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[NA LCS] Spring 2014 Playoffs - Page 120

Forum Index > LoL Tournaments
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StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
April 21 2014 18:25 GMT
#2381
On April 22 2014 02:46 wei2coolman wrote:
Well for playoff practice previous tsm practice doesn't matter since it's patch 4.5

Let's be honest here. If you were in that position to practice for playoffs on a brand new patch that shifts meta who would want to scrim for 2 weeks straight before? Coast and CLG. Or Curse and Dig.?


they'd still rick roll though. There's a pretty clear division in NA and these guys tend to have a good game plan even with the patches. There's only so much you can get out of those scrims and it's mostly tinkering with your champs and see how they play out now.
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
April 21 2014 18:37 GMT
#2382
On April 22 2014 03:25 StarStruck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2014 02:46 wei2coolman wrote:
Well for playoff practice previous tsm practice doesn't matter since it's patch 4.5

Let's be honest here. If you were in that position to practice for playoffs on a brand new patch that shifts meta who would want to scrim for 2 weeks straight before? Coast and CLG. Or Curse and Dig.?


they'd still rick roll though. There's a pretty clear division in NA and these guys tend to have a good game plan even with the patches. There's only so much you can get out of those scrims and it's mostly tinkering with your champs and see how they play out now.

Then you'd end up with false conclusions scrimming with shit teams. At least CLG is generally good enough scrim partners that c9 won't fall into that kind of trap. Also 4.5 is very much c9 favored patch.
liftlift > tsm
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-21 18:43:59
April 21 2014 18:43 GMT
#2383
On April 22 2014 03:37 wei2coolman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2014 03:25 StarStruck wrote:
On April 22 2014 02:46 wei2coolman wrote:
Well for playoff practice previous tsm practice doesn't matter since it's patch 4.5

Let's be honest here. If you were in that position to practice for playoffs on a brand new patch that shifts meta who would want to scrim for 2 weeks straight before? Coast and CLG. Or Curse and Dig.?


they'd still rick roll though. There's a pretty clear division in NA and these guys tend to have a good game plan even with the patches. There's only so much you can get out of those scrims and it's mostly tinkering with your champs and see how they play out now.

Then you'd end up with false conclusions scrimming with shit teams. At least CLG is generally good enough scrim partners that c9 won't fall into that kind of trap. Also 4.5 is very much c9 favored patch.


remember last season when hai's mid pool was diminished or how about countless other good players? At the end of the day, they find ways to win. Part of the game is having at least somewhat of a relevant champ pool to pick from. There is only so much you can get from scrims and like I said it's not like it's TSM and C9's first dance. They dance a lot and the patches are always just going to keep coming. They innovate the same way xpecial, meteos and other guys innovate their given roles.
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
April 21 2014 19:07 GMT
#2384
TSM just always chokes when it matters against good teams. The patch is just a convenient excuse
AsnSensation
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany24009 Posts
April 21 2014 19:29 GMT
#2385
The thing is, 3 man towerpushes have been around since the start of season 3, so nothing new except that the sololaner joins the team for the 4 man push now.

Against clg I probably give tsm a 60/40 in this patch if they luck out and setup 1-1-2 lanes. The 2 weeks on 4.4 with the trinket to 2:00 change they came out behind on pretty much every laneswap and they had additional 2 weeks to prepare+plenty of OGN to watch. They still managed to fuck up the 4 man push so hard in g1&g2 vs clg. They started to hit their first tower when clg was already half way to the second.
I think it was also apparent that they have no fucking clue what to do after the tower trade is done but that was probably mostly because clg was so damn good to punish every mistake without hesitation the moment they saw an opportunity.

Against C9... well pretty much inferior in every aspect, although Oddone prolly played the worst series in his career, I don't think he used eve ult once in g3 and while Dyrus is bad for feeding so much and throwing his lead on Balls, Oddone never managed to trade for something else on the map.
ghrur
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3786 Posts
April 21 2014 19:52 GMT
#2386
I think people who talk about scrim partners are forgetting about the existence of a really great non-LCS scrim partner (LMQ).
darkness overpowering
oo_Wonderful_oo
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
The land of freedom23126 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-21 19:57:44
April 21 2014 19:56 GMT
#2387
On April 22 2014 03:43 StarStruck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2014 03:37 wei2coolman wrote:
On April 22 2014 03:25 StarStruck wrote:
On April 22 2014 02:46 wei2coolman wrote:
Well for playoff practice previous tsm practice doesn't matter since it's patch 4.5

Let's be honest here. If you were in that position to practice for playoffs on a brand new patch that shifts meta who would want to scrim for 2 weeks straight before? Coast and CLG. Or Curse and Dig.?


they'd still rick roll though. There's a pretty clear division in NA and these guys tend to have a good game plan even with the patches. There's only so much you can get out of those scrims and it's mostly tinkering with your champs and see how they play out now.

Then you'd end up with false conclusions scrimming with shit teams. At least CLG is generally good enough scrim partners that c9 won't fall into that kind of trap. Also 4.5 is very much c9 favored patch.


remember last season when hai's mid pool was diminished or how about countless other good players? At the end of the day, they find ways to win. Part of the game is having at least somewhat of a relevant champ pool to pick from. There is only so much you can get from scrims and like I said it's not like it's TSM and C9's first dance. They dance a lot and the patches are always just going to keep coming. They innovate the same way xpecial, meteos and other guys innovate their given roles.


Hai was banned more than his pool was diminished.
It was only Jayce and Kha'Zix nerf which hurt him, but he still was playing Zed, Kassadin, Orianna, Kennen and even nerfed Jayce. Basically, you can't compare Hai and Bjergsen in that case because C9 doesn't require their lanes to win to win in general macrogame and TSM can't do stuff if they lost lanes.

On April 22 2014 04:52 ghrur wrote:
I think people who talk about scrim partners are forgetting about the existence of a really great non-LCS scrim partner (LMQ).


LMQ seem to have little champion pools in general to operate + they're not on top-3 NA level right now.
We'll see how they perform this week.

LiquidLegends StaffFPL 25 #1 | tfw I cast games on-air | back-to-back Liquibet winner
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21244 Posts
April 21 2014 20:31 GMT
#2388
On April 22 2014 04:56 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:

LMQ ... not on top-3 NA level right now.




Can't wait till Uzi comes. Lomo.

Also TSM sucks lol they're many levels below C9 you guys are so delusional.

#freesm

#freereginaldo
TranslatorBaa!
ghrur
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3786 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-21 20:48:07
April 21 2014 20:44 GMT
#2389
Yeah, I'd argue LMQ is probably top 4 if not top 3 in NA, especially if Uzi comes over. All the LCS teams seem to respect them a lot, and C9 said they scrimmed LMQ a lot. Not to mention that as individuals, they're all incredibly strong as well.

Also, I'm really happy about how good Balls has gotten. ^_^ I remember when C9 came into the LCS, Balls was seen as a shaky element on the team, and now he's basically one of their staple carries. Oh, and he exercises and lifts. Gogo Balls! ^_^
darkness overpowering
TitusVI
Profile Joined April 2013
Germany8319 Posts
April 22 2014 00:57 GMT
#2390
someone has to update the next lol matches in the TL calendar. its important that we see it. lol^^
Science>Mechanics
739
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Bearded Elder29903 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-22 10:34:56
April 22 2014 10:33 GMT
#2391
Waiting for All-Stars..
WriterSalty oldboy that loves memes | One and only back-to-back Liquibet Winner
Figgy
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada1788 Posts
April 22 2014 14:58 GMT
#2392
On April 22 2014 02:53 ticklishmusic wrote:
Out of every team in the LCS, TSM was the one most hurt by the last patch as well. To declare that C9 is miles and away the best team in NA would be pretty shortsighted based on a series where they were at their best and TSM was at their worst all season. It might turn out C9 is best team NA, but not by the margin most hipster elites would have said.


You are delusional.

C9 is now what, 12-1 against TSM? That's a 92% win record!! That's absurd! And that was with them playing standard lanes (TSM has already shown to be completely clueless when it comes to tower swaps).

TSM just got pub stomped and it happens pretty much every time they go up against C9, the difference is enough where they will never be ahead unless they make some roster changes.
Bug Fixes Fixed an issue where, when facing a SlayerS terran, completing a hatchery would cause a medivac and 8 marines to randomly spawn nearby and attack it.
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
April 22 2014 15:27 GMT
#2393
TSM basically coasted through NA LCS on Bjergsen's back. They looked awfully mediocre all around against C9, not looking to even make plays at all. That's not the TSM I'm using to watching with big plays Reginaldo calling the shots.
God Bless
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21244 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-22 15:34:05
April 22 2014 15:33 GMT
#2394
The problem is that Bjergsen has shown he's not significantly better than Hai to carry 1v5, and that's how TSM has won almost all of their other games up to this point. Hell, it was questionable if he was even "better" than Hai at all, and the rest of his team were uniformly worse than their counterparts, not to mention horrific drafting and lack of unity of vision in midgame movements.

LMQ said when they first came over that despite the scores and rankings, C9 is significantly better than TSM based on scrims, and it would appear to be true based on pure results, which are all that matters at the end of the day.
TranslatorBaa!
Sleight
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
2471 Posts
April 22 2014 19:54 GMT
#2395
On April 23 2014 00:33 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
The problem is that Bjergsen has shown he's not significantly better than Hai to carry 1v5, and that's how TSM has won almost all of their other games up to this point. Hell, it was questionable if he was even "better" than Hai at all, and the rest of his team were uniformly worse than their counterparts, not to mention horrific drafting and lack of unity of vision in midgame movements.

LMQ said when they first came over that despite the scores and rankings, C9 is significantly better than TSM based on scrims, and it would appear to be true based on pure results, which are all that matters at the end of the day.


I really can't believe anyone saying that Bjergsen is playing better than Hai the last 3-4 weeks. Hai was more effective in their series, not to mention the 1v1. He did more for his team in each game (even if he didn't get a penta, that doesn't make up for Bjergsen being thoroughly ineffectual most of the time). Maybe someone can say that in some theoretical game where it isn't a 5v5 game based on objectives Bjergerking is just "better," whatever that means, but Hai is performing better. End of story.
One Love
Figgy
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada1788 Posts
April 22 2014 22:19 GMT
#2396
On April 23 2014 04:54 Sleight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2014 00:33 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
The problem is that Bjergsen has shown he's not significantly better than Hai to carry 1v5, and that's how TSM has won almost all of their other games up to this point. Hell, it was questionable if he was even "better" than Hai at all, and the rest of his team were uniformly worse than their counterparts, not to mention horrific drafting and lack of unity of vision in midgame movements.

LMQ said when they first came over that despite the scores and rankings, C9 is significantly better than TSM based on scrims, and it would appear to be true based on pure results, which are all that matters at the end of the day.


I really can't believe anyone saying that Bjergsen is playing better than Hai the last 3-4 weeks. Hai was more effective in their series, not to mention the 1v1. He did more for his team in each game (even if he didn't get a penta, that doesn't make up for Bjergsen being thoroughly ineffectual most of the time). Maybe someone can say that in some theoretical game where it isn't a 5v5 game based on objectives Bjergerking is just "better," whatever that means, but Hai is performing better. End of story.


I think people underestimate how good Hai is simply because C9's lane are all around amazing.

It's the same as how Sneaky is rarely #1 on people's top ADC list of NA but seriously, he's how often do him and Lemonnation ever lose lane? It's just that the kills are more spread out between the team because everyone carries hard, unlike with TSM where if Bjergsen isn't carrying TSM flops.
Bug Fixes Fixed an issue where, when facing a SlayerS terran, completing a hatchery would cause a medivac and 8 marines to randomly spawn nearby and attack it.
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
April 23 2014 02:24 GMT
#2397
On April 23 2014 00:27 Roffles wrote:
TSM basically coasted through NA LCS on Bjergsen's back. They looked awfully mediocre all around against C9, not looking to even make plays at all. That's not the TSM I'm using to watching with big plays Reginaldo calling the shots.

To be fair, TSM DID go 5-1 on weeks 7 and 8 without Bjergsen on the team, it's not like they're mediocre without him; although it is a fairly small sample size.

On April 23 2014 00:33 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
The problem is that Bjergsen has shown he's not significantly better than Hai to carry 1v5, and that's how TSM has won almost all of their other games up to this point. Hell, it was questionable if he was even "better" than Hai at all, and the rest of his team were uniformly worse than their counterparts, not to mention horrific drafting and lack of unity of vision in midgame movements.

LMQ said when they first came over that despite the scores and rankings, C9 is significantly better than TSM based on scrims, and it would appear to be true based on pure results, which are all that matters at the end of the day.

Uniformly worse sounds unfair- I'd say Xpecial is at least as good as Lemonnation overall and, however underrated Sneaky may be, Wildturtle is also really strong overall. Balls is easily better than Dyrus though and Meteos is miles ahead of Oddone, plus C9 has better overall rotations and strategy.

After these 3 games, no one should dispute that C9 is significantly stronger than TSM atm and probably would've won the series on the 4.4 patch as well, but it would be disingenuous to believe that the patch didn't favor C9- due to the 4.5 meta being more favorable to C9, due to C9 being better at figuring out new metas faster, and due to C9 having better scrim partners for the 4.5 patch than TSM did.
Go here http://vina.biobiochile.cl/ and input the Konami Code (up up down down left right left right B A)
ghrur
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3786 Posts
April 23 2014 03:35 GMT
#2398
On April 23 2014 07:19 Figgy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2014 04:54 Sleight wrote:
On April 23 2014 00:33 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
The problem is that Bjergsen has shown he's not significantly better than Hai to carry 1v5, and that's how TSM has won almost all of their other games up to this point. Hell, it was questionable if he was even "better" than Hai at all, and the rest of his team were uniformly worse than their counterparts, not to mention horrific drafting and lack of unity of vision in midgame movements.

LMQ said when they first came over that despite the scores and rankings, C9 is significantly better than TSM based on scrims, and it would appear to be true based on pure results, which are all that matters at the end of the day.


I really can't believe anyone saying that Bjergsen is playing better than Hai the last 3-4 weeks. Hai was more effective in their series, not to mention the 1v1. He did more for his team in each game (even if he didn't get a penta, that doesn't make up for Bjergsen being thoroughly ineffectual most of the time). Maybe someone can say that in some theoretical game where it isn't a 5v5 game based on objectives Bjergerking is just "better," whatever that means, but Hai is performing better. End of story.


I think people underestimate how good Hai is simply because C9's lane are all around amazing.

It's the same as how Sneaky is rarely #1 on people's top ADC list of NA but seriously, he's how often do him and Lemonnation ever lose lane? It's just that the kills are more spread out between the team because everyone carries hard, unlike with TSM where if Bjergsen isn't carrying TSM flops.


To be fair, Sneaky and Lemon are pretty iffy for the most part, and I've seen them randomly die in lane/lose lane to even bad teams before. I think they've gotten a lot better though, and that's what's been helping C9 on their crazy win streak.
darkness overpowering
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-23 11:54:49
April 23 2014 09:25 GMT
#2399
On April 23 2014 11:24 Zato-1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2014 00:27 Roffles wrote:
TSM basically coasted through NA LCS on Bjergsen's back. They looked awfully mediocre all around against C9, not looking to even make plays at all. That's not the TSM I'm using to watching with big plays Reginaldo calling the shots.

To be fair, TSM DID go 5-1 on weeks 7 and 8 without Bjergsen on the team, it's not like they're mediocre without him; although it is a fairly small sample size.

Show nested quote +
On April 23 2014 00:33 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
The problem is that Bjergsen has shown he's not significantly better than Hai to carry 1v5, and that's how TSM has won almost all of their other games up to this point. Hell, it was questionable if he was even "better" than Hai at all, and the rest of his team were uniformly worse than their counterparts, not to mention horrific drafting and lack of unity of vision in midgame movements.

LMQ said when they first came over that despite the scores and rankings, C9 is significantly better than TSM based on scrims, and it would appear to be true based on pure results, which are all that matters at the end of the day.

Uniformly worse sounds unfair- I'd say Xpecial is at least as good as Lemonnation overall and, however underrated Sneaky may be, Wildturtle is also really strong overall. Balls is easily better than Dyrus though and Meteos is miles ahead of Oddone, plus C9 has better overall rotations and strategy.

After these 3 games, no one should dispute that C9 is significantly stronger than TSM atm and probably would've won the series on the 4.4 patch as well, but it would be disingenuous to believe that the patch didn't favor C9- due to the 4.5 meta being more favorable to C9, due to C9 being better at figuring out new metas faster, and due to C9 having better scrim partners for the 4.5 patch than TSM did.

It's because without Bjergsen, the rest of TSM stepped up to play and it was clearly evident. The overall level of play was much greater then than it is now. With Bjergsen back in mid, it seems as though TSM basically just coasts and does dumb shit without anyone keeping them in line. Let's be honest, Turtle flash valks into fights, Dyrus TPs into 2 people top just to die for the 3rd time in 2 minutes, etc.

The rest of TSM is awfully mediocre, even by NA standards. Dyrus is legitimately just a feeder who only shits on Nientonsoh because that guy is bad too. OddOne is pretty mediocre and is pretty much only clearly better than NintendudeX aka 31 minute Feral Flare stacker. Turtle's been playing much worse this split than last split, which amounts to a lot, because Turtle used to put his shit team on his back and make plays while snowballing bot lane. A lot of it can be attributed to Xpecial playing new shit he doesn't look comfortable on (Morgana, Karma, etc) and getting caught a lot.

Aside from Bjergsen, everyone else on TSM is very mediocre even by NA standards. Their shotcalling is also very suspect (Just look at how they played against CLG in Game 1 with their poke comp. TSM started basically every dragon without poking and legit just got obliterated when they could have just taken their time to poke). TSM basically can play one style, and play that style very well. But once you throw them off their game, mix in some lane swaps and fast tower pushing, and it becomes chaos because they don't know what to do. Just look at their last game vs C9 where they got their 1v1 top and 2v2 bot and got outclassed in lanes and in the jungle. It's clear that TSM is very mediocre when playing from behind and really rely on that early game snowballing from dominant lanes or getting carried by Bjergsen.

In terms of positional ranking in NA, here's pretty much what I believe the hierarchy to be:

Top: Balls > Quas = Zion > Nien = Dyrus > Cruzer = Innox = Benny (These guys blow)

In top lane, Balls is clearly the best player in NA. I don't think anyone can refute how much work he puts in for C9. Quas and ZionSpartan are the cornerstones of their teams and when they win, these guys will carry the game. Nien and Dyrus are basically on the same level below them because 1) they rarely have a huge impact on the game and 2) are prone to contributing negatively to the team. Nien and Dyrus are both legitimate feeders who will at times feed nonstop and contribute nothing to the team. If I had to take one over the other, I'd take Dyrus over Nien because his TP timings are better. Dyrus' champ pool is sort of questionable, and Nien just hasn't gotten better at top lane since he started for CLG.

Jungle: Meteos > Dexter > OddOne = Crumbz > IWD = Xmithie > Snoopeh > NintendudeX

Pretty clear order of hierarchy here. Meteos is undisputed as the jungler who has the most impact on games. When you watch C9 games, this guy is basically everywhere. Dexter comes second because he has the ability to carry games unlike the rest of the junglers in NA, but is prone to tilting and making really poor decisions at times. OddOne does nothing, as does Crumbz, but they do what their teams need and are usually solid. IWD is generally the same as the previous two, but he's prone to doing more dumb shit like nonstop feeding because he only has one gear (GO GO GO). Xmithie's return to the jungle has been fairly lackluster. Doesn't seem like this new pool of junglers fits his style. Snoopeh does nothing and usually feeds, but he's still better than 31 minute Feral Flare stacker and biggest LCS feeder NintendudeX.

Mid: Bjergsen > Shiphtur = Hai > Link > Mancloud > Pobelter = Dig's Mid Laner > Voyboy

Pretty clear here. Bjergsen is a god, and Shiphtur is in what we'd like to call LCS ELO Hell. The one thing I'd like to point out about Shiphtur is that despite his great scores, it seems as though when he plays he has no trust in his teammates (Let's be real I wouldn't trust NintendudeX either) and isn't able to relay his advantages mid into overall wins. His play style revolves a lot around solo kills after roaming to pick up kills top with Zion, but it's very rarely portrayed into huge teamfight wins. Very solo queue mentality IMO. Hai is super solid, and usually has great impact on the game alongside Meteos for Cloud 9. Link never does anything, which is why he's a tier lower than the previously mentioned mids, but he's typically a solid farmer and doesn't feed. I still think Mancloud on the right champ pool is still a great farmer, but he just doesn't have the impact he had last season. Pobelter feeds every other game, and Dig's mid laner is also a useless feeder, but they're still better than the ultimate LCS shitter Voyboy. Voyboy is the definition of useless and is the reason why Nidalee hasn't been butchered by Riot. Because he manages to take pretty much any champion and have 0 impact on the game while losing in farm and feeding.

AD: Doublelift > Sneaky > Imaqtpie > Wildturtle > Cop > Wizfujin > Yellowpete > Zuna

Double's only rated higher because his team prioritizes his farm higher than C9 prioritizes farm onto Sneaky. I'm pretty certain if Sneaky was given highest farm allocation on his team, he'd be just as good as Double. Both are solid players that teamfight well with great positioning. After Sneaky it gets tricky because last split Turtle would have been easily #1 or 2, but this split he's been super mediocre, even playing borderline god awful in some games. His positioning and teamfight decision making is terrible (Valk Flash in??). Imaqtpie is prone to the same dumb shit (Tunnel visioning kills and wasting flashes to KS), and this guy is the definition of greedy as fuck (Often going off to farm when there are objectives that can be taken), but when it comes down to teamfights his positioning is often very solid with minimal peel from the often dead from initiating Kiwikid. After the top 4, the level of ADs in NA falls off a ton. Cop is miles ahead of the 3 shitters below, but he still does nothing in a game. You can funnel 400 CS onto Cop and he'll still manage to not output damage in fights. Wizfujin is trash, but his competition at the bottom are Yellowpete (lol) and Zuna (bigger lol). Wiz's Lucian is passable and he usually teamfights fairly well, but for some reason this guy is always down like 100 CS. Yellowpete blows in laning phase and is merely passable in teamfights because he's usually running away and not outputting damage. Zuna is Zuna. Blows at every aspect of the game except feeding.

Support: Aphromoo > LemonNation > Xpecial > Kiwikid > Sheep = Krepo > Daydreamin > Bunnyfufuu

Aphro is basically a god. This guy is so versatile and makes so many plays regardless of what champ he's on. He has the rare ability to carry a game from the support role. He rarely misses skillshots and doesn't get caught that many times. LemonNation is a close second because he simply plays so solid. Lemon's got this ability to make big plays and is a super good at obtaining map vision for Cloud 9. Xpecial would be rated higher if he didn't play like a giant pussy. I feel like his decline is a reason why WildTurtle has looked so awful this split. TSM's bot duo used to be the best in NA, but now they're super mediocre because Xpecial isn't making plays anymore and not manning up. He's been caught more often this split than last and doesn't look comfortable on certain champs (Morgana comes to mind). Kiwikid fits what Dignitas needs from their support, a guy who will YOLO in to initiate fights because Cruzer blows at top lane. The roaming support style allows Qtpie to get ahead from taking full creep EXP and also looks to help their relatively weak mid lane while allowing Crumbz to farm and power up from the jungle. He is prone to feeding a lot due to sometimes being massively underleveled and too YOLO. Sheep's been a super solid pickup for XDG, but let's be real here. It's hard to look good with Zuna as your AD. Krepo feeds a lot and is prone to missing a lot of skillshots, but he's still better than Daydreamin because when you watch a Coast game, how many times do you hear Daydreamin's name? None, because he does nothing in a game. Bunnyfufuu has a 1 champion pool of Thresh. Ban this guy out and he's very useless.

With the meta swapping to a 4v0 double tower push in most games, you can tell who teams trust with their farm. Double and Qtpie will always get their team's farm while ZionSpartan will always get Coast's farm. The game revolves around managing creep waves to pressure objectives. But at the end of the day, usually teams with the better jungler will almost always prevail because they're able to have so much impact on the game. Just take a look at the difference between CLG with Dexter jungling and CLG without Dexter jungling last split. He's able to make plays around the map and parlay them into objectives for his team.

This week, I expect the following to happen in Up/Downs:

Coast will handily beat Complexity Black 3-0. Their solo laners are a liability against ZionSpartan and Shiphtur, and Brokenshard is not good enough to capitalize on playing against the worst jungler in LCS. Complexity is also highly mediocre at objective based play, but they do teamfight decently given that they aren't too far behind from laning phase.

EG will beat C9 Tempest 3-1. C9T's solo laners are highly suspect, and I expect the good Snoopeh to show up for relegation matches. Bischu is a one trick pony mid and if C9T's bot lane gets shut down, they have 0 shot at winning the series. I think these two teams are close in skill level, but I do think come crunch time, the experience of the Euro Trio will help propel EG to a berth in the Spring Split. C9T is probably the best challenger team in terms of objective based play, as they seem very well versed in the tower pushing and rotational game. However, their individual lack of skill will lose them this series.

LMQ will beat XDG 3-1. If you look at how XDG has been playing, they're very solid sometimes and very poor in other games. Last split, XDG won because they were able to turn the early game advantage they accrued with Xmithie's jungling into a snowball win by getting Mancloud fed. Mancloud hasn't shown the ability to carry games this split, but he does farm rather well. Xmithie also doesn't look comfortable in this jungle meta, and XDG as a whole doesn't seem that great with the 4v0 tower pushing meta. I wouldn't be surprised to see LMQ force XDG into standard lanes to capitalize on the weaknesses of their laners. Mid should be a farmfest with XWX and ManCloud who are both very competent farmers. Top will be jungler dependent. Ackerman 1v1 will abuse Benny, but he has been camped a lot in Challenger Series and can also be prone to feeding a bit. Bot will abuse Zuna and Sheep 2v2 because Vasilii is by far better than Zuna. If Ackerman gets camped top, LMQ's bot lane will get fed and carry the game. The correct strategy has to be to target Vasilii and Mor and get Zuna going if possible. This series will be won or lost by Xmithie's decision making. If he's able to 1) Shut down Vasilii or 2) Get ManCloud somehow fed, they will have a good shot at winning. LMQ has plenty of LAN experience and will not crumble under pressure. Ackerman is rock solid as their top laner from Royal Club, and all of them have plenty of experience playing in LPL against teams such as World Elite and OMG. If the worlds ManCloud shows up to play, XDG will have a shot at winning, otherwise he'll be praying for Dignitas to pick him up for next split.
God Bless
Zato-1
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Chile4253 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-23 11:26:30
April 23 2014 11:09 GMT
#2400
On April 23 2014 18:25 Roffles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2014 11:24 Zato-1 wrote:
On April 23 2014 00:27 Roffles wrote:
TSM basically coasted through NA LCS on Bjergsen's back. They looked awfully mediocre all around against C9, not looking to even make plays at all. That's not the TSM I'm using to watching with big plays Reginaldo calling the shots.

To be fair, TSM DID go 5-1 on weeks 7 and 8 without Bjergsen on the team, it's not like they're mediocre without him; although it is a fairly small sample size.

On April 23 2014 00:33 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
The problem is that Bjergsen has shown he's not significantly better than Hai to carry 1v5, and that's how TSM has won almost all of their other games up to this point. Hell, it was questionable if he was even "better" than Hai at all, and the rest of his team were uniformly worse than their counterparts, not to mention horrific drafting and lack of unity of vision in midgame movements.

LMQ said when they first came over that despite the scores and rankings, C9 is significantly better than TSM based on scrims, and it would appear to be true based on pure results, which are all that matters at the end of the day.

Uniformly worse sounds unfair- I'd say Xpecial is at least as good as Lemonnation overall and, however underrated Sneaky may be, Wildturtle is also really strong overall. Balls is easily better than Dyrus though and Meteos is miles ahead of Oddone, plus C9 has better overall rotations and strategy.

After these 3 games, no one should dispute that C9 is significantly stronger than TSM atm and probably would've won the series on the 4.4 patch as well, but it would be disingenuous to believe that the patch didn't favor C9- due to the 4.5 meta being more favorable to C9, due to C9 being better at figuring out new metas faster, and due to C9 having better scrim partners for the 4.5 patch than TSM did.

+ Show Spoiler +
It's because without Bjergsen, the rest of TSM stepped up to play and it was clearly evident. The overall level of play was much greater then than it is now. With Bjergsen back in mid, it seems as though TSM basically just coasts and does dumb shit without anyone keeping them in line. Let's be honest, Turtle flash valks into fights, Dyrus TPs into 2 people top just to die for the 3rd time in 2 minutes, etc.

The rest of TSM is awfully mediocre, even by NA standards. Dyrus is legitimately just a feeder who only shits on Nientonsoh because that guy is bad too. OddOne is pretty mediocre and is pretty much only clearly better than NintendudeX aka 31 minute Feral Flare stacker. Turtle's been playing much worse this split than last split, which amounts to a lot, because Turtle used to put his shit team on his back and make plays while snowballing bot lane. A lot of it can be attributed to Xpecial playing new shit he doesn't look comfortable on (Morgana, Karma, etc) and getting caught a lot.

Aside from Bjergsen, everyone else on TSM is very mediocre even by NA standards. Their shotcalling is also very suspect (Just look at how they played against CLG in Game 1 with their poke comp. TSM started basically every dragon without poking and legit just got obliterated when they could have just taken their time to poke). TSM basically can play one style, and play that style very well. But once you throw them off their game, mix in some lane swaps and fast tower pushing, and it becomes chaos because they don't know what to do. Just look at their last game vs C9 where they got their 1v1 top and 2v2 bot and got outclassed in lanes and in the jungle. It's clear that TSM is very mediocre when playing from behind and really rely on that early game snowballing from dominant lanes or getting carried by Bjergsen.

In terms of positional ranking in NA, here's pretty much what I believe the hierarchy to be:

Top: Balls > Quas = Zion > Nien = Dyrus > Cruzer = Innox = Benny (These guys blow)

In top lane, Balls is clearly the best player in NA. I don't think anyone can refute how much work he puts in for C9. Quas and ZionSpartan are the cornerstones of their teams and when they win, these guys will carry the game. Nien and Dyrus are basically on the same level below them because 1) they rarely have a huge impact on the game and 2) are prone to contributing negatively to the team. Nien and Dyrus are both legitimate feeders who will at times feed nonstop and contribute nothing to the team. If I had to take one over the other, I'd take Dyrus over Nien because his TP timings are better. Dyrus' champ pool is sort of questionable, and Nien just hasn't gotten better at top lane since he started for CLG.

Jungle: Meteos > Dexter > OddOne = Crumbz > IWD = Xmithie > Snoopeh > NintendudeX

Pretty clear order of hierarchy here. Meteos is undisputed as the jungler who has the most impact on games. When you watch C9 games, this guy is basically everywhere. Dexter comes second because he has the ability to carry games unlike the rest of the junglers in NA, but is prone to tilting and making really poor decisions at times. OddOne does nothing, as does Crumbz, but they do what their teams need and are usually solid. IWD is generally the same as the previous two, but he's prone to doing more dumb shit like nonstop feeding because he only has one gear (GO GO GO). Xmithie's return to the jungle has been fairly lackluster. Doesn't seem like this new pool of junglers fits his style. Snoopeh does nothing and usually feeds, but he's still better than 31 minute Feral Flare stacker and biggest LCS feeder NintendudeX.

Mid: Bjergsen > Shiphtur = Hai > Link > Mancloud > Pobelter = Dig's Mid Laner > Voyboy

Pretty clear here. Bjergsen is a god, and Shiphtur is in what we'd like to call LCS ELO Hell. The one thing I'd like to point out about Shiphtur is that despite his great scores, it seems as though when he plays he has no trust in his teammates (Let's be real I wouldn't trust NintendudeX either) and isn't able to relay his advantages mid into overall wins. His play style revolves a lot around solo kills after roaming to pick up kills top with Zion, but it's very rarely portrayed into huge teamfight wins. Very solo queue mentality IMO. Hai is super solid, and usually has great impact on the game alongside Meteos for Cloud 9. Link never does anything, which is why he's a tier lower than the previously mentioned mids, but he's typically a solid farmer and doesn't feed. I still think Mancloud on the right champ pool is still a great farmer, but he just doesn't have the impact he had last season. Pobelter feeds every other game, and Dig's mid laner is also a useless feeder, but they're still better than the ultimate LCS shitter Voyboy. Voyboy is the definition of useless and is the reason why Nidalee hasn't been butchered by Riot. Because he manages to take pretty much any champion and have 0 impact on the game while losing in farm and feeding.

AD: Doublelift > Sneaky > Imaqtpie > Wildturtle > Cop > Wizfujin > Yellowpete > Zuna

Double's only rated higher because his team prioritizes his farm higher than C9 prioritizes farm onto Sneaky. I'm pretty certain if Sneaky was given highest farm allocation on his team, he'd be just as good as Double. Both are solid players that teamfight well with great positioning. After Sneaky it gets tricky because last split Turtle would have been easily #1 or 2, but this split he's been super mediocre, even playing borderline god awful in some games. His positioning and teamfight decision making is terrible (Valk Flash in??). Imaqtpie is prone to the same dumb shit (Tunnel visioning kills and wasting flashes to KS), and this guy is the definition of greedy as fuck (Often going off to farm when there are objectives that can be taken), but when it comes down to teamfights his positioning is often very solid with minimal peel from the often dead from initiating Kiwikid. After the top 4, the level of ADs in NA falls off a ton. Cop is miles ahead of the 3 shitters below, but he still does nothing in a game. You can funnel 400 CS onto Cop and he'll still manage to not output damage in fights. Wizfujin is trash, but his competition at the bottom are Yellowpete (lol) and Zuna (bigger lol). Wiz's Lucian is passable and he usually teamfights fairly well, but for some reason this guy is always down like 100 CS. Yellowpete blows in laning phase and is merely passable in teamfights because he's usually running away and not outputting damage. Zuna is Zuna. Blows at every aspect of the game except feeding.

Support: Aphromoo > LemonNation > Xpecial > Kiwikid > Sheep = Krepo > Daydreamin > Bunnyfufuu

Aphro is basically a god. This guy is so versatile and makes so many plays regardless of what champ he's on. He has the rare ability to carry a game from the support role. He rarely misses skillshots and doesn't get caught that many times. LemonNation is a close second because he simply plays so solid. Lemon's got this ability to make big plays and is a super good at obtaining map vision for Cloud 9. Xpecial would be rated higher if he didn't play like a giant pussy. I feel like his decline is a reason why WildTurtle has looked so awful this split. TSM's bot duo used to be the best in NA, but now they're super mediocre because Xpecial isn't making plays anymore and not manning up. He's been caught more often this split than last and doesn't look comfortable on certain champs (Morgana comes to mind). Kiwikid fits what Dignitas needs from their support, a guy who will YOLO in to initiate fights because Cruzer blows at top lane. The roaming support style allows Qtpie to get ahead from taking full creep EXP and also looks to help their relatively weak mid lane while allowing Crumbz to farm and power up from the jungle. He is prone to feeding a lot due to sometimes being massively underleveled and too YOLO. Sheep's been a super solid pickup for XDG, but let's be real here. It's hard to look good with Zuna as your AD. Krepo feeds a lot and is prone to missing a lot of skillshots, but he's still better than Daydreamin because when you watch a Coast game, how many times do you hear Daydreamin's name? None, because he does nothing in a game. Bunnyfufuu has a 1 champion pool of Thresh. Ban this guy out and he's very useless.

With the meta swapping to a 4v0 double tower push in most games, you can tell who teams trust with their farm. Double and Qtpie will always get their team's farm while ZionSpartan will always get Coast's farm. The game revolves around managing creep waves to pressure objectives. But at the end of the day, usually teams with the better jungler will almost always prevail because they're able to have so much impact on the game. Just take a look at the difference between CLG with Dexter jungling and CLG without Dexter jungling last split. He's able to make plays around the map and parlay them into objectives for his team.

This week, I expect the following to happen in Up/Downs:

Coast will handily beat Complexity Black 3-0. Their solo laners are a liability against ZionSpartan and Shiphtur, and Brokenshard is not good enough to capitalize on playing against the worst jungler in LCS. Complexity is also highly mediocre at objective based play, but they do teamfight decently given that they aren't too far behind from laning phase.

EG will beat C9 Tempest 3-1. C9T's solo laners are highly suspect, and I expect the good Snoopeh to show up for relegation matches. Bischu is a one trick pony mid and if C9T's bot lane gets shut down, they have 0 shot at winning the series. I think these two teams are close in skill level, but I do think come crunch time, the experience of the Euro Trio will help propel EG to a birth in the Spring Split. C9T is probably the best challenger team in terms of objective based play, as they seem very well versed in the tower pushing and rotational game. However, their individual lack of skill will lose them this series.

LMQ will beat XDG 3-1. If you look at how XDG has been playing, they're very solid sometimes and very poor in other games. Last split, XDG won because they were able to turn the early game advantage they accrued with Xmithie's jungling into a snowball win by getting Mancloud fed. Mancloud hasn't shown the ability to carry games this split, but he does farm rather well. Xmithie also doesn't look comfortable in this jungle meta, and XDG as a whole doesn't seem that great with the 4v0 tower pushing meta. I wouldn't be surprised to see LMQ force XDG into standard lanes to capitalize on the weaknesses of their laners. Mid should be a farmfest with XWX and ManCloud who are both very competent farmers. Top will be jungler dependent. Ackerman 1v1 will abuse Benny, but he has been camped a lot in Challenger Series and can also be prone to feeding a bit. Bot will abuse Zuna and Sheep 2v2 because Vasilii is by far better than Zuna. If Ackerman gets camped top, LMQ's bot lane will get fed and carry the game. The correct strategy has to be to target Vasilii and Mor and get Zuna going if possible. This series will be won or lost by Xmithie's decision making. If he's able to 1) Shut down Vasilii or 2) Get ManCloud somehow fed, they will have a good shot at winning. LMQ has plenty of LAN experience and will not crumble under pressure. Ackerman is rock solid as their top laner from Royal Club, and all of them have plenty of experience playing in LPL against teams such as World Elite and OMG. If the worlds ManCloud shows up to play, XDG will have a shot at winning, otherwise he'll be praying for Dignitas to pick him up for next split.

... wow. Great post man, thanks for taking the time to write it; I enjoyed reading it, and I'm not gonna nitpick your analysis because it seemed pretty solid overall. That said, there is one thing I'm gonna nitpick:

On April 23 2014 18:25 Roffles wrote:
EG will beat C9 Tempest 3-1. C9T's solo laners are highly suspect, and I expect the good Snoopeh to show up for relegation matches. Bischu is a one trick pony mid and if C9T's bot lane gets shut down, they have 0 shot at winning the series. I think these two teams are close in skill level, but I do think come crunch time, the experience of the Euro Trio will help propel EG to a birth in the Spring Split.

*berth. Not sure if it was a typo or not, but birth makes no sense in that context XP
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