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On January 04 2013 04:59 Dark_Chill wrote:
I think people were talking about making E have her next auto-attack do the E spell (sorry I don't know how to explain that better), which would make it much easier to cast during the late game. That alone seems fine.
I drooled thinking about the possibility that her E works also as an auto reset
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On January 16 2013 13:36 obesechicken13 wrote:
What do you build against an AD that rushes brutalizer? Cait just did it to me and her spells and autos really hurt. (still won lane cuz blitz op) I don't want Doran's shield because it only gives 5 armor now. The passive is nice but Doran's blade's is nice too.
I want something that gives armor. Because it's probable Cait has arpen reds and quints. 35 armor pen is too much early on. But I don't want to have to sell the item back later. Do I suck it up and just get a chain mail and carry it with me the rest of the game? Maybe turn it into a GA, Ohmwrecker, Ancient Golem, Atmas? Because I don't want to have no armor items but I also don't want to have to sell the item back. Yeah I shoulda gotten chain vest or a ninja tabi.
As Tristana? Ignore the Brutalizer and build offensively as usual.
Assuming relative level/gold parity, this shouldn't be a problem at all, since you can trade much harder with your early game burst. By the time Cait finishes Brutalizer, you'll have Vamp Scepter, which will allow you to both trade basic attacks and easily win all-ins. That's not even taking into account the face that you can dodge/mitigate her Q, or that you should actually be ahead after you successfully all-in at 2 and 6.
Armor pen counters armor, so I have no idea why you would want to play into it by building armor.
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On January 22 2013 16:27 sunprince wrote:
Armor pen counters armor, so I have no idea why you would want to play into it by building armor.
No it doesn't. Flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs. low armor targets.
It's funny cause you're still right that he should just build normally, but your conclusion is just flat out wrong.
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On January 22 2013 16:58 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 16:27 sunprince wrote:
Armor pen counters armor, so I have no idea why you would want to play into it by building armor. No it doesn't. Flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs. low armor targets. It's funny cause you're still right that he should just build normally, but your conclusion is just flat out wrong.
While flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs low armor targets, it's also least effective if the opponent is not relying on armor in their strategy, such as if their plan is simply to kill you faster or by outsustaining you via lifesteal.
Not to mention that Brutalizer builds into BC, which makes armor an even worse idea due to the percentage based armor shred.
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On January 23 2013 09:03 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 16:58 Mogwai wrote:On January 22 2013 16:27 sunprince wrote:
Armor pen counters armor, so I have no idea why you would want to play into it by building armor. No it doesn't. Flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs. low armor targets. It's funny cause you're still right that he should just build normally, but your conclusion is just flat out wrong. While flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs low armor targets, it's also least effective if the opponent is not relying on armor in their strategy, such as if their plan is simply to kill you faster or by outsustaining you via lifesteal.
that's just not how effectiveness works and I really have no idea how to explain that to you if that's your line of thinking. plain and simple, if your goal is to do damage and your opponent has low armor, flat armor penetration outperforms damage.
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It's cool. I think I'd just build ninja tabis. That Cait hurt 
I wish there were an easy way to tell if your opponent started armor pen runes instead of AD runes or AS runes. AD runes are probably similar to arpen runes for damage but arpen seems easier to counter.
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On January 23 2013 11:04 obesechicken13 wrote:It's cool. I think I'd just build ninja tabis. That Cait hurt I wish there were an easy way to tell if your opponent started armor pen runes instead of AD runes or AS runes. AD runes are probably similar to arpen runes for damage but arpen seems easier to counter.
You can just click on them at lvl1 and see what runes/masteries they took.
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On January 23 2013 11:16 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 11:04 obesechicken13 wrote:It's cool. I think I'd just build ninja tabis. That Cait hurt I wish there were an easy way to tell if your opponent started armor pen runes instead of AD runes or AS runes. AD runes are probably similar to arpen runes for damage but arpen seems easier to counter. You can just click on them at lvl1 and see what runes/masteries they took.
It doesn't show their runes. You can guess that most AD's start with 45-55 dmg so since AD reds give 8 dmg you can figure out if your opponent went AD reds. You can guess if they went Aspd since most carries start with +-.67 aspd and the ~12%? is more than enough to give that away, but you can't tell if someone has arpen runes or crit and health regen runes. Either way it's more trouble than it should be.
Before you ask who runs crit red runes I do :/
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?
Look, you click on the hero, hover your mouse over their stats. It shows their base stat and their additional stats from runes/masteries/items separately. Just by looking at this you can EASILY figure out most of their runes/masteries setup on AD carries because their rune setups are very standardized. Figuring out whether or not they took arpen or ad marks is like the easiest thing to do because you can figure it out by just hovering your mouse over their AD. Is it +18/19? Then you can know for a fact that they took flat AD marks, quints, and mastery. Is it +10? Then you know for a fact that they took AD quints and the flat AD mastery but didn't take AD marks. There are very few options left, and 99% of the time it's going to be arpen. It is +0 or +3? Then it's most likely that they took arpen marks and quints (Aphromoo's Draven specs in S2, for example). Like sure, there can be a few ambiguities. Like they COULD have taken crit runes instead of arpen if they're not taking AD, but it's rare so you can safely assume that they took arpen. If they don't have mr or aren't fully speccing mr on their glyphs, it could be mregen or cdr or crit, etc. Usually you can't really be certain about the exact way they spread their masteries and runes around, but you can get a large chunk of it down just by hovering your mouse over their stats for like 2 seconds.
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On January 23 2013 09:35 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 09:03 sunprince wrote:On January 22 2013 16:58 Mogwai wrote:On January 22 2013 16:27 sunprince wrote:
Armor pen counters armor, so I have no idea why you would want to play into it by building armor. No it doesn't. Flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs. low armor targets. It's funny cause you're still right that he should just build normally, but your conclusion is just flat out wrong. While flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs low armor targets, it's also least effective if the opponent is not relying on armor in their strategy, such as if their plan is simply to kill you faster or by outsustaining you via lifesteal. that's just not how effectiveness works and I really have no idea how to explain that to you if that's your line of thinking. plain and simple, if your goal is to do damage and your opponent has low armor, flat armor penetration outperforms damage.
Perhaps this will make it more clear:
Use a simulator like Ask Mr. Robot. Test out different builds against a build that has flat penetration. Observe how building armor is not a cost-effective means to counter an armor pen build.
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On January 23 2013 14:14 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 09:35 Mogwai wrote:On January 23 2013 09:03 sunprince wrote:On January 22 2013 16:58 Mogwai wrote:On January 22 2013 16:27 sunprince wrote:
Armor pen counters armor, so I have no idea why you would want to play into it by building armor. No it doesn't. Flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs. low armor targets. It's funny cause you're still right that he should just build normally, but your conclusion is just flat out wrong. While flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs low armor targets, it's also least effective if the opponent is not relying on armor in their strategy, such as if their plan is simply to kill you faster or by outsustaining you via lifesteal. that's just not how effectiveness works and I really have no idea how to explain that to you if that's your line of thinking. plain and simple, if your goal is to do damage and your opponent has low armor, flat armor penetration outperforms damage. Perhaps this will make it more clear: Use a simulator like Ask Mr. Robot. Test out different builds against a build that has flat penetration. Observe how building armor is not a cost-effective means to counter an armor pen build.
That's a graph...
Not sure what you're trying to say about it as it's a horrible way to convey a point. It's like giving a guy a book and saying "this proves I'm right" without specifying a page to look at.
You agreed that armor pen is better vs low armor targets. Brutalizer is 10 armor pen. A single cloth armor is 15.
Tristana at level 9 has 15(base)+3(gain_per_level)*9(level)+12(runes)=54 armor
I think armor pen values have been nerfed on runes. There's 19 from runes. And brutalizer has 10 armor pen. 29 armor pen.
54-29=25 armor
So Caitlyn with brutalizer will do approximately (100+54)/(100+25)=23% more damage to you if you have no armor due to the penetration.
If you have a ninja tabi then caitlyn deals approximately (100+25)/(100+25+25(tabi)) 83% of the physical damage she would to you if you had serks. Doesn't include ninja tabi passive or Cait's magic damage.
You have the choice between ninja tabi and berserker's greaves.
At level 9 the greaves give you +20% atk spd. Tristana's natural attack speed is .658*(1+.03*9)=.84
Her attack speed with greaves is .658*(1+.03*9+.2)=.97
You deal .97/.84=15% more auto damage to Cait from that Serks.
Your Q reduces that amount and if you have spells (which stana does) that attack speed is worth less.
Tabi costs 100 gold more but there is no way that ninja tabi will do worse than a damage item against an armor penetration stacker. It's definitely closer than I thought though. Wow Riot's really screwing over tanks...
That attack speed is going to become more desireable in most late game fights with the exception of ones where the two AD's duel as well.
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So, is the little blue yordle experiencing a renaissance right now? Saw her being played by some Asian teams today (TPA, Xenics) and she did quite well.
What I actually don't like about her was the midgame where you needed IE + PD to deal serious damage instead of only a BT that other ADs require to have some impact (especially Graves, that guy only needs a fully stacked BD to melt people during midgame).
I saw Blade of the ruind King + Statikk Shiv builds on her, maybe that's how to get rid of that problem?
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I don't really find having to go IE first a real disadvantage (if it isn't a professional game, anyways). It's not all that different from Caitlyn in my mind- yes you can go Bloodthirster as Cait, but you become much more oppressive by getting the IE first. Tris just scales so well off of crit it' is ridiculous- she's pretty much the only ADC that I situationally go two phantom dancers over a defensive item, depending on team comps.
I have a hard time imagining the current BotRK and Statikk Shiv being that great on her. Mid-game might be marginally better, but probably at the cost of a monster late game. Though the active could make her even more slippery against certain team comps. :>
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DoranBlade => Bilgewater on her is really good so the buildup into BoTRK is pretty decent o her. Shiv is just a nice item in general for ADC's. I rarely find room to build PD's any more let alone two of them in a single game. And I used to build racecar Ashe S2 with five PD's and an IE. (assuming I'm massively farmed out and can't lose the game of course)
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I don't really think Shiv and BOTRK combine well, tbh.
I built BOTRK/PD and I just didn't feel like I did significant damage, but I was behind that game. Even when I had 3 items, I couldnt kill shit though. Seems like Tristana is just too reliant on not falling behind :/
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So after reading this post I've tried a game (ranked ofc) with Trist, I had a Zyra support and we got shat on by a Kog/Nami comp (they were VERY good tho, Kog was last hitting extremely well while harassing us all the time, he had 2x my cs).
But after some teamfights I got back in the game (picked up a nice quadra after being down 1-4 sth like that). I feel like grabbing a Youmuu after IE helps Trist midgame alot, as combined with your Q and attack speed quints you have as much attack speed than a adc with botrk and a attack speed item. It gives damage, crit chances, and arpen which in my opinion make up for her weak midgame.
I think going PD after IE+Youmuu is good if you're ahead because you may lack some damages (the high crit %age you have with these 3 items, around 70% iirc, can make up for it if you're lucky enough) that would be useful if you're behind like I was (but I'm stubborn and it paid off as I got a quadra kill to get back in the game).
Any thought on this ?
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On July 08 2014 18:45 Sakray wrote:So after reading this post I've tried a game (ranked ofc) with Trist, I had a Zyra support and we got shat on by a Kog/Nami comp (they were VERY good tho, Kog was last hitting extremely well while harassing us all the time, he had 2x my cs). But after some teamfights I got back in the game (picked up a nice quadra after being down 1-4 sth like that). I feel like grabbing a Youmuu after IE helps Trist midgame alot, as combined with your Q and attack speed quints you have as much attack speed than a adc with botrk and a attack speed item. It gives damage, crit chances, and arpen which in my opinion make up for her weak midgame. I think going PD after IE+Youmuu is good if you're ahead because you may lack some damages (the high crit %age you have with these 3 items, around 70% iirc, can make up for it if you're lucky enough) that would be useful if you're behind like I was (but I'm stubborn and it paid off as I got a quadra kill to get back in the game). Any thought on this ?
I think 6s is too short to rely on as an ADC, and you don't want to have to buy ghostblade because it isn't as much dps towards moderately tanky targets even though it gives many of the correct stats.
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On July 08 2014 21:00 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 18:45 Sakray wrote:So after reading this post I've tried a game (ranked ofc) with Trist, I had a Zyra support and we got shat on by a Kog/Nami comp (they were VERY good tho, Kog was last hitting extremely well while harassing us all the time, he had 2x my cs). But after some teamfights I got back in the game (picked up a nice quadra after being down 1-4 sth like that). I feel like grabbing a Youmuu after IE helps Trist midgame alot, as combined with your Q and attack speed quints you have as much attack speed than a adc with botrk and a attack speed item. It gives damage, crit chances, and arpen which in my opinion make up for her weak midgame. I think going PD after IE+Youmuu is good if you're ahead because you may lack some damages (the high crit %age you have with these 3 items, around 70% iirc, can make up for it if you're lucky enough) that would be useful if you're behind like I was (but I'm stubborn and it paid off as I got a quadra kill to get back in the game). Any thought on this ? I think 6s is too short to rely on as an ADC, and you don't want to have to buy ghostblade because it isn't as much dps towards moderately tanky targets even though it gives many of the correct stats.
From my experience in Gold I soloQ, most of the time midgame is little skirmishies and not that many big 5v5 teamfights, so using Youmuu's active to pick one target or chunk it down really fast might give the advantage in a fight, don't you think ?
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On July 08 2014 21:17 Sakray wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 21:00 obesechicken13 wrote:On July 08 2014 18:45 Sakray wrote:So after reading this post I've tried a game (ranked ofc) with Trist, I had a Zyra support and we got shat on by a Kog/Nami comp (they were VERY good tho, Kog was last hitting extremely well while harassing us all the time, he had 2x my cs). But after some teamfights I got back in the game (picked up a nice quadra after being down 1-4 sth like that). I feel like grabbing a Youmuu after IE helps Trist midgame alot, as combined with your Q and attack speed quints you have as much attack speed than a adc with botrk and a attack speed item. It gives damage, crit chances, and arpen which in my opinion make up for her weak midgame. I think going PD after IE+Youmuu is good if you're ahead because you may lack some damages (the high crit %age you have with these 3 items, around 70% iirc, can make up for it if you're lucky enough) that would be useful if you're behind like I was (but I'm stubborn and it paid off as I got a quadra kill to get back in the game). Any thought on this ? I think 6s is too short to rely on as an ADC, and you don't want to have to buy ghostblade because it isn't as much dps towards moderately tanky targets even though it gives many of the correct stats. From my experience in Gold I soloQ, most of the time midgame is little skirmishies and not that many big 5v5 teamfights, so using Youmuu's active to pick one target or chunk it down really fast might give the advantage in a fight, don't you think ?
Maybe most of the time, but those times it's down you'll feel bad that you didn't build something else.
Edit: Reading one of my comments from the past, I didn't mention that greaves only increases Trist's autoattack damage, not spell damage, but tabis would reduce both the opponent Cait's autoattack and spell damage.
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On July 08 2014 21:24 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 21:17 Sakray wrote:On July 08 2014 21:00 obesechicken13 wrote:On July 08 2014 18:45 Sakray wrote:So after reading this post I've tried a game (ranked ofc) with Trist, I had a Zyra support and we got shat on by a Kog/Nami comp (they were VERY good tho, Kog was last hitting extremely well while harassing us all the time, he had 2x my cs). But after some teamfights I got back in the game (picked up a nice quadra after being down 1-4 sth like that). I feel like grabbing a Youmuu after IE helps Trist midgame alot, as combined with your Q and attack speed quints you have as much attack speed than a adc with botrk and a attack speed item. It gives damage, crit chances, and arpen which in my opinion make up for her weak midgame. I think going PD after IE+Youmuu is good if you're ahead because you may lack some damages (the high crit %age you have with these 3 items, around 70% iirc, can make up for it if you're lucky enough) that would be useful if you're behind like I was (but I'm stubborn and it paid off as I got a quadra kill to get back in the game). Any thought on this ? I think 6s is too short to rely on as an ADC, and you don't want to have to buy ghostblade because it isn't as much dps towards moderately tanky targets even though it gives many of the correct stats. From my experience in Gold I soloQ, most of the time midgame is little skirmishies and not that many big 5v5 teamfights, so using Youmuu's active to pick one target or chunk it down really fast might give the advantage in a fight, don't you think ? Maybe most of the time, but those times it's down you'll feel bad that you didn't build something else. Edit: Reading one of my comments from the past, I didn't mention that greaves only increases Trist's autoattack damage, not spell damage, but tabis would reduce both the opponent Cait's autoattack and spell damage.
Well it's only 45s cooldown, if chunk someone down or even kill him 1v1/2v1, there won't be any teamfight soon.
Also about your edit I don't understand what you're talking about xd
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EPT
