EPTSo yes as a botlane you perma push and you ward gank spots - especially as Ashe when you have really good harrass
[Champion] Ashe - Page 2
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Ente
Germany1795 Posts
So yes as a botlane you perma push and you ward gank spots - especially as Ashe when you have really good harrass | ||
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
IE Shiv does more damage off of 2 items but less sustained DPS when you're looking at really late game stuff, because that proc really doesn't come up that often when you're constantly attacking, even if you're kiting. It's a neat way to add some aoe/burst to your kit, though. It's a pretty nice way to crush a game if you get a lead though, if you can get the Shiv early enough that the proc damage is meaningful. If you're still sitting on Shiv in the super late game though, you should at least consider selling it for PD. It'd be nice if you explain exactly the mechanics of Volley - it's actually 7 (it's 7, right?) individual skillshot arrows fired in a cone, each shot stops upon hitting the first target and a target cannot be hit by more than one arrow. Sometimes you can slip the skillshot past a minion because only one arrow can be stopped by a single minion, allowing you to hit someone behind the minion that you wouldn't be able to hit with other skillshots that are stopped by minions like Mystic Shot. I don't feel safe going Doran -> BF sword like that unless A) I'm very far ahead early and B) I also am running lifesteal quints. Otherwise I'd rather have either a Vamp Scepter or maybe a second Doran's blade, or berserker greaves as my early buys. 800G early back, IMO, is going to be a vamp scepter more often than a pickaxe. Having berserker greaves before your opponent means that if you ever get them in a bad situation, you just walk them down the lane with frost shot and they can't respond at all. If you already have boots1, you should really consider getting boots2, it's such an efficient upgrade - 20% AS for 550 gold. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On April 04 2013 20:10 TigerKarl wrote: So wrong about Soraka support. But then again, hardly anybody is playing the strongest support champion properly. Well they'd gave a hard time doing so when you just belittle them instead of exposing the "proper" way to play her. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
Avarice plus max E lets Ashe get like... 30% more gold from farming than an enemy AD. You could aim for a midgame core of, say, IE, boots2, vamp and avarice. Probably want a support that gets a Crucible though. | ||
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Ente
Germany1795 Posts
Avarice plus max E lets Ashe get like... 30% more gold from farming than an enemy AD While that is correct you should rephrase it: you get 1 gold per skillpoint/lasthit more you get 2 gold with avarice blade more (which is not relevant - the enemy ad can get it aswell, its just NOT good to rush most of the time) You could aim for a midgame core of, say, IE, boots2, vamp and avarice. And why would you not just do the same without avarice blade even faster, you just have usefull spells? | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On April 05 2013 06:49 ticklishmusic wrote: Avarice plus max E lets Ashe get like... 30% more gold from farming than an enemy AD. You could aim for a midgame core of, say, IE, boots2, vamp and avarice. Probably want a support that gets a Crucible though. That's really not the right way of thinking about it. 1) you get only so many CS between levels 2 and 18. Assuming you would get the SAME NUMBER OF CS without Emax, you're looking at 4*[cs-between 9 and 14] + approx 2* [cs from 4-8 and 15-17] Even if you're CSing perfectly, that isnt as much gold gain as it looks like. Don't compare yourself to the other ADC. Also, don't conflate Avarice blade and maxing hawkshot, as those are two seperate decisions. This is assuming you aren't: Missing out on kills due to not leveling Volley or Frost Shot. (That low level volley CD...) Dying because you are not leveling volley or Frost Shot. Missing CS due to not maxing Volley. And so on. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On April 05 2013 06:52 Ente wrote: soraka/sivir is pretty bad - you want to go agressive with sivir - you dont with soraka. While that is correct you should rephrase it: you get 1 gold per skillpoint/lasthit more you get 2 gold with avarice blade more (which is not relevant - the enemy ad can get it aswell, its just NOT good to rush most of the time) And why would you not just do the same without avarice blade even faster, you just have usefull spells? Soraka Sivir is a ridiculous bully lane. Sivir just pushes and bullies insanely hard without mana issues. With good coordination, she can can get out of most dangerous situations-- Raka can silence to stall a CC or CC combo, and her spell shield can take care of the rest. It's extremely niche in ranked and vulnerable to counterpicking, but it is definitely workable. I don't really understand why points in other skills would be better. Maybe in some lane like Nunu + Ashe you could bully by playing to Ashe's strength as a slow-bot, but otherwise I think her strength would be gold generation and crit, which Avarice fits into very well. I don't see why points in W would be good at all. The cdr is nice, but its a pretty mana hungry spell. If you're depending on it to CS, then you're pretty bad. Maybe you can take a big advantage with Ashe early on and basically just win there, but I think aiming for a midgame power spike is safer. Also, I'm just making the assumption that both AD's are relatively evenly matched and competent CS-ers. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
You also forgo any pressure.poke ability if you don't max W, and because Ashe isn't as good a laner as Draven or ever-so-brainless-MF doesn't mean she sucks at it like most people believe. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
Running Flash + Ghost is hugely detrimental to her laning power (which is bad enough as it is), in my opinion. [...] Maxing E first when fed isn't too bad. Flash+Ghost is not bad in laning phase. It seems like it ought to be weaker but Ghost gives you a lot more lane power than most people will expect due to its insane chase/kite. It is only weaker if you're facing a hard CC that can't be avoided by other means or if you absolutely need cleanse for the team fight phase. Maxing E first is always bad. Cash Ashe (I.E. Rush Avarice) still max's e second. With that said, Nunu is good with Ashe, with 2 slows you can lane safe and BB is just awesome. Ashe/Sona is kind of bad I think, both too squishy and no escape pre 6 which if the enemy smart enough they will gain quite an advantage. Ashe/Sona like most lanes depends entirely on the enemy support. If you're facing someone who doesn't have a hard engage you're pretty golden. Ashe has some of the best ability poke of any ADC with high range and low mana cost on volley. Sona has some of the highest damage poke in the game with her q and the bonus damage makes Ashe's volley even stronger while the sustain means that anything that isn't a full engage will be a positive trade for Ashe/Sona. In addition to this they probably have the best single target level 1 in the game. At level 1 powerchord + q and volley (not even including ashe's auto crit) will pretty much remove an enemy ADC from the lane. This lets Sona/Ashe bully almost any lane at level 1 because most hard engage supports need a combo to be very strong(I.E. level 2 engage). Ashe/Sona is vulnerable to getting behind and vulnerable to burst, but if you leverage your early poke/fight advantage you can get to a point in most lanes where it will be difficult for the enemy to fight back... and then you hit 6. | ||
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Ente
Germany1795 Posts
Also, I'm just making the assumption that both AD's are relatively evenly matched and competent CS-ers. exactly both ads are evenly matched so if the enemy knows that you are doing the e max they can easily zone you.. Soraka Sivir is a ridiculous bully lane. Sivir just pushes and bullies insanely hard without mana issues. With good coordination, she can can get out of most dangerous situations-- Raka can silence to stall a CC or CC combo, and her spell shield can take care of the rest. It's extremely niche in ranked and vulnerable to counterpicking, but it is definitely workable. Niche in ranked? You can play anything in ranked... I played AD teemo - with around 50% winrate do I now think its viable no I dont (not against low elo if you assume that is) There is just no reason to go sivir soraka and not sivir/taric sivir/zyra or cait/soraka ashe/soraka - sivir doesnt synergize better with soraka then the other ads Maxing E first is always bad. Cash Ashe (I.E. Rush Avarice) still max's e second. And I still argue that points in q are better anyway (besides the 1 e at lvl 8 which you can do in my opinion) the reason for that: How much cs will you have at the next time you will skill (lvl 10) will probably be 150-200 (assume heavy farm lane) How many cs will you have at the end of the game most likely around 300. So your next 3 points will at not give you that much gold (maximum 300 - hell even if we assume 200 cs at that time its only 600 gold) At that point in the game 1 kill is worth way more then those up to 600 gold - you sometimes either die or give up a kill because you dont have the additional q slow | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
Every support can go well with Ashe depending on lane matchups. The only support I'd never play Ashe with is Blitzcrank, because her all-in damage is smaller than every other AD besides Cait (whom I don't pick with Blitz either). Every other support offers some form of utility that can help you win lane against another AD. Leona's not great with her, but she does offer tremendous peel, giving Ashe more safety AGAINST a Blitzcrank. I'm of the opinion that Ashe is quite slept on, and higher base AS is underappreciated. Ashe's ability to pew-pew tanky targets is very strong even without an offensive steroid. I think the line of thought that an AD without a steroid just isn't as good is really stupid. That's what big, shiny items like IE are for. If you hit 6 items on Ashe, you're gonna melt everyone, just like every other AD does at 6 items. I don't think Ashe does it any worse than anyone else, and she certainly does some things better. When I play Ashe I can already feel myself becoming a monster with just IE and Zeal, and the spike from finishing PD is very nice too. And Volley is one of the BEST teamfight positioning skills around, mass slowing every target lets you move around teamfights smoothly. I think it's important to note that when you play Ashe, you are not looking to dunk the enemy team's carries like you would with Vayne, or Trist. You hang out on the fringes, DPS targets that overstep, and help peel for your AP (or whoever is getting smashed). Also, Arrow is magnificent, and is IMO best used when you already have a strong initiation on your team, so you can use it to a) follow-up the existing engage for longer lock-down, or b) use it to prevent disengages when your primary initiation starts a favorable teamfight. Otherwise it's just a very safe initiation that you can fire ahead of your team, letting them get into position with no risk on your own part. | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
except Sivir is kinda butt booty right now, so you don't pick it at all  | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
Her scaling +4% AS / level is EXTREMELY high (even most carries only get ~3%/level), but AS/level works like all other AS sources - you take the total AS bonus you have and apply it to your BASE AS. Ashe's level 18 AS is in fact tied for highest in the game, but Ashe with a PD (+50% AS) will have less AS at level 18 than Kennen with a PD. The main reason I don't see much advantage out of Soraka Ashe is that during Ashe's early levels, her Volley cooldown is way too long to free-mana-spam it to take advantage of the manaless harass Soraka provides (unlike a Soraka + Graves/Sivir where you spam your harass-push skill and you're super safe because they're pinned to tower.) If you can get to like... level 7 or so, you can shove hard, but by that point you COULD have already lost the lane to cc combos (especially level 6 cc combos... wish is great and all, but it isn't Solar Flare/Box/Crescendo) | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
Ashe/Soraka is very very weak early on if the opposing pair has any CC, that's definitely true | ||
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
On April 05 2013 13:48 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: well nobody plays Kennen anymore, and certainly not AD Kennen Ashe/Soraka is very very weak early on if the opposing pair has any CC, that's definitely true Thats an interesting statement, because i believe both those champions are highly undervaluated, especially early on. When soraka was more popular she was a pure healbot. Poeple played passive and just straight up outsustained their oppoenents and forced risky plays. Here are some interesting thoughts about soraka: there is probably no other support who deals as much damage as her and her silence is one of the strongest disables in the game. The damage part is obvious. We've seen good soraka players maxing Q and deal ridiculous amounts of damage during a trade or just for short pokes. Her silence is what makes her great though because its instant and long. A soraka who has good ward coverage in lane can prevent any kind of poke or attack from the other support. she can prevent flashes and other utility being used. That is huge. As an initiator like taric or leona you only have that small window where an engagement would be worthwhile and soraka makes those opportunities very rage. she can also prevent q harass from sona and punish her with silence + q + auto. her global presence is also amazing and she can protect well from all-ins. i don't think she is lackluster in any way it's just that not many have the balls to play her and alot of people miss the easy to play healbot. then what I read alot about ashe is that she doesn't deal alot of damage and that she has a weak early game. well both statements are straight up wrong. ashes steroids are actually pretty damn good. she has alot of matchups she wins or does well early (cait, ez, kog...). there are chamions who break her such as taric and graves (mb also corki) though and especially the combination of both. but she is far from a bad early gamer. I manage to apply tons of pressure with her early on in most of my games with her and I'am a bad ad carry. | ||
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Blyf
Denmark408 Posts
On April 04 2013 22:57 Ente wrote: well pushing the lane is not really an innovative playstyle the rest is just not good. So yes as a botlane you perma push and you ward gank spots - especially as Ashe when you have really good harrass Maybe not, but harassing them at blue without going for a full-on invade is. That crit + volley + auto at blue is so simple yet game changing. What do you suggest that a guide should contain in order to be useful? | ||
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Vanka
China1336 Posts
If you go 21/9/0 for the health or 14/16/0 you lose the improved flash, which knocks it down 15 seconds. If you get the 10% cd in mastermind, you'll lose the mana regen you normally have from points in the ultility tree. As someone who normally runs 21/9/0, not having the mana is very noticiable a lot of the time--ECA always takes a big chunk of your mana pool early on, which limits your volley potential. Lastly, do you go for furor enchantment boots or distortion? If you're running ghost, distortion should be obvious. But if you're running barrier, is it worth it? If you get all three reductions, you reduce the cds from 300 seconds to 188 seconds. That means that flash, ashe's most important summoner, comes up a bit more than 3 minutes instead of every 5 minutes. That is a significantly shorter time between teamfights if you're a cautious team who only fights when ashe's flash is up. It also gives you a larger window mid-late game when to engage on the enemy where you can catch out the flashless enemy ad when you do have flash. Thoughts? | ||
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Ente
Germany1795 Posts
Ashe/Soraka is very very weak early on if the opposing pair has any CC, that's definitely true Same with Sivir you will just get pushed around lvl 1 - which is one of the most important things - there are just ads which benefit more from being able to spam (it is an ok lane but why would you pick sivir for it and not other ads which are better for pushing) well nobody plays Kennen anymore, and certainly not AD Kennen In europe: Jimbownz, Motroco, and I have seen nono all play AD kennen(I think I somehow miss one, maybe I remember incorrectly though) | ||
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