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Nice theory crafting there Teuto.
Y I agree my Udyr play there was pathetic. I would be much better even with Talon :-P
I just assumed team is used playing with Udyr and that it was a safe bet.
Maybe it would be better if I played GP jungle (with Teemo top then).
I didn't want Jarvan when we had an emphasis on split push instead of teamfight.
They are even banning Amumu who is still kinda semi-strong in my hands (but aoe-teamfight champ).
Alistar is bottom.. so can't jungle with him.
Haven't played Nunu since his nerfs.
Maybe shoulda played WW.
I definitely have to jungle with Xin a lil bit.
I don't like the idea of Trundle. He can be picked to counter some lineups tho (probably Garenesque like).
I have no exp with Skarner. And Talon is probably too much of a gamble (esp. when I don't feel convenient playing with you guys). Every other jungler I can think of would be rejected for one reason or another. (Fiddle, Trynda, Yi, Shaco, Olaf, Rammus not to mention others)
Those were my first and only games with those ppl.
But exp I got from those games is really nice. And I wanna thx for this opportunity. :-]
BTW. Special thanks to buttersworth :D <3 your account :-P
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Ya all ur junglers are initiate based champions haha.
Skarner is really bad atm shouldn't really play him
Who the hell is that terrorist avec dude?
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My views on supports:
Taric: Good in lane but you can't just stay there and wait you need to get kill or force people to back or play super def. Good with cait/trista/mf
Soraka: With the changes i find soraka amazing even more when we try to split push but she doesn't have any big map presence late game so you kinda need a very strong and scary ap (anivia/morgana/brand). In lane she give crazy amounts of mana to her AD and her heal is still good if they try to kill you (have an hard time sustaining constante dmg) so i think you kinda need to always push your lane with her and have an AD that can harass with mana like cait/kog'maw cause both can harass from far away with mana and both escape ganks pretty well.
Sona: Didn't play her much lately don't know much but feels like she is more teamfight orientated.
Janna: Very weak support early doesn't help at all against harass but amazing protection against ganks and kills attempts. She is good if we just sit and farm and the AD is free of harass (i mostly think of cait, maybe ashe and kog'maw vs none cait lane) though i didn't play her much lately cause you lose too many lanes in soloQ with her (The ad really need to dodge every harass).
She is god-like is fights/team fights mid game and very good in teamfights late game but don't think she gives that much to split.
Alistar: He is good in lane (heal harass esaly but have a hard time to heal from no health to full health) but if you just stay in lane to heal i think it's kinda bad. So either you get "kills" in your lane but you need them to push a little for that and to be full life and lvl3 or 4 when it's happen cause if not it's too esay to dodge W and i think trista is the best AD with alistar for that. Or you need to roam more than i usualy do so you need an AD that can stay alone (kog and cait i think) and controle the aera around dragon (pinks/wards/oracle? which we usualy have when we do ok in lanes).
Imo our best bot lanes should be:
Caitlyn/soraka, kog'maw/soraka with an AP that can limitate other teams engage pretty well.
Alistar/cait-trista-kog'maw if we have a weak ap.
And don't really know what to think of cait/taric.
I should just get oracles as a jungler instead of buying pink wards
I don't think we really need oracle before 20-ish tbh. But i need more help to ward/unward mid and late game (no cv isn't enough especialy if we use it to check stuff or steal buffs) and we need to not let them totaly deny us vision when they got an oracle (which is pretty hard if it's on the jungler).
To help accomplish that i think mid should gank a little more.
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It's not about needing oracle it's about having a strong ganking presence. I can't gank warded lanes and If I can't gank I have to trust you guys not to feed and lose your lanes but then whats the point of playing jungler? All else you can do is sneaky brush ganks hold lanes and give buffs.
I mean I'd love to be able to just farm jungle all game and be high level and more gold but It won't help the team win games and more importantly come back from bad early start or gain an early advantage.
Janna ult is a great counter engage but then you don't have any healing so its a trade off.
Intrix could definitely gank a bit more on champs who can clear a wave and have 30 seconds of time to do something but it only works if
a: a lane is overextended
b: we do a coordinated gank so we can't easily be counter ganked.
c: we have wards cleared or a sneaky gank path.
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Been thinking about not leveling E on anivia. E is amazing for damage and stops people against you from fighting ever just from the threat of 400+ dmg in a second.
It helps me win lanes amazingly however if I level Q and only one in E then in wall at level 4. I can burst a creep lane down with double damage from Q and ulti then gank, however I can not fight 1v1 without any levels in E meaning I would just be constantly farming ganking and playing from towers.
Ideas welcome because after I did this once or twice more ganks would be impossible and obviously ganking at mid wouldn't work as I don't have damage just stun (from brush or avoided) and a low level wall.
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Anivia is to slow to gank bottom unless we constantly remove their wards. Instead you should just get dragon with blue anivia & jungler when you down all their creeps in mid. If we sync our push on both lanes we can take free dragon's easily.
I really don't care much about getting ganks bottom because our strat doesn't really require us to cripple their AD carry, its more important to cripple their tank/jungler because if those go down faster its so much easier to win fights. Especially since we focus them first anyway.
Bottom is fine, has always been fine, even when we lost that game before ppl started dieing I almost had the same CS as that Cait, just because we where being pushed back and playing deffensive didn't mean we where losing.
Kill top & jungler, get easy wins.
In the meanwhile I will play more MF/Kog so I get used to other heroes. I don't like Tristana at all.
Edit:
I also am getting kind of annoyed with the monthly league still not being up yet. And rumours of a patch on that day are kinda making me nervous :3
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I really don't care much about getting ganks bottom because our strat doesn't really require us to cripple their AD carry, its more important to cripple their tank/jungler because if those go down faster its so much easier to win fights. Especially since we focus them first anyway.
I kinda agree and i didn't really wanted to kill bot, just have a little map presence (i know i'm the only one that care but find it so esay to win when we kinda controle the map whereas it's always hard and risky when we don't).
Like if (and i think we should try it as much as possible) bot is pushing we can try to steal blue or pressure them when they try do steal it just to keep them scare and busy so they play more safly than they should. Not sure i you see what i want to say  .
And double gank top when dragon isn't near is always nice.
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Problem is letting their AD free farm and push to tower is bad because it allows 4 man tower dives and a fed AD carry shuts down our team comp pretty much and ganking top and getting kills never seems to help nearly as much with a teemo who doesn't really snowball that much.
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Then don't give them Soraka/Cait because you can't stop that push 2v2.
Thats not what was problematic though.
The problem was everyone coming down and dieing instead of taking towers and splitting up like we always do, and should be doing.
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The point I think is comps like alistar/trist should be able to play agressive vs soraka cait if you coordinate it well. If you're picking an agressive comp you should be able to play agressive if you're not we shoulda picked a different support and AD.
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With trista/alistar vs cait/soraka or janna you can play agressive from like 5min to 7min if you can't do some dmg in that time they are going to totaly shut you down and free farm. Tbh i like alistar less and less. Go soraka such an op champ with cait or kog'maw maybe with mf too not rly (she doesn't have any strong ecape)
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On September 06 2011 01:02 Slayer91 wrote:
It's not about needing oracle it's about having a strong ganking presence. I can't gank warded lanes and If I can't gank I have to trust you guys not to feed and lose your lanes but then whats the point of playing jungler? All else you can do is sneaky brush ganks hold lanes and give buffs.
Controlling buffs (in both jungles) and dragon is a pretty big thing though. And trusting your team not to lose their lanes is a pretty reasonable thing to do - you can't expect to salvage games like you can in solo queue - even if you sometimes manage to do so.
Depending on what kind of jungle role you play in the game, you should pick a champ to fit it. If you expect to need to gank a lot, anything with a strong gank is a good idea - especially when able to gank from unexpected positions. Nocturne, Lee Sin, Fiddle, maybe Jarvan come to mind. If you're more about controlling the map, controlling buffs, champs like Nunu and Trundle are pretty good. I'm not sure where champs like GP, Udyr and Amumu fit in here (and probably some more champs).
Of course, there's also the counterganking/jungling. You're not the only jungler in the game and the guy on the other team is trying to achieve something as well. Disrupting him and taking him out of the game will bend any midgame fight in your favour.
Also, as a jungler you're forcing your opponents to stay on top of their wards and their awareness. Even the threat of a gank can sometimes be enough to make them play more passive rather than the actual gank - saving your lane or at least giving it some breathing room. You can also do this by invading their jungle, forcing them to react or lose something there, etc.
Alternatively, play a jungler with Teleport/Smite and ward-gank from everywhere!
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I want Janna or Soraka on my lane ; ;
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Good tip for people who want different heroes :D, don't all go afk when I ask what you want. I would prefer Janna over Soraka for split pushing as she can counter a hard initiate which we usually do not want. However she is hard to play and will require some practice together.
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On September 06 2011 19:39 Gurdjieff wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2011 01:02 Slayer91 wrote:
It's not about needing oracle it's about having a strong ganking presence. I can't gank warded lanes and If I can't gank I have to trust you guys not to feed and lose your lanes but then whats the point of playing jungler? All else you can do is sneaky brush ganks hold lanes and give buffs.
Controlling buffs (in both jungles) and dragon is a pretty big thing though. And trusting your team not to lose their lanes is a pretty reasonable thing to do - you can't expect to salvage games like you can in solo queue - even if you sometimes manage to do so. Depending on what kind of jungle role you play in the game, you should pick a champ to fit it. If you expect to need to gank a lot, anything with a strong gank is a good idea - especially when able to gank from unexpected positions. Nocturne, Lee Sin, Fiddle, maybe Jarvan come to mind. If you're more about controlling the map, controlling buffs, champs like Nunu and Trundle are pretty good. I'm not sure where champs like GP, Udyr and Amumu fit in here (and probably some more champs). Of course, there's also the counterganking/jungling. You're not the only jungler in the game and the guy on the other team is trying to achieve something as well. Disrupting him and taking him out of the game will bend any midgame fight in your favour. Also, as a jungler you're forcing your opponents to stay on top of their wards and their awareness. Even the threat of a gank can sometimes be enough to make them play more passive rather than the actual gank - saving your lane or at least giving it some breathing room. You can also do this by invading their jungle, forcing them to react or lose something there, etc. Alternatively, play a jungler with Teleport/Smite and ward-gank from everywhere!
The point of a jungler is to make sure you lanes don't lose. A jungler who blames his laners for getting owned is a bad jungler. Unless you gank them as best you can and they STILL lose hard.
Dragon and buff control is no brainer. Dragon should be warded and theres dragon control. Do it if their team dies or 2 of them have to gank bot or their jungler ganks top when you already have wriggles.
Counter jungling is really weak and easy to counter after early game. They will lose like 20% of a level and for ganking a lane its easily worth it. Stealing their buffs is basically something you do only when you know their mid backed because otherwise you'll probably die unless you coordinate it with your team. (i.e 3v3 fight when their top lane is pushed to tower and is low hp) Their jungler is most likely going to be taking their buffs very shortly after that spawned and if they warded the river it's really risky.
Forcing them to ward the lane is something you do automatically and they won't have to play passive in a warded lane.
Your post has contributed nothing really. All you said is things I do basically automatically it doesn't help the problem that if I don't gank I'm not doing my job correctly. Thus I need pink wards or oracles at some point to jungle properly in ranked 5's.
Map control is a poorly defined concept and what it means to most people is "killing wards" (aka oracles/pink wards)
Teleport smite is retarded because a laner can take teleport and use it to help in lane as well as dragon control and also being able to TP gank not to mention not having flash is suicide on every but lee sin and shaco. (and recommended on both).
People usually come up with loads of these terms as reasoning for not ganking but really there's 2 things you can do jungling and ganking and you can easily just end up jungling all game if you are inefficient in your jungle routes and attempt lots of ganks before realizing it won't happen and running back half way to go somewhere else. You need to watch the enemy laners to see how agressive they are and watch the creep waves to see which ones will be pushing and where. Then you need to make sure they don't see you coming. They are the only reliable ways to gank without wasting time sitting in a brush hoping they do something stupid.
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The highest tier junglers LeeSin and Nocturne can circumvent warded lanes by ganking from straight down the lane, which is alright. Trundle is pretty decent at ganking down a lane as well.
Picking Amumu or WW means that generally 1 ward is enough to shut you down top and bot, although they both gives you a very tight grip on mid as they both have methods of ensuring a kill as long as your has any sort of respectable burst (though taking gp mid counters this a lot). Fiddle is annoying because he takes at least 2 wards to counter all the potential spots he can caw caw from.
Udyr and Olaf can't gank for shit anywhere against any competent enemies, so they spend most of their time invading and it's on them that you'd get fast oracles because if they play smart they are fairly immune to being caught running around.
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It's really unreliable to gank straight down a lane as lee sin because you have to bait the other guy into attacking so you can land E. Also creeps tend to block any hope you have of Qing. Normally the best you get from that kind of gank is a flash, while getting rid of wards prevents them from farming at all if they over extend that much leaving a lot of pressure off your lane.
Noct is just a faceroll jungler lol.
WW provides a lot of pressure on mid but all 3 lanes can herp derp herp before he's 6 and even after 6 his ganks aren't exceptional except with an AP dude in lane.
Think he's not picked so much because he's so easily kited but doesn't have that much burst once his ult is done, but he's probably still viable.
I think the last time I got oracles was on udyr because intrix was like "Hey you should get oracles they are buying tons of wards" and I ended up killing like AT LEAST 10 wards before I died lol.
Udyr ganks are pretty damn strong its just not on mid lane and not if you dont come in from behind them. If you have red you'll often get a kill even after flash.
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I would prefer Janna over Soraka for split pushing as she can counter a hard initiate which we usually do not want. However she is hard to play and will require some practice together.
The thing is janna will help to push the tower a little (basicly only shield which is good but not that much and tend to be better when you don't split cause janna going to be on the lane holding them and no actualy hitting the tower).
Help to heal the team up IF:
- We won a team fight (either killed some or force them to teleport back) which shouldn't really happen.
- We are pocking at each other and we are kinda in the lead (so janna heal and we can dive) which shouldn't happen either.
So in the end the only thing she is good at is counter engage (slow+tornado+ulti = we can always run away if we don't do majore screw up).
Can be good if we have strong picks but nobody to hold them still.
In the end i think janna is pretty bad if we want to split push cause we should have an 2ppl that can push (top/ad or ad/jungle but don't really like it) and a AP or jungle that can really keep them buissy by himself (morgana/anivia/brand/swain?/?)
Where in the same team soraka is just amazing to split push. The heal is still very strong (reach 40% cdr pretty fast), the ulti can help a lot split too and the mana regen is just crazy good. You can back someone from oom with no life to full life and enough mana to do his job in less than a minute.
On jungler subject: I agree with teut BUT i think that you don't need to force a back or have a kill on a gank to be more than succesfull (it's obviously always better) but bringing someone to mid life while your mate in lane was mostly unharmed in the game is a huge help to lane (free farm and way safer than before).
And don't really like ww/jarvan/fiddle if we continue to split push. Don't really like trundle but he might be good to push lanes safely.
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95% monthly won't be this week..
there is EMS quali no2 this thursday
By the way Nenyim.. You scared me away from going into Nocturne's jungle in last match. :-[
After I got blue really fast (even without smiting) I wanted to go do their 3 wraiths really fast (smiting big one) and then gank (probably top) or sth and you'd seen that and said "he is going to his wraiths right now". which actually wasn't true :-/
So I had this 3-4 sec of 'thinkin pause'.. then it was too late (and too dangerous if you were right) to go his jungle and I was really late on my own wolves. :\
That is not excuse (or poor excuse) for bad play but this set me on same foot with Noct when I could got adv there (another example of me thinking TL.EU wants to play safe instead of exploiting their weaknesses - esp lvl1).. so I was scared of going to their jungle later on. :-P
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Lol, trust your instincts. Of course noct didn't finish wolves yet, and if he did there would be no risk of dying even just going in and smiting the big wraith.
I think TL.EU wanted you to play a jungler, everything else you just made up in your head  always do what you think is the best move instead of trying to superficially do what you think people want.
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EPT
