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Join the LiquidLegends 2017 Worlds Pick'em Group!
Ban bets!!Ban bets will continue for the duration of Worlds. You can place bet at any phase of Worlds; on individual games, series, whatever your heart desires. Bans will be enacted the day after Worlds ends, to ensure everyone can still post on LL while Worlds is ongoing. glhf~ - Winners in bold- better, better's win condition, bettee [ban duration for loser]- Yorbon, EDG fails to make it out of groups, vs DarkCore [1 week] - Sleight, Fnatic doesn't make it out of groups, vs AlterKot [2:1 weeks] - Apex, Gigabyte getting out of groups as a 1st place seed + TSM will finish 1st in their groups + Samsung will fail to qualify from their group + C9 will get out of their groups, vs JimmiC [1 week] - geript, Korean teams will win a combined 17 or more games in Groups, vs Gahlo [1 month] - geript, NA teams will win a combined 7 or less games in Groups, vs Torchise [1 month] - zer0das, SKT doesn't win Worlds, vs no one [1 year] - Zato-1, NA teams combined wins will be greater than or equal to EU teams combined wins, vs Yorbon [1 month] |
On October 29 2017 18:33 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2017 17:26 DarkCore wrote:My theory behind the Ryze pick into Galio was that RNG wanted Xiaohu to be able to exert a similar map pressure that Faker's Galio had in the other games. This only partly worked out. At best, I assume RNG took the Noc pick because it looked great on paper and had the novelty factor this Worlds from that Gigabyte Marines game. Much like how Wolf incorporated Blitz/Leona into his pool after SKT's series against MSF. Noc pick was really awful though. Leona/Blitz work because they can always make plays, but Noc is almost trolling right now, other junglers are clearly better. RNG really threw that game in the draft phase, especially because MLXG playde pretty poorly in the latter half of the series, Noc and Lee are big playmakers that need to go off or they become a liability. Disagree. IMO the noct/lee picks weren't bad at all. Noct is supposed to snowball toplane (making Galio unable to counter the ganks), and Lee is supposed to snowball the whole game, because SKT got Jarvan, and you don't want to play a game against SKT that you haven't snowballed. I still think Ryze into Galio to counter his roams is silly. Like, we all know toplane Jayce, AD Kennen, Jax, Irelia, Camille, etc take TP, but they don't want to use that TP at the same time an enemy Maokai, Mega Gnar, Naut, etc is TPing. They take TP because they probably are going to die a few times earlygame and want to not lose EXP/gold, and also to splitpush without 100% giving up a 4v5 at baron. A full HP Jayce TPing to baron at the same time as a full HP Maokai (basically Ryze and Galio ulting somewhere) is a terrible loss for the Jayce. Jayce pushes in and bullies maokai, then takes towers, can Ryze do anything to Galio lategame? Nah.
Your points aren't wrong, I am just pointing out the problems with the champions in hindsight. MLXG seemed to break down during the course of the series, and that means playing Noc/Lee is high risk, not an ideal combination.
I don't quite understand what you wanted to say about Ryze/Jayce. No meta champions can reasonably kill Galio in the lategame 1vs1, he's just busted. RNG decided to play around that by matching his laning phase roams with Ryze, or at least deterring Faker from certain plays. It didn't really work, but it's my theory behind why they decided to draft him. Ryze can't really kill Galio past a certain point, but then again, who can.
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well.. korean gonna do korean thing, which is going into finals of world
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KR looks weak but still gets 2 teams to the finals.
Poor WE, thought they had a chance, but SSG is just so solid.
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Maybe if other teams keep letting Galio through draft hue.
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The streak of no non-korean team eliminating a Korean team continues.
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Can't say the gap is closing but this was like the first year it didn't grow. Small victories, yay!
I'd say SSG should be the favorite in the final but Faker is a god so I'm not gonna say anything.
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On October 29 2017 18:59 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2017 18:33 cLutZ wrote:On October 29 2017 17:26 DarkCore wrote:My theory behind the Ryze pick into Galio was that RNG wanted Xiaohu to be able to exert a similar map pressure that Faker's Galio had in the other games. This only partly worked out. At best, I assume RNG took the Noc pick because it looked great on paper and had the novelty factor this Worlds from that Gigabyte Marines game. Much like how Wolf incorporated Blitz/Leona into his pool after SKT's series against MSF. Noc pick was really awful though. Leona/Blitz work because they can always make plays, but Noc is almost trolling right now, other junglers are clearly better. RNG really threw that game in the draft phase, especially because MLXG playde pretty poorly in the latter half of the series, Noc and Lee are big playmakers that need to go off or they become a liability. Disagree. IMO the noct/lee picks weren't bad at all. Noct is supposed to snowball toplane (making Galio unable to counter the ganks), and Lee is supposed to snowball the whole game, because SKT got Jarvan, and you don't want to play a game against SKT that you haven't snowballed. I still think Ryze into Galio to counter his roams is silly. Like, we all know toplane Jayce, AD Kennen, Jax, Irelia, Camille, etc take TP, but they don't want to use that TP at the same time an enemy Maokai, Mega Gnar, Naut, etc is TPing. They take TP because they probably are going to die a few times earlygame and want to not lose EXP/gold, and also to splitpush without 100% giving up a 4v5 at baron. A full HP Jayce TPing to baron at the same time as a full HP Maokai (basically Ryze and Galio ulting somewhere) is a terrible loss for the Jayce. Jayce pushes in and bullies maokai, then takes towers, can Ryze do anything to Galio lategame? Nah. Your points aren't wrong, I am just pointing out the problems with the champions in hindsight. MLXG seemed to break down during the course of the series, and that means playing Noc/Lee is high risk, not an ideal combination. I don't quite understand what you wanted to say about Ryze/Jayce. No meta champions can reasonably kill Galio in the lategame 1vs1, he's just busted. RNG decided to play around that by matching his laning phase roams with Ryze, or at least deterring Faker from certain plays. It didn't really work, but it's my theory behind why they decided to draft him. Ryze can't really kill Galio past a certain point, but then again, who can.
My point of ryze/to jayce vs galio/maokai is that even though they have ~ the same mobility, in practice jayce/ryze don't want to counter the mobility of galio/maokai, that is what the galio/maokai wants. Therefore, its not a good pressure point for that champ. Jayce's pressure point against maokai is turret pressure (he also is not likely to die), son if you are playing against galio you also want a favorable point to pay around yourself. Malz, as it was pointed out can do that in team fights. Taliah is not perfect, but she creates terrain, possibly isolating galio and his dive buddy from his DPS. Etc.
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I was hoping for a 3-0 but this will do
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On October 20 2017 07:48 Sleight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2017 06:54 dsyxelic wrote:On October 20 2017 03:08 cLutZ wrote:On October 19 2017 18:07 DarkCore wrote:
Jax hasn't been able to split push pretty much all game, and Malz just shuts him down in team fights. LZ picked an interesting comp that just seems to be hard countered by SSG's. That is just Jax in teamfights. Its incredibly hard to get off melee autos in LOL. His best use is in cleanup turning a 2-1 into a 5-1. It was the job of the 4 man, particularly thresh to just not get into fights (great Gragas ban by SSG). Pray had bad positioning at important times as well. On October 19 2017 18:51 Jindo wrote:
Dayummm SSG playing so well. LZ getting crushed Getting outpicked so hard. Lulu-Varus lane, allegedly lane dominant, no CS lead AGAINST TARIC. Jarvan who gets stalled then outscaled by Sej, Ori is too passive for this meta (Taliyah is the superior version of Ryze). The only good pick was Cho. FFS, in G3 Varus losing lane to Trist-Taric again? Cuvee with the 2nd good Shen of the tournament, this is how you make Shen a good pick. Overall P/B is not why Samsung won, but LZ needed to be 20%+ better than Samsung to win each game based on P/B. Jarvan and Varus are deadweight picks if they aren't going forward, but they couldn't setup because Varus was never winning lane and pushing. Splitpushing champions need to get ahead, but that means you need lane priority in mid so your splitpusher can be aggro (which they never had based on picks). I'd say they put a lot of weight on Cuzz be be muuuuch better than Ambition, which he did not do. Yeah SSG outdrafted. Still don't get you hating on Varus Lulu though. There's apparently also been a shift in the Varus build which is not built for lane at all (Pray and some people have been doing E max and warlord's bloodlust). Not to mention gorilla plays the most e-girl version of lulu and other supports possible as he is the only support at worlds running full gp5 quints and seals. Plus gorilla played like shit as lulu lol. Just look at the stats throughout group stage if you want to see how they did in lane, its not a coincidence varus' GD@10 and CSD@10 was the highest. Not a fan of lulu/varus going bitch builds. Like all of that on top of a doran's shield vs a melee support, that's kind of a joke really. And yeah shen is good especially in capable hands. As CT said "Shen is fucking op with good teams". Varus is really oppressive against Twitch and Kog. He is even against Trist and Cait but has better midgame teamfight. Even with Pray and Gorilla phoning it in during game 3, he still looked pretty decent in terms of damage and utility. Varus' stock is rising.
Seems relevant. Varus stunting hard today.
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On October 30 2017 04:18 Sleight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2017 07:48 Sleight wrote:On October 20 2017 06:54 dsyxelic wrote:On October 20 2017 03:08 cLutZ wrote:On October 19 2017 18:07 DarkCore wrote:
Jax hasn't been able to split push pretty much all game, and Malz just shuts him down in team fights. LZ picked an interesting comp that just seems to be hard countered by SSG's. That is just Jax in teamfights. Its incredibly hard to get off melee autos in LOL. His best use is in cleanup turning a 2-1 into a 5-1. It was the job of the 4 man, particularly thresh to just not get into fights (great Gragas ban by SSG). Pray had bad positioning at important times as well. On October 19 2017 18:51 Jindo wrote:
Dayummm SSG playing so well. LZ getting crushed Getting outpicked so hard. Lulu-Varus lane, allegedly lane dominant, no CS lead AGAINST TARIC. Jarvan who gets stalled then outscaled by Sej, Ori is too passive for this meta (Taliyah is the superior version of Ryze). The only good pick was Cho. FFS, in G3 Varus losing lane to Trist-Taric again? Cuvee with the 2nd good Shen of the tournament, this is how you make Shen a good pick. Overall P/B is not why Samsung won, but LZ needed to be 20%+ better than Samsung to win each game based on P/B. Jarvan and Varus are deadweight picks if they aren't going forward, but they couldn't setup because Varus was never winning lane and pushing. Splitpushing champions need to get ahead, but that means you need lane priority in mid so your splitpusher can be aggro (which they never had based on picks). I'd say they put a lot of weight on Cuzz be be muuuuch better than Ambition, which he did not do. Yeah SSG outdrafted. Still don't get you hating on Varus Lulu though. There's apparently also been a shift in the Varus build which is not built for lane at all (Pray and some people have been doing E max and warlord's bloodlust). Not to mention gorilla plays the most e-girl version of lulu and other supports possible as he is the only support at worlds running full gp5 quints and seals. Plus gorilla played like shit as lulu lol. Just look at the stats throughout group stage if you want to see how they did in lane, its not a coincidence varus' GD@10 and CSD@10 was the highest. Not a fan of lulu/varus going bitch builds. Like all of that on top of a doran's shield vs a melee support, that's kind of a joke really. And yeah shen is good especially in capable hands. As CT said "Shen is fucking op with good teams". Varus is really oppressive against Twitch and Kog. He is even against Trist and Cait but has better midgame teamfight. Even with Pray and Gorilla phoning it in during game 3, he still looked pretty decent in terms of damage and utility. Varus' stock is rising. Seems relevant. Varus stunting hard today.
Meh. In G2 his weakness was apparant, but Malz was super. I do think the theoretical Malz-Varus combo is smart. You ult the tank and enemy DPS can't walk up to counter you. The problem for Varus, normally, is that he tickles tanks, and that showed in G3 (in this game they just used Taliah wall to prevent Cho from ever being relevant). Malz does not tickle tanks, he melts them, particularly as a midlaner, so you actually get value out of the theoretical value because its a 2 ult for kill trade.
Rakan clearly carried G4 with a galio assist.
In G2-4 its clear that SSG thought they were clearly better at Sup, Mid, & Top (probably also jungle) and just didn't want to allow a botlane snowball to spread. Crown could outroam Xiye while not falling behind. Cuvee would win lane 10/10 times without intervention. Ben is basically an ardent censor bot, while CoreJJ is dynamic. Varus is a bit of a wall.
That said, the use of Rageblade Varus in G3 was the best of the tournament. If you can consistently pop off during that spike to that level, then its a great pick. Its happened like 1 or 2 times. That isn't that interesting to me.
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Do you need more proof than bang actually winning lane by picking the champion?
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I'd do week long banbets that Varus will not be a world championship skin champion.
Edit, I'll even give 2:1 odds
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I think Kog will get it for the ADC position, because Twitch already has the Samsung skin. Cait and Varus already have very good skins, Kogs are OK. Either him or Tristana.
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United States37500 Posts
ADC skin will prob be from one of Trist, Varus, or Xayah. Esp considering Bang's and Ruler's champ pools.
First two champs were heavily picked by both players. Xayah might be an option simply of her pairing with Rakan for team skins.
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EPT
