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On August 19 2011 03:26 JBright wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 03:23 Insanious wrote:
One of the hidden benefits of wriggles is it reduces the burden on support for gold. When you have 3 wriggles, that's 3 free wards. This makes it so that the support can either afford to ward better, or can afford to get a little more gear.
Supports are already gold starved, and is why people get 5g/10 items on them. With triple wriggles its a way to give your support a little more gold to work with without giving them any CS. I noticed that Xpecial's Janna was able to buy a negatron cloak and a blasting want in the last game. You wouldn't normally see that much gold from a support that has to provide all the wards for his team.
Well keep in mind they also had like 3 dragons and a baron's worth of gold.
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On August 19 2011 03:40 Ecael wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 03:26 JBright wrote:On August 19 2011 03:23 Insanious wrote:
One of the hidden benefits of wriggles is it reduces the burden on support for gold. When you have 3 wriggles, that's 3 free wards. This makes it so that the support can either afford to ward better, or can afford to get a little more gear.
Supports are already gold starved, and is why people get 5g/10 items on them. With triple wriggles its a way to give your support a little more gold to work with without giving them any CS. I noticed that Xpecial's Janna was able to buy a negatron cloak and a blasting want in the last game. You wouldn't normally see that much gold from a support that has to provide all the wards for his team. Well keep in mind they also had like 3 dragons and a baron's worth of gold.
Thats due to the wriggles control though.
Wriggles feeds gold to supports without giving them CS or Kills.
Wards from wriggles = less wards needed from support
Wriggles fast killing dragon = more gold to supports
Wriggles fast kiling baron = more gold to supports
Wriggles life steal and armor on carry = carry having to back less often
Wriggles procs = carry can farm in a lane that the carry normally couldn't.
Wriggles feeds 0 CS supports gold, while also making the support's job easier meaning more CS for the carry. As such, you end up with stronger supports and carries.
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This is good point, 3x wards every ward cooldown is a lot of gold stress taken off the support's shoulders. And in general wards are just so badassly awesome and win games.
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On August 19 2011 03:48 Insanious wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 03:40 Ecael wrote:On August 19 2011 03:26 JBright wrote:On August 19 2011 03:23 Insanious wrote:
One of the hidden benefits of wriggles is it reduces the burden on support for gold. When you have 3 wriggles, that's 3 free wards. This makes it so that the support can either afford to ward better, or can afford to get a little more gear.
Supports are already gold starved, and is why people get 5g/10 items on them. With triple wriggles its a way to give your support a little more gold to work with without giving them any CS. I noticed that Xpecial's Janna was able to buy a negatron cloak and a blasting want in the last game. You wouldn't normally see that much gold from a support that has to provide all the wards for his team. Well keep in mind they also had like 3 dragons and a baron's worth of gold. Thats due to the wriggles control though. Wriggles feeds gold to supports without giving them CS or Kills. Wards from wriggles = less wards needed from support Wriggles fast killing dragon = more gold to supports Wriggles fast kiling baron = more gold to supports Wriggles life steal and armor on carry = carry having to back less often Wriggles procs = carry can farm in a lane that the carry normally couldn't. Wriggles feeds 0 CS supports gold, while also making the support's job easier meaning more CS for the carry. As such, you end up with stronger supports and carries.
I can agree with that Wriggle wards decrease the dependency on support's gold for warding, but I can't agree with the rest of that argument. TSM would've got their first dragon regardless of wriggles (rather, they needed 1 of the 2.75 they had at that point at most) with 2 at top and 1 backed. The following dragons weren't so much speedily done either as they were done while Millenium could not contest. The same applies to the baron, which was done after M practically got aced. I can buy the wriggles lifesteal and armor on carry argument, particularly given the fact that Xpecial was on Janna, but without us having a good look at that lane I don't think anything could be said for sure. The same applies for the argument about wriggles proc, which again we can't trace to item choice or the lanes simply playing well/badly. If the solo q games which chaox streamed these few weeks were any indication though, I'd have to say that it is arguable on both of those points too.
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On August 19 2011 04:11 Ecael wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 03:48 Insanious wrote:On August 19 2011 03:40 Ecael wrote:On August 19 2011 03:26 JBright wrote:On August 19 2011 03:23 Insanious wrote:
One of the hidden benefits of wriggles is it reduces the burden on support for gold. When you have 3 wriggles, that's 3 free wards. This makes it so that the support can either afford to ward better, or can afford to get a little more gear.
Supports are already gold starved, and is why people get 5g/10 items on them. With triple wriggles its a way to give your support a little more gold to work with without giving them any CS. I noticed that Xpecial's Janna was able to buy a negatron cloak and a blasting want in the last game. You wouldn't normally see that much gold from a support that has to provide all the wards for his team. Well keep in mind they also had like 3 dragons and a baron's worth of gold. Thats due to the wriggles control though. Wriggles feeds gold to supports without giving them CS or Kills. Wards from wriggles = less wards needed from support Wriggles fast killing dragon = more gold to supports Wriggles fast kiling baron = more gold to supports Wriggles life steal and armor on carry = carry having to back less often Wriggles procs = carry can farm in a lane that the carry normally couldn't. Wriggles feeds 0 CS supports gold, while also making the support's job easier meaning more CS for the carry. As such, you end up with stronger supports and carries. I can agree with that Wriggle wards decrease the dependency on support's gold for warding, but I can't agree with the rest of that argument. TSM would've got their first dragon regardless of wriggles (rather, they needed 1 of the 2.75 they had at that point at most) with 2 at top and 1 backed. The following dragons weren't so much speedily done either as they were done while Millenium could not contest. The same applies to the baron, which was done after M practically got aced. I can buy the wriggles lifesteal and armor on carry argument, particularly given the fact that Xpecial was on Janna, but without us having a good look at that lane I don't think anything could be said for sure. The same applies for the argument about wriggles proc, which again we can't trace to item choice or the lanes simply playing well/badly. If the solo q games which chaox streamed these few weeks were any indication though, I'd have to say that it is arguable on both of those points too.
I wasn't specifically saying this all came out in the game was just saw.
3 Wriggles = faster dragon and baron period. This means you can get away with getting a dragon or baron when you could not other wise. It took like 3 seconds to kill dragon when udyr + ashe + gp were hitting it.
This just turns into more gold, as a team with 3 wriggles will always be able to jungle faster than a team with 0 or 1 wriggles simply due to the stupidly large amount of damage that the wriggles proc does.
We might not have seen it in that game, but in others we might. Just saying that more wriggles = more dragon / baron control = more support gold.
Even if it is just taking a single dragon when you normally could not without the wriggles.
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The other points were about how the wriggles can help a carry farm more. Procs lets someone clear a wave very fast so that they are not vulnrable. We watched udyr do it in that game all the time. Cleared wave and then backed off before Millenium even got to udyr. This keeps udyr save, lets him farm like mad, and reduces availiable gold for the other team.
As well, it allows ashe to farm bottom very quickly. If you noticed ashe killed bottom tower VERY quickly from full once cait took down bottom. She then cleared the waves VERY VERY quickly. The procs helped her push the lane... as the procs always help people push the lane.
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While I cannot prove that armor + life steal = more time in lane... its a pretty easy assumption that if someone who had wriggles vs someone that doesn't, the wriggles player can stay in lane longer due to life steal and taking less damage.
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Wriggles on the jungler is obvious.
Wriggles on Udyr is kinda standard.
Wriggles on ranged AD is mainly a farming, sustain and pushing tool.
I'm pretty sure they didn't get those 3 Wriggles because they wanted to do fast Dragons/Barons. But of course if you get them anyways, you will put them to use.
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Also IIRC they keep picking an inferior ranged AD (one that loses the matchup), so Wriggles is honestly the only way to really stave off a superior AD pick + proper support player. They incidentally get it, and take advantage of it, but you're kidding yourself if you think it's why they're winning games.
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Smash's new theory:
TSM is metaing the meta by rolling with triple wriggle's today in an attempt to trick the other teams that advance into thinking that triple wriggles is something they need to adopt ASAP or face the wrath of TSM's wriggle superiority. By tricking them like this, TSM will open up the option to run an Aura-push comp that will punish the opposing team's commitment to map control and neutral objectives by steamrolling mid at 15 minutes with a 5 man push.
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On August 19 2011 04:26 Mogwai wrote:
Smash's new theory:
TSM is metaing the meta by rolling with triple wriggle's today in an attempt to trick the other teams that advance into thinking that triple wriggles is something they need to adopt ASAP or face the wrath of TSM's wriggle superiority. By tricking them like this, TSM will open up the option to run an Aura-push comp that will punish the opposing team's commitment to map control and neutral objectives by steamrolling mid at 15 minutes with a 5 man push.
speculation.
nothing in that game suggests that the strat will have good base values or good scaling. Riot does say they want auras to be a less sustainable thing, and I trust that they've figured out by now that in order to pull that shit off, you need oh I don't know anymore your paragraph was too specialized..
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On August 19 2011 04:28 Southlight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2011 04:26 Mogwai wrote:
Smash's new theory:
TSM is metaing the meta by rolling with triple wriggle's today in an attempt to trick the other teams that advance into thinking that triple wriggles is something they need to adopt ASAP or face the wrath of TSM's wriggle superiority. By tricking them like this, TSM will open up the option to run an Aura-push comp that will punish the opposing team's commitment to map control and neutral objectives by steamrolling mid at 15 minutes with a 5 man push. speculation. nothing in that game suggests that the strat will have good base values or good scaling. Riot does say they want auras to be a less sustainable thing, and I trust that they've figured out by now that in order to pull that shit off, you need oh I don't know anymore your paragraph was too specialized..
Rebuttal.
But Smash is not talking about the particular game, but rather making an empirical statement about how the aura-push comp has extreme gold efficiency. That enables them to have a huge edge when roaming grouped to roll the other team because of the superior synergy from their item choices. I cannot prove anything but the maths are clear on the matter. Smash is obviously right.
Lantern is the second coming of Locket, you heard it here first.
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On August 19 2011 04:30 Ecael wrote:
Lantern is the second coming of Locket, you heard it here first.
We already had that. Then they made it so you can't lifesteal off the proc anymore.
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Awwww...turn that frown upside down Kelly!
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United States47024 Posts
There's something in particular that TSM has done with their triple Wriggle's strat that also has been very effective--they put one person on the enemy team behind early game, and start applying Baron pressure super-early in order to force that person away from farming pushed lanes. It worked on Amumu when they played vs. myR, and on Jax when they played vs. M. Both of them got super underfarmed, and because they had to constantly respond to that early baron threat, they never got the chance to farm their way back into the game. It was all the worse for Amumu because he got forced into fights before his gp10 was even kicking in after going double gp10.
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Nah that's just the nature of jungle/support when you don't get rolling. Amumu in particular is risky because he's always in demand in teamfights so he rarely has the ability to just peel off and farm. It's why I eventually get frustrated playing him and either take a more aggressive jungler who can set his own pace, or pass it off to someone who can.
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nidalee brand ori Gp ashe banned or used every game it think and noct very common choice
ohhh all these games happened already. i was so confused D:
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Vancouver14381 Posts
On August 19 2011 05:03 wussleeQ wrote:
nidalee brand ori Gp ashe banned or used every game it think and noct very common choice
ohhh all these games happened already. i was so confused D:
This analysis is probably best left for tomorrow. Today's games are just 4 teams playing each other, so a lot of the same heroes are going to be picked/banned.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
lol, holy fuck at that woolite commercial! that was fucking awesome
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Brand is definitely somewhat crazy, but I'm not sure if it's "he's OP" crazy or if he's just a good, solid hero. Depends on how you look at it I guess. Mass damage heroes played well will always look incredibly strong, so...
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On August 19 2011 05:16 Southlight wrote:
Brand is definitely somewhat crazy, but I'm not sure if it's "he's OP" crazy or if he's just a good, solid hero. Depends on how you look at it I guess. Mass damage heroes played well will always look incredibly strong, so...
Yeah I don't know about Brand. I just hate how hard it is to gank him because he'll just kill both of you with hit ulti if you do gank. He's strong but not Orianna level.
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EPT
