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Ethelis
United States2397 Posts
On June 08 2014 09:14 arb wrote: I feel like you dont need to roam as hard cause you can use your ult and contribute almost as much as she does int he time shes walking, expect you get to farm while doing it Your jungler won't appreciate it though. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
When making a claim like that, it would be good to also link your lolking profile at the very least, so we know what rank we're talking about here. | ||
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dae
Canada1600 Posts
On June 08 2014 13:24 Ketara wrote: I'd be interested in an explanation of how Karthus possibly beats Lux in lane. When making a claim like that, it would be good to also link your lolking profile at the very least, so we know what rank we're talking about here. Karthus can farm safely against Lux (fairly, though theres not much he can't farm vs) and if he runs teleport is basically assured to be able to farm till lategame, where he outscales Lux, regardless if Lux picks up a kill or two. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On June 08 2014 09:14 arb wrote: I feel like you dont need to roam as hard cause you can use your ult and contribute almost as much as she does int he time shes walking, expect you get to farm while doing it Sure, but you don't have an easy lane because lux's e/q can zone you due to her auto attack strength advantage(strength, animation, burst) and can zone you in team fights with e/combo. Sure you can farm ok as Karthus and you can probably get some off lane pressure by shoving mid and ulting. But in a team fight you don't have a good way to get into the fight without being obliterated. To me it feels kind of like the Karthus/Veigar matchup. Sure Karthus can farm easy enough in lane, and he can help out other lanes by ulting and taking Veigar's tower. But Veigar's E still zones him(until third/fourth item when Karthus can get BV), and his combo still reduces karthus to an ult-bot at pretty much any point in the game, and a roam by Veigar/Lux will do more than losing mid tower will so long as the Veigar/Lux take an objective with the roam. Beating Lux as Karthus seems like its your jungler doing more of the work. Your jungler has to prevent the effective Lux roam so that your farming makes a difference. In team fights the rest of your team has to help overcome your weakness to Lux's zone control so that you don't die too far away from their team. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Which is your hope if you're the Karthus. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5218 Posts
But anyway, Karthus vs Viegar is tough, not so much early game, but later because he can burst you down so quickly, forcing you to buy a BV and lots of MR. Karthus vs Lux is easy, and you absolutely don't need the junglers help. Either Lux plays passive and you both farm and you beat her badly mid and late game, or she is aggressive trying to kill you early. I prefer to play versus the aggressive Lux. Basically, if Lux misses her Q (or Karthus dodges it) and Karthus had mana, she is dead. Karthus just throws down his W, activates E, and moves toward her and as long as he hits a few Q's she is dead. If she flashes, he flashes to catch her. The key here is being able to dodge her Q and hit your Q's. And that comes down to positioning. You need to know where you can be and where you can't be, and where she is going to be to land your Q's and dodge her spells. Master positioning and you'll master Karthus and any other champs that don't have mobility spells. Probably the reason I am also good at Ashe too. Karthus is really the ultimate counter puncher mid. I love facing Fizz, Ahri, Lux... ect... because if they miss any of their spells, you can easily finish them. However, you cannot initiate on them until they burn said spells. I will say that Karthus cannot roam well, but that doesn't mean you're losing. Occasionally, you can roam and use W to setup kills, but basically you're stuck mid and you'll use your ult to assist other lanes. A good Karthus makes sure to push hard and call mia when his lane is roaming. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
Basically what do you do if she E's and then auto's you? Do you respond with w into Q spam? If you W she Q's you and backs off, winning the trade taking a single Q to E,Q,auto. And your Q has to go through her shield. What do you do if she E's you and then zones you until the light comes off then E's you again? I mean sure if you play against a lux who just throws her Q out willy nilly then you can dodge that and go ham but i can't see that working on someone who uses e. I mean, if you do catch her with her Q down, not having used her E she can always force you out by dropping the e in your way and running, you won't catch up while stopping for your q animation. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Dai and I agree that Lux beats Karthus in lane. BronzeKnee's argument for how you beat Lux as Karthus is based around Lux missing Q's, which means he's playing against bad Lux's. This is how Lux loses a lot of matchups. The correct way to play Lux is to not use Q at all in lane, unless you meet one of two requirements: 1 - Not using it is going to get you killed 2 - Using it and missing it is not going to get you killed The way Lux beats Karthus, as with most matchups where she outranges an opponent with no appreciable engage, is by never using Q and just hitting him with E's on cooldown until he either has to leave the lane or risk getting killed by her ult. There's no way Karthus can stop her from doing this as her E outranges all of his spells and he has no built in sustain. At best Karthus can, as Dai said, keep up reasonably in farm and make it to late game where he will outscale her whether or not she got a few kills early in the game. But that's not "winning the lane", that is losing the lane and outscaling later in the game. I'm not seeing any insights or innovations beyond the above in this discussion, and any further discussion is IMO just epenises talking and I don't really want it in the thread. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
Isn't this thread meant for discussing Lux and his matchups? I think BronzeKnee's points are pretty valid and hardly seem to be "epenises" talking, save the part where you ask him to post his lolking. This whole discussion started from your comment that Lux here: On June 06 2014 01:29 Ketara wrote: Another patch another post. And another patch that had little to do with mid lane, and little to do with champions being buffed. So, Lux is basically the same this patch. Hopefully the Karthus VU will bring a rise in Karthus play, since Lux does very well against him. She can stop his ult from killing people and she's good at shutting him down in lane. With the focus on ADC itemization in the next patch forecast I anticipate mid lane not having dramatic changes for a while. I think the Lux Karthus matchup is well worth discussing especially because he's currently viewed as a strong pick thanks to the tweaks his Q. (or bug as some would call it) PS. As an aside, I got to say your guide is beautiful looking though. Kind of reminds me of Atrioc's legendary guides. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
This is how you play as Lux vs. Karthus. Don't shove the wave, E him a lot. Don't use Q unless you have to. Karth can kill you level 1-2 if you screw up and underestimate his damage, but if you don't screw up, you should be shoving him out of the lane repeatedly. You should have a CS lead and you should take his tower. It's really up to him whether or not you kill him, if he sticks around when he's low you can get kills, but if he backs a lot and gives up the lane it's difficult to get kills. However, in that situation you can take his tower, roam and apply pressure elsewhere. This is honestly very typical of a lot of Lux matchups. When Lux is winning, she's not dominating the opposition. She forces them to back over and over and over and builds up a small advantage, which she hopefully leverages into mid game teamfights and roaming. Ideally, by the time Karthus reaches late game, Lux has gotten her team ahead by using the mid game pressure she applies to secure map objectives and maintain a gold lead. It is the same playstyle as Ziggs honestly. They're real similar champions. Ziggs is still just seen as the superior pick for it because he does more damage than Lux does. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5218 Posts
On June 12 2014 05:30 Ketara wrote: BronzeKnee's argument for how you beat Lux as Karthus is based around Lux missing Q's, which means he's playing against bad Lux's. This is how Lux loses a lot of matchups. I don't think you understand. If I dodge the Q, I win because Karthus has the skills to easily defeat in Lux in lane. It comes down to the abilities of the champion. And with good position, it is pretty easy to dodge her Q, even if you need to burn flash to dodge it, you can kill Lux. The same can't be said about Zyra, she is a nightmare for Karthus, even if she misses her root spell, she can out damage him. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5218 Posts
On June 12 2014 13:17 Ketara wrote: You can't dodge a snare that hasn't been cast yet. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Ever heard that? Wayne Gretzky laid down that nugget of truth. So yeah, I dodge 100% of the shots you never cast. If you cast and I dodge, I will kill you. If you don't cast, then I can free farm and carry. Karthus is a lot stronger than Lux in team fights, you don't want him farmed. This isn't about my e-penis, which is admittedly huge... this is about Lux just not being a good matchup for Karthus. People think champs like Lux or Fizz are, but I eat them alive regularly. Just the way LOL and champion counters work. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5218 Posts
On June 12 2014 13:41 Ketara wrote: I guess since you're going to be like this, we should play it out. I am interested in this. Haha... be like what? My name is BronzeKnee on LOL, friend me. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On June 12 2014 13:31 BronzeKnee wrote: You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. Ever heard that? Wayne Gretzky laid down that nugget of truth. So yeah, I dodge 100% of the shots you never cast. If you cast and I dodge, I will kill you. If you don't cast, then I can free farm and carry. Karthus is a lot stronger than Lux in team fights, you don't want him farmed. This isn't about my e-penis, which is admittedly huge... this is about Lux just not being a good matchup for Karthus. People think champs like Lux or Fizz are, but I eat them alive regularly. Just the way LOL and champion counters work. Yeah I can see that too lol. I mean Karthus can farm from almost 1000 range away and do that in all but the most brutal of matchups, vs something like zed or anything witha hard gap closer. And it doesnt change the fact Karthus is in most cases the hardest scaling mid in the game anyway. I could see Karthus winning this tbh. It's like those people that think Fizz beats Swain when the opposite is alot closer to the truth or something | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
The correct way to play Lux is to not use Q at all in lane, unless you meet one of two requirements: 1 - Not using it is going to get you killed 2 - Using it and missing it is not going to get you killed Your 2- makes it a huge blanket statement that can be applied to any and all abilities in the game, though. On the other hand, if Lux misses her Q and she isn't too close to Karthus, even if he hits his W she can drop her E between them and run away, the slow will prevent Karthus from hitting too many Qs or enter Defile range, nothing Lux's obnoxious "oh you don't deal instant burst? GET FUCKED" shield can't handle. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
There are many MANY lanes as Lux where if you attempt to snare somebody and miss, it creates a window where they can all in you and gain a big advantage. What's preventing them from doing that all in is not your snare, it is the threat that you COULD snare them and combo them. Once that threat is gone, you lose your lane pressure. Further, in most matchups Lux does not actually need to snare people to harass them out of lane. All you need to do is hit E's reliably, and your E outranges basically everyone in the game who isn't Ziggs or Xerath. So in many matchups, it is important to not use Q at all unless you're 100% positive that it's a good idea for that situation. Using it haphazardly can easily lose you the lane. I actually learned this piece of information doing 1v1's with Navi, and it played a big part in taking me from gold to plat, I think. | ||
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