EPT[Champion] Varus - Page 3
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On November 21 2013 01:08 Sakray wrote: Usually I go doran => vamp => BF/berzerk depending on my money and the lane => BT => berzerk if not finished => PD => IE => LW => GA GA might be earlier if needed, but I feel that BT/LW is strong if you score kills early and can land 90% of your max range Q. If I go botrk I do doran => cutlass => berserk => botrk, then either PD/IE or Zeal/IE/PD Gourmin already said a few things, but i want to adress why this method is inferior currently. 3-path item timing into defensive item is more common now than ever. With 3-path item timing the idea is that you with a combination of 3 highly expensive items can be the carry that your team needs for burst/sustained DPS and sieging potential. Right now the most commons 3-paths are: IE -> PD -> LW Tri-force -> BT -> LW BT -> LW -> PD/Shiv Botrk -> IE -> LW What these 3 paths have in common is the Last Whisper. With LW you can threaten the enemy front-line alot more than with a path consisting of BT -> PD -> IE or Tri-force -> BT -> IE, because this sort of item path suggests that your enemy will not buy armor and that is highly unlikely today with the popularity of randuins/frozen/zhonyas. So why is it important that it must be a 3-path and not 4 or 5? Previously, when ADC's were played, everyone had the idea that only the AD Carry would be relevant in the late-game and thus all the farm should go to the AD Carry, because a 6-item AD could 1v5 with some backup. While this is still completely true today, the game has shifted more; Mid-laners tend to roam alot more and snowball off that, junglers aren't linear (in Season 2 double gp10 into aura items was the norm and we only saw tanks like Maokai/Nauti/Amumu) and can build damage if ahead early, top lane is snowbally as always. This means that from being the 1st position in every single game, AD Carry's can now be in 2nd or 3rd position, without the overall team's damage threat decreasing. So basically today, you have to rely on a steady core, rather than always having a shot of getting 6-items because you're the most important person on the team. So when do you choose what? Tri-force isn't common on Varus and this path is mainly for Ezreal and Corki (I would say Kog'maw aswell, but it does not seem like the trend will catch on). IE+PD+LW is tank shredding. Extremely good against high resistance targets, such as Malphite and Shen Botrk+IE+LW is against high health targets that tend to build resistances, but don't have it in their kit, such as Nasus and Renekton. This path is also good against assassins, due to the botrk active. The last path that is legit for Varus, is the AD-Caster path. By going BT -> LW your Q and E will do extreme damage on EVERYONE and since you're getting it so early, nobody will have enough armor and health to sustain themselves. Regarding defensive items, since this is usually your 4th item choice (not counting boots or dolan blade) you have few options: Guardian Angel - Pretty nice, when you just know that whatever the fuck you do, you're gonna die, because your team is shit. Banshee's Veil - I'm buying this more often than i used to, with good reasoning; the spell-shield is SO good and with proper positioning it won't be off before every fight, which makes it rather legit against bursty AP's, AoE comps or engagers like Lee Sin, Nautilus, Thresh and Blitzcrank. Mercurial Scimitar - I rarely buy this, mainly because its so fucking expensive, and there's nobody who plays Supression users (Warwick, Malzahar, Urgot). It's OP if they have something that you simply need to cleanse off, but i always end up buying BV because it's cheaper and gives me health aswell. Warmog's Armor - Meh, don't buy this anymore unless you see a benefit buying pure HP. The champions where mass HP would work, you could always go with Randuins (or just have better positioning) but i would recommend buying GA instead. | ||
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Sakray
France2198 Posts
Maybe a BT => Zeal => LW would work better imo | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
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RaGe
Belgium9950 Posts
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
On November 22 2013 11:15 Gahlo wrote: BT>LW is fucking awful. It's the fastest way to make yourself useless in teamfights. You need a Zeal in there at least. If you want to do a strictly poke based build, pick Jayce. interesting, so a decent amount of pro adcs who build that way are all wrong but you are correct. How much time to auto attack do you have in early game teamfights? Caster based AD builds are common and very usefull if you use them correctly. You can't expect to play it based on autoattacks, but with the common Q max strategy you can definitely have an impact on early fights. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On November 22 2013 19:11 Tula wrote: interesting, so a decent amount of pro adcs who build that way are all wrong but you are correct. How much time to auto attack do you have in early game teamfights? Caster based AD builds are common and very usefull if you use them correctly. You can't expect to play it based on autoattacks, but with the common Q max strategy you can definitely have an impact on early fights. If we're blindly following pros opinions, Doublelift agrees with me. The main proponent of the BT>LW build is Genja, who is renowned for doing oddball to straight fucking bad S3 builds. | ||
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
On November 22 2013 19:44 Gahlo wrote: If we're blindly following pros opinions, Doublelift agrees with me. The main proponent of the BT>LW build is Genja, who is renowned for doing oddball to straight fucking bad S3 builds. You are willfully blind. The difference in build is a matter of playstyle choice. Genja built like an AD caster because he does not autoattack during teamfights (mostly because gambit as a whole does not peel for the ADC, they dive the enemy instead in 90% of their strategies). So why should he build attack speed if most of his teamfight contribution is shooting his skills and then trying to add autos once the initial madness is over (or tries to run like hell if they lost the fight). You can advocate the classic AD build (meaning aspeed, crit and damage multiplying) but if you want to play that way why are you taking a champion who by design does not operate like that? No other ADC gets a bonus for holding his autos for a second or two (Q casting). You go on playing your style, but please don't come in and say something is fucking awful if you don't want to play a champion the way he is designed. Also if you want to cite a pro to blindly follow next time, at least pick someone who plays that char. Doublelift might be a great vayne player, but I certainly don't remember a single Varus game by him in the LCS. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On November 22 2013 20:25 Tula wrote: You are willfully blind. The difference in build is a matter of playstyle choice. Genja built like an AD caster because he does not autoattack during teamfights (mostly because gambit as a whole does not peel for the ADC, they dive the enemy instead in 90% of their strategies). So why should he build attack speed if most of his teamfight contribution is shooting his skills and then trying to add autos once the initial madness is over (or tries to run like hell if they lost the fight). You can advocate the classic AD build (meaning aspeed, crit and damage multiplying) but if you want to play that way why are you taking a champion who by design does not operate like that? No other ADC gets a bonus for holding his autos for a second or two (Q casting). You go on playing your style, but please don't come in and say something is fucking awful if you don't want to play a champion the way he is designed. Also if you want to cite a pro to blindly follow next time, at least pick someone who plays that char. Doublelift might be a great vayne player, but I certainly don't remember a single Varus game by him in the LCS. If your team isn't peeling for you, the last thing you want to do is be slow as hell until your third item as you'll have 0 kite ability. Otherwise the only way to be safe if to pop off a Q and then do largely nothing in a fight. If you want to debate that it follows how he is designed, why would you put your spells on cd, then plink in some autos during cleanup? The whole point of his W it to load up stacks for blow up with your other abilities. Varus is an AD Carry, not an AD Caster. Doublelift's champion pool in S3 was often restricted by what his team was capable of playing. If he can play one of the most mechanic intensive AD carries, what makes you think he could possibly do poorly with one of the easiest? | ||
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
On November 22 2013 20:48 Gahlo wrote: If your team isn't peeling for you, the last thing you want to do is be slow as hell until your third item as you'll have 0 kite ability. Otherwise the only way to be safe if to pop off a Q and then do largely nothing in a fight. If you want to debate that it follows how he is designed, why would you put your spells on cd, then plink in some autos during cleanup? The whole point of his W it to load up stacks for blow up with your other abilities. Varus is an AD Carry, not an AD Caster. Doublelift's champion pool in S3 was often restricted by what his team was capable of playing. If he can play one of the most mechanic intensive AD carries, what makes you think he could possibly do poorly with one of the easiest? .... Nothing about Varus is "easier" it is "different". If you fail to grasp even that little I'm sorry go pray at the altar of doublelift, for myself I'll stick to people who actually play a champion. Yes in the lategame his W is a significant part of his damage, but as we all know (or at least I certainly hope we know) %health is not very effective in the early to mid game. His arguably strongest ability is his Q (since the changes, before that I'd say it was his E), coupled with his ult. That is what Varus brings to the table, a massive teamfight ult and strong spells. If you want a autoattack carry who does most of his damage by shooting people with AAs there is literally nothing he can do that another char cannot do better. I'm not sure why exactly you think he "needs" a zeal early when there is nothing specific on zeal that helps him in his Niche at that point in time. It might be nice to have it, but it is not and should not be the priority over LW and BT. Those two items are his powerspike, and they come at a point in time where he is generally most usefull. In the true late game champions with a stronger steroid obviously out scale him, so why would you go for a stacking item build to try and multiply his damage when his true strength is at a different time of the game? Obviously not every teamcomp can use that power spike, you might not want/be able to use poke/sieges at that point in time, but if you don't want that why exactly are you taking Varus instead of Tristana, Vayne, Lucian, Jinx etc. etc. etc. Some adcs have a rather clearly defined Place. Varus is the pokey (if that is a word) AD Caster. Why? Because in addition to his poke he has an ult that makes turning around a fight (or even disengaging a fight) easier. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On November 22 2013 19:44 Gahlo wrote: If we're blindly following pros opinions, Doublelift agrees with me. The main proponent of the BT>LW build is Genja, who is renowned for doing oddball to straight fucking bad S3 builds. Genja is known for building tear on Varus yeah, but just because he follow like every single decent Varus player's build, doesn'´t mean he's less shit than doublelift. Seriously, you give Doublelift too much praising when him and Genja are like the opposite of each other. It's like comparing Reginald to Froggen or Diamondprox to TheOddOne, people excel at different things. Doubelift has always and will always be praised for his Vayne mechanics and being the sole carry for CLG, but his positioning is god awful, and he relies on his team to protect him in team fights. Genja excels at being a 3rd position AD Carry, and he does it fucking well. This is why his build is so damn weird (BT+Manamune Ashe is a good example here), he's not supposed to be carrying Gambit; they usually split themselves up in 2 groups, having Genja deal with the tanks while Diamondprox/Darien just dives into their front-line with Alex. It makes sense for Gambit Gaming, because they've had this method of team fighting strategy since forever and now that Edward is back in the game, i doubt they will develop something new method, because it works really well because of Genja's positioning being so superior considering he's a 3rd position carry. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
If you really think Varus doesn't get enough damage from autos, go buy CDR boots and ignore about half his kit. You guessed it, here comes "You're better off picking Jayce for that" again. On November 22 2013 23:14 Sponkz wrote: Genja is known for building tear on Varus yeah, but just because he follow like every single decent Varus player's build, doesn'´t mean he's less shit than doublelift. Seriously, you give Doublelift too much praising when him and Genja are like the opposite of each other. It's like comparing Reginald to Froggen or Diamondprox to TheOddOne, people excel at different things. Doubelift has always and will always be praised for his Vayne mechanics and being the sole carry for CLG, but his positioning is god awful, and he relies on his team to protect him in team fights. Genja excels at being a 3rd position AD Carry, and he does it fucking well. This is why his build is so damn weird (BT+Manamune Ashe is a good example here), he's not supposed to be carrying Gambit; they usually split themselves up in 2 groups, having Genja deal with the tanks while Diamondprox/Darien just dives into their front-line with Alex. It makes sense for Gambit Gaming, because they've had this method of team fighting strategy since forever and now that Edward is back in the game, i doubt they will develop something new method, because it works really well because of Genja's positioning being so superior considering he's a 3rd position carry. Have fun making yourself 3rd position in your games when your team most likely expects you to be 1st or at least 2nd. | ||
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Ente
Germany1795 Posts
Genja who folded up like a cheap suit when he didn't have EDWard to carry him. I think you extremly uinderestimate Genja. He is insane, a lot of people underestimate him. Personally I think he is better or at least as good as for example Rekkles. You dont get to challenger with only spamming ashe for no reason. Yes he is strange, and I dont agree with some things he is doing. Going Revive in competetive matches/in s1/2 on midlane kogmaw is questionable. Going Tear on Varus/Ashe is also not optimal in my opinion. The BT/LW build on the other hand is great for a poke/kite orientated build, it has a different goal - you have great laning/poking later on. It is a different approach, and Doublelift also has some weird opinions, for example during s3 finals he said blue ezreal is better, which I think is completly wrong. People have different ideas about certain builds which is fine! | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
Who the hell expects Varus to be a 1st position carry when shit like Caitlyn/Vayne/Twitch etc. exists? Varus does not excel in late-game, he's mid-game oriented much like ezreal used to be before the popular blue-build came around. Like why would you seriously pick Varus with the mind-set that he'll do most of the damage late-game? O_o Usually when i see him picked or i pick him, we have hyper carry stuff on our solo lanes or assassins. I love the BT+LW path, as soon as you buy it, you can siege turrets like mad and threaten any tanky guy in this game. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On November 24 2013 01:24 Sponkz wrote: @Gahlo Who the hell expects Varus to be a 1st position carry when shit like Caitlyn/Vayne/Twitch etc. exists? Varus does not excel in late-game, he's mid-game oriented much like ezreal used to be before the popular blue-build came around. Like why would you seriously pick Varus with the mind-set that he'll do most of the damage late-game? O_o Usually when i see him picked or i pick him, we have hyper carry stuff on our solo lanes or assassins. I love the BT+LW path, as soon as you buy it, you can siege turrets like mad and threaten any tanky guy in this game. He's first position on your team. Rarely will you have Cait, Vayne, or Twitch on your team if Varus is your ADC. Riot will also be nerfing BT>LW shortly as they intend to make % penetration only hit bonus resists to combat the assassin craze of Season 3. | ||
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
On November 24 2013 02:59 Gahlo wrote: He's first position on your team. Rarely will you have Cait, Vayne, or Twitch on your team if Varus is your ADC. Riot will also be nerfing BT>LW shortly as they intend to make % penetration only hit bonus resists to combat the assassin craze of Season 3. And we are back to forcing a round peg into a square hole. There is no god given law that you need a first position ADC. Many games end up with the ADC being 2nd position at best while the snowballing mid/top laner plays first position. Obviously if your team needs a hypercarry you should pick a hypercarry, but frankly both in SoloQ and in organized play (be that 5v5 ranked or tournament play) you often do not need quite that for your team composition, instead you want to take advantadge of a strong midgame composition and ride that to victory. In such situations Varus shines. When he tries to build for the lategame hypercarry he does not shine quite as much. Contrary to what you think Jayce is not a better poker than Varus, he is a hybrid char who has strong poke on a single combo, but aside from that he has almost nothing. Varus brings his E for an area slow and his Ult and all it can bring. Still the point remains that Varus spikes hardest in the midgame. So if your teamcomp allows/needs that why exactly are you so against the best build to do so? (Leaving aside the problem that BT+LW spikes less hard than the Triforce Rush on Lucian/Ezreal/corki but that is another discussion altogether). | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
If you take a character which has no physical damage abilities and no ad scaling abilities then pd and LW, purchased after BT are about comparable with pd slightly ahead vs most targets. With a BT first item pd increases your auto attack only damage by between 1.8 to 1.72(depending on level assuming 3% scaling). This is actually overstated because Varus gains bonus magic damage on his autos which is not multiplied by crit damage. Against low armor targets LW does worse for auto attacks only. The breakpoint at which the extra auto attack damage will be better is around 160 armor. This seems like a lot but it's really not. It's also for auto attacks only. At 100 armor, a pretty reasonable point for most enemies to achieve in the mid game pd only has about a 20% auto attack dps advantage over LW so long as gaurs hasn't killed anything recently. This advantage is reduced significantly after a minion kill and nearly removed after a champion kill or assist This low advantage is important because abilities do damage and this damage is effected by increased scaling and and penetration. In short, as soon as an ability goes off the PD has to start catching up. How long does it take to catch up? Given varus' scaling and base damage you need to make up about 95 damage normalized to the comparison dps on an uncharged q. Given that you have a 20% dps advantage and pd LW Varus does about 200 raw dps this takes 2 seconds of auto attacking. Doesn't sound like much but now calculate how many people you hit with your q and e. Calculate how many Qs you get off in a fight or siege. Each full charge q you get off which only hits one person puts the pd build in a 3 second auto attack deficit. And the LW is cheaper. The pd/LW build is what makes Varus. It maximizes his two item teamfight (and tower push) damage. It lets him be a back line and damage the entire enemy team. It ensures that you have LW before tanks get tanky. There may be times when you need to do something else. But for varus due to the way his kit is designed those times are few and far between. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
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miicah
Australia2470 Posts
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