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On April 05 2013 18:27 Ente wrote:Show nested quote +Ashe/Soraka is very very weak early on if the opposing pair has any CC, that's definitely true Same with Sivir you will just get pushed around lvl 1 - which is one of the most important things - there are just ads which benefit more from being able to spam (it is an ok lane but why would you pick sivir for it and not other ads which are better for pushing)
Ashe's best laning levels are level 1-3 because of how much damage volley does at low levels. It's not until around 4-8 that most champs can really push ashe around and punish her when their steroids and your lack of one starts being more apparent. Volley, 600 range and soraka's heal with armor buff is more than enough to hold your ground level 1.
...also, this should really go into a different thread, but sivir is the best adc there is at pushing...I mean, she's got two low cd aoe spells.
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from my own experience and what I've heard from good players is that lvl 1-3 are the most importonant for bottom laneing. lvl 1-3 can mean a ton of additional farm and the ability to control the creepwave. i can mean forcing early jungle ganks or controlling the jungle. if you abuse the 1-3 hard enough then you can maintain alot of pressure until you hit 6 and that is when things get really interesting with ashe anyways.
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Ashe's best laning levels are level 1-3 because of how much damage volley does at low levels. It's not until around 4-8 that most champs can really push ashe around and punish her when their steroids and your lack of one starts being more apparent. Volley, 600 range and soraka's heal with armor buff is more than enough to hold your ground level 1.
no. Sorakas early lvl is HORRIBLE her heal does nothing and the armor is not much either. Ashes lvl 1 is good yes but her lvl 2/3 arent really good due to the cooldown of her volley (it is 16 seconds lvl 1 I think)
- I will just ignore the Sivir part it doesnt belong here as you said
from my own experience and what I've heard from good players is that lvl 1-3 are the most importonant for bottom laneing. lvl 1-3 can mean a ton of additional farm and the ability to control the creepwave. i can mean forcing early jungle ganks or controlling the jungle. if you abuse the 1-3 hard enough then you can maintain alot of pressure until you hit 6 and that is when things get really interesting with ashe anyways.
Exactly, but why would you give up your advantage by skilling stupid stuff for a low gain?
what I've heard from good players
Dont really want to use it as an argument and to stop the discussion, but im(most likely) by far the highest rated player here so I guess I know a bit what im talking about
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On April 05 2013 18:35 Vanka wrote:
...also, this should really go into a different thread, but sivir is the best adc there is at pushing...I mean, she's got two low cd aoe spells.
As long as you have something to push the wave during laning you can push, the most important is doing it reliably. Atfer that, you can buy Shiv, and everybody can push (Sivir can nuke down wave at a low range, but if you just want to clear the wave in ~5s or less then anyone can do with Shiv, except Ezreal and Vayne maybe).
Sivir suffers from low range (can't use E easily, gets harassed easily if she tries to auto to push) and high mana costs (compare her to Cait for example) so her wave-nuking power, and tower-killing (through ult) are good, but sustained pushing against a good pushing lane like Cait/Varus + Lulu is a lot weaker.
TL;DR: it's hard to talk about pushing outside of early laning now because Shiv just makes anyone do it. 
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Ente i never advised maxing E on ashe. I just wanted to talk about how strong ashes early game phase is.
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On April 05 2013 21:35 Ente wrote:
no. Sorakas early lvl is HORRIBLE her heal does nothing and the armor is not much either. Ashes lvl 1 is good yes but her lvl 2/3 arent really good due to the cooldown of her volley (it is 16 seconds lvl 1 I think)
If you're going to beat Ashe/Roka you're going to beat them at level 2 since level 2 tends to be Ashe's and Soraka's relative weakest point (everyone else has two damage abilities on lower CD, Soraka's heal isn't strong enough to matter)
Beating them at level 2 however requires that they did not beat you at level 1. Ideally, Roka should not be starting with heal. If she starts with silence her level 1 is a lot stronger than you would expect. So while the enemy has an advantage at level 2 remember that level 2 comes right after level 1.
Level 2 all-in lane wins in bottom lane occur because the lane is relatively even before that. One team hits level 2 first, gets a massive advantage and then snowballs. You cannot do that as easily against someone who is stronger than you at level 1 if they choose to press their level 1 advantage. Ashe is a champion that can do that due to the strength of volley.
The Cooldown on volley is 16 seconds at level 1. This means that over the course of the one to two waves it will take to get to level 2 (one wave plus one minion if enemy is blue side) Ashe should get at least two volleys. Both of these volleys should land and both of these volleys should be "free". This puts Ashe's team up 2-4 effective auto attacks at level 2.
So while Roka can be bullied at level 2 and Level 2 is Ashe's relative weakest due to other champions gaining a second damage ability you've got to make it there in a position where you can go in on them in order to take advantage of it. If you can't then you've let them get 3+ and Ashe can just volley spam you all lane long
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So Ashe plus a midlane assassin is real strong. Been playing a lot of ranked 5s and anytime we run a Zed/Akali/Diana midlane I'll pick up Ashe and just fling arrows mid. If it lands we get a free kill+assist. Have to run someone like Sona or Lulu to do it so you can harass early and have some disengage if they force a fight while arrow is down.
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Soraka's level 1 with silence isn't strong at all. Infuse has one of the lowest base damages at low level of any nuke, only 50 damage at skill level 1, silence doesn't stop autoattacks, and the cooldown is long. If she took starcall level 1, there's a real threat from her, but it polarizes the rest of Soraka's development because it delays infuse for so long.
Supports who bring more damage at level 1 than soraka w/ 1 point of infuse: All of them. God forbid it's a ranged support who has some kind of bonus autoattack damage like Lulu, Thresh, or Sona.
Ashe Soraka is terrible. If you really want a healer to pair with Ashe, go with Sona (Dat Level 1 burst damage), Nami, or Alistar. These champions have presence, - Ashe needs her support to give her something to work with, Soraka is only good if your carry can fight and shove by themselves, like the classic Soraka Graves.
On April 06 2013 02:42 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 21:35 Ente wrote:
no. Sorakas early lvl is HORRIBLE her heal does nothing and the armor is not much either. Ashes lvl 1 is good yes but her lvl 2/3 arent really good due to the cooldown of her volley (it is 16 seconds lvl 1 I think)
If you're going to beat Ashe/Roka you're going to beat them at level 2 since level 2 tends to be Ashe's and Soraka's relative weakest point (everyone else has two damage abilities on lower CD, Soraka's heal isn't strong enough to matter) Beating them at level 2 however requires that they did not beat you at level 1. Ideally, Roka should not be starting with heal. If she starts with silence her level 1 is a lot stronger than you would expect. So while the enemy has an advantage at level 2 remember that level 2 comes right after level 1. Level 2 all-in lane wins in bottom lane occur because the lane is relatively even before that. One team hits level 2 first, gets a massive advantage and then snowballs. You cannot do that as easily against someone who is stronger than you at level 1 if they choose to press their level 1 advantage. Ashe is a champion that can do that due to the strength of volley.
The Cooldown on volley is 16 seconds at level 1. This means that over the course of the one to two waves it will take to get to level 2 (one wave plus one minion if enemy is blue side) Ashe should get at least two volleys. Both of these volleys should land and both of these volleys should be "free". This puts Ashe's team up 2-4 effective auto attacks at level 2.So while Roka can be bullied at level 2 and Level 2 is Ashe's relative weakest due to other champions gaining a second damage ability you've got to make it there in a position where you can go in on them in order to take advantage of it. If you can't then you've let them get 3+ and Ashe can just volley spam you all lane long
Are we assuming the opposing lane isn't doing ANYTHING AT ALL at level 1? Once ashe drops her initial crit on the minion wave, which she HAS TO if she wants to shove harder than you, you can freely start autoattacking the wave as hard as possible, while standing behind your own minion waves so you don't get vollied. Your support can also aid in pushing minions (especially if they're ranged) and is guaranteed to be better than Soraka at doing so. Your carry has a shorter cooldown on whatever ability they started with than volley*+ Show Spoiler +Unless their name is Varus, but Hail hits all 6 minions and Volley doesn't. Also varus's 20% AS steroid from CSing is pretty good at level 1 wave pushing.
Furthermore, if Ashe is trying to guarantee hitting the enemy champions with volley, that means she isn't shoving the lane with volley on cooldown. You can't fight level 1 on ashe while also shoving the wave harder than your opponents.
The only champion who i can think of that really gets outpushed badly by Ashe early game is Vayne. Volley's CD is just too long to do what you're suggesting with it, not to mention your opponents might try to allin you after you volley and Ashe has very little to respond. God forbid it's ashe soraka, then NEITHER of you can respond to aggression.
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On April 10 2013 01:59 sylverfyre wrote:
Soraka's level 1 with silence isn't strong at all. Infuse has one of the lowest base damages at low level of any nuke, only 50 damage at skill level 1, silence doesn't stop autoattacks, and the cooldown is long. If she took starcall level 1, there's a real threat from her, but it polarizes the rest of Soraka's development because it delays infuse for so long.
Supports who bring more damage at level 1 than soraka w/ 1 point of infuse: All of them. God forbid it's a ranged support who has some kind of bonus autoattack damage like Lulu, Thresh, or Sona.
Ashe Soraka is terrible. If you really want a healer to pair with Ashe, go with Sona (Dat Level 1 burst damage), Nami, or Alistar. These champions have presence, - Ashe needs her support to give her something to work with, Soraka is only good if your carry can fight and shove by themselves, like the classic Soraka Graves.
The point on infuse is not that its more damage than other supports, but that its better than heal. Her level 1 is weak but not so weak that you cannot still utilize it.
Generally though the point of infuse at level 1 is not to use it offensively, but defensively. You silence them immediately as they come in to use abilities, delaying the ability and allowing you or your ADC to back out of range.
Are we assuming the opposing lane isn't doing ANYTHING AT ALL at level 1? Once ashe drops her initial crit on the minion wave, which she HAS TO if she wants to shove harder than you, you can freely start autoattacking the wave as hard as possible, while standing behind your own minion waves so you don't get vollied. Your support can also aid in pushing minions (especially if they're ranged) and is guaranteed to be better than Soraka at doing so. Your carry has a shorter cooldown on whatever ability they started with than volley* + Show Spoiler +Unless their name is Varus, but Hail hits all 6 minions and Volley doesn't. Also varus's 20% AS steroid from CSing is pretty good at level 1 wave pushing. Furthermore, if Ashe is trying to guarantee hitting the enemy champions with volley, that means she isn't shoving the lane with volley on cooldown. You can't fight level 1 on ashe while also shoving the wave harder than your opponents. The only champion who i can think of that really gets outpushed badly by Ashe early game is Vayne. Volley's CD is just too long to do what you're suggesting with it, not to mention your opponents might try to allin you after you volley and Ashe has very little to respond. God forbid it's ashe soraka, then NEITHER of you can respond to aggression.
Standing in your own minion wave will not stop you from getting volleyed. While volley does not go through minions, its range and spread allow it to be more or less undodgable by someone who knows how to land it.
While its true that the CD on level 1 volley is long this does not matter as much as you would think because its range and damage are so high at level 1. Unless you're able to aggress immediately after Ashe uses it the difference in its cooldown will not be significant but the damage advantage from landing the volley will make the difference in engagements. In addition, the range of volley makes enforcing this tradeoff relatively easy for Ashe.
If you and your support are focused on pushing to the point that you're using abilities on the wave then well. Whatever, you have fun with that. Free auto attacks on you and your support for me and mine while your abilities are on CD and mine aren't. Ashe's auto attack damage and attack speed are not so low that she has a hard time pushing the wave early.
Pushing the wave at level 1 does win engagements, it does not when you have to give up your engagement power to do so(especially against the ADC with the best level 1, good lord why would you give up your engagement power against Ashe). The reason that, against some lanes, you can push the wave with abilities, is that they lack the ability to punish you for that push. Ashe does not, as volley is both the easiest ability to land of all the ADC damage options and the highest damage of those options (with the exception to the first hit of a fully charged Varus Q or pointblank buckshot)
If you're Varus (who is a pretty hard counter to Ashe imo) and you put your q through the wave at level 1(without hitting me as well) this is cue for me to win lane. I am going to auto you, volley you(and possibly your support too), then auto you again, and you will have to go back and I will not.
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Standing in your own minion wave will not stop you from getting volleyed. While volley does not go through minions, its range and spread allow it to be more or less undodgable by someone who knows how to land it.
Sorry but I have no idea against which opponents you play but Ashe W is anything but undodgeable Oo
If you're Varus (who is a pretty hard counter to Ashe imo) and you put your q through the wave at level 1(without hitting me as well) this is cue for me to win lane. I am going to auto you, volley you(and possibly your support too), then auto you again, and you will have to go back and I will not.
why would you ever skill q as varus lvl 1?
Pushing the wave at level 1 does win engagements, it does not when you have to give up your engagement power to do so(especially against the ADC with the best level 1, good lord why would you give up your engagement power against Ashe).
not sure what you want to say are you advicing NOT to push the lane? Well have fun against good botlanes then..
While I kinda agree that Soraka/ashe isnt the worst thing you can have. It still is a bad lvl 1 and Soraka is possibly the worst support at lvl 1 (unless you skill q then she is okay)
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On April 11 2013 19:55 Ente wrote:
While I kinda agree that Soraka/ashe isnt the worst thing you can have. It still is a bad lvl 1 and Soraka is possibly the worst support at lvl 1 (unless you skill q then she is okay) bananas
regardless of soraka's amusingly high base AA damage which compensates for her bad lvl 1 skills, pushing hard with ashe is a horrible idea because she has a slow instead of an escape
if you want to use soraka to feed manas to push hard i cant think of a single reason to play ashe over someone like caitlyn who can push as hard as she pleases and still not run oom until she has gold for a BF sword
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Infuse i actually super annoying to play against when you're Graves and wan tot deal more than the minimal damage on Buckshot. x_x
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On April 11 2013 21:45 Zanno wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 19:55 Ente wrote:
While I kinda agree that Soraka/ashe isnt the worst thing you can have. It still is a bad lvl 1 and Soraka is possibly the worst support at lvl 1 (unless you skill q then she is okay) bananas regardless of soraka's amusingly high base AA damage which compensates for her bad lvl 1 skills, pushing hard with ashe is a horrible idea because she has a slow instead of an escape if you want to use soraka to feed manas to push hard i cant think of a single reason to play ashe over someone like caitlyn who can push as hard as she pleases and still not run oom until she has gold for a BF sword
Soraka might have like 2 more points of base damage than most ranged supports, but she isn't Thresh, Lulu, or Sona (who will CRUSH you with ranged autoattacks at level 1.)
Enough about Ashe Soraka. The guide has it listed as 'Bad' and there are enough logical reasons and a high-rated (read: Ente's) player to back it up that I don't really think it should be reversed to say 'Good'
I actually feel like Ashe Janna would be a pretty strong combo, though it isn't mentioned in the OP. It's extremely hard to "jump on" a Janna lane, tornado used properly (it's easier than it sounds) interrupts movement/gapclosing skills, and shield+volley/autos should be able to trade back pretty effectively, and are pretty solid due to Ashe's range advantage and slow. Also, 3% more MS to kite with! :D
Janna isn't the most amazing laner either, but she's still solid, and out of lane will amplify Ashe's ability to fight by ensuring that she can slow-kite melees into oblivion. And hey, free BF sword!
(Ente, opinion?)
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Ashe/Janna is a classic botlane dating back to the days of the Goddess Slut of Assists being the best champ in the game.
It's still pretty solid, but you gotta be way on top of your tornados against anything that can jump on you, cos you got no beef at all down there.
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Oh for sure. If you actually successfully do dive onto that combo, they're pretty squishy.
I think Ashe Janna would be better when the opposing support is a melee rather than a ranged support (Lulu / Sona don't NEED to gapclose to hurt you bigtime.)
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regardless of soraka's amusingly high base AA damage which compensates for her bad lvl 1 skills, pushing hard with ashe is a horrible idea because she has a slow instead of an escape
every single botlane pushes at lvl 1 (unless you have certain cheese strategies prepared) no one cares about escapes its about the lvl 2/3 timing
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Ashe soraka is just boring, with no real teamfight synergy or lane synergy and no kill potential. In fact it's one of the worst laning combinations I can think of UNLESS you aim for an even lane and use your global ults to help mid/top win. You can't even push hard because it's so damn easy to gank them from virtually any angle that it's not even worth the risk.
Soraka works best if you can frequently leave your laner to 1v2 at some point after level 6 because ideally the best way to abuse a soraka is having her run all over the map heal/infusing the mid and jungle. It's powerful because unlike trying to get a gank off, you're guaranteed to achieve something when you run into another lane, and you can full restore your ADC when you get back to lane anyways; on top of which you have presence in bot lane even while you're gone due to your ult. For that to work you need an ADC that's strong enough on her own, and that's probably going to be caitlyn, although depending on the enemy support/ad combo you can still do it with graves/kog/MF etc
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Silverfyre
why would you ever skill q as varus lvl 1?
Was considering q because of the damage. Yes e is a better start but you don't stand in the middle of creeps versus varus at level 1 so i was ignoring any abilities that would not even get close to allowing you to win a level 1 trade while damaging creeps.
not sure what you want to say are you advicing NOT to push the lane? Well have fun against good botlanes then..
There is a difference between pushing, and pushing with your abilities. If, at level 1, you push with your abilities this is OK against someone who wants to fight you at level 2, their relative inability to punish you at level 1 means your loss for using your ability to shove the wave is not as significant. But its not OK against someone who wants to fight at level 1.
The reason that you push lanes is because hitting 2 earlier and extra minions mean extra engagement power at that point. If you push with abilities at a position where the enemy can fight you have traded engagement power now for engagement power later at a position where the enemy wants to engage you. Unless you flat out win every fight a smart enemy will punish you for this.
I mean imagine for a second that you hit two at the same time as the enemy lane and then the enemy lane blows their abilities on the wave and does not hit you. To me, that says "engage now and win the lane". This is what enemies blowing their abilities on the wave at level 1 says to Ashe. Understanding that Ashe's relative timing is at level 1 rather than level 2 is important to understanding the matchup.
Juicyfruit
Ashe soraka is just boring, with no real teamfight synergy or lane synergy and no kill potential. In fact it's one of the worst laning combinations I can think of UNLESS you aim for an even lane and use your global ults to help mid/top win. You can't even push hard because it's so damn easy to gank them from virtually any angle that it's not even worth the risk.
You're discounting the ability of Ashe with infinite mana to volley spam both the enemy lane and gank paths into submission. Without the huge mana reserves that Soraka provides Ashe needs to use volley sparingly in order to conserve mana for defensive volleys and ECA's. Without that she can freely use her volley without much worry about having issues for defensive use.
Its also not easy to gank a pushing bottom lane so long as they've warded(unless your ganker doesn't really care about wards). And if you haven't warded don't push (or you go and ward so you can push)
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If you're pushing up to their tower the jungler's just going to plow down bot lane and kill you. J4, Shaco, Nocturne, Vi, etc simply won't care about the two wards you have plopped down (that's assuming they aren't just going to counterpink the tri and deny you pushing power completely and it gets worse if the support has a hard-cc and the ADC has cleanse. Then you have the problem of having no choice BUT to push because what else are you going to do with that lane combo?
Plus you have to survive the lane until you pick up momentum which is going to be an agonizing 5 levels if the other side knows how to play. It might be alright if you're on the blue side but I wouldn't even attempt it on the purple side.
I don't mean this lane combo is unplayable and there are some instances where this would actually work out well, like if your team just groups up during mid-game and abuse volley + infinite mana to attrition down towers. It doesn't change the fact that it's a vulnerable lane with tons of exploitable weaknesses.
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I mean imagine for a second that you hit two at the same time as the enemy lane and then the enemy lane blows their abilities on the wave and does not hit you. To me, that says "engage now and win the lane". This is what enemies blowing their abilities on the wave at level 1 says to Ashe. Understanding that Ashe's relative timing is at level 1 rather than level 2 is important to understanding the matchup.
I think I have a decent understanding about botlane... and no ashe cant fight lvl 1 that well..
Yes e is a better start but you don't stand in the middle of creeps versus varus at level 1 so i was ignoring any abilities that would not even get close to allowing you to win a level 1 trade while damaging creeps.
wait what you tell me that q is better for pushing while damaging? Sorry but you sir have no idea about how Varus works/never played against a good Varus. There is NO discussion about skilling E first and its by far his best ability for lvl 1/lvl 1 fighting
If you're pushing up to their tower the jungler's just going to plow down bot lane and kill you. J4, Shaco, Nocturne, Vi, etc simply won't care about the two wards you have plopped down (that's assuming they aren't just going to counterpink the tri and deny you pushing power completely and it gets worse if the support has a hard-cc and the ADC has cleanse. Not to mention you have to somehow survive until your lane combo picks up momentum which is level 5. It might be alright if you're on the blue side but I wouldn't even attempt it on the purple side.
You realize we are talking about lvl 1/2? You know where the enemy jungler start - you will have until at least minute 3 time before the gank (we ignore Shaco, hes a special case) A Nocturne obviously cant gank at all.
Blueside doesnt ward Tri (midlane ward and drake ward). Botlane mementum at lvl 5? Sorry but no just no Botlane is mostly about lvl 1/2 (thats why the golems are such a big deal)
I hate pulling it out but do you realize that I am since about 4 months rank 1 AD in Europe. This discussion is just so long and pointless, that is the only reason I pull my "I know what I am talking about" card, im sorry.
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EPT
