Please guys, Elements gonna win worlds and Denial gonna win challenger scene. They only split up because they thought only winning half of it is boring.
On July 10 2015 02:17 Hotfyr wrote: I think you guys are overestimating Denial. They have Woolite to throw the games.
It's less overestimating and more just hoping for hilarity. Also EL can lose to anyone regardless of skill. Sometimes they just decide to not play league of legends.
Both teams just suck at reacting to enemy. Roccat lets Elements take an objective in sideline and by the time they are ready to react it's way too late. But when Roccat finally decide to group and push, Elements are so suprised that by the time they are in position to defend their mid inhib is down.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA THAT ROCCAT COORDINATION HOLY SHIT find the white team.
On July 10 2015 03:07 Numy wrote: How many games has Sivir lost these last two weeks in lcs.
She was 5-1 last week in NA. The one was T8 into Dig. 11-6 last two weeks in NA. 5-5 in EU. EU bans her more often, and Fnatic gave her up 2 out of 4 times, oddly enough. Skews things a little.
Support Shen and Lucian into Corki/Ali sounds stupid. The range on this H2K team is terrible and sets up Jayce super hard. A lot depends on Reignover's Rengar compared to Grag. If Fnatic gets a swap and plays it as well as usual, the game's mostly cleanup from there.
On July 10 2015 04:21 Caiada wrote: Shit teams play swaps poorly. Good teams give their tops some gold. Somehow this means ADC is unimportant, because reasons.
they're not unimportant, they're the least important.
if you're building a team and you're given the choice of best top, jg, mid, adc, and sup, no one will take the adc.
or another example: you're given X amount of money to build a team. I would absolutely spend the least on adc.
having a strong adc is simply not as important as having strong players on other roles. though of course having a good adc is obviously better than having a bad adc.
I think it's more the definition of a "good" adc changes in the meta. There are guys that are "good" adcs when their team builds around them but in the current meta building a team around an ADC is just not a smart idea. So that means the good ADC are now people that can do damage while their team focuses on other members.
E max Shen is quite good with the energy changes, even out of the top lane. If you get ahead as support and can get tanky enough without lane farm, all the better.
I wouldn't say Huni is better than Odo or that Odo is better than Huni. They kind of different in what they do and both really good at it. Huni is explosive, can take over games and go huge where as Odo is the more quiet workhorse kind of top laner that is just a rock for his team.
On July 10 2015 04:45 nafta wrote: odoamne is a very good top laner but using this game as an example of why he would be better than huni is simply retarded
And that's true, but your verbiage is abrasive as all hell.
The only games that are lost from minute one are games where, well, you keep doing stupid bullshit that would never work unless you were ahead/even like Fnatic always is.
Thankfully Febiven and Rekkles are way more consistent and Jayce is the 2nd or 1st best mid pick in the game.
On July 10 2015 04:44 Numy wrote: I wouldn't say Huni is better than Odo or that Odo is better than Huni. They kind of different in what they do and both really good at it. Huni is explosive, can take over games and go huge where as Odo is the more quiet workhorse kind of top laner that is just a rock for his team.
woah get out with your logic we're supposed to have knee jerk reactions to this game
The results of this game do not lie, odoamne is 4.5 times better than huni!
On July 10 2015 04:53 Redox wrote: Astonishing how well Fnatic does in the fights with a rather useless Rengar. Well its also on H2K messing up.
Fnatic's teamfighting is pretty impressive. It helps that H2K is messing up but I think weaker teams wouldn't really punish H2K as hard so that's a decent sign at least.
On July 10 2015 04:44 Numy wrote: I wouldn't say Huni is better than Odo or that Odo is better than Huni. They kind of different in what they do and both really good at it. Huni is explosive, can take over games and go huge where as Odo is the more quiet workhorse kind of top laner that is just a rock for his team.
woah get out with your logic we're supposed to have knee jerk reactions to this game
But what does that even mean? Did you watch Huni's laning phase this game? He's doing so many small efficient things, it's crazy. I don't believe in having an "explosive playstyle", it's all about what role you have in the comp and how many resources you get.
On a different note, holy shit how the fuck is Fnatic so good. Is it really just having 3 prime western players + good imports? Is it something about their coaching? It's just unbelievable how far ahead they are of everyone.
I don't think giving up Jayce is ever a good idea, especially if red's already taken Sivir off the board and you're against Fnatic. Between that and Loulex and Fnatic being the best teamfighters in the west, despite their super-predictable rotations, this is a hard game even starting with an advantage.
On July 10 2015 04:44 Numy wrote: I wouldn't say Huni is better than Odo or that Odo is better than Huni. They kind of different in what they do and both really good at it. Huni is explosive, can take over games and go huge where as Odo is the more quiet workhorse kind of top laner that is just a rock for his team.
woah get out with your logic we're supposed to have knee jerk reactions to this game
But what does that even mean? Did you watch Huni's laning phase this game? He's doing so many small efficient things, it's crazy. I don't believe in having an "explosive playstyle", it's all about what role you have in the comp and how many resources you get.
On a different note, holy shit how the fuck is Fnatic so good. Is it really just having 3 prime western players + good imports? Is it something about their coaching? It's just unbelievable how far ahead they are of everyone.
It's a bit of everything. Although they one of the few teams in the West that you can look at and say "wow every one of their players is top class". Most other top teams have 1-3 players that are just not great.
As for the "explosive playstyle". Even games where Huni is behind he still tries to always look for aggressive players and teleports. They mostly work out for now but it's still a different mindset than Odo. You don't really see Huni ever play the "frontline" tank type role. Even when he gets something like Gnar he'll still play that aggressive style. I like it personally, feel too many league teams just roll over into a defensive ball the minute things aren't 100% favourable instead of actively trying to come back like Fnatic/Huni does.
jokes aside loulex lost them playoffs and he still plays like this is there really noone better they can get?
Is there anything better besides Shook, lol. k0u is busy losing in NACS, Amin probs needs to finish school and that's about it.
Rip H2K, good throw.
I dunno like pick a random soloq jungler.At worst he would perform like this.He was 2 levels behind a rengar who died while ganking while gragas didn't even try to gank.
On July 10 2015 05:06 Numy wrote: Dam Rekkles laying down so much. You answering way more than what he asked but kudos, really well spoken and honest.
i'll always be a fan of rekkles the person. i mean i like him as a player too but i have biases elsewhere for adc. he seems like a great and genuine dude tho.
I heard he has an enormous ego, but I guess that's standard (and it was pretty long ago).
On July 10 2015 05:06 Numy wrote: Dam Rekkles laying down so much. You answering way more than what he asked but kudos, really well spoken and honest.
i'll always be a fan of rekkles the person. i mean i like him as a player too but i have biases elsewhere for adc. he seems like a great and genuine dude tho.
He seems like a genuine mature kid. I didn't really know much about him other than just watching his play so pleasantly surprised at how he is. Guess it helps that he's around rather mature players and had a taste of failure already but managed to rebound.
On July 10 2015 05:04 Majax wrote: I give 100% of the credit for this win to Yellowstar the shotcaller and anti-tilt master.
Should also include Febiven's shockblasts which are as accurate as can be.
Yeah. But without YS I'm pretty sure the whole team would have tilted and just straight out lost when they were 0-4. So yeah, , Febi did a fantastic job but the only reason they didn't lost the game was Yellowstar, Rekkles even akknowledged it in the interview.
Anyway, I'm a Yellowstar fanboy, and I'm quite happy right now.
On July 10 2015 05:06 Numy wrote: Dam Rekkles laying down so much. You answering way more than what he asked but kudos, really well spoken and honest.
i'll always be a fan of rekkles the person. i mean i like him as a player too but i have biases elsewhere for adc. he seems like a great and genuine dude tho.
He seems like a genuine mature kid. I didn't really know much about him other than just watching his play so pleasantly surprised at how he is. Guess it helps that he's around rather mature players and had a taste of failure already but managed to rebound.
He's definitely matured since his time in EL. Think that fail season was pretty good for him. Didn't expect that sort of interview from him.
I was like "ok you see the Gragas coming, split up now." Nope they all stacked perfectly on top of each other as if they thought this way they could share the dmg.
i think fredy just hit a hotstreak + meta with his best champs being good picks at worlds and now we're looking at baseline fredy.
i mean he was a feeder on aaa and sk until that playoffs run. probably would've gone deeper if svenskeren didn't get suspended but i also suspect if he got out of groups he would've gotten shit on in the knockout rounds
On July 10 2015 06:00 suicideyear wrote: i think fredy just hit a hotstreak + meta with his best champs being good picks at worlds and now we're looking at baseline fredy.
i mean he was a feeder on aaa and sk until that playoffs run. probably would've gone deeper if svenskeren didn't get suspended but i also suspect if he got out of groups he would've gotten shit on in the knockout rounds
On July 10 2015 06:00 suicideyear wrote: i think fredy just hit a hotstreak + meta with his best champs being good picks at worlds and now we're looking at baseline fredy.
i mean he was a feeder on aaa and sk until that playoffs run. probably would've gone deeper if svenskeren didn't get suspended but i also suspect if he got out of groups he would've gotten shit on in the knockout rounds
Not exactly a stacked group for top lane.
that too. if he's playing in a group vs any 2 of gogoing, looper, koro1 or heart i don't think he would've gotten away with half the shit he was able to do vs tpa or tsm.
i mean, hell, fredy was playing the darien role as close to "tactical feeding" as we'll ever see it in league of legends when they beat tsm in the last game. 1/8/9
H2K has top or comfort picks basically all around, minus Loulex. Loulex is kinda irrelevant when their teamfight is so insane. I don't rate Jankos very highly here either.
Lovely hook from Vander. I wish he and Rallez had a good team.
Roccat is so weird, first they lose to Giants but beat Origen in one week and now this... impossible to predict their results (unless they're playing against Fnatic)
Dexter's problem is he learns terribly slowly. But when he can play the same shit that was good in S4, he looks solid, especially vs a team as slow as UoL.
Jwaow has no wards so he TPs into the middle of nowhere and can't figure out how to quickly get anywhere. Lol.
I'm disappointed in H2K. And I'm still sure EL's passivity has a good chance of losing them this unless UoL waltzes into the Froggen/Tabzz meatgrinder some more.
On July 11 2015 04:10 snow2.0 wrote: That feel when your AP carry gets taunted by shen 4 times in 30 seconds :^)
He's a Ryze with the worst top/support outside of relegations, the fuck's he supposed to do vs 3 mass movement speed buffs, lol.
Exactly. Why was he even trying to walk away. He's machinegunryze, can't they focus down the bloody annoying shen instead of getting dicked on in a 20-30 second long fight?
I highly disagree leaving kalista open, especially if you're going to ban sivir... But at the same time I really love the Ezreal trap origen pulled, ez was not banned, but with those picks it's like he was, yasuo pick lurking waiting for it.
Rekkles is 50cs up and everyone else is now even or better. Vs a top 2 or 3 team. When they were losing significantly before.
That's a joke.
Edit: Fnatic needed to contest that earlier or send Huni bot earlier and TP in when they get a good fight. Thankfully they fight much much better than OG.
On July 11 2015 05:15 SagaZ wrote: there's just no winning against fnatic such dominance
Of course there is. Fnatic was rather lucky OG went for a 3v5 engage amd threw the game. Not sure why people are praising them so much right after the game where they showed the most weakness so far.
On July 11 2015 05:15 SagaZ wrote: there's just no winning against fnatic such dominance
Of course there is. Fnatic was rather lucky OG went for a 3v5 engage amd threw the game. Not sure why people are praising them so much right after the game where they showed the most weakness so far.
Because coming back from 6000 gold twice in a row is very impressive. Why be such a buzzkill? What do you get out of it
Fnatic's drafting is careless. Feels like they're trying different things for their own sake. Meanwhile, the better teams are starting to figure them out a little. Weak or reckless early games, an early game reliance on Huni/Reignover, the 'huni go bot while we ward baron' stuff. We'll see where they actually lie at playoffs/worlds.
On July 11 2015 05:15 SagaZ wrote: there's just no winning against fnatic such dominance
Of course there is. Fnatic was rather lucky OG went for a 3v5 engage amd threw the game. Not sure why people are praising them so much right after the game where they showed the most weakness so far.
Because coming back from 6000 gold twice in a row is very impressive. Why be such a buzzkill? What do you get out of it
Just trying to gauge Fnatic's strength. Obviously Fnatic is beatable if the advantages you can gain over them in the laning phase are used better.
On July 11 2015 05:21 Caiada wrote: Fnatic's drafting is careless. Feels like they're trying different things for their own sake. Meanwhile, the better teams are starting to figure them out a little. Weak or reckless early games, an early game reliance on Huni/Reignover, the 'huni go bot while we ward baron' stuff. We'll see where they actually lie at playoffs/worlds.
I don't think playoffs will tell you anything, honestly. But if Fnatic can bomb out in groupstage at Worlds to Taiwanese team after going 24-0, I will approve.
On July 11 2015 05:18 krndandaman wrote: peke played pretty well love me some good old peke tf
??
Him ulting into the whole Fnatic team was whatlost that crucial teamfight.
or gold carding the janna instead of kalista out of the bush
But be backdoored! Lol Xpeke played that so poorly. Don't know if him or Soaz were worse at fighting. At least Fnatic are good at punishing those kind of misplays. That's one positive from this game.
The port in Fnatic's one really terrible drag fight pretty much ensured the cleanup. It was definitely one of his better games. This was a game mostly lost on macro and bad overall calls.
On July 11 2015 05:15 SagaZ wrote: there's just no winning against fnatic such dominance
Of course there is. Fnatic was rather lucky OG went for a 3v5 engage amd threw the game. Not sure why people are praising them so much right after the game where they showed the most weakness so far.
Because after x times seeing them being "lucky" maybe we could agree that they are just really decisive and on point when it comes to punishing ennemy mistakes, miles ahead of any other european team, and that's why they are 14-0.
On July 11 2015 05:15 Mensol wrote: fnatic is easily the best team LCS ever had.
And it only took them two Korean imports to do it. Amazing what sort of difference that made over the last two splits. Of course, getting a competent ADC also helps.
Still, the fact that Korean imports are able to fly to the five major regions and subsequently take the top slot of every region except LMS, speaks to what is effectively a talent gap. After all, just a year ago people were saying that Korean imports would never work in LoL because of the language requirements. Yet, it looks as though that wasn't as big of a deal as the raw skill difference these imports brought. Such a result has to make people think hard about why NA, EU, and China, with a combined player population that has to be 10+ times the size of Korea, hasn't been able to match up in talent. Infrastructure arguments just don't cut it now, except insofar as they deal with talent scouting/development.
I wonder when TSM is going to spend their next import slot. Soon, I think.
On July 11 2015 05:15 Mensol wrote: fnatic is easily the best team LCS ever had.
And it only took them two Korean imports to do it. Amazing what sort of difference that made over the last two splits. Of course, getting a competent ADC also helps.
Still, the fact that Korean imports are able to fly to the five major regions and subsequently take the top slot of every region except LMS, speaks to what is effectively a talent gap. After all, just a year ago people were saying that Korean imports would never work in LoL because of the language requirements. Yet, it looks as though that wasn't as big of a deal as the raw skill difference these imports brought. Such a result has to make people think hard about why NA, EU, and China, with a combined player population that has to be 10+ times the size of Korea, hasn't been able to match up in talent. Infrastructure arguments just don't cut it now, except insofar as they deal with talent scouting/development.
I wonder when TSM is going to spend their next import slot. Soon, I think.
Meh its not like the 2 Koreans are better than the other 3 players on the team. Fnatic's success is also largely about having a good coach and a rigid structure with less freedom for players. That is the biggest thing they have in common with korean teams and what other western teams lack. Talent is often overrated anyway compared to other things.
To focus so much on innate talent being the difference really comes off as effectively suggesting that the Korean ethnicity is, somehow, more biologically suited to this game than the rest of the human species. You probably don't actually mean to imply that idea, but connecting groups (instead of individuals) with 'talent' is too casually done by the league community, relative to its implications if more thought is put into it.
On July 11 2015 06:00 TitusVI wrote: The ethnic group of asians share a work ethic that makes them better in video games then the rest of the groups on earth. gg.
Could as well say more of them are ready to waste their life with video games instead of getting a real job. :D
Seriously, at least when I compare NA and EU (also in sc2) much of the difference I attribute to American guys having to go to work at earlier years or take their college seriously. Meanwhile Euros have way more time available because of free education etc.
On July 11 2015 06:00 TitusVI wrote: The ethnic group of asians share a work ethic that makes them better in video games then the rest of the groups on earth. gg.
Could as well say more of them are ready to waste their life with video games instead of getting a real job. :D
Seriously, at least when I compare NA and EU (also in sc2) much of the difference I attribute to American guys having to go to work at earlier years or take their college seriously. Meanwhile Euros have way more time available because of free education etc.
That's true. At least for the ones not going to China.
On July 11 2015 05:15 Mensol wrote: fnatic is easily the best team LCS ever had.
And it only took them two Korean imports to do it. Amazing what sort of difference that made over the last two splits. Of course, getting a competent ADC also helps.
Still, the fact that Korean imports are able to fly to the five major regions and subsequently take the top slot of every region except LMS, speaks to what is effectively a talent gap. After all, just a year ago people were saying that Korean imports would never work in LoL because of the language requirements. Yet, it looks as though that wasn't as big of a deal as the raw skill difference these imports brought. Such a result has to make people think hard about why NA, EU, and China, with a combined player population that has to be 10+ times the size of Korea, hasn't been able to match up in talent. Infrastructure arguments just don't cut it now, except insofar as they deal with talent scouting/development.
I wonder when TSM is going to spend their next import slot. Soon, I think.
Meh its not like the 2 Koreans are better than the other 3 players on the team. Fnatic's success is also largely about having a good coach and a rigid structure with less freedom for players. That is the biggest thing they have in common with korean teams and what other western teams lack. Talent is often overrated anyway compared to other things.
Fnatic last year wasn't as successful with five EU players and importantly, I think all the analysts agree that the Huni upgrade has been critical to Fnatic finishing first in two splits.
H2K, the 3rd best EU team, also has a Korean mid-laner, and he is also considered top 2-3 in the league.
I do agree that EU has talent of equal caliber to these players but they are very few, while in Korea they look to be abundant. Quantity is a huge advantage in this case because it raises the level of competition and lessens the % of burdens in top teams. The latter effect needs to be given greater attention when it comes to imports, because every player counts and the game is getting to a level where you have to have no burdens to win.
On July 11 2015 05:15 Mensol wrote: fnatic is easily the best team LCS ever had.
And it only took them two Korean imports to do it. Amazing what sort of difference that made over the last two splits. Of course, getting a competent ADC also helps.
Still, the fact that Korean imports are able to fly to the five major regions and subsequently take the top slot of every region except LMS, speaks to what is effectively a talent gap. After all, just a year ago people were saying that Korean imports would never work in LoL because of the language requirements. Yet, it looks as though that wasn't as big of a deal as the raw skill difference these imports brought. Such a result has to make people think hard about why NA, EU, and China, with a combined player population that has to be 10+ times the size of Korea, hasn't been able to match up in talent. Infrastructure arguments just don't cut it now, except insofar as they deal with talent scouting/development.
I wonder when TSM is going to spend their next import slot. Soon, I think.
Meh its not like the 2 Koreans are better than the other 3 players on the team. Fnatic's success is also largely about having a good coach and a rigid structure with less freedom for players. That is the biggest thing they have in common with korean teams and what other western teams lack. Talent is often overrated anyway compared to other things.
Fnatic last year wasn't as successful with five EU players and importantly, I think all the analysts agree that the Huni upgrade has been critical to Fnatic finishing first in two splits.
H2K, the 3rd best EU team, also has a Korean mid-laner, and he is also considered top 2-3 in the league.
I do agree that EU has talent of equal caliber to these players but they are very few, while in Korea they look to be abundant. Quantity is a huge advantage in this case because it raises the level of competition and lessens the % of burdens in top teams. The latter effect needs to be given greater attention when it comes to imports, because every player counts and the game is getting to a level where you have to have no burdens to win.
I could name even more teams that failed horribly after importing Koreans though.
Btw (almost) all analysts agreed that Fnatic had "lost the off season". Their new players were supposed to be individually rather weak. :D Now they are called individually great because of their wins as a team.
On July 11 2015 05:15 Mensol wrote: fnatic is easily the best team LCS ever had.
And it only took them two Korean imports to do it. Amazing what sort of difference that made over the last two splits. Of course, getting a competent ADC also helps.
Still, the fact that Korean imports are able to fly to the five major regions and subsequently take the top slot of every region except LMS, speaks to what is effectively a talent gap. After all, just a year ago people were saying that Korean imports would never work in LoL because of the language requirements. Yet, it looks as though that wasn't as big of a deal as the raw skill difference these imports brought. Such a result has to make people think hard about why NA, EU, and China, with a combined player population that has to be 10+ times the size of Korea, hasn't been able to match up in talent. Infrastructure arguments just don't cut it now, except insofar as they deal with talent scouting/development.
I wonder when TSM is going to spend their next import slot. Soon, I think.
arent there plenty of koreans doing poor in NA lcs? wasnt there korean team who failed to qualify to lcs also ?
On July 11 2015 05:15 Mensol wrote: fnatic is easily the best team LCS ever had.
And it only took them two Korean imports to do it. Amazing what sort of difference that made over the last two splits. Of course, getting a competent ADC also helps.
Still, the fact that Korean imports are able to fly to the five major regions and subsequently take the top slot of every region except LMS, speaks to what is effectively a talent gap. After all, just a year ago people were saying that Korean imports would never work in LoL because of the language requirements. Yet, it looks as though that wasn't as big of a deal as the raw skill difference these imports brought. Such a result has to make people think hard about why NA, EU, and China, with a combined player population that has to be 10+ times the size of Korea, hasn't been able to match up in talent. Infrastructure arguments just don't cut it now, except insofar as they deal with talent scouting/development.
I wonder when TSM is going to spend their next import slot. Soon, I think.
arent there plenty of koreans doing poor in NA lcs? wasnt there korean team who failed to qualify to lcs also ?
Besides Seraph, everyone is doing very fine. But Seraph is proven shitter, who cares.
Quantic example is pretty tricky, because it's well-known that they lost those 3 games in a row unexpectedly because of not playing from teamhouse, and I think they would've qualified otherwise even with Locodoco as adc, considering what happened later in promotions.
On July 11 2015 05:15 Mensol wrote: fnatic is easily the best team LCS ever had.
And it only took them two Korean imports to do it. Amazing what sort of difference that made over the last two splits. Of course, getting a competent ADC also helps.
Still, the fact that Korean imports are able to fly to the five major regions and subsequently take the top slot of every region except LMS, speaks to what is effectively a talent gap. After all, just a year ago people were saying that Korean imports would never work in LoL because of the language requirements. Yet, it looks as though that wasn't as big of a deal as the raw skill difference these imports brought. Such a result has to make people think hard about why NA, EU, and China, with a combined player population that has to be 10+ times the size of Korea, hasn't been able to match up in talent. Infrastructure arguments just don't cut it now, except insofar as they deal with talent scouting/development.
I wonder when TSM is going to spend their next import slot. Soon, I think.
arent there plenty of koreans doing poor in NA lcs? wasnt there korean team who failed to qualify to lcs also ?
The top six teams in NA LCS are:
TSM - Korean support Gravity - Korean jungler+Korean mid Dignitas - Korean AD+Korean top+Korean jungler Liquid - Korean AD+Korean mid CLG - no Korean imports TiP - Korean top+Korean jungler
I'd say that they're doing pretty well. Sure, there's TDK which has four Koreans yet sucks, but when the best NA team that has no Korean imports is CLG, there's not a lot of room to argue. There are, obviously, bad Korean players and bad Korean teams, and therefore bad Korean imports. But on the whole, imports have been successful.
On July 11 2015 05:15 Mensol wrote: fnatic is easily the best team LCS ever had.
And it only took them two Korean imports to do it. Amazing what sort of difference that made over the last two splits. Of course, getting a competent ADC also helps.
Still, the fact that Korean imports are able to fly to the five major regions and subsequently take the top slot of every region except LMS, speaks to what is effectively a talent gap. After all, just a year ago people were saying that Korean imports would never work in LoL because of the language requirements. Yet, it looks as though that wasn't as big of a deal as the raw skill difference these imports brought. Such a result has to make people think hard about why NA, EU, and China, with a combined player population that has to be 10+ times the size of Korea, hasn't been able to match up in talent. Infrastructure arguments just don't cut it now, except insofar as they deal with talent scouting/development.
I wonder when TSM is going to spend their next import slot. Soon, I think.
Meh its not like the 2 Koreans are better than the other 3 players on the team. Fnatic's success is also largely about having a good coach and a rigid structure with less freedom for players. That is the biggest thing they have in common with korean teams and what other western teams lack. Talent is often overrated anyway compared to other things.
Fnatic last year wasn't as successful with five EU players and importantly, I think all the analysts agree that the Huni upgrade has been critical to Fnatic finishing first in two splits.
H2K, the 3rd best EU team, also has a Korean mid-laner, and he is also considered top 2-3 in the league.
I do agree that EU has talent of equal caliber to these players but they are very few, while in Korea they look to be abundant. Quantity is a huge advantage in this case because it raises the level of competition and lessens the % of burdens in top teams. The latter effect needs to be given greater attention when it comes to imports, because every player counts and the game is getting to a level where you have to have no burdens to win.
I could name even more teams that failed horribly after importing Koreans though.
Give me the list. I say this because NA LCS top 6 is basically five teams with Korean imports vs. CLG, while 2/3 top teams in EU LCS have Korean imports.
On July 11 2015 05:15 Mensol wrote: fnatic is easily the best team LCS ever had.
And it only took them two Korean imports to do it. Amazing what sort of difference that made over the last two splits. Of course, getting a competent ADC also helps.
Still, the fact that Korean imports are able to fly to the five major regions and subsequently take the top slot of every region except LMS, speaks to what is effectively a talent gap. After all, just a year ago people were saying that Korean imports would never work in LoL because of the language requirements. Yet, it looks as though that wasn't as big of a deal as the raw skill difference these imports brought. Such a result has to make people think hard about why NA, EU, and China, with a combined player population that has to be 10+ times the size of Korea, hasn't been able to match up in talent. Infrastructure arguments just don't cut it now, except insofar as they deal with talent scouting/development.
I wonder when TSM is going to spend their next import slot. Soon, I think.
Meh its not like the 2 Koreans are better than the other 3 players on the team. Fnatic's success is also largely about having a good coach and a rigid structure with less freedom for players. That is the biggest thing they have in common with korean teams and what other western teams lack. Talent is often overrated anyway compared to other things.
Fnatic last year wasn't as successful with five EU players and importantly, I think all the analysts agree that the Huni upgrade has been critical to Fnatic finishing first in two splits.
H2K, the 3rd best EU team, also has a Korean mid-laner, and he is also considered top 2-3 in the league.
I do agree that EU has talent of equal caliber to these players but they are very few, while in Korea they look to be abundant. Quantity is a huge advantage in this case because it raises the level of competition and lessens the % of burdens in top teams. The latter effect needs to be given greater attention when it comes to imports, because every player counts and the game is getting to a level where you have to have no burdens to win.
I could name even more teams that failed horribly after importing Koreans though.
Give me the list. I say this because NA LCS top 6 is basically five teams with Korean imports vs. CLG, while 2/3 top teams in EU LCS have Korean imports.
Winterfox, CLG, Dig last split, Quantic, Coast, Team Fusion, Millenium, MYM, (some Brazilian teams I think).
What you can see from some of those examples that a certain player (like Ryu or Helios) will look bad on one team while looking good on another. Or even look different on one split compared to another (Dig). The surroundings are at least as important as the individual player is my point here.
I'm drive bying my dissapointment in Loulex I spent so long fighting with wonder that he was the best jungler and he's done a good job showing me how much of a fraud I am LOL
On July 11 2015 05:55 Saradin wrote: To focus so much on innate talent being the difference really comes off as effectively suggesting that the Korean ethnicity is, somehow, more biologically suited to this game than the rest of the human species. You probably don't actually mean to imply that idea, but connecting groups (instead of individuals) with 'talent' is too casually done by the league community, relative to its implications if more thought is put into it.
I don't think it has to do with Korean biology.
There's a fairly effective argument against it. Had biology been the difference, then we ought to see Koreans born in America, Canada, etc. be a greater force than they are. Don't get me wrong, they are a force, but so are other Asian-Americans/Asian-Canadians. For example, the Vietnamese - Hai, Wildturtle, Shiptur, Balls, Kiwikid, Slooshi, Reginald, etc. The list of Korean Americans/Canadians in NA LCS historically hasn't been higher, even though the populations of Korean and Vietnamese in NA are around the same, and they perform as well as other NA LCS players internationally, so biology isn't an useful explanation. This is especially the case because we don't import players from Vietnam at all, so it's not though Vietnamese Americans/Canadians are a special group due to imports.
In EU, it is similar though to a lesser degree because of different immigration profiles. Asian-Europeans are also a larger % than their population, but not specifically Koreans. For example, I am told Yellowstar is Cambodian-European, while Kasing is Chinese-European. Not sure there even is a Korean European in EU LCS presently but of course their population is a lot lower in Europe.
To this end, I don't find arguments about biology very useful.
But what had previous been the obvious answer - infrastructure - is also looking to be less and less useful, so we have to turn to cultural arguments, ultimately.
Well, it's a good analysis whith the facts we had then : - Unknown n00b korean import top - GameOver - Tiltmaster - Unknown n00b french adc - Yellowstar
Nobody could have predicted they would came along so well.
On July 11 2015 05:55 Saradin wrote: To focus so much on innate talent being the difference really comes off as effectively suggesting that the Korean ethnicity is, somehow, more biologically suited to this game than the rest of the human species. You probably don't actually mean to imply that idea, but connecting groups (instead of individuals) with 'talent' is too casually done by the league community, relative to its implications if more thought is put into it.
I don't think it has to do with Korean biology.
There's a fairly effective argument against it. Had biology been the difference, then we ought to see Koreans born in America, Canada, etc. be a greater force than they are. Don't get me wrong, they are a force, but so are other Asian-Americans/Asian-Canadians. For example, the Vietnamese - Hai, Wildturtle, Shiptur, Balls, Kiwikid, Slooshi, Reginald, etc. The list of Korean Americans/Canadians in NA LCS historically hasn't been higher, even though the populations of Korean and Vietnamese in NA are around the same, and they perform as well as other NA LCS players internationally, so biology isn't an useful explanation. This is especially the case because we don't import players from Vietnam at all, so it's not though Vietnamese Americans/Canadians are a special group due to imports.
In EU, it is similar though to a lesser degree because of different immigration profiles. Asian-Europeans are also a larger % than their population, but not specifically Koreans. For example, I am told Yellowstar is Cambodian-European, while Kasing is Chinese-European. Not sure there even is a Korean European in EU LCS presently but of course their population is a lot lower in Europe.
To this end, I don't find arguments about biology very useful.
But what had previous been the obvious answer - infrastructure - is also looking to be less and less useful, so we have to turn to cultural arguments, ultimately.
Then stop using the word 'talent'. 'Talent' specifically refers to the innate aptitudes a person has for something. Something they're born with. To say that someone is more talented at something, is to say that he was born with the tools to excel at that activity, be it general or more specific physical and/or mental attributes (for example, Doublelift has a talent for clicking the mouse accurately and quickly). It is explicitly referring to their biology. 'Talent vs hard work' is a common dichotomy after all; 'hard work' here is everything that isn't innate. Talent is akin to the nature in the nature vs nurture dichotomy. (Edit: To correct myself; 'hard work' is specific as well. It's the conscious effort aspect of the individual; environment is a 3rd party here) To say that a ethnic, or national since 'Korean' can be used for either, group is more talented at something is to say that this group has a higher than average rate of people who are just born to be (ie biologically) suited for it. As if natural selection just so happened to guide them this way. 'Talent' does not refer to anything else. The social/cultural environment, the training environment, economic realities, everything else that isn't a physical or mental trait that the person is born with, fall outside of what 'talent' addresses.
The word that the league community needs to use more often is skill/skilled, or ability/able. Those are more descriptive of the end result. The culmination of everything; innate gifts, the work put in, the culture one is raised in, the education received. It's what we spectators witness.
On July 11 2015 05:55 Saradin wrote: To focus so much on innate talent being the difference really comes off as effectively suggesting that the Korean ethnicity is, somehow, more biologically suited to this game than the rest of the human species. You probably don't actually mean to imply that idea, but connecting groups (instead of individuals) with 'talent' is too casually done by the league community, relative to its implications if more thought is put into it.
I don't think it has to do with Korean biology.
There's a fairly effective argument against it. Had biology been the difference, then we ought to see Koreans born in America, Canada, etc. be a greater force than they are. Don't get me wrong, they are a force, but so are other Asian-Americans/Asian-Canadians. For example, the Vietnamese - Hai, Wildturtle, Shiptur, Balls, Kiwikid, Slooshi, Reginald, etc. The list of Korean Americans/Canadians in NA LCS historically hasn't been higher, even though the populations of Korean and Vietnamese in NA are around the same, and they perform as well as other NA LCS players internationally, so biology isn't an useful explanation. This is especially the case because we don't import players from Vietnam at all, so it's not though Vietnamese Americans/Canadians are a special group due to imports.
In EU, it is similar though to a lesser degree because of different immigration profiles. Asian-Europeans are also a larger % than their population, but not specifically Koreans. For example, I am told Yellowstar is Cambodian-European, while Kasing is Chinese-European. Not sure there even is a Korean European in EU LCS presently but of course their population is a lot lower in Europe.
To this end, I don't find arguments about biology very useful.
But what had previous been the obvious answer - infrastructure - is also looking to be less and less useful, so we have to turn to cultural arguments, ultimately.
Then stop using the word 'talent'. 'Talent' specifically refers to the innate aptitudes a person has for something. Something they're born with. To say that someone is more talented at something, is to say that he was born with the tools to excel at that activity, be it general or more specific physical and/or mental attributes (for example, Doublelift has a talent for clicking the mouse accurately and quickly). It is explicitly referring to their biology. 'Talent vs hard work' is a common dichotomy after all; 'hard work' here is everything that isn't innate. Talent is akin to the nature in the nature vs nurture dichotomy. (Edit: To correct myself; 'hard work' is specific as well. It's the conscious effort aspect of the individual; environment is a 3rd party here) To say that a ethnic, or national since 'Korean' can be used for either, group is more talented at something is to say that this group has a higher than average rate of people who are just born to be (ie biologically) suited for it. As if natural selection just so happened to guide them this way. 'Talent' does not refer to anything else. The social/cultural environment, the training environment, economic realities, everything else that isn't a physical or mental trait that the person is born with, fall outside of what 'talent' addresses.
The word that the league community needs to use more often is skill/skilled, or ability/able. Those are more descriptive of the end result. The culmination of everything; innate gifts, the work put in, the culture one is raised in, the education received. It's what we spectators witness.
Just because Koreans are not biologically > other groups in eSports, does not indicate, therefore, that they don't have a bigger, deeper talent pool. What you're missing here is the idea of Koreans with higher talent wanting to choose eSports as a career than those in other cultures. That is to say, the US might have the same % of overall talented people, but a much, much smaller % of them go into eSports, therefore resulting in the present talent deficit.
The fact of the matter is, we don't actually know what it is that makes these players higher skilled, so to insist that it's "hard work" is overly judgmental. Also, while hard work is separated from nature, the ability to work hard is liable to also have a biological component to it. Laziness is not entirely a matter of choice.
To this end, the standard word for what I'm describing is, in fact, 'talent pool' and I'm not going to make up a new word just because I don't think Koreans are biologically skilled at eSports as a group. When you hear 'talent pool' being used in sports and eSports, it encompasses both nature and nurture, because it is ultimately just a statement about the end result: the presence of a higher quantity/quality of skilled players in a region, whatever the cause.
On July 13 2015 09:21 Azarkon wrote: The fact of the matter is, we don't actually know what it is that makes these players higher skilled, so to insist that it's "hard work" is overly judgmental.
Actually, we have a lot of different ideas : - Extremly low ping (~9) - Large player base (the largest beside china) - competitive soloQ - at high level, usually very short games ("open mid" is quite usual when a lane is feeding, they have no problem surrendering a lost game to move on to the next)
That's how they become very skilled. How they become champions is up to the organisations.
On July 13 2015 09:21 Azarkon wrote: The fact of the matter is, we don't actually know what it is that makes these players higher skilled, so to insist that it's "hard work" is overly judgmental.
Actually, we have a lot of different ideas : - Extremly low ping (~9) - Large player base (the largest beside china) - competitive soloQ - at high level, usually very short games ("open mid" is quite usual when a lane is feeding, they have no problem surrendering a lost game to move on to the next)
That's how they become very skilled. How they become champions is up to the organisations.
I don't think the first issue matters. The difference between 9 ping and 30 ping is minimal and it's not though their advantage is faster reflexes. Their players went from lower ping to higher ping solo queue during the import process and it didn't affect them from performing. Rookie, Pawn, etc. are playing in lag and are still performing.
The second issue does matter, but what is the actual difference? This is a list of ranked players count taken recently:
KR 2,572,474 EUW 2,172,301 NA 1,417,780 EUNE 1,081,805 BRA 660,603
From the above, EUW has only slightly lower population than KR, and the combined EUW+EUNE player population is liable to be higher. It's not though Western teams don't recruit from both regions, and their players do play with each other. Thus, the Korean advantage in population is minimal vs. Europe, and not existent vs. China. Yet, both regions ended up importing Korean players.
The next two issues - competitive solo queue and faster games - is not in and of itself very useful. Sure, they have a higher skilled solo queue and faster games, but why do they have a higher skilled solo queue and faster games? Describing the results don't tell us about the causes.
All in all, I think we know very little, actually, about what makes them higher skilled.
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