On November 05 2012 01:14 onlywonderboy wrote: Look at the US when it comes to soccer, we just don't have the talent to keep up with most of the European teams that take soccer much more seriously. Lack of practice plays a role, but there's also a lack of raw talent. Same thing with LoL
US soccer isn't bad at all to be honest. They only lack one thing, and it's top tier coaches (and the fact it's not taken as seriously as in europe ofc). NA LoL is quite the same, how do you expect CLG.na to train when the boss is Hotshot. I'm still impressed by CLG.na, I would have expected them to be far, far worse than what they showed. Okay, most of it was due to Doublelift carrying as he could.
On November 04 2012 19:47 Feartheguru wrote: The purpose of a job is ultimately to make money. If their net return from a smaller amount of tournament wins + stream revenue is greater than what they can get from more tournament wins then it's the right strategy for them.
That's fine, but it should also mean that people need to stop justifying them and making excuses.
They're not good because it's not the most financially practical option for them, simple as that. No need for any other excuses.
They're still good, just not Korean level goodness.
Better than you, you might say.
By all rights, every member of the Charlotte Bobcats is better than me at basketball, but they're still an awful team compared to everyone else getting paid to play.
Perspective, please. Until they have some real results again, they deserve the criticism they're getting.
Somebody has to be the worst professional team, that's just the way it works. Sometimes these tiers happen to be structured by region. Look at the US when it comes to soccer, we just don't have the talent to keep up with most of the European teams that take soccer much more seriously. Lack of practice plays a role, but there's also a lack of raw talent. Same thing with LoL. They have more time and a better sense for the game than we do. Still, the pro players are still pro for a reason because in NA they are better than most people.
Well, it's not always because they're strictly better. You can see more than a handful of people who solo queue, stream, or even post here on these forums that are skilled enough to beat the pro players they beat rather consistently. However, going pro is a decision in and of itself, one that not every great player will make. Be it time, obligations, or just not wanting to deal with the pressure, the life isn't for everyone.
But yes, better than most people, but it's not always "pros are the most skilled in a region".
I agree 100%, that commitment is not for everyone.
I think the defeatist attitude is somewhat misguided. The players seem to genuinely believe the problem is no scrim partners, when in fact no 2 NA teams have ever partnered up for a serious daily scrimming schedule. These guys are already in gaming houses playing LoL all day but they do it an inefficient manner.
On November 05 2012 01:35 Dan HH wrote: I think the defeatist attitude is somewhat misguided. The players seem to genuinely believe the problem is no scrim partners, when in fact no 2 NA teams have ever partnered up for a serious daily scrimming schedule. These guys are already in gaming houses playing LoL all day but they do it an inefficient manner.
I do wonder with TSM complaining that they can't scrim with anyone I wonder if that actually means "We asked dignitas and they said no today" have they actually tried scrimming against curse or fear?
On November 05 2012 01:35 Dan HH wrote: I think the defeatist attitude is somewhat misguided. The players seem to genuinely believe the problem is no scrim partners, when in fact no 2 NA teams have ever partnered up for a serious daily scrimming schedule. These guys are already in gaming houses playing LoL all day but they do it an inefficient manner.
TSM has scrimmed with orb and Dig for weeks on end (before separate events), all day every day. But TSM only scrims hardcore two weeks before events. =(
On the other hand, only way to pay for the teamhouse if you're on your own like TSM is by creating alternate revenue streams. Developing the web assets (Regi, Dan and their various siblings), streaming (TOO, Dyrus), or living off their winnings (Xpecial, Chaox). Especially with the Chaox and Xpecial you noticed that they did a whole lot of non-gaming stuff after they won everything this summer before the WC. Before, they used to stream regularly as well, but after money wasn't an issue anymore Chaox started nerding MtG, going out on dates and partying and stuff. Xpecial probably just hangs out a lot with his gf.
If your personal financial well-being and future depends on you entirely, you make decisions differently. Gamers in Korean pro teams get a regular salary, food and housing from their teams. They don't have to worry for the time they are playing. Western players do. Not because players are unprofessional or not mature enough, but because there is no infrastructure that provides for players during their career like a regular job would. Because at the heart of it, professional players are sort of entrepreneurs or freelancers - whereas in Korea/Asia in general they can be viewed as employees with a performance-based salary.
I do wonder with TSM complaining that they can't scrim with anyone I wonder if that actually means "We asked dignitas and they said no today" have they actually tried scrimming against curse or fear?
Are you sure about the "can't" part ? Cause from what I saw they said they "didn't". I find it impossible to believe they couldn't find teams to scrim with. I remember seeing Doublelift saying yesterday in an interview that it's TSM that doesn't want to scrim CLG. Dunno what's the situation with DIG since the whole Dyrus fiasco but I'm sure there are lower profile teams to scrim with like Fear, TD etc. Even CLG.eu since Dyrus and Wickd are good friends they used to practice a lot in the past cross server. Moreover there are plenty of Asian teams scrimming in NA server with ping. If they think it's profitable for them and they proved to be the best then TSM should try and do it too.
So overall there might be various reasons for TSM's performances but inability to practice is bullshit.
On November 05 2012 01:35 Dan HH wrote: I think the defeatist attitude is somewhat misguided. The players seem to genuinely believe the problem is no scrim partners, when in fact no 2 NA teams have ever partnered up for a serious daily scrimming schedule. These guys are already in gaming houses playing LoL all day but they do it an inefficient manner.
TSM has scrimmed with orb and Dig for weeks on end (before separate events), all day every day. But TSM only scrims hardcore two weeks before events. =(
On the other hand, only way to pay for the teamhouse if you're on your own like TSM is by creating alternate revenue streams. Developing the web assets (Regi, Dan and their various siblings), streaming (TOO, Dyrus), or living off their winnings (Xpecial, Chaox). Especially with the Chaox and Xpecial you noticed that they did a whole lot of non-gaming stuff after they won everything this summer before the WC. Before, they used to stream regularly as well, but after money wasn't an issue anymore Chaox started nerding MtG, going out on dates and partying and stuff. Xpecial probably just hangs out a lot with his gf.
If your personal financial well-being and future depends on you entirely, you make decisions differently. Gamers in Korean pro teams get a regular salary, food and housing from their teams. They don't have to worry for the time they are playing. Western players do. Not because players are unprofessional or not mature enough, but because there is no infrastructure that provides for players during their career like a regular job would. Because at the heart of it, professional players are sort of entrepreneurs or freelancers - whereas in Korea/Asia in general they can be viewed as employees with a performance-based salary.
that was really well-worded and i agree 100% +1 for you wise sir
On November 04 2012 23:17 gyth wrote: What does the one team per region mean for frost/blaze? Will it hurt asian practice enough to level the playing field? (was that the point??)
I think frost and blaze play as separate teams under the same sponsor so it shouldn't be a problem
After the "close individual skill" and "regi missing 50cs because of 60fps computers" Imma drop this here to finish the TSM & MLG Dallas Chapter^^
Dyrus 8 hours ago via mobile There's nothing on this wall that I can't say that isn't hypocritical thanks to those who understand but for the rest open your eyes. No it's not smite no it's not lack of solo queue I played eight to ten hours a day during the movement process we had zero scrims yes that played a big part yes we got what we deserved you think I don't know that? This is a team I am one part of the team. Yes we need a leader a manager a schedule. We lost two events in a row were to used to winning in the NA scene. You want to make a difference? I'm motivated but there's no solid practice I can go to like the Asians can. Think about it azubu blaze frost making can scrim vs each other top level. All I can do is get a Korean account Taiwan account and learn from the current best Who and where do you think the roots are? I am the best top laners in NA self proclaimed. I have the biggest champion pool and player capacity to play every role at a top level in NA. Only two games of playing against maknoon has taught me his runes masteries and play style. I can easily copy it up to 70% until I'm not lazy with my mechanics. I can relearn jax and singe d in a week. But you have to understand my understanding of the game comes all the way from closed beta. The skill gap between players is not wide with the exception of toyzz though that Guy is a beast. But what is the huge gap is team work communication and goals. Also the love for the game. If I only played singed jax for three years my Rep would be stupid amplified. Two trick pony or not. Anyways thanks for reading typing on android op ^^ just gotta remake my name for myself in terms of how good I am in the scene. Starting with Darius.
On November 05 2012 02:06 AsnSensation wrote: After the "close individual skill" and "regi missing 50cs because of 60fps computers" Imma drop this here to finish the TSM & MLG Dallas Chapter^^
Dyrus 8 hours ago via mobile There's nothing on this wall that I can't say that isn't hypocritical thanks to those who understand but for the rest open your eyes. No it's not smite no it's not lack of solo queue I played eight to ten hours a day during the movement process we had zero scrims yes that played a big part yes we got what we deserved you think I don't know that? This is a team I am one part of the team. Yes we need a leader a manager a schedule. We lost two events in a row were to used to winning in the NA scene. You want to make a difference? I'm motivated but there's no solid practice I can go to like the Asians can. Think about it azubu blaze frost making can scrim vs each other top level. All I can do is get a Korean account Taiwan account and learn from the current best Who and where do you think the roots are? I am the best top laners in NA self proclaimed. I have the biggest champion pool and player capacity to play every role at a top level in NA. Only two games of playing against maknoon has taught me his runes masteries and play style. I can easily copy it up to 70% until I'm not lazy with my mechanics. I can relearn jax and singe d in a week. But you have to understand my understanding of the game comes all the way from closed beta. The skill gap between players is not wide with the exception of toyzz though that Guy is a beast. But what is the huge gap is team work communication and goals. Also the love for the game. If I only played singed jax for three years my Rep would be stupid amplified. Two trick pony or not. Anyways thanks for reading typing on android op ^^ just gotta remake my name for myself in terms of how good I am in the scene. Starting with Darius.
Thanks for that insightful post. It's a lot more interesting than your idea of iG being a top tier team.
He's basically saying that TSM is too skilled for NA and so learns nothing from scrimming with them. This to me shows one of the biggest issues with NA eSports - the failure to organize and work to improve together, instead of just looking out for one's own.
It has always been this way in every sport. NA won 59 gold medal out of 60 olympic games in basket ball, why is it ? Because NA is the country where basket comes from and that they have the best infrastructure to train, build, and give enough money to live for young basket ball players. PERIOD.
This has nothing to do with "raw talent", just like korean have no "raw talent" in e-sport. For exemple, french and algerian are the only two countries in the world who always get first in second in "pétanque", why is that ? Because they have history with it, they're the only countries who plays it and where playing it is respected. Same for football (soccer) it's an european game. It doesn't mean there are no young americans who could, if they trained enough, be at the european level, it just means there are no incentive in playing soccer in the US, or at least not the same incentive, so the competition and the level is just lower.
For e-sport, well it's been 10 years that e-sport is a big thing in korean, so they have the infrastructure, being a progamer is respected in those countries (and not in the US) and everybody knows you can live playing video games if you are good enough, so they just attract young promising players, while most young guys just doesn't want to play professionnally in europe or america. The competition is not fierce enough to permit international players or teams to rise. You need time to do all that is needed to bring a lot of young players ready to invest enough in progaming, and people are just too prone to think korea current form has anything to do with being "asian". People need to stop thinking you can be competitiv in a month or two, this is something that needs a lot of time. NA or even EU teams will never rise up to their korean counter parts if they continue thinking it's all a question of training and think they are good enough but just needs to learn their meta. Take this shit seriously please.
On November 05 2012 02:15 Numy wrote: Is English not his first language?
he's posting off of his phone. I know iphones are a bitch to post off of, what with autocorrect, and typos being a lot easier on touch screens. i figure androids are similar.
Jesus, never watched Froggen's stream, but I kept hearing about Lee Sin Froggen all the time while browsing the LoL general threads here. Holy hell, hope he busts it out today.
On November 05 2012 02:06 AsnSensation wrote: After the "close individual skill" and "regi missing 50cs because of 60fps computers" Imma drop this here to finish the TSM & MLG Dallas Chapter^^
Dyrus 8 hours ago via mobile There's nothing on this wall that I can't say that isn't hypocritical thanks to those who understand but for the rest open your eyes. No it's not smite no it's not lack of solo queue I played eight to ten hours a day during the movement process we had zero scrims yes that played a big part yes we got what we deserved you think I don't know that? This is a team I am one part of the team. Yes we need a leader a manager a schedule. We lost two events in a row were to used to winning in the NA scene. You want to make a difference? I'm motivated but there's no solid practice I can go to like the Asians can. Think about it azubu blaze frost making can scrim vs each other top level. All I can do is get a Korean account Taiwan account and learn from the current best Who and where do you think the roots are? I am the best top laners in NA self proclaimed. I have the biggest champion pool and player capacity to play every role at a top level in NA. Only two games of playing against maknoon has taught me his runes masteries and play style. I can easily copy it up to 70% until I'm not lazy with my mechanics. I can relearn jax and singe d in a week. But you have to understand my understanding of the game comes all the way from closed beta. The skill gap between players is not wide with the exception of toyzz though that Guy is a beast. But what is the huge gap is team work communication and goals. Also the love for the game. If I only played singed jax for three years my Rep would be stupid amplified. Two trick pony or not. Anyways thanks for reading typing on android op ^^ just gotta remake my name for myself in terms of how good I am in the scene. Starting with Darius.
All i see is someone saying hes the greatest after he got stomped on. He says he will remake himself but i dont see it happening. GL to you dyrus. Go be the best top of the worst tops in the pro world.
Jesus, never watched Froggen's stream, but I kept hearing about Lee Sin Froggen all the time while browsing the LoL general threads here. Holy hell, hope he busts it out today.
Against Blaze I would not try this, simply because WIcked does not have the capacity to support it with an AP top laner. Snoopeh is going to have to jungle AP and of course be 5 levels behind and if froggen does not get fed as hell like he did then vs TSM it is gg...
On November 04 2012 19:47 Feartheguru wrote: The purpose of a job is ultimately to make money. If their net return from a smaller amount of tournament wins + stream revenue is greater than what they can get from more tournament wins then it's the right strategy for them.
That's fine, but it should also mean that people need to stop justifying them and making excuses.
They're not good because it's not the most financially practical option for them, simple as that. No need for any other excuses.
They're still good, just not Korean level goodness.
Better than you, you might say.
By all rights, every member of the Charlotte Bobcats is better than me at basketball, but they're still an awful team compared to everyone else getting paid to play.
Perspective, please. Until they have some real results again, they deserve the criticism they're getting.
Somebody has to be the worst professional team, that's just the way it works. Sometimes these tiers happen to be structured by region. Look at the US when it comes to soccer, we just don't have the talent to keep up with most of the European teams that take soccer much more seriously. Lack of practice plays a role, but there's also a lack of raw talent. Same thing with LoL. They have more time and a better sense for the game than we do. Still, the pro players are still pro for a reason because in NA they are better than most people.
The biggest issue with this comparison is that I personally think NA's shitty performance compared to other regions is due almost exclusively to their lack of practice. There is a lot of talent in the US scene. OddOne, Doublelift, Chauster, Chaox, Xpecial, Nyjacky, Salce, Aphromoo, qtpie, scarra, and honestly even jiji have the raw talent to compete with anyone in the same role in other regions imo. The weaker players on their team are fine, they can improve and even if they stay weak they probably won't be the reason why these teams are losing to Asians or CLGeu/M5. Especially since top Asian teams have weak links too.
But your weak links start to look a lot better and a lot less weak if you practice hardcore and iron out their mistakes. There's no good reason a team like TSM or CLG or Dignitas that do have the raw talent to compete with the top teams can't.
I don't buy the idea that you can't become good without any solid scrim partners, I think it's bullshit because that's just not what practice in other established sports looks like - at all. If you look at Messi for example, the guy runs, then passes, then runs, then he forms a triangle with his friends and runs around while passing and then he finishes the day with a mock 5v5 scrim where they use minigoals. Messi does not scrim real madrid 10 hours a day, infact, nobody on his team scrims real madrid 10 hours a day and yet, he's arguably the best player in the world on one of the best teams in the world in a sport that's so much more established and figured out than an infantile LoL where supposedly top-notch pros can't even flash and last hit properly.
EPT
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