[EU LCS] Summer Split 2015 Week 7 - Page 26

On July 11 2015 06:00 TitusVI wrote:
The ethnic group of asians share a work ethic that makes them better in video games then the rest of the groups on earth. gg.

On July 11 2015 06:10 Redox wrote:

Could as well say more of them are ready to waste their life with video games instead of getting a real job. :D

Seriously, at least when I compare NA and EU (also in sc2) much of the difference I attribute to American guys having to go to work at earlier years or take their college seriously. Meanwhile Euros have way more time available because of free education etc.

On July 11 2015 05:46 Redox wrote:

Meh its not like the 2 Koreans are better than the other 3 players on the team. Fnatic's success is also largely about having a good coach and a rigid structure with less freedom for players. That is the biggest thing they have in common with korean teams and what other western teams lack.
Talent is often overrated anyway compared to other things.

On July 11 2015 06:33 Azarkon wrote:


Fnatic last year wasn't as successful with five EU players and importantly, I think all the analysts agree that the Huni upgrade has been critical to Fnatic finishing first in two splits.

H2K, the 3rd best EU team, also has a Korean mid-laner, and he is also considered top 2-3 in the league.

I do agree that EU has talent of equal caliber to these players but they are very few, while in Korea they look to be abundant. Quantity is a huge advantage in this case because it raises the level of competition and lessens the % of burdens in top teams. The latter effect needs to be given greater attention when it comes to imports, because every player counts and the game is getting to a level where you have to have no burdens to win.

On July 11 2015 05:38 Azarkon wrote:


And it only took them two Korean imports to do it. Amazing what sort of difference that made over the last two splits. Of course, getting a competent ADC also helps.

Still, the fact that Korean imports are able to fly to the five major regions and subsequently take the top slot of every region except LMS, speaks to what is effectively a talent gap. After all, just a year ago people were saying that Korean imports would never work in LoL because of the language requirements. Yet, it looks as though that wasn't as big of a deal as the raw skill difference these imports brought. Such a result has to make people think hard about why NA, EU, and China, with a combined player population that has to be 10+ times the size of Korea, hasn't been able to match up in talent. Infrastructure arguments just don't cut it now, except insofar as they deal with talent scouting/development.

I wonder when TSM is going to spend their next import slot. Soon, I think.

On July 11 2015 07:22 kongoline wrote:

arent there plenty of koreans doing poor in NA lcs? wasnt there korean team who failed to qualify to lcs also ?

On July 11 2015 07:06 Redox wrote:

I could name even more teams that failed horribly after importing Koreans though.

On July 11 2015 08:28 Azarkon wrote:


Give me the list. I say this because NA LCS top 6 is basically five teams with Korean imports vs. CLG, while 2/3 top teams in EU LCS have Korean imports.

On July 11 2015 05:55 Saradin wrote:
To focus so much on innate talent being the difference really comes off as effectively suggesting that the Korean ethnicity is, somehow, more biologically suited to this game than the rest of the human species.
You probably don't actually mean to imply that idea, but connecting groups (instead of individuals) with 'talent' is too casually done by the league community, relative to its implications if more thought is put into it.

On July 11 2015 07:06 Redox wrote:

worth watching for hilarity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtk0V6LTG80

On July 11 2015 09:23 Azarkon wrote:


I don't think it has to do with Korean biology.

There's a fairly effective argument against it. Had biology been the difference, then we ought to see Koreans born in America, Canada, etc. be a greater force than they are. Don't get me wrong, they are a force, but so are other Asian-Americans/Asian-Canadians. For example, the Vietnamese - Hai, Wildturtle, Shiptur, Balls, Kiwikid, Slooshi, Reginald, etc. The list of Korean Americans/Canadians in NA LCS historically hasn't been higher, even though the populations of Korean and Vietnamese in NA are around the same, and they perform as well as other NA LCS players internationally, so biology isn't an useful explanation. This is especially the case because we don't import players from Vietnam at all, so it's not though Vietnamese Americans/Canadians are a special group due to imports.

In EU, it is similar though to a lesser degree because of different immigration profiles. Asian-Europeans are also a larger % than their population, but not specifically Koreans. For example, I am told Yellowstar is Cambodian-European, while Kasing is Chinese-European. Not sure there even is a Korean European in EU LCS presently but of course their population is a lot lower in Europe.

To this end, I don't find arguments about biology very useful.

But what had previous been the obvious answer - infrastructure - is also looking to be less and less useful, so we have to turn to cultural arguments, ultimately.

On July 12 2015 03:24 Saradin wrote:


Then stop using the word 'talent'.
'Talent' specifically refers to the innate aptitudes a person has for something. Something they're born with. To say that someone is more talented at something, is to say that he was born with the tools to excel at that activity, be it general or more specific physical and/or mental attributes (for example, Doublelift has a talent for clicking the mouse accurately and quickly). It is explicitly referring to their biology. 'Talent vs hard work' is a common dichotomy after all; 'hard work' here is everything that isn't innate. Talent is akin to the nature in the nature vs nurture dichotomy. (Edit: To correct myself; 'hard work' is specific as well. It's the conscious effort aspect of the individual; environment is a 3rd party here)
To say that a ethnic, or national since 'Korean' can be used for either, group is more talented at something is to say that this group has a higher than average rate of people who are just born to be (ie biologically) suited for it. As if natural selection just so happened to guide them this way.
'Talent' does not refer to anything else. The social/cultural environment, the training environment, economic realities, everything else that isn't a physical or mental trait that the person is born with, fall outside of what 'talent' addresses.

The word that the league community needs to use more often is skill/skilled, or ability/able. Those are more descriptive of the end result. The culmination of everything; innate gifts, the work put in, the culture one is raised in, the education received. It's what we spectators witness.

On July 13 2015 09:21 Azarkon wrote:
The fact of the matter is, we don't actually know what it is that makes these players higher skilled, so to insist that it's "hard work" is overly judgmental.