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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On July 07 2013 06:26 GrandInquisitor wrote: How do you reconcile the desire for early kills and aggression with purchasing a Tear, a 700g item that won't do anything for a long time? Mana is a very good offensive stat if you can use it. With pantheon it'll be pretty easy to abuse. | ||
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Chrispy
Canada5878 Posts
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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Imbu
United States903 Posts
Time to go unlock Panth now and give it a try :D. | ||
Kiett
United States7639 Posts
Although I see that some of the images have a bit of jpeg artifact. I would recommend reuploading them as PNGs, would improve the quality a lot  | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
nice work | ||
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Atrioc
United States1865 Posts
I'm gonna try and respond to all the direct questions: On July 07 2013 03:19 JonnyLaw wrote: Atrioc how do you feel about top lane Panth? I know you addressed it in passing in the guide. When I play against Pantheon in the top lane I feel like on a bruiser I can just run him out of mana with consumables, back and get some armor, dshield whatever and not feel threatened. Or pick a ranged champ, think Kennen, Ryze, Jayce and farm to outscale him. Look for good ults mid, try to invade with jungler when you're strong early or push them to tower? I feel like top lane Panth is, generally, not a good pick: has too many tough matchups (mostly people that are super comfortable just stacking armor, like you mentioned), his spear harass is not helped by the long lane + ability to hide in bushes, his already annoying global jungler taunt becomes a true nightmare (especially when trying to go agressive early), and really worst of all is that he has a much harder time ulting bot lane at the right time (his ability to gank that lane so effectively is the single strongest unique thing about Pantheon currently) However, that doesn't mean I wont pick him here occasionally and I certainly wont be afraid to swap lanes with my top laner after the game has started if we think it will be a more favorable matchup. A lot of times in top lane I'm relying on outplaying the opponent with aggression and relying on their being really unfamiliar with the matchup (How many times has this renekton played vs a competent Pantheon top really?) - Pantheon also combos amazingly well with jungler ganks so if your team has the more aggressive carnivore jungler (say Jarvan vs Maokai) you can actually snowball the game outright by setting up a 2v2 top lane or two-man invading the enemy's jungle. Definitely ult mid whenever possible, try to get them snowballing so hard that they can roam and win bot lane like you would have. On July 07 2013 03:26 Alaric wrote: That must be a bitch to edit and update (you may want to use the [anchor] tag and links in your table of contents too, to make it easier to navigate the guide since we can't use the search function because of the pictures). Props for the efforts, it obviously took a lot of work. Quick questions: - you mention Malzahar as a pretty favourable match-up, is that because of his low mobility to respond to your roaming? He has very good (and pretty much free) pushing, coupled with harass if you don't position well (made harder by being a melee), and long range which lets him E you at will when you come up to Q him (he doesn't refund mana nor pushes this way though, and at early levels the cooldown leaves him vulnerable unless he has a Voidling to zone you). Can't he just play passive and punish you with his jungler for having to pressure so far? - same with Annie, her Q has the same cooldown and a bit more range than yours, coupled with more base damage and her autoattacks to make up for you having more MR than she has armour. Her passive makes this harass worse by allowing more autos. Is it about threatening a 2-5 all-in (since your autos and E hit harder to make up for her previous harass) so she doesn't stay around too long? - What is the point of the Perseus build/Tear start? You're weaker early game because of the 700 gold which only give you mana that some pots would give you for much less, and for raw damage a BT associated with his scaling would give more (assuming a total pool of ~2000 mana, giving Muramana 60 AD and a diminishing 120 damage on-hit/ability effect, Muramana does more at first on Qs and autos, but less on E). It weakens your pushing power because it delays the point at which you have enough AD to one-shot the waves (the reason why I skip brutaliser if I can get a fast BT, even if it means coming to lane with a bunch in bank, super-push 2-3 waves and back for BFS asap), it doesn't give its damage very soon so you can't really burst/assassinate as well. In exchange, you handle tanky/sustain lanes better because you can't be run oom and you get a stronger single target damage output later—at the cost of sustain (important for dueling too) and coming at a timing where you peak has already passed (you give a ~30 minutes estimation). However, it is also pretty smooth, because a Tear is easy to build, and getting the Manamune is only 400 then 1000 gold, compared to 1550 for BT's or 1025 for LW's single highest increments. I'm having trouble seeing the point you make for a Tear opening (and later Muramana) being the currently best one. Is it because, while I see the others as good and Tear underwhelming, you see the others as greedy while Tear is the most consistent? @Malzahar matchup - Everything you say is totally correct, and I think a mistake-free Malzahar would be actually quite difficult to lane against. Generally what I've found though is that because he brings no CC pre-6, I can either play quite aggressive, especially with proper map awareness/jungler awareness, and even if I'm ganked I'm looking a lot more at blowing flash than actually being killed, OR I will play safer and chug consumables while they push the wave towards me and leave themselves extremely vulnurable to a jungler gank of my own. Once I get ahead in this matchup I find it very easy to punish him (hes very vulnerable to the fake roam-> he pushes thinking you are gone -> you skyfall right on his head, often with your jungler popping out too). I agree its not as cut and dry as I made it seem though! @Annie matchup - I've never found her to be able to trade effectively at all. Her Q does have a longer range, but its fairly long casting animation and Pantheon's high movespeed means Its near impossible to not at least trade a spear back to her every single time. It has a slightly higher base damage, but she also has a lower base health, health per level, and base armor than you have base magic resistance. If she throws in an auto during the Q trade its blocked by your passive. Definitely play safe while her stun is up, but I don't go into this matchup afraid! @Tear start - This evolved out of a lot of studying of Kassadin (I wanted to learn/improve on him) and how the best item on the first back, whether it was for going offensively in lane, defensively in lane, or building for mid/late game on him, was tear of the goddess for all of the above. Pantheon (with the Q trading, strong melee attack that you try to squeeze in whenever possible, and a relatively weak "E" until its leveled up) had a similar playstyle in laning to me, and so as I experimented with it I was finding that it covered a lot of holes in my game and - should I get ahead - really allowed me to snowball uncontrollably. As someone else mentioned, mana can be an extremely effective offensive stat, and 700 Gold is really phenomenally cheap (for the same price I could return with a long sword + pots, which I have not found to be more effective in giving me lane dominance, especially when I already started flask). For the small upfront investment, I get: - Complete freedom from mana concerns for the entire game - Similiarly, while I may be later in being able to one-shot the waves, I can freely use my spear/E on the wave / wraith camp / wolf camp because I have no mana concerns in spamming my spear/"E" to take it down, and generally find that I have actually a lot more ability to farm, rather than less. - Freedom to give my jungler blues -> being able to give your jungler the 2nd blue buff especially is so huge in solo queue in my experience. I can think of a LOT of times where my level 5 Amumu/Maokai/Skarner/Eve/etc. has hit level 6 off of taking the blue buff for themselves and gone on to make plays with that advantage. Being able to give them more freedom to make plays while not sacrificing anything in my own lane is pretty huge to me. *Edit* I also forgot to agree with you - it has a super smooth build path that lets you get slightly stronger every time that you back! On July 07 2013 06:48 Chrispy wrote: This is so beautiful. The text might be a tad bit too small on some parts though. O I heard that from some of my friends who have different monitor resolution than me and I'm definitely looking into it - I want it to be readable by anyone! On July 07 2013 08:24 Kiett wrote: Very nice guide. Although I see that some of the images have a bit of jpeg artifact. I would recommend reuploading them as PNGs, would improve the quality a lot As far as I know I saved/uploaded them all as PNG-24, but I notice some of what you are talking about too! Is that a byproduct of uploading them on imgur or something? Is there anything I can do to sharpen it to get exactly what I'm seeing in Photoshop? Again, thanks everyone! | ||
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Shelke14
Canada6655 Posts
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upperbound
United States2300 Posts
Seriously though, it's not even fair how good this guide looks. Content is A+ as well. Thanks! | ||
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Kiett
United States7639 Posts
On July 07 2013 08:52 Atrioc wrote: As far as I know I saved/uploaded them all as PNG-24, but I notice some of what you are talking about too! Is that a byproduct of uploading them on imgur or something? Is there anything I can do to sharpen it to get exactly what I'm seeing in Photoshop? Yes, imgur will compress all images larger than 1mb (PNG files are quite large, so this is likely to happen), which would explain why some of your images are PNG and some have been turned into JPG. Instead of imgur, I would suggest hosting directly on TL with your staff uploads. No size limits or bad compression! :D p.s. were you the one in that dyrus/chaox 0-13 comeback game haha | ||
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Atrioc
United States1865 Posts
On July 07 2013 09:52 Kiett wrote: Yes, imgur will compress all images larger than 1mb (PNG files are quite large, so this is likely to happen), which would explain why some of your images are PNG and some have been turned into JPG. Instead of imgur, I would suggest hosting directly on TL with your staff uploads. No size limits or bad compression! :D p.s. were you the one in that dyrus/chaox 0-13 comeback game haha Thank you so much, I'll do that ASAP. and yes, I was the one directly responsible for throwing the game haha. So embarrassing T_T. | ||
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Shelke14
Canada6655 Posts
gotta lower my deaths of course, most cs in the game too.. woop | ||
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NeedsmoreCELLTECH
Netherlands1242 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Because I know concision as much as Pa…] + - mids are less likely to plain rush Tabi or Guardian's Mail against you, removing part of the "arms race" which requires you to keep piling on ArPen/AD lest you become useless (as you need to put huge pressure on whoever you face). So you gain freedom in itemisation (including Tear) when playing mid. - mids are often squishier (be it base stats or masteries/runes setups), requiring less hits (# of spears) to get in kill range. Compared to top lane, where you build damage to maintain that #, in mid lane building something else would keep the # constant while building damage would lower it. So you don't technically lose out by going Tear—you only don't win right now, and the problem of delaying power for the low-scaling Pantheon is addressed in the next point - like you mentioned, Pantheon thrives hard on enemy mistakes as a strong laning/early game champion who relies on snowballing. Thus, he becomes less effective as you go higher—that's the conclusion, the preceding reasoning being that less mistakes means you don't snowball as hard and some itemisation path are closed to you—as a Silver I player I'm more likely than you to be able to go BT first because people in my games will make more mistakes on average and feed me/give me the gold to go down those itemisation paths. As you go higher, you need your build and playstyle to become more consistent to be able not to rely on enemy play rather than your own. Going Tear may lock you out of that straight BT if you go 3-0 during the first 5 minutes, but since it's a scenario far less likely to happen in your games, the loss-on-average gets lower the better your opponents become. While it is not a concern for one-off games at low level, if you plan on improving and climbing you have take that into account (eg. it's never too early to get good habits). - I just noticed that Muramana actually triggers on your W, meaning Panth's single-target burst is actually stronger than I thought with it. You seem to favour 1 on 1 duels and waiting for an opportunity to pounce on the backline while my teamfighting/late game playstyle revolves more around hitting several money 3-man HSS for 1300 damage each, so obviously I get more mileage out of raw AD. It's all fine, except for that part where Panth doesn't charge Tear too fast and thus spends some time lacking the early damage from AD/ArPen buys while not yet having enough mana for to make up for it with sheer amount of spells cast at the enemy. The issue being that it combines with the levels 5-9 where he's looking to snowball, and thus where burst and ensuring kills (and thus objectives) is important to him. Or at least I'm under the impression that Tear hinders the timing at which Panth wants raw impact the most. I haven't really played Tear Pantheon, nor have I played him as much as you (nor at the same level), especially recently, so I'm gonna have to trust your experience on that one, try it out for myself and judge if I'm simply off on the time where Tear takes off or if its because of me not playing it properly. Also, you advise to take Ghost rather than Flash in the jungle. Is it because you'll have inherently less damage than a laning Pantheon, making dps more important than burst, and thus Ghost's chasing capabilities stronger when ganking/invading? | ||
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rigelq
United States230 Posts
Great guide! | ||
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UniversalSnip
9871 Posts
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Nuiyuki
Germany2 Posts
Could you help me please :c Many friends of mine tell me to start Q > W > E and then maxing Q > E > W, would that be okay ? o: | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On July 07 2013 17:05 Nuiyuki wrote: Hay Atrioc, I'm new to Pantheon and don't know the skill order for him. Could you help me please :c Many friends of mine tell me to start Q > W > E and then maxing Q > E > W, would that be okay ? o: I'm not Atrioc, but skill order for Pantheon is pretty straightforward and doesn't change much. You pretty much always max R>Q>E>W. You want to get a point in W at level 2. So your opening skill setup should be QWQEQR. The reason behind that is because your E honestly doesn't do that much damage at level 1~2. Its damage is mostly from the absurd scaling of the ability. W is used just for the stun and to proc your passive. The damage on it is not really a factor in most situations. Also, you want to do QWQEQ because as Pantheon, your laning revolves around you being able to poke your opponent down with your Qs. As such, your strong points in lane are levels 1, 3, and 5; basically every time you level up Q. Early on, your E is more valuable for the 100% crit passive and to proc your passive. It's not until you get items and more levels in E where it really starts to hurt. | ||
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Lylat
France8575 Posts
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