hmm tough, but i think if you can argue it well, this is probably best
(\o/)  If you want it, you find a way. Otherwise you find excuses. No exceptions.
 /_\   aka Shinbi (requesting a name change since 27/05/09 ☺)
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
February 18 2010 03:22 GMT
#4
@JeeJee: If everyone sees there's a no kill the Medic just knows the Mafia didn't take a shot. If you as scum don't say this first you are in a bit of a spot. And since you'd be roleclaiming Medic at this point you just kinda screwed yourself over imo.
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Chezinu
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States7447 Posts
February 18 2010 03:23 GMT
#5
It all depends on who the last remaining people are...
lol, clueless in The Prism!
Iaaan
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada578 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-18 03:28:14
February 18 2010 03:26 GMT
#6
at first it seemed like a bit of a wine in front of me situation, but then thinking about the messages the players get when they are protected, it would be better to hit the medic, so that they don't both get a message saying "you were saved," and "you saved someone," or whatever, because then you still have a chance the next day weather you win or not.

The problem with Chezinu's thing, the medic could just message the townie that he has protected him at the right time (like right before the day post), and bam the townie sides with the medic. The medic is basically gambling anyway; if he protects the mafia the town auto loses, so role claiming to the one the medic thinks is a townie before the day post wouldn't be risking anything more.

Edit: @ Ace, yeah your answer is good. lol
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
February 18 2010 03:28 GMT
#7
+ Show Spoiler +
Medic's options:

Prot self: 100% chance of success
Prot fellow townie: 50% chance of success (might prot mafia instead)

Let's say that the probability the medic will prot self is P(s). The probability the medic will attempt to prot his teammate is 1-P(s).

If the mafia hits the medic, his hit will succeed with a probability of 1-P(s); if he hits the other townie, the hit will succeed with a probability of 1-0.5*(1-P(s)) which is equivalent to 0.5+0.5P(s).

If this scenario was a game you could repeat many times, the mafia will choose the path of least resistance, i.e. hit the target against which he'd have the highest chance of success. If the medic is very likely to prot himself, his teammate will die; if the medic is very likely to prot his teammate, he'll die himself. There is an equilibrium at the point in which the mafia's chances of success are equal regardless of who he hits:

1-P(s) = 0.5 + 0.5P(s)
P(s) = 0.33

And the mafia's chance of success is 67% regardless of who he hits. Likewise, the medic will cover the target that will most likely negate the mafia's hit.

P(m) is the chance the mafia will hit the medic, and 1-P(m) is the chance he'll hit the green townie. The medic's payoff for protecting himself is P(m), and his payoff for protecting the townie is 0.5*(1-P(m)) = 0.5 - 0.5P(m). To keep the medic guessing, the mafia will equate the payoff for the medic's actions:

P(m) = 0.5 - 0.5*P(m)
P(m) = 0.33

The mafia will hit the medic 33% of the time, and the medic will prot himself 33% of the time. Mafia's chance of success is 67%.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
February 18 2010 03:31 GMT
#8
@Chezinu: Explain that, I don't get it.

@Iaaan: Agreed with everything except part of the second paragraph. Why would the Townie auto side with the Medic? The Medic isn't confirmed so why should the Townie believe him? Even so, let's say the medic does do that.

Mafia goon hits the medic. If the medic prots the townie, game over.

If the Medic prots himself, he's fucked now because he just lied to the Townie. So the townie says how did you take a hit when you said you were going to protect me? Mafia goon sees this and says because he isn't the doctor, I protected you. The goon now has leeway over Townie B to get the Medic lynched because he just got caught in a lie he didn't have to make.
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-18 03:47:48
February 18 2010 03:47 GMT
#9
On February 18 2010 12:28 Zato-1 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Medic's options:

Prot self: 100% chance of success
Prot fellow townie: 50% chance of success (might prot mafia instead)


Let's say that the probability the medic will prot self is P(s). The probability the medic will attempt to prot his teammate is 1-P(s).

If the mafia hits the medic, his hit will succeed with a probability of 1-P(s); if he hits the other townie, the hit will succeed with a probability of 1-0.5*(1-P(s)) which is equivalent to 0.5+0.5P(s).

If this scenario was a game you could repeat many times, the mafia will choose the path of least resistance, i.e. hit the target against which he'd have the highest chance of success. If the medic is very likely to prot himself, his teammate will die; if the medic is very likely to prot his teammate, he'll die himself. There is an equilibrium at the point in which the mafia's chances of success are equal regardless of who he hits:

1-P(s) = 0.5 + 0.5P(s)
P(s) = 0.33

And the mafia's chance of success is 67% regardless of who he hits. Likewise, the medic will cover the target that will most likely negate the mafia's hit.

P(m) is the chance the mafia will hit the medic, and 1-P(m) is the chance he'll hit the green townie. The medic's payoff for protecting himself is P(m), and his payoff for protecting the townie is 0.5*(1-P(m)) = 0.5 - 0.5P(m). To keep the medic guessing, the mafia will equate the payoff for the medic's actions:

P(m) = 0.5 - 0.5*P(m)
P(m) = 0.33

The mafia will hit the medic 33% of the time, and the medic will prot himself 33% of the time. Mafia's chance of success is 67%.



+ Show Spoiler +


I've got an issue with using probability in Mafia games - this is a weighted scenario. Probability of success isn't really useful for the Mafia goon because imo the goon isn't playing to win - he's playing so he doesn't outright lose. So the likelihood of calculating his hits are different.

But ok I'm going to try and follow.

The Medic starts out with a 50% chance of successfully protecting his teammate is throwing me off. Imo shouldn't it just be 33% since it's an equal likelihood that *anyone* can be hit? Remember you have no idea which one is the goon. If you did then yes, you are certainly down to just a 50% chance between 2 players getting hit. However since any of the 2 remaining players can be Mafia that means all 3 of you can be hit. So isn't it a 1/3rd shot?

Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
February 18 2010 03:55 GMT
#10
ok, what if you dont know which is the medic and they know who you are, is it still 50/50 on whether or not you win? or don't lose... w/e... what are the odds here?
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-18 04:05:38
February 18 2010 04:04 GMT
#11
If you as the scum don't know who is the medic and honestly have no shot at guessing then you shoot "the medic" anyway or really, seriously think about not shooting at all. Remember this is a weighted situation where you've already gotten your partner killed - you look pro-town. I'm actually kind of leading towards not shooting as the best option if I think I can convince "the medic" to lynch Townie B.

The good news is that the night goes by with a no kill, everyone realizes this unless the medic lies about being hit. In this case I act surprised, but also supportive of the claim. I obviously say Townie B must be Mafia because he didn't counter-claim (what a legit townie would do) and go from there. As long as I make no indication of knowing the Medic is obviously lying by flat out ignoring it I think I have a shot.
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-18 05:11:24
February 18 2010 05:10 GMT
#12
could you act as if you were the medic (during the no hit) and convince townie b that the other person is the mafia with the statement like "i know ONE of you is mafia, because i protected myself and got hit..." then the medic may be forced to roleclaim medic second, and the townie will think that the real medic was the one who did a hit during the no hit and you protected yourself....


right?
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
February 18 2010 05:55 GMT
#13
Yea that's highly possible. The only reason I wouldn't try to fake claim medic is that not only is Townie B in a better position to get lynched, but what if Townie B says ok - prove it. What were your night actions? The real medic has an easier time because even if I can make up night actions, can I make up motives with those actions that make sense? So while it's possible it's also more work (assuming the Townie is even somewhat smart).
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
February 18 2010 06:13 GMT
#14
what if the voting is a 3 way tie?
no lynch?
everyone dies?
first to vote wins?
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
February 18 2010 06:21 GMT
#15
If there's a no lynch situation we move on to night again. I get another shot.
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
February 18 2010 06:59 GMT
#16
if you went into the day and one of them voted for the other, would you vote with them or for them?
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
February 18 2010 07:20 GMT
#17
I'd still side with the Medic. Since I'm acting pro-town even if I see them fighting I have to stay consistent in my argument. If I flip and turn on the Medic just like that, it looks kinda scummy doesn't it? That could backfire and end up with both of them calling me out.

Of course, if there isn't a voting deadline and it's Majority Lynch AND their both dumb enough to vote early then I'd immediately place a vote and get one of them offed ^_^
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
February 18 2010 08:52 GMT
#18
but would you go with the first voter or the second
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
February 18 2010 10:21 GMT
#19
On February 18 2010 12:47 Ace wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2010 12:28 Zato-1 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Medic's options:

Prot self: 100% chance of success
Prot fellow townie: 50% chance of success (might prot mafia instead)


Let's say that the probability the medic will prot self is P(s). The probability the medic will attempt to prot his teammate is 1-P(s).

If the mafia hits the medic, his hit will succeed with a probability of 1-P(s); if he hits the other townie, the hit will succeed with a probability of 1-0.5*(1-P(s)) which is equivalent to 0.5+0.5P(s).

If this scenario was a game you could repeat many times, the mafia will choose the path of least resistance, i.e. hit the target against which he'd have the highest chance of success. If the medic is very likely to prot himself, his teammate will die; if the medic is very likely to prot his teammate, he'll die himself. There is an equilibrium at the point in which the mafia's chances of success are equal regardless of who he hits:

1-P(s) = 0.5 + 0.5P(s)
P(s) = 0.33

And the mafia's chance of success is 67% regardless of who he hits. Likewise, the medic will cover the target that will most likely negate the mafia's hit.

P(m) is the chance the mafia will hit the medic, and 1-P(m) is the chance he'll hit the green townie. The medic's payoff for protecting himself is P(m), and his payoff for protecting the townie is 0.5*(1-P(m)) = 0.5 - 0.5P(m). To keep the medic guessing, the mafia will equate the payoff for the medic's actions:

P(m) = 0.5 - 0.5*P(m)
P(m) = 0.33

The mafia will hit the medic 33% of the time, and the medic will prot himself 33% of the time. Mafia's chance of success is 67%.



+ Show Spoiler +


I've got an issue with using probability in Mafia games - this is a weighted scenario. Probability of success isn't really useful for the Mafia goon because imo the goon isn't playing to win - he's playing so he doesn't outright lose. So the likelihood of calculating his hits are different.

But ok I'm going to try and follow.

The Medic starts out with a 50% chance of successfully protecting his teammate is throwing me off. Imo shouldn't it just be 33% since it's an equal likelihood that *anyone* can be hit? Remember you have no idea which one is the goon. If you did then yes, you are certainly down to just a 50% chance between 2 players getting hit. However since any of the 2 remaining players can be Mafia that means all 3 of you can be hit. So isn't it a 1/3rd shot?


+ Show Spoiler +
50% is the chance that he will successfully place his protection upon his fellow townie if he tries to do so, because he will either target the townie or the mafia. This is regardless of who the mafia hits- even if the mafia hits the medic, this doesn't guarantee the medic's success or failure in figuring out who his fellow townie is and protecting him properly.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
February 18 2010 11:01 GMT
#20
behavior and game feel would sway it from 50% imo
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Qatol
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
United States3165 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-02-18 12:25:22
February 18 2010 12:05 GMT
#21
+ Show Spoiler +
You hit the medic. If you hit the other player, you risk giving additional information to the medic, in which case you automatically lose. If you hit the medic and the hit gets blocked, the medic doesn't learn any additional information and then you can try to talk your way into the win during the day. If you hit the other player and your hit is blocked, basically the only way to win I can see is if you pull off a fake medic roleclaim after the hit (and get the real medic lynched). I'd personally prefer to have the flexibility to lynch the more suspicious of the 2 players rather than confirming one of the players, thus forcing a lynch attempt of the other.
Obviously, this is subject to change based on the players, RoL as medic in particular comes to mind, but assuming players I don't have history on, I'd hit the medic.


EDIT: Now that I look at Ace's answer, we wound up with pretty similar solutions. I didn't think about + Show Spoiler +
how people lean based on that earlier vote
, but otherwise the logic pretty much looks the same.
Uff Da
d3_crescentia
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4054 Posts
February 22 2010 02:03 GMT
#22
Hmm. Being fairly new to mafia overall, I figured that: + Show Spoiler +
hitting the medic would be the best, because hitting Townie B runs the risk of additional information being fed into the game, whereas hitting the medic just maintains the status quo in the worst case scenario.

Having not read the scenario carefully enough in my first run, I was at a loss after that. If the Medic protected himself and continued to do so what would happen? The only way to really win the game would be to try to convince Townie B to lynch the Medic. Getting Townie B lynched might set up a draw.
Reading through Ace's answer, I hadn't really considered the previous votes all too much, though I'm pretty happy with my reasoning capabilities thus far.
once, not long ago, there was a moon here
L
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada4732 Posts
February 22 2010 02:06 GMT
#23
+ Show Spoiler +
RoL as medic
ROFL.
The number you have dialed is out of porkchops.
Malongo
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Chile3472 Posts
February 22 2010 04:05 GMT
#24
Looking all the setup from the medic pov i think i hit the townie. Medic has only 50/50 of guessing who is mafia and worst 33% of blocking the hit giving the town "chances" to win. Medic is a lot more likely to protect himself or you in the case you posted. Plus it also has to do with some pride: if the medic blocks a hit on you or on him it is going to be a good play from him. If he protects the townie and fails he is going to be an asshole.
Help me! im still improving my English. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. M. G.
Fulgrim
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States560 Posts
February 22 2010 21:49 GMT
#25
If I were the medic, I would prot myself so I could be sure I wasn't proting the remaining mafia, although I still agree with your logic that the medic should be hit, because then he won't know who hit him that night.
One does not simply walk into mordor
chaoser
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States5541 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 00:44:03
October 25 2011 00:41 GMT
#26
+ Show Spoiler +
Shoot the medic obviously. Either I win the game or nothing happens and I have to convince a mislynch. Better than hitting the townie. In that case either I win or I got a medic who saved a townie, I'm insta lynched. Not shooting is the same as shooting the medic except without the chance of insta winning.

Though if I was in a situation where it was LYLO, I was townie and Ace was somehow still alive, it's be an obvious lynch =]


EDIT: yayy I was right =]
Haven't you heard? I'm not an ex-progamer. I'm not a poker player. I'm not an admin of the site. I'm mother fucking Rekrul.
kitaman27 *
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9244 Posts
October 25 2011 00:48 GMT
#27
Convince the medic to protect you, shoot yourself, and win with style.
I'm better than dirt. Well, most kinds of dirt. I mean not that fancy store bought dirt. That stuffs loaded with nutrients. I... I can't compete with that stuff.
chaoser
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States5541 Posts
October 25 2011 00:50 GMT
#28
On October 25 2011 09:48 kitaman27 wrote:
Convince the medic to protect you, shoot yourself, and win with style.


lolol +1
Haven't you heard? I'm not an ex-progamer. I'm not a poker player. I'm not an admin of the site. I'm mother fucking Rekrul.
bumatlarge
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States4567 Posts
October 25 2011 01:17 GMT
#29
speifically tell medic that whater they do, DONT PROTECT YOU. 100% NO-NO. Don't say "Oh protect yourself", make sure that they whatever they do, they can not protect you.

Choose not to shoot, claim vet and the shot, lynch whoever the fuck you want.

Kita's idea is good.
Together but separate, like oatmeal
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
October 25 2011 01:20 GMT
#30
If you claim Vet you'll be lynched the next day. 1 Medic is alive and you tell them do not protect you and then have an alibi for not getting shot the next day? Thats a bit insane
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
hp.Shell
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2527 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-12 00:57:04
December 12 2011 00:22 GMT
#31
+ Show Spoiler +
This is a example of a dilemma seen infrequently in chase stories. I can't remember the name of the dilemma (if it even has one) but I know an extremely similar case appears in the movie Collateral, specifically this scene starting at 11:00 and ending at 13:08:

There are two iterations of this dilemma seen in these two minutes, but both are dealt with the same way, and Tom Cruise's character chooses correctly in both situations because he recognizes the strategy involved. Though not 100% the same as the medic / townie case, it is similar enough in that there are two paths for the medic to take, and two paths for the goon to take. The goon must take into account the medic's choice in his own, and it is because the medic has to make a choice "first" that the goon has an advantage.

The first choice happens when the good guys get to the bottom floor. There is a diverging of paths: take the street or the subway? The most important thing here is the potential for escape. The street offers the greatest potential for escape, because the good guys can just keep running and hide in a manhole if necessary, or they can quickly grab a taxi. The subway offers the least potential for escape because there is no way to know whether a train will be there on time for the good guys to keep running, and there is a high chance that they will be caught up to if they take this route. But they know that the "goon," Tom Cruise, is close behind. So Jamie Foxx attempts to trick Tom Cruise by taking the path that offers the least potential for escape, the subway.

The second choice is between the upper (same level) or lower (different level) trains. Again, the medic wishes to fool the goon by picking the least obvious choice. But the medic just chose the least obvious choice. If, then, the goon has picked correctly between the street and subway, then the goon is onto the medic's game and it is to the medic's advantage to pick the most obvious choice, thereby attempting to trick the goon again.

The second choice is more difficult, but the principle is the same. At first, the good guys run down the stairs so as not to be spotted, in case the goon has chosen correctly. Then, the upper train arrives first. The most obvious choice for escape in this situation is the upper train, which the good guys will pick to trick the goon. It is always the medic's advantage to attempt to trick the goon. This is why Tom Cruise is able to choose correctly, though it takes some brainpower as you can tell by the video.

In the first case the street choice represents the medic taking action to defend himself. The subway represents the medic acting to protect the townie. The medic isn't sure whether the goon knows he is the medic. So the medic can assume one of two things:
1. The goon doesn't know that he is the medic, or
2. The goon does know that he is the medic.
The medic notices that in the first case, it doesn't matter who he decides to protect, as the result will be a coin flip. So he decides that it is best to assume [2], that the goon knows he is the medic. The medic will most likely then decide it is in his best interest to trick the goon by protecting the townie. In the medic's mind, it is most likely that the goon will decide to kill the medic if he knows his role.

The goon's situation happens to be far superior. By assuming the medic will try to trick the goon, the choice becomes as simple as the one between the street and the subway in Collateral. The medic will pick the least obvious route of escape, which is to protect the townie. The goon can then choose to kill the medic, and he will probably be right.

Edit: This can be considered WIFOM, that's the name I was trying to think of.
Edit2: + Show Spoiler +
Also if the final day begins with only the medic and the goon alive, it's a draw.
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