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Couldn't find a thread about trist, so I decided to start the discussion on the optimal way to play her.
Tristana is a free champion that you can get by liking LOL on facebook. You also get a riot girl tristana skin.
(this is my build b/4 hecarim patch)
Masteries: 21/9/0
-Take vamprisim rather than havoc, otherwise just standard 21 in ad.
For 9 def get the bonus health.
I like getting 9 in defence because it allows you to go baws deep. And going baws deep make you win lane. This is my playstyle and it's how I enjoy the game. Of course, there are other non-manly ways to play tristana that also works, especially because she is an incredible late game AD carry.
Summoners: Heal/ignite
The reason for taking heal and ignite is because it allows tristana to start with doran's blade. If opponents try to harass trist, she can just jump on them. With a doran blade+ heal and ignite, trist can come out on top. The reason why I think tristana can get away with a doran's blade is because enemy will be scared to harass you. If they do come in range for a harass, Tristana can just go all-in + ignite, and with support follow up, either get a kill or chunk the enemy hard enough that they are forced to play cautious until their health regenerates.
In addition, Tristana can naturally push the creep wave under the enemy tower and this will deny the opponent's opportunity to harass.
Runes: Flat attack damage quints, and reds. Flat armor yellow and magic resist per level. The reason for the flat attack damage quints and reds is to help last hit creep. Tristana can be difficult to CS because of her E passive. One tip I find useful in csing with tristana is to auto attack the minion that is getting killed fastest.
Another option is to go lifesteal quints. It is really strong for ad carries since the recent sustain nerf on vamp scepter. It's the most cost effective way to use your quint spots.
Skills:
Passive( draw a bead): Increase your auto attack range per level. At level 18, her attack range is 703, it allows you to hit baron and dragon from behind the pit.
Q: rapid fire: Increase your attack speed for 7 seconds, cooldown is 20 seconds. The attack speed boost is 30 / 45 / 60 / 75 / 90%. (max this second)
W: rocket jump: Tristana jump to target location, the range is 900 to the center of the radius. Magic Damage: 70 / 115 / 160 / 205 / 250 (+0.8 per ability power). The cooldown reset upon a kill or an assit. The closer you jump, the faster it's executed. Also, you set off cait traps/Event horizon if your jump trajectory is over a trap and you can get hit by C/C during your jump. (max this skill 1st) The damage on W scales better with level than E, so that's the reason for maxing W over E.
E: It's a dmg/ over time skill, it's very strong early levels (read level 1).The passive pushes your lane. Try to E the enemy when they are chugging a health pot, it would be the equivalent of doing 25 extra damage. (get a level in E at level 1 and level 4)
R: a good nuke, it pushes enemy back, it can push back more than 1 enemy if they are all bunched. The distance of displacement increases with level. Gives you good kill potential at level 6.
With W and ult, it can be a very useful tool to gank mid, you can jump behind the enemy and ult them toward your own mid.(However, your primary job should be farming, Tristana is useless late game without items, you should try get your full build asap).
Items:
I like starting with doran's blade. I used to start with boots and pots, and go flash/heal. But I find doran's blade with heal ignite wins lane more.
Typically I try to get an extra doran's blade and boot in first trip back. If the enemy laner has a lot of sustain/and harasses you alot, then I will also get a vamp scepter.
After 2 doran's blades and boots, you have a couple of choices:
Item path 1: IE-> PD-> LW -> QSS-> bloodthirster: this is the standard, if enemy have hard CC/fed mages and armor.
Item path 2: IE->PD->PD: Go this path if they have no armor and you are ahead.
Item path 3. IE-> LW -> PD: Multiple enemy have built armor and your ap carry does no damage.
Support: always ask your support to get ignite or exhaust.
I think leona is probably the best support for Tristana. She has CC, damage and lvl 6 burst.
Other good supports are alistair and taric.
Leona vs alistair, if I had to choose between those 2, it would be leona, because her ult is one of the best initiation in the game. (longest ranged AOE stun).
The difference between leona and alistar is that leona is very weak at level 1. If your opponent is good you will get denied from creep at the very first level.
Laning: It's pretty complicated, it depends on who's support, who's the enemy ad carry, what summoners did they take and what items do they have. Be smart about engaging.
If you have summoner advantage over your opponents at level 2, and most of the time you do. You always want to jump in and E + ignite. This pretty much guarantees that you win your lane.
In general, you want to push your wave under their tower. There are many good reasons for this: 1)minimize their harass and maximize yours. 2) Make them lose last hits. 3) Open opportunities for your jungler to invade or help in case of counter jungling. (If the enemy bot lane follows, they will lose minion waves and exp at their tower.)
However, depending on the enemy jungler and mid, you may not want to do this. For example, TF mid and pantheon jungle.
Playstyle: At early levels, when you jump in, use ignite, then E while in midair. You get extra AP and AD . The early ignite gives them heal reduction, and if they blow a summoner to get away, your ignite will comeback up before their exhaust, heal, cleanse, and flash. It's important to know when their summoner's and your support's summoners will be up. That way you can win all trades.
At level 6, your combo does a total of 600 magic damage ( W+E+R), ignite does 170 damage. With 30 magic resist, your combo does 462+ 170 true damage= 632.
However, make sure you have enough mana to do your combo.
If opponents are harassing you at ur tower, keep in mind that trist can jump behind them and ult them into tower.
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Argument for maxing Q
A while back I thought about maxing Q instead of E. Most guides say to max E on tristana but I find that E doesn't scale very well. It does 110 damage at level 1 and then 110+30*3=230 at level 4. So from level 1->4 it only doubles in strength.
There's no other benefit from E. The mana cost also increases with level. Although the splash on killing units is good at clearing waves I don't like making it stronger since it pushes the wave too much and only idiots stand in the minion wave taking explosive shots to the face. But if they were to stand in the minions taking explosive shot splash, you could also just shoot them with your autoattacks.
Explosive shot is also a DoT so it doesn't offer more burst that you may want in a 2v2 fight down bot lane than Q does.
I made a text file trying to figure out how much damage tristana did in a fight where she didn't get stunned or interrupted given if she maxed Q or E first.
I find Q as good at pushing waves as E when I want to push but I like having the option to not push waves.
This is what I had in the notepad file:
+ Show Spoiler +tristana rapid fire damage = %damage increase * base attack speed * damage at level
At levels 1,3,5,7,9
Tristana's E damage = damage of spell.
Assuming no pickaxe yet, just serkers greaves and vamp scepter (1500 gold and haven't backed yet)
At what level is Q better than E?
Level 1, Q = .3*.658*(46.5+3)*7=68.4 damage
Level 3, Q = .45*.658*(46.5+3*3)*7=115 damage
Level 5, Q = .6*.658*(46.5+5*3)*7=170 damage
Level 7, Q = .75*.658*(46.5+7*3)*7=233 damage
As you can see, Q grows much more quickly whereas E grows by 30 damage per level.
In trades though, I would think putting more points in Q is worth it if you can get one more shot in.
Although I tried to be very specific, it's likely Q will only get to work on an indeterminate number of cooldown cycles though theoretically, it could work on a specific amount depending on how far you are into a cooldown when it starts and when it wears off. It works on 6.3 cycles (.658*.9) at level 5.
Q is much worse when you only get 1 or 2 attacks off like when you are running or chasing or trading.
E deals damage over 5 seconds anyways.
Q deals damage over 7 seconds.
E is a good harassment tool in that the splash damage hurts enemies.
E costs 50-90 mana whereas W costs 80 mana and Q costs 80 mana.
Once you get some good attack damage items, Q becomes much much better. If you max Q first, it may be a good idea to skip greaves for IE first.
If you build doran's blades early on the comparison is stupidly in favor of maxing Q first.
Finally, I just feel like I'm much stronger when I max Q first than when I max E. You get the damage back with Q in 1-2 attacks. Don't max E.
Summoners
I take flash with no exceptions.
Against ashe I take cleanse as well.
Exhaust, and heal are my other main summoners though I do see the appeal of ignite, your E already reduces healing effects and the status does not stack.
With flash you can do a jump->flash->ult into your team combo whenever you have an advantage. Don't do it against ashe or vayne if it puts you in a position to get hit by a tower with condemn/frost arrow.
Smartcasting
I smartcast tristana's E and R but not her W: her jump. I like knowing exactly where I'll jump and often mess up jumps or don't go the maximum distance when I don't smartcast.
One neat trick you can do with tristana if you see someone backing near their tower, when they only have one autoattack of life left and no heals or stuns, is to jump in, auto them while jumping, and jump right back out.
Tristana's jump is (partly?) treated a as a dash so don't try to jump through curvy terrain when she's up next to it but only on Tuesdays. She can however jump over areas like thick walls that other true dashes can't do. When tristana jumps over something like a caitlyn trap, she activates the trap.
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I dont know if I like where Trist is right now.
She's not a bad AD carry but I feel like other carrys can out perform in late game.
Late game, her W and Ult damage isn't that great. Her range and AS steroid are the only things keeping her going, but if you look at other carrys like Vayne or Graves or Kog, their late game output seems to be more frightening.
Basically Trist's Ult = Vayne's E, not to mention Vayne's E can stun if used correctly
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On April 08 2012 14:07 GhostOwl wrote:
I dont know if I like where Trist is right now.
She's not a bad AD carry but I feel like other carrys can out perform in late game.
Late game, her W and Ult damage isn't that great. Her range and AS steroid are the only things keeping her going, but if you look at other carrys like Vayne or Graves or Kog, their late game output seems to be more frightening.
Basically Trist's Ult = Vayne's E, not to mention Vayne's E can stun if used correctly
Yeah I agree. I really don't see anything that tristana does that other people don't do better. In a way she's a bit like Kayle (pre patch) in that she doesn't have a role in which she is the go-to champion. I've never been in a game where tristana has truly scared me in the way that Vayne and Kog can late game.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
I have to disagree. With the longest passive range at level 18, if you're decently farmed, it's really hard for opposing teams to even reach you if you position well. You essentially have 2 escapes in your jump and ultimate as well as Flash should you choose to take it. Tack on top a ridiculous steroid and you can essentially kite people all day if they choose to jump you and kill them rather well.
Long range means you can stay pretty safe and with multiple escapes you shouldn't have too hard of a time autoattacking from afar. Not to mention her early game is also really strong. Ridiculous burst in lane alongside an aggressive support.
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edit: I agree with the guy above me, sorry if it's just a repeat of what he said, I wrote this before I saw the above post.
Kog outperforms Trist in pretty much every single way. But I think Kog is going to get nerfed.
As for other ad carries, they outperform trist in some ways but trist are better in others. Mostly because of highest ad range, highest att speed steroid, second longest jump (900 range) that refreshes on kill/assist, furthest Knock back of any champ.
So he's really hard to get to, other AD carries are more vulnerable. In teamfights, these other ad carries do less damage, because they have to kite/ get zoned from the the fight. But, trist can attack more often, before he have to start moving away.
Trist is a tradeoff between having a good early and late game in exchange for your midgame. Trist's midgame is very weak, even if she is an item ahead, she can't outduel graves, vayne, or sivir. And she can't outburst Corki, Ezreal.
That's why heal ignite is strong on tristana, it allows you to have a much stronger early game so that hopefully you can get some kills. If you come up ahead in early game, the late game transition is alot easier.
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Why not max W first? Way too easy to escape ganks and clean up a team fight.
Also, once you really learn Trist, she becomes super powerful in your hands. Calculated Rocekt Jumps into the enemy's tower can net an easy kill, then the Rocket Jump CD reset helps you get right back out.
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On April 08 2012 09:20 obesechicken13 wrote:
Argument for maxing Q
A while back I thought about maxing Q instead of E. Most guides say to max E on tristana
Never heard anyone maxing E on tristana.
But the reason why you max Q second is because by then you will have enough range and items to make use of it. It's pretty rare case that you would get to sit there and just hit people during lane phase for 7 seconds.
Even with Q, against most other AD carries you lose in a duel. Given the same number of items, I think graves, kogmaw, and vayne can just straight up kill you.
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WEWEWR first 6 levels, then W > Q > E.
Q doesn't do shit early, and E is at least a little useful for the (threatened) harrass and burst.
Only reason to ever get Q pre-6 is if you're a 2v1 lane and want to kill the tower.
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Claims are usually followed by proof.
If you get one more autoattack in because of Q in a trade even early on then it will have done more than maxing E. You don't max W because trading with it forces you to commit. The cooldown on W goes down to at minimum 14 seconds on rank 5. That's still too long to use twice in one fight. Before you type that "W resets on kills" I know it does! That's not the point.
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On April 09 2012 01:13 obesechicken13 wrote:
Claims are usually followed by proof.
If you get one more autoattack in because of Q in a trade even early on then it will have done more than maxing E. You don't max W because trading with it forces you to commit. The cooldown on W goes down to at minimum 14 seconds on rank 5. That's still too long to use twice in one fight. Before you type that "W resets on kills" I know it does! That's not the point.
I want proof too.
Tell me please, how will you ever get your full Q-DPS without dying?
Trist is still bad at trading, no matter how early you get Q. Graves, Kog, Vayne, Urgot, MF etc. all do more 1v1 DPS. They only AD that doesn't straight up kill you in a 1v1 is probably Ashe, and she'll just kite you and the Q is wasted.
You get E early because you can just cast it after an AA and then back off. The DoT gets full duration, you don't lose much health.*
EDIT: *OBVIOUSLY NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF THAT
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On April 09 2012 01:13 obesechicken13 wrote:
Claims are usually followed by proof.
If you get one more autoattack in because of Q in a trade even early on then it will have done more than maxing E. You don't max W because trading with it forces you to commit. The cooldown on W goes down to at minimum 14 seconds on rank 5. That's still too long to use twice in one fight. Before you type that "W resets on kills" I know it does! That's not the point.
burst is trist's strength early. if you don't max w first you have no burst and even with maxed q you are going to loss in auto trades with every ad. trist wins lanes by having enough burst along with your sup to 100 to zero someone or by jumping on them when they are alone because the sup went to ward or something, backing off then going in again and bursting them down. you should never be able to beat an other ad by trading autos.
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Huh. I really dislike this OP since it's so brief and doesn't actually talk about much, even if you wanted to open discussion on Tristana. Imo, OPs really should be detailed threads that knowledgeable people about the champion are willing to maintain and talk about. But whatever, I'll overlook that there's no mentioned of everything from the Alistar-Trist combo to all the lane-matchup intricacies such as going W or E first and other Summoner Spells.
Anyway, if you have a lane you need to push back against, or if you're never going to trade with W because it kills you, it's ok to level E a bit more. Q maxed by the early teens though since it's a massive dps steriod for the mid-game fights, especially since you should have IE by around 20 or early 20s. But you need to be super careful when using it since the CD is pretty punishing. Doran start is also being super greedy, especially in a high harass lane or with no sustain support. Heal is a combat summoner, not a keep you in lane longer. And once you've blown it, you've lost a lot of kill potential. W is of course an escape tool, or a chase tool but only used for chase when you're not going to die.
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On April 09 2012 01:13 obesechicken13 wrote:
Claims are usually followed by proof.
If you get one more autoattack in because of Q in a trade even early on then it will have done more than maxing E. You don't max W because trading with it forces you to commit. The cooldown on W goes down to at minimum 14 seconds on rank 5. That's still too long to use twice in one fight. Before you type that "W resets on kills" I know it does! That's not the point.
Yesterday i saw a game at IPL with the mono AD-carry doing some weird shit (i think he had 2 in Q, 2 in W and 1 in E+his ulti at lvl 6). They were leona+trist vs soraka and corki, and you could just see that it wasn't possible to burst down anyone, because even with a BF, they didn't have enough burst to counter sorakas sustain.
You ALWAYS max W first. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS THERE IS NO EXCEPTION EVER!!!
You can generally pick up Q in lvl 4, if you feel like you won't be able to burst them down at any point, but still then i prefer getting a 2nd level in e. It helps alot with pushing, and it's free harass, because most people don't really bother.
Oh and sometimes getting E at lvl 1 isn't a bad idea, if you feel like you don't need the escape mechanic. The dot is really great+trist will hit him with auto so you can auto-e-auto, but it forces you into a close range, so be careful.
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I see some point to W.
OP, your paragraph on W is a bit confusing. You say to max W first and then second in the same paragraph lol
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Leona + Trist is usually better than ali + trist. Mainly because leona's ult at level 6 add to the burst that trist does at level 6.
However, it can be difficult at level 1 with leona +trist.
I get a level in E first to push lane to get a fast lvl 2. But if you start W, you take less damage doing double golems.
Also leona is a better initiator, she has an AOE stun with the longest range in the game and is only on a 60 sec cooldown. Imo leona support does everything better than alistair.
Edit: definitely max W first, sorry for confusion. I fixed it. I meant to say get W at level 2.
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tristana's 6 item lategame is probably the best hands down
vayne has comparable damage and more maneuverability in a short range
but against the vast majority of teams, tristana's more effective self peel and extreme range allow her unparalleled damage output as she can constantly be attacking with minimal spell usage
she has a very strong level 6, but has a large drought in her midgame strength (whereas many other champions have strong steroids or relatively low risk low cd spells that can be used for poke, trist's kit is only good for hard engagements and using her rocket jump to utilize its damage fully is often suicidal early in fights) where many common ADs these days do not.
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Also for the runes and masteries sections i think you should elaborate abit more. While the 15 ad is nice and helps last-hitting, it doesn't really help her that much in lane besides that. Being "tanky" and playing abit ballsy can often result in an easy FB, because you're so fucking strong at lvl 2 with cc supports (leona, taric, ali).
Arp reds or ad reds, armor seals, flat mres and hp quints is very neat and gives tristana everything she needs to play agressive in lane.
For masteries you can go 21/9/0 or 23/0/7, whatever fits your playstyle. I would recommend flash/heal tho, flash is really just mandatory on ad carries these days with all them gap closers.
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On April 09 2012 04:19 Navi wrote:
tristana's 6 item lategame is probably the best hands down
vayne has comparable damage and more maneuverability in a short range
but against the vast majority of teams, tristana's more effective self peel and extreme range allow her unparalleled damage output as she can constantly be attacking with minimal spell usage
she has a very strong level 6, but has a large drought in her midgame strength (whereas many other champions have strong steroids or relatively low risk low cd spells that can be used for poke, trist's kit is only good for hard engagements and using her rocket jump to utilize its damage fully is often suicidal early in fights) where many common ADs these days do not.
I think I might disagree with you on that. I have always felt that the scariest 6-item AD carry is Ashe by far. She has a great initiate, reliable AOE damage with CC, CC, more CC, and a nice little scout. You can always avoid trist but if an Ashe has her ult up she will get close enough o you that you wont ever get away
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wats the big deal with tristana?
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On April 09 2012 05:07 Juddas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:19 Navi wrote:
tristana's 6 item lategame is probably the best hands down
vayne has comparable damage and more maneuverability in a short range
but against the vast majority of teams, tristana's more effective self peel and extreme range allow her unparalleled damage output as she can constantly be attacking with minimal spell usage
she has a very strong level 6, but has a large drought in her midgame strength (whereas many other champions have strong steroids or relatively low risk low cd spells that can be used for poke, trist's kit is only good for hard engagements and using her rocket jump to utilize its damage fully is often suicidal early in fights) where many common ADs these days do not. I think I might disagree with you on that. I have always felt that the scariest 6-item AD carry is Ashe by far. She has a great initiate, reliable AOE damage with CC, CC, more CC, and a nice little scout. You can always avoid trist but if an Ashe has her ult up she will get close enough o you that you wont ever get away
6-item carries will have QSS or BV which can reduce or nullify her initiate (plus Sivir can shield and Vayne can tumble, sadly you can be hit as Trist if you jump). Also, Trist will be safer against Ashe because of her range (Kog has that too) and escapes. Trist will also be close to the AS cap with a standard AD full build and Q. I think Trist would poop on Ashe in a direct comparison, but your respective team comps will decide the outcome and their reaction to a thrown arrow.
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On April 09 2012 05:07 Juddas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:19 Navi wrote:
tristana's 6 item lategame is probably the best hands down
vayne has comparable damage and more maneuverability in a short range
but against the vast majority of teams, tristana's more effective self peel and extreme range allow her unparalleled damage output as she can constantly be attacking with minimal spell usage
she has a very strong level 6, but has a large drought in her midgame strength (whereas many other champions have strong steroids or relatively low risk low cd spells that can be used for poke, trist's kit is only good for hard engagements and using her rocket jump to utilize its damage fully is often suicidal early in fights) where many common ADs these days do not. I think I might disagree with you on that. I have always felt that the scariest 6-item AD carry is Ashe by far. She has a great initiate, reliable AOE damage with CC, CC, more CC, and a nice little scout. You can always avoid trist but if an Ashe has her ult up she will get close enough o you that you wont ever get away
I feel like Trist is only a bit behind Ashe. Give Trist red buff when she has PD, green elixir, a maxed Q, and some other AS steroid like a Zekes, Blood Boil, or Hunter's Call (?), and if she catches someone, he/she is either dead or on the way back to base.
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^ This is also true... You raise a good point. Another thing about ashe though is that she nullifies most bruisers late game. She can just permaslow them from reaching her, and I think this is one drawback of trist.
Maybe this belongs in GD though
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On April 09 2012 07:02 Juddas wrote:
^ This is also true... You raise a good point. Another thing about ashe though is that she nullifies most bruisers late game. She can just permaslow them from reaching her, and I think this is one drawback of trist.
Maybe this belongs in GD though
I also believe Trist has a leg up in this area as well. If a very well placed Buster Shot occurs, the rest of the team can just hundred to zero the victim.
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i am of the opinion that 6 item trist is the one of if the the strongest 6 item champ. she has great dps and incredibly hard to get to especially with red buff. she also is the best at pushing down towers in stand offs and clears waves like a beast. when i get to 5 or 6 item trist i feel like i always win unless my team just insta dies.
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On April 09 2012 05:07 Juddas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 04:19 Navi wrote:
tristana's 6 item lategame is probably the best hands down
vayne has comparable damage and more maneuverability in a short range
but against the vast majority of teams, tristana's more effective self peel and extreme range allow her unparalleled damage output as she can constantly be attacking with minimal spell usage
she has a very strong level 6, but has a large drought in her midgame strength (whereas many other champions have strong steroids or relatively low risk low cd spells that can be used for poke, trist's kit is only good for hard engagements and using her rocket jump to utilize its damage fully is often suicidal early in fights) where many common ADs these days do not. I think I might disagree with you on that. I have always felt that the scariest 6-item AD carry is Ashe by far. She has a great initiate, reliable AOE damage with CC, CC, more CC, and a nice little scout. You can always avoid trist but if an Ashe has her ult up she will get close enough o you that you wont ever get away
Both of you guys are mistaken. Late game 6 item Vayne is the best. "Vayne has comparable damage"? Are you kidding me? Vayne has the highest ranged AD carry damage late game.
If we're just talking about pure DPS:
Trist has 1 attack speed steroid
Ashe has a small crit steroid
Vayne has Tumble steroid, Ult gives AD steroid, Silver bolts gives true damage based on % health, and her scaling is quite good. The scary thing is, all of her steroids work together to complement one another...meaning if you can get a crit off with all these, she can melt tanks in few shots.
You might argue that Trist's long range can let her get more "free" shots, thus adding to DPS.
Well, Vayne's stealth lets her get more "free" shots, thus adding to DPS.
Ashe is by far the weakest of the three in terms of pure DPS output. However, she brings a lot of utility to the team, and can initiate though.
The thing is, teams don't really need AD carrys to initiate and bring utility to the table. We have supports and tanks for that. AD carrys are simply expected to dish out raw damage..which Vayne excels in doing. As long as you have a competent team that protects AD carrys well, late game Vayne is much much much more preferrable to Trist/Ashe.
The only flaw about Vayne is about her weak early game laning phase.
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On April 09 2012 16:39 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2012 05:07 Juddas wrote:On April 09 2012 04:19 Navi wrote:
tristana's 6 item lategame is probably the best hands down
vayne has comparable damage and more maneuverability in a short range
but against the vast majority of teams, tristana's more effective self peel and extreme range allow her unparalleled damage output as she can constantly be attacking with minimal spell usage
she has a very strong level 6, but has a large drought in her midgame strength (whereas many other champions have strong steroids or relatively low risk low cd spells that can be used for poke, trist's kit is only good for hard engagements and using her rocket jump to utilize its damage fully is often suicidal early in fights) where many common ADs these days do not. I think I might disagree with you on that. I have always felt that the scariest 6-item AD carry is Ashe by far. She has a great initiate, reliable AOE damage with CC, CC, more CC, and a nice little scout. You can always avoid trist but if an Ashe has her ult up she will get close enough o you that you wont ever get away Both of you guys are mistaken. Late game 6 item Vayne is the best. "Vayne has comparable damage"? Are you kidding me? Vayne has the highest ranged AD carry damage late game. If we're just talking about pure DPS: Trist has 1 attack speed steroid Ashe has a small crit steroid Vayne has Tumble steroid, Ult gives AD steroid, Silver bolts gives true damage based on % health, and her scaling is quite good. The scary thing is, all of her steroids work together to complement one another...meaning if you can get a crit off with all these, she can melt tanks in few shots. You might argue that Trist's long range can let her get more "free" shots, thus adding to DPS. Well, Vayne's stealth lets her get more "free" shots, thus adding to DPS. Ashe is by far the weakest of the three in terms of pure DPS output. However, she brings a lot of utility to the team, and can initiate though. The thing is, teams don't really need AD carrys to initiate and bring utility to the table. We have supports and tanks for that. AD carrys are simply expected to dish out raw damage..which Vayne excels in doing. As long as you have a competent team that protects AD carrys well, late game Vayne is much much much more preferrable to Trist/Ashe. The only flaw about Vayne is about her weak early game laning phase.
I think alot of people have said late game Trist has the highest DPS in the game, Kog is right after iirc
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Twitch and Kog'maw does more damage than both vayne and tristana.
However, between vayne and tristana:
You can't neglate range when you measure DPS. Vayne is 550 range, and Tristana have 703 range at level 18. It's difficult to compare their damage output in a teamfight. If they are at melee range, then vayne does more damage because her steroid is more bursty.
Edit: just saw that thread by doublelift on trist and kog. I was wrong, tristana does more damage than Kog with 6 items.
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Tristana is easily the best 6-item carry in the game.
She has 1 escape and 1 peel.
In the late game scenario where surviving becomes the #1 priority, tristana is easily the best.
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I'm not really sold on Trist > Kog lategame. She has a lot going for her, but so does Kog. He has a bunch of free damage and his ult is quite capable of being problematic for the opposing team due to his AD ratio on it. They do different things and are more effective in different scenarios IMO.
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I did some math with 6 items, no runes, no masteries, no pots: ( lol, I forgot to take into account zerkers, but even if I look account of the zerker att speed, it would only help Kog who have higher base attack speed and on hit effect)
The 6 items are : LW + Phandom dancer + IE + BT +boots+ qss
Tristana with her Q in 7 seconds does about 13.5 auto attacks and Kog Maw does about 10.5 auto attacks.
3 auto attack aproximately equal to 1800 physical damage (taken account crits and everything). However, Kog Maw does 80% hp magic damage with 10 auto attacks. It seems their damage in just auto attacking is comparable.
That's not including kog's ults
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Canada11382 Posts
Finally a Tristana guide on TL. I'm pretty terrible and surviving in team fights with her though.
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I pretty much go dorans -> dorans -> zerkers -> IE -> PD -> vampiric sceptor -> LW -> BT every game with tristana, can somebody give me a breakdown of what I should get for my 6th item and in which circumstances?
(I'm relatively new, not level 30 yet, so keep that in mind)
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On April 11 2012 06:32 Mogwai wrote:
I'm not really sold on Trist > Kog lategame. She has a lot going for her, but so does Kog. He has a bunch of free damage and his ult is quite capable of being problematic for the opposing team due to his AD ratio on it. They do different things and are more effective in different scenarios IMO.
Trist has a lot more mobility to actually get off her damage consitently & safely though, especially once people start dying.
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Get a GA in cases where you want a slot efficient item that's forgiving in case you die in a teamfight while your allies are around. QSS is more cost efficient for stopping crap like veigar stun, WW suppress, ashe stun, malzahar suppress, skarner ult and all the other CC in the game. Warmogs also gives you a lot more room for error and removes a lot of the potential for people to one shot you (fricking veigar). BV blocks a spell, gives life, and MR.
The above is really all theory but in game I feel a lot better with GA than I do with other items.
GA=guardian angel
QSS=Quicksilver sash
WW=Warwick
BV=Banshee's veil
CC=Crowd Control
MR=Magic Resist
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On April 12 2012 05:04 Complete wrote:
I pretty much go dorans -> dorans -> zerkers -> IE -> PD -> vampiric sceptor -> LW -> BT every game with tristana, can somebody give me a breakdown of what I should get for my 6th item and in which circumstances?
(I'm relatively new, not level 30 yet, so keep that in mind)
Sometimes it's better to get a vamp scepter along with your BF sword before finishing your IE. The sustain is very useful.
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When I play tristana, I somehow find myself doing absolutely no damage mid game against bruisers. The late game is enormous but the team usually cant carry me.
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Maxing Q makes you stronger midgame than maxing W/E.
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On April 12 2012 10:37 Strykemard wrote:
When I play tristana, I somehow find myself doing absolutely no damage mid game against bruisers. The late game is enormous but the team usually cant carry me.
Thats Tristana for you XD
Great early game burst with Rocket Jump/Explosive Shot/Ignite, slow mid game because you're just starting to build up your core items and high armor brusiers are super effective here(pre Last Whisper), and arguably the best traditional 6 item Ranged Carry late game with that INSANE range/AS
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Tristana is by far my best AD carry. One problem I always have with her is her lack of mana though: her abilities are costly and her max mana is very low. Her abilities are where she really shines early game but it is rare for me to have enough mana for a full early lvl 6 combo (W+E+R), especially when I love to spam e for harass (I build WEEWWR). I cant count the amount of times I've jumped in for a kill then not had enough mana to jump back out.
To solve this, I have started getting the mana masteries (Expanded Mind and Meditation), this has really helped me out although I am a bit weaker due missing the increased max health from defensive tree. Does anyone else have this mana problem, and what do you think of my solution?
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Your solution is perfect for players who like to harass ALOT in laneing phase and deny the enemy laner some cs. Although 9 in utility is more commonly ran on say, Ezreal or Corki, in your case its fine 
Using some mana glyphs in your rune page can also alleviate some mana problems if you have them as well.
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I dont think you should be running mana glyphs on Tristana. Its better to port back and buy more as you run out of mana, or worst case, buy some mana pots.
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Lol people are really lost in this thread.
Tristana does have a decent burst in early levels cause you should be maxing her e first. It does a nice damage overtime and its range was buffed recently. Take w at lvl 2, and max it last.
Tristana midgame is weak. I wonder why people would run mana runes on her. That's pointless. The only mana Tristana will need is for doing his q cause she was desgined lategame champion. She can literally melt a entire team if not targeted (and even doing so she does have w and r to save her). Longest autoattack range in game (in so called normal attacks, no steroid like Kog), one of the best aspeed steroid in game, and high damage input, she is a devastating champion.
User was warned for this post
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On April 08 2012 23:47 Wayra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 09:20 obesechicken13 wrote:
Argument for maxing Q
A while back I thought about maxing Q instead of E. Most guides say to max E on tristana Never heard anyone maxing E on tristana. But the reason why you max Q second is because by then you will have enough range and items to make use of it. It's pretty rare case that you would get to sit there and just hit people during lane phase for 7 seconds. Even with Q, against most other AD carries you lose in a duel. Given the same number of items, I think graves, kogmaw, and vayne can just straight up kill you.
I actually max E first. Makes farming so easy. Sorry I meant by maxing W first. But I do max E second.
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Umm, why would you max E first? Farming isn't that much harder with 2 points in e as opposed to 5. Points into W scales better than points into E and also reduces cooldown otherwise you're not making use of her burst damage at all.
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On April 12 2012 15:05 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Umm, why would you max E first? Farming isn't that much harder with 2 points in e as opposed to 5. Points into W scales better than points into E and also reduces cooldown otherwise you're not making use of her burst damage at all.
This, most Tristana players dont max E because it pushes the lane and sometimes you just want to last hit, also it doesnt reduce cooldown if leveled, only damage.
Plus theres no point in leveling Q second since its best used after you scaled later in the game
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On April 12 2012 14:47 Hero.SP wrote:
Lol people are really lost in this thread.
Tristana does have a decent burst in early levels cause you should be maxing her e first. It does a nice damage overtime and its range was buffed recently. Take w at lvl 2, and max it last .
wow I am sure that everyone is stupid except you .
Why the hell would anyone max E when it gets only +30 damage per skill level and the rocket jump gets +45 damage per level? Also, if you level up E its manacost grows. And its cooldown wont go down with levels.
And in the case of rocketjump, its manacost is always the same, but the CD will go down, which is kinda important if you want to survive in midgame. And if you get an assist/kill, the higher damage on it gives you a bigger chance to kill the next guy.
So any arguments for why we are all lost?
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On April 12 2012 15:53 freelander wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 14:47 Hero.SP wrote:
Lol people are really lost in this thread.
Tristana does have a decent burst in early levels cause you should be maxing her e first. It does a nice damage overtime and its range was buffed recently. Take w at lvl 2, and max it last . wow I am sure that everyone is stupid except you . Why the hell would anyone max E when it gets only +30 damage per skill level and the rocket jump gets +45 damage per level? Also, if you level up E its manacost grows. And its cooldown wont go down with levels. And in the case of rocketjump, its manacost is always the same, but the CD will go down, which is kinda important if you want to survive in midgame. And if you get an assist/kill, the higher damage on it gives you a bigger chance to kill the next guy. So any arguments for why we are all lost?
This
Plus the fact that maxing E first means you push like a madman and your passive will make you lose cs. Not only that, but maxing Q early doesn't really do all that much for you since it's most efficient after you've completed some big items, most notably your IE.
Standard build (amongst pros as well) is W max first, then only level E to however much you feel is necessary to burst/farm/push, which usually means you level it to 2-3 and leave it there, since E is really only useful in lane. This means when you stop laning, you stop leveling E. Then you max Q, getting your ulti whenever you can.
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As funny as it sounds I usually max Q first. And by that I mean when I start to level it at level 8 it gets maxed before W.
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I personally think that nowadays it's best to just get 1 point in E (the first point in it is super strong and it tapers off after that) then leave the rest for last. After that just max W > Q. Every point in E you put early game delays your maxed Q by 1 level and it's pretty noticeable.
Finishing Q before W makes sense too, it should depend on the game I think? Ideally you should have a maxed Q the same time you finish your BF sword and you'll be in a really good spot.
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On April 12 2012 14:47 Hero.SP wrote:
Lol people are really lost in this thread.
Tristana does have a decent burst in early levels cause you should be maxing her e first. It does a nice damage overtime and its range was buffed recently. Take w at lvl 2, and max it last.
Tristana midgame is weak. I wonder why people would run mana runes on her. That's pointless. The only mana Tristana will need is for doing his q cause she was desgined lategame champion. She can literally melt a entire team if not targeted (and even doing so she does have w and r to save her). Longest autoattack range in game (in so called normal attacks, no steroid like Kog), one of the best aspeed steroid in game, and high damage input, she is a devastating champion.
User was warned for this post
What the fuck?
Seriously people, no matter what, ALWAYS MAX W FIRST. Maxing E won't do anything to improve your laning, your team fighting etc. maxing Q, seems kinda obvious, but as many people state her mid-game is weak, so it doesn't matter if you max it second, because by the time it's rank 5, you should be sitting on at least IE+zeal. When you get your phantom dancer, you will start seeing a heavy lift in your dps along with Q, but still feel kinda weak when it's on CD.
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On April 12 2012 18:02 Sponkz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 14:47 Hero.SP wrote:
Lol people are really lost in this thread.
Tristana does have a decent burst in early levels cause you should be maxing her e first. It does a nice damage overtime and its range was buffed recently. Take w at lvl 2, and max it last.
Tristana midgame is weak. I wonder why people would run mana runes on her. That's pointless. The only mana Tristana will need is for doing his q cause she was desgined lategame champion. She can literally melt a entire team if not targeted (and even doing so she does have w and r to save her). Longest autoattack range in game (in so called normal attacks, no steroid like Kog), one of the best aspeed steroid in game, and high damage input, she is a devastating champion.
User was warned for this post What the fuck? Seriously people, no matter what, ALWAYS MAX W FIRST. Maxing E won't do anything to improve your laning, your team fighting etc. maxing Q, seems kinda obvious, but as many people state her mid-game is weak, so it doesn't matter if you max it second, because by the time it's rank 5, you should be sitting on at least IE+zeal. When you get your phantom dancer, you will start seeing a heavy lift in your dps along with Q, but still feel kinda weak when it's on CD.
listen to this man, the whole point of heal/ignite is for tristana to have a fearless engage with W R burst mixed in and E is only peripherally useful as a heal reducer. besides, maxing W improves Cd and makes tristana much more mobile and effective. E is only damage and Q requires items to be effective
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On April 12 2012 18:08 GenericTerranPlayer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 18:02 Sponkz wrote:On April 12 2012 14:47 Hero.SP wrote:
Lol people are really lost in this thread.
Tristana does have a decent burst in early levels cause you should be maxing her e first. It does a nice damage overtime and its range was buffed recently. Take w at lvl 2, and max it last.
Tristana midgame is weak. I wonder why people would run mana runes on her. That's pointless. The only mana Tristana will need is for doing his q cause she was desgined lategame champion. She can literally melt a entire team if not targeted (and even doing so she does have w and r to save her). Longest autoattack range in game (in so called normal attacks, no steroid like Kog), one of the best aspeed steroid in game, and high damage input, she is a devastating champion.
User was warned for this post What the fuck? Seriously people, no matter what, ALWAYS MAX W FIRST. Maxing E won't do anything to improve your laning, your team fighting etc. maxing Q, seems kinda obvious, but as many people state her mid-game is weak, so it doesn't matter if you max it second, because by the time it's rank 5, you should be sitting on at least IE+zeal. When you get your phantom dancer, you will start seeing a heavy lift in your dps along with Q, but still feel kinda weak when it's on CD. listen to this man, the whole point of heal/ignite is for tristana to have a fearless engage with W R burst mixed in and E is only peripherally useful as a heal reducer. besides, maxing W improves Cd and makes tristana much more mobile and effective. E is only damage and Q requires items to be effective
So why did you quote me, when i actually approve these statements? :p
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On April 12 2012 16:10 Juicyfruit wrote:
I personally think that nowadays it's best to just get 1 point in E (the first point in it is super strong and it tapers off after that) then leave the rest for last. After that just max W > Q. Every point in E you put early game delays your maxed Q by 1 level and it's pretty noticeable.
Finishing Q before W makes sense too, it should depend on the game I think? Ideally you should have a maxed Q the same time you finish your BF sword and you'll be in a really good spot.
I tend to go for max q when IE finishes, so depending on if early kills get made or not I max out w fully or not. Basically if you have 2-3 kills pre 20 minutes and you last hit decently W gets left on level 4 till Q is maxed.
The idea behind this is that during dragon fights you will be relying on your auto attacks for most of your damage, while you can't really score kills with trist in lane after 11 because other carries just have a stronger midgame.
From what I understand the main reason for getting a 2nd point in E (instead of going w-e-w-q-w-r or similar builds) is mana starvation; in the laning phase it's incredibly costly to use w-q-e so you might as well take a extra 30 damage on e (and more harass dmg from last hit explosions) because you won't be using q anyways.
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On April 12 2012 13:06 YouGotNothin wrote:
Tristana is by far my best AD carry. One problem I always have with her is her lack of mana though: her abilities are costly and her max mana is very low. Her abilities are where she really shines early game but it is rare for me to have enough mana for a full early lvl 6 combo (W+E+R), especially when I love to spam e for harass (I build WEEWWR). I cant count the amount of times I've jumped in for a kill then not had enough mana to jump back out.
To solve this, I have started getting the mana masteries (Expanded Mind and Meditation), this has really helped me out although I am a bit weaker due missing the increased max health from defensive tree. Does anyone else have this mana problem, and what do you think of my solution?
I don't know how much of a difference missing the 9 in defense makes early, but I've never seen the need to go out of my way to get mana for trist. If you want to zone your opponents, you should be able to do so with the threat of using your combo (and your support's), not necessarily actually using it.
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On April 13 2012 02:24 Schmieds wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 13:06 YouGotNothin wrote:
Tristana is by far my best AD carry. One problem I always have with her is her lack of mana though: her abilities are costly and her max mana is very low. Her abilities are where she really shines early game but it is rare for me to have enough mana for a full early lvl 6 combo (W+E+R), especially when I love to spam e for harass (I build WEEWWR). I cant count the amount of times I've jumped in for a kill then not had enough mana to jump back out.
To solve this, I have started getting the mana masteries (Expanded Mind and Meditation), this has really helped me out although I am a bit weaker due missing the increased max health from defensive tree. Does anyone else have this mana problem, and what do you think of my solution? I don't know how much of a difference missing the 9 in defense makes early, but I've never seen the need to go out of my way to get mana for trist. If you want to zone your opponents, you should be able to do so with the threat of using your combo (and your support's), not necessarily actually using it.
I don't understand.
Tristana's abilities are not meant to be spammed. E is only useful if you commit to harassment (which you won't), W should never be used unless you commit to kill someone or try to escape, Q is just a steroid... I don't see how she runs out of mana. Running out of mana is a problem for MF, Caitlyn, and Ashe.
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On April 12 2012 14:47 Hero.SP wrote:
Lol people are really lost in this thread.
Tristana does have a decent burst in early levels cause you should be maxing her e first. It does a nice damage overtime and its range was buffed recently. Take w at lvl 2, and max it last.
Tristana midgame is weak. I wonder why people would run mana runes on her. That's pointless. The only mana Tristana will need is for doing his q cause she was desgined lategame champion. She can literally melt a entire team if not targeted (and even doing so she does have w and r to save her). Longest autoattack range in game (in so called normal attacks, no steroid like Kog), one of the best aspeed steroid in game, and high damage input, she is a devastating champion.
User was warned for this post
Let me rewrite that for you.
yeah everyone else is bad at this game I am sure of this
generic bad advice that you would realize was wrong by reading the OP and the first page of the thread
Generic champion advice. My rune advice is the best, no justification necessary. I'm sure of it. Champion design makes runes irrelevant. AD carries do this(escapes can't escape focused stuns). Everyone knows this(not a steroid, steroids are fine if they are used when autoattacking), AD carries have this, generic champion info.
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Trist is a really easy champion. Best ad champion for solo queue. She has agressive potentials early game, making it easy to punish, or go for agression. On the other hand, trist can also play the farmfest and still be fine, because she scales harder than most champions later on in the game. So strong early game, strong late game, no downsides, this champion is OP once kog gets nerfed. Also, you don't get e until you need to. If you get it lvl 1, you will push the lane too hard naturally, making it hard to go for your lvl 2 agression. Also, if you go for for lvl 2 e really fast, it pushes the lane hard, too. Unless you plan to push, I would just leave e at 0 or 1 points. Trist is also pretty bs because she can harass enemy under tower really well and pushes really hard. There is no mid game for trist. You can mitigate tristana's "mid game weakness" by just farming well and getting your ie asap. 
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Lol, people are mad for what I said. I actually have read the whole thread, and I can explain why maxing w is suicide.
Arguing that w is better cause reduce cooldowns, mana costs and dmg is overall wrong. You don'u use w in early game cause if you do, means you are escaping or chasing. If you are escaping, means you were attacked, you were on a bad position and your oponent saw that. You don't spam your w, maybe your e and never your q (cause you are bot lane to farm right?). If you can harrass you do it with e. If they harrass you you counter harrass with e. If they don't harrass and you dont need it, fine, you will pushing your lane harder than your oponent, true, that means just 2 things:
1- they will lose exp/gold for farming under tower, not all carries can farm under tower properly.
2 - While you have 2 (and possibly 3) escape methods. Plus if you try to zone, you should be able to buy wards and react properly to aggression. Nobody is saying you should be under their tower. Correct pushing knows how to push a lane so your push is destroyed before the next minion wave comes.
The point of my previous post was cause some1 pointed out that Tristana was a weak lategame carry, and people tended to agree with him (indirectly). Tristana is with Kog Maw, Sivir and Vayne, the strongest lategame champions (AD ranged carries).
Maxing w is pointless, you don't need cooldown, mana cost, or damage advantages. Youa ren't going to be chased that much (your lane), you SHOULDN'T be having mana issues (focus on farm) and really, really, you never should be using w for damage.
But Im okay with the warning. I didn't say anything offensive to anyone, while I was clearly trageted. Good move, sir.
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I agree with Hero.SP, I max E as harrass/counter harrass, whereas you can't really just decide to jump on somebody unless you're going for a kill because you're so squishy, you won't have an escape.
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Maxing W clearly does more damage in a burst exchange, which is what tristana excels at - jump in, sit on someone, jump away. If you catch one of the squishier supports (soraka, say) out of position in lane with a tristana/sona level 6 double combo there's no way the soraka survives that (particularly with the heal debuff). Since you've then blown your load, your only spell up is gonna be your w again, which can be nice if you want to follow up and go for the double kill.
I'm not sure about the notion that jumping on someone early game is going to get you killed is coming from - clearly if you jump on a full health alistar standing next to a graves in a full creep wave or something stupid you're asking for trouble, but this is bot lane, it's not full of 100-0 burst casters like annie or scary monster bruisers who love you being in melee range. Tristana excels at going all in and forcing the other guy back. Also, the range on e is pretty short and has a clunky animation, making it awkward to use as harass, and you'll get poked back hard by the likes of ez or sona or cait if you try to walk up to them and e, while getting in range to e a cow or a taric puts you in range in turn of their stun combo.
For farming under tower level 1 e sets up ranged minions after a tower hit whereas level 2 e and higher makes them impossible to get, which can be annoying since you cant turn the passive component off. In general, in bot lane, the passive component of e is a complete dud since you're not going to get too many hits on the enemy ranged champions down there with it and you're basically just going to push the lane - which can be nice, but it doesn't give you control over the push because you can't turn it off, so by taking a higher level of it you're guaranteeing you will push.
E is kinda a one hit wonder skill - huge level 1 base damage but mediocre scaling as you put more points in it (is 30 damage points per skill point the lowest such ratio in the game? I think some aoe spells scale worse, like ashe volley, but its pretty down there especially for a single target spell.) W max also gives you more escape options, for example if you've used it to clear a wave recently - 8 seconds is a significant amount of reduced cd on an escape spell (though that might just be me using it as a crutch - better players with more map awareness or whatever are probably better at keeping it up when they need it). Maybe in the days of trist mid you could justify it, but I dont think it has a place bot lane.
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On April 13 2012 05:20 Shanba wrote:
Maxing W clearly does more damage in a burst exchange, which is what tristana excels at - jump in, sit on someone, jump away. If you catch one of the squishier supports (soraka, say) out of position in lane with a tristana/sona level 6 double combo there's no way the soraka survives that (particularly with the heal debuff). Since you've then blown your load, your only spell up is gonna be your w again, which can be nice if you want to follow up and go for the double kill.
I'm not sure about the notion that jumping on someone early game is going to get you killed is coming from - clearly if you jump on a full health alistar standing next to a graves in a full creep wave or something stupid you're asking for trouble, but this is bot lane, it's not full of 100-0 burst casters like annie or scary monster bruisers who love you being in melee range. Tristana excels at going all in and forcing the other guy back. Also, the range on e is pretty short and has a clunky animation, making it awkward to use as harass, and you'll get poked back hard by the likes of ez or sona or cait if you try to walk up to them and e, while getting in range to e a cow or a taric puts you in range in turn of their stun combo.
For farming under tower level 1 e sets up ranged minions after a tower hit whereas level 2 e and higher makes them impossible to get, which can be annoying since you cant turn the passive component off. In general, in bot lane, the passive component of e is a complete dud since you're not going to get too many hits on the enemy ranged champions down there with it and you're basically just going to push the lane - which can be nice, but it doesn't give you control over the push because you can't turn it off, so by taking a higher level of it you're guaranteeing you will push.
E is kinda a one hit wonder skill - huge level 1 base damage but mediocre scaling as you put more points in it (is 30 damage points per skill point the lowest such ratio in the game? I think some aoe spells scale worse, like ashe volley, but its pretty down there especially for a single target spell.) W max also gives you more escape options, for example if you've used it to clear a wave recently - 8 seconds is a significant amount of reduced cd on an escape spell (though that might just be me using it as a crutch - better players with more map awareness or whatever are probably better at keeping it up when they need it). Maybe in the days of trist mid you could justify it, but I dont think it has a place bot lane.
This thread is falling into the trap of 'There is only one way to play a champ'. I actually prefer maxing Q->E->W, and can do so fairly effectively. Of course, my item build, runes, and masteries are all different from your builds as well in order to optimize this, and I also prefer to play with different supports in my lane (lulu shield OP). I assure you, though, it is not ineffective. Please dont tell everyone how to play a champ the 'proper' way.
The quoted post is a shining example of how to explain your motivations behind a build, without unexplained accusations of other builds being bad. Quality post.
I also agree with the maxing E forces pushing, which may or may not be good depending on your style and motivations. Furthermore, I find the effectiveness of maxing W is marginal compared to maxing Q first. I may not get as much utility out of being able to jump around to avoid ganks, but since I tend not to bother getting E until level 4 anyway in order to avoid pushing (I keep the 3rd stat point saved incase im getting ganked or need an additional nuke). I max Q early as a way to get 1-2 extra shots in while my support initiates a scuffle while not having to fully engage via jumping on them.
Mid game, I prefer maxing E over W because i like to keep pressure on bottom lane to make sure they are pushed at their tower and have to stay down there to keep creeps off of it. Additional benefits is that it gives a bit better dragon control (quicker for me to get there than them) and the nuke is raged and does not make me commit. You can see where this build is going... I hate commitment...
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E would be pretty amazing if you could switch the passive off. Since you can't, it's very situational. On one hand, I'd like to have 5 levels in e for the passive so that I can push the lane in like 5 seconds, but on the other this means that from 1-9 you have to deal with being quite pushed out leaving you vulnerable. I think the ideal way to play trist is to have e at 1 but have the points floating and then skill it up accordingly when you need to push out fast. That's a one-trick pony, of course.
The other problem lies within the fact that tristana has no actual burst if we don't count w. E active does low damage compared to other ad pokes and has short range, too.
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On April 13 2012 05:20 Shanba wrote:
the range on e is pretty short and has a clunky animation, making it awkward to use as harass, and you'll get poked back hard by the likes of ez or sona or cait if you try to walk up to them and e
Give this a guy a medal. I think he phrased it perfectly. Tristana is buggy as hell, not just on her E, but every single one of her skills and even auto attack. =P
For example Ryze has 675 range on Q, but you can make it seem like it has huge range by walking back as you cast it.
I think this is the primarily reason for not maxing E and not going mana regen masteries.
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imo Trist is an outdated champ who is strong because of the items in the game. IE+PD makes her what she is and without it, she would be terrible. The other AD carries can build BT first, but not Trist; she really has to rush those two items to stand a chance.
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On April 13 2012 08:21 RoyGBiv_13 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 05:20 Shanba wrote:
Maxing W clearly does more damage in a burst exchange, which is what tristana excels at - jump in, sit on someone, jump away. If you catch one of the squishier supports (soraka, say) out of position in lane with a tristana/sona level 6 double combo there's no way the soraka survives that (particularly with the heal debuff). Since you've then blown your load, your only spell up is gonna be your w again, which can be nice if you want to follow up and go for the double kill.
I'm not sure about the notion that jumping on someone early game is going to get you killed is coming from - clearly if you jump on a full health alistar standing next to a graves in a full creep wave or something stupid you're asking for trouble, but this is bot lane, it's not full of 100-0 burst casters like annie or scary monster bruisers who love you being in melee range. Tristana excels at going all in and forcing the other guy back. Also, the range on e is pretty short and has a clunky animation, making it awkward to use as harass, and you'll get poked back hard by the likes of ez or sona or cait if you try to walk up to them and e, while getting in range to e a cow or a taric puts you in range in turn of their stun combo.
For farming under tower level 1 e sets up ranged minions after a tower hit whereas level 2 e and higher makes them impossible to get, which can be annoying since you cant turn the passive component off. In general, in bot lane, the passive component of e is a complete dud since you're not going to get too many hits on the enemy ranged champions down there with it and you're basically just going to push the lane - which can be nice, but it doesn't give you control over the push because you can't turn it off, so by taking a higher level of it you're guaranteeing you will push.
E is kinda a one hit wonder skill - huge level 1 base damage but mediocre scaling as you put more points in it (is 30 damage points per skill point the lowest such ratio in the game? I think some aoe spells scale worse, like ashe volley, but its pretty down there especially for a single target spell.) W max also gives you more escape options, for example if you've used it to clear a wave recently - 8 seconds is a significant amount of reduced cd on an escape spell (though that might just be me using it as a crutch - better players with more map awareness or whatever are probably better at keeping it up when they need it). Maybe in the days of trist mid you could justify it, but I dont think it has a place bot lane. This thread is falling into the trap of 'There is only one way to play a champ'. I actually prefer maxing Q->E->W, and can do so fairly effectively. Of course, my item build, runes, and masteries are all different from your builds as well in order to optimize this, and I also prefer to play with different supports in my lane (lulu shield OP). I assure you, though, it is not ineffective. Please dont tell everyone how to play a champ the 'proper' way. The quoted post is a shining example of how to explain your motivations behind a build, without unexplained accusations of other builds being bad. Quality post. I also agree with the maxing E forces pushing, which may or may not be good depending on your style and motivations. Furthermore, I find the effectiveness of maxing W is marginal compared to maxing Q first. I may not get as much utility out of being able to jump around to avoid ganks, but since I tend not to bother getting E until level 4 anyway in order to avoid pushing (I keep the 3rd stat point saved incase im getting ganked or need an additional nuke). I max Q early as a way to get 1-2 extra shots in while my support initiates a scuffle while not having to fully engage via jumping on them. Mid game, I prefer maxing E over W because i like to keep pressure on bottom lane to make sure they are pushed at their tower and have to stay down there to keep creeps off of it. Additional benefits is that it gives a bit better dragon control (quicker for me to get there than them) and the nuke is raged and does not make me commit. You can see where this build is going... I hate commitment...
This has nothing to do with what's right or wrong. Hell if you have experience with lvl'ing Q with success, then be my guest. All i'm saying is that people tend to forget the fact that her mid-game is god awful, among one of the worst of all ad carries in the game (yes even ashe is more useful because of her shiny arrow).
So yeah, her mid-game is total crap, but her early game is very strong, because of the way she's designed. She can W -> E -> Ignite -> R and basically 100-0 someone if they aren't very careful, The reasoning for maxing W only gets stronger with the fact that every time she kills someone her W resets, meaning you can do 2 things:
1. Jump into another person, dealing damage with your gap-closer
2. Jump away into safety.
I don't see any logic in lvl'ing a steroid, which is maxed by lvl 9, because you will not have any major items at that point (unless you got seriously fed, but i doubt it ever to be common), where as if you lvl your W, it's only gonna grant you more damage in lane. Like 90% of all her damage in lane comes from magic damage, not from auto-attacks. Like i said earlier in the thread, you wanna hit your sweet-spot which is usually IE+PD. At that point, you will start to melt people who aren't careful, and by the time it really reaches late game, you melt faces.
On April 13 2012 04:39 Hero.SP wrote:
Lol, people are mad for what I said. I actually have read the whole thread, and I can explain why maxing w is suicide.
Arguing that w is better cause reduce cooldowns, mana costs and dmg is overall wrong. You don'u use w in early game cause if you do, means you are escaping or chasing. If you are escaping, means you were attacked, you were on a bad position and your oponent saw that. You don't spam your w, maybe your e and never your q (cause you are bot lane to farm right?). If you can harrass you do it with e. If they harrass you you counter harrass with e. If they don't harrass and you dont need it, fine, you will pushing your lane harder than your oponent, true, that means just 2 things:
1- they will lose exp/gold for farming under tower, not all carries can farm under tower properly.
2 - While you have 2 (and possibly 3) escape methods. Plus if you try to zone, you should be able to buy wards and react properly to aggression. Nobody is saying you should be under their tower. Correct pushing knows how to push a lane so your push is destroyed before the next minion wave comes.
The point of my previous post was cause some1 pointed out that Tristana was a weak lategame carry, and people tended to agree with him (indirectly). Tristana is with Kog Maw, Sivir and Vayne, the strongest lategame champions (AD ranged carries).
Maxing w is pointless, you don't need cooldown, mana cost, or damage advantages. Youa ren't going to be chased that much (your lane), you SHOULDN'T be having mana issues (focus on farm) and really, really, you never should be using w for damage.
But Im okay with the warning. I didn't say anything offensive to anyone, while I was clearly trageted. Good move, sir.
So W -> E -> R along with some heavy cc from say, taric, alistar or leona is chasing? Really you seem to be underestimating how strong her burst actually is in lane. Maxing W only increases your damage, you don't auto-attack in lane to win trades, people will rape you really hard if you try and nuke them down purely with your auto-attacks. How are you gonna kill anything in lane without your W? I gotta find a VOD of that mono ad-carry, you can just see how poor skilling, didn't grant him a kill.
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You'd be far better picking another champ if you want to max q first on trist, the whole point of picking her is for her early game burst. Just makes no sense to ignore it when you could pick a better AD champ for right clicking.
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On April 13 2012 18:57 Goshawk. wrote:
You'd be far better picking another champ if you want to max q first on trist, the whole point of picking her is for her early game burst. Just makes no sense to ignore it when you could pick a better AD champ for right clicking.
I think it makes sense if you just want a stronger mid game and a really strong self peeling long ranged good attack animation AD carry late game.
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imo, trist is a hard champion to master. Strong early and late game, but very weak mid game. Since she is item-dependent, if you don't farm during mid game, you become ineffective. The rocket jump is what separates good Trist from teh bad ones. Knowing when to go for the kill or when to save it for an escape is very important. Bad trist will always use it to jump into team fights, which is the dumbest thing you can do.
I agree that there's no point of maxing Q first, because her AD and AS is weak early game and you rely on your burst combo to do the damage.
I always max W first then Q and E last. In fact, I don't get my first level of Q until I got R. If you intend to use her burst combos, you will not have enough mana to use Q as well. Other than her standard W-> E -> R, she also has a nice mini 2 hit combo in form of the E -> autoattack. Her E resets her autoattack cooldown, so you can immediately fire again after using E. It's good for harassing without using too much mana.
Has anyone use her as an AP carry?
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AP Trist used to be very popular back in the day but she fell off because of all the better AP champs released and the fact that AP Trist's playstyle is very aggressive because your main burst comes from your rocket jump therefore putting you in danger every time you want to go in
Or you can just one shot people with your W-E-R combo which does ridiculous burst and jump out hoping you dont get CC'd down
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I'm interested in trying the "reverse kennen" build mentioned in GD. 2 drings then AD carry items. Anyone have any experience with this?
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It sounds insanely fun, though it has a couple of obvious setbacks like difficult farming, no sustain, all-in on trades, etc., but Janna solves most of those problems and sounding insanely fun warrants a shot anyway.
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How about hybrid pen trist?
I'm gold elo and 6-1 with trist if it means anything
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I don't play a whole lot of AD but have a lot of games with Trist, and I always max W > Q > E . I usually take E at 2 then don't level it after that, the last hitting becomes annoying with more than one point and you need to get points into Q ASAP.
I can see why people would max Q first, but maxing W last makes no sense IMO. You have a great early game (Level 6 kills with sona/ali/taric/blitz np) so you want the early points in W, and going into midgame you need to get more points into Q.
E is nice for harass but as has already been said it has an awful animation and takes too long to cast IMO.
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On June 29 2012 16:19 schmutttt wrote:
I don't play a whole lot of AD but have a lot of games with Trist, and I always max W > Q > E . I usually take E at 2 then don't level it after that, the last hitting becomes annoying with more than one point and you need to get points into Q ASAP.
I can see why people would max Q first, but maxing W last makes no sense IMO. You have a great early game (Level 6 kills with sona/ali/taric/blitz np) so you want the early points in W, and going into midgame you need to get more points into Q.
E is nice for harass but as has already been said it has an awful animation and takes too long to cast IMO.
Q early is terrible since your base AS early on is terrible as well. Max q last (you could take a point at 4, but usually i hold off til 8)
The way I use her E is to autoattack my lane opponent once, then fire the E right after the auto. I usually max W since the cdr and nuking potential is great, but there's other situations where E would be optimal.
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On June 29 2012 01:26 mordek wrote:
I'm interested in trying the "reverse kennen" build mentioned in GD. 2 drings then AD carry items. Anyone have any experience with this?
I probably mentioned that build, which I originally saw Dan Dinh do on Master Yi mid. The problem for Tristana is that carries don't really like starting dorans in a duo lane (twice the enemies to take advantage of your no boots/potions), and AP on trist is strongest the earlier she gets it -- but duo laners want to delay their first back for CS unless they get a kill or get bullied hard.
For what it's worth, Tristana running flat AP quints (one of the most efficient earlygame quints) + Ignite/Ignite mastery + Sona support (Trist can use both the AD/AP from hymn of valor) used to be a viable aggressive/cheese build before earlygame hymn of Valor got nerfed hard. I have no idea how well it would work in a solo lane, but from my Corki mid experience back in the day, casters get chunked super hard by autos -- and the early drings will fool them into not getting cloth armor.
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I get nightmares about Tristana every night.
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On June 30 2012 06:36 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 16:19 schmutttt wrote:
I don't play a whole lot of AD but have a lot of games with Trist, and I always max W > Q > E . I usually take E at 2 then don't level it after that, the last hitting becomes annoying with more than one point and you need to get points into Q ASAP.
I can see why people would max Q first, but maxing W last makes no sense IMO. You have a great early game (Level 6 kills with sona/ali/taric/blitz np) so you want the early points in W, and going into midgame you need to get more points into Q.
E is nice for harass but as has already been said it has an awful animation and takes too long to cast IMO. Q early is terrible since your base AS early on is terrible as well. Max q last (you could take a point at 4, but usually i hold off til 8) The way I use her E is to autoattack my lane opponent once, then fire the E right after the auto. I usually max W since the cdr and nuking potential is great, but there's other situations where E would be optimal.
Q actually adds just as much AS early on as late. I think base AS isn't increased with levels the way sheen gets better with levels.
E doesn't really have a bad animation. It's just tristana's auto range is longer than her E spell range so it's awkward to use at auto range. If you get in range to E, you can auto, E, auto just like teemo does, minimizing the wasted cooldown between autos.
E is still more reliable damage than W in midgame since you don't want to be jumping in on people. But then again the CD reduction on W can give Trist a better uptime on her escape too. And multiple W's is always nice when you have mana.
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I'm learning AD carry and thus want to learn to play all of them for variety.
However, Tristana just puzzles me. I always miss a ton of lasthits because of E, but if I max Q instead of E then my burst suffers. Btw it's false that Q is bad early because you have a low aspd - the base aspd value never changes so it always adds the same amount. If anything, it's BETTER early because it's a higher percentual increase.
I have no idea what to do, also my midgame sucks with her ._. Only after I get to the point where I can Q and right click and instamelt everything and W away and do that again do I feel like I know what I'm doing. Before my PD is finished I just feel entirely useless.
Another thing is that I suicide with W way too often but yeah.. >_> I call it the Corki effect.
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On June 30 2012 08:46 Shikyo wrote:
I'm learning AD carry and thus want to learn to play all of them for variety.
However, Tristana just puzzles me. I always miss a ton of lasthits because of E, but if I max Q instead of E then my burst suffers. Btw it's false that Q is bad early because you have a low aspd - the base aspd value never changes so it always adds the same amount. If anything, it's BETTER early because it's a higher percentual increase.
I have no idea what to do, also my midgame sucks with her ._. Only after I get to the point where I can Q and right click and instamelt everything and W away and do that again do I feel like I know what I'm doing. Before my PD is finished I just feel entirely useless.
Another thing is that I suicide with W way too often but yeah.. >_> I call it the Corki effect.
You just need to play trist more, then you naturally learn how to last hit with her E
Also midgame trist is notoriously bad when not fed. Lategame and early game trist are both beast though
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So uh, 9-1 in ranked with teh trist so far
She the new OP (in solo q)?
Edit: 11-1 as of now
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I do always wonder why trist isn't played more. Sure she gets outshined by a few other AD carries (Graves, maybe Kog and Vayne). But she is so super safe late game with ultra range, a jump, and a peel. With the current meta of "keep AD alive late game and win" you would think this would make her more common. Maybe I am just biased, but I also hate how Graves is played in like 40% of all ranked games: http://www.lolking.net/champions/graves#statistics learn another ADC people!
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On July 27 2012 11:15 YouGotNothin wrote:I do always wonder why trist isn't played more. Sure she gets outshined by a few other AD carries (Graves, maybe Kog and Vayne). But she is so super safe late game with ultra range, a jump, and a peel. With the current meta of "keep AD alive late game and win" you would think this would make her more common. Maybe I am just biased, but I also hate how Graves is played in like 40% of all ranked games: http://www.lolking.net/champions/graves#statistics learn another ADC people!
I feel that Tristana has a distinct disadvantage vs Graves. That may have played a role.
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On July 27 2012 11:15 YouGotNothin wrote:I do always wonder why trist isn't played more. Sure she gets outshined by a few other AD carries (Graves, maybe Kog and Vayne). But she is so super safe late game with ultra range, a jump, and a peel. With the current meta of "keep AD alive late game and win" you would think this would make her more common. Maybe I am just biased, but I also hate how Graves is played in like 40% of all ranked games: http://www.lolking.net/champions/graves#statistics learn another ADC people!
Trist is easily one of the strongest late game AD carries (only Kog and Vayne match up to her imo). She's not played because her mid-game is the weakest out of all the AD carries by far. Once you can no longer burst someone with your WER+auto combo and/or when the enemy team can easily 1 or 2 shot you at close range, Trist becomes 100% reliant on her items to do damage while offering almost nothing from her skills. All other AD carries offer something throughout the whole game; Trist's midgame is just laughably weak. Unless you can get really fed off of her strong early game and/or your team can afford to have a weak AD carry in the mid game, she's just not as good as other AD carries.
Graves is played a ton because he's the most versatile. Strong aoe nuke, good sustained damage w/ a strong steroid that also doubles as a mobility spell, good utility with smoke, and naturally tankier than other AD carries due to passive.
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On July 27 2012 11:24 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2012 11:15 YouGotNothin wrote:I do always wonder why trist isn't played more. Sure she gets outshined by a few other AD carries (Graves, maybe Kog and Vayne). But she is so super safe late game with ultra range, a jump, and a peel. With the current meta of "keep AD alive late game and win" you would think this would make her more common. Maybe I am just biased, but I also hate how Graves is played in like 40% of all ranked games: http://www.lolking.net/champions/graves#statistics learn another ADC people! I feel that Tristana has a distinct disadvantage vs Graves. That may have played a role.
You just harass him with your superior range and auto->e if he tries to poke with q. He'll lose every trade. If he overextends and blows his CD's (ie dash->q) you just all-in him. Heal/ignite almost guarantees you will win an all-in scenario (flash is cool too).
I haven't lost lane as trist yet, even when rushing phage for teh lulz. Get fed earlygame so you can skip to lategame.
Edit: am up for some 1v1 tommorrow
2nd edit: graves is noob friendly (forgiving). That is why he is picked often by people like Destiny. Trist's lack of free resists and burst damage that requires gap closing is a bit less forgiving if misused. Also graves smoke lol
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to avoid this mid-game slump I almost always play trist with my friend supporting in a duo queue. He goes some kind of aggressive support like blitz or alistar and I really can't help but get fed. You get huge opportunities at level 2 and 6 to basically instakill their adc. My personal favorite support with trist is Nautilus, that shit is legit, try it, seriously.
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Yea if you can get lots of early kills or get far enough ahead of the enemy AD carry you can offset Trist's weak midgame. The problem is that in high level play, getting that ahead in lane isn't a reliable strategy, hence Trist's low popularity in competitive play. If AD carry solo lanes ever become the norm again I can definitely see Trist bouncing back in popularity since her early game laning is so strong.
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^mid trist is real terror
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I think tristana is a lot stronger after the recent buff. Strangely I haven't been having as many mana issues. That little decrease in mana cost has been the difference in me having one more or one less ability to get a kill or die. Tristana does have more range than she used to as well.
I was maxing E today with a sona against graves taric. I didn't want to max W because graves and taric are bursty so there is less opportunity to jump in. In no small part, thanks to sona we were able to sustain and outpoke taric graves. It did help that taric just seemed to spam his stun on cooldown.
I maxed E because most supports expect tristana to have burst. It feels so weak in the midgame compared to Q though.
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E + 1 or 2 auto's is almost like a real poke now, still have no idea what an optimal skill order is since nothing scales with ad and Q is such a powerful steroid, but it's a legit QoL improvement
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I think the QoL changes on her E didn't change that much. Her range is still abysmally short for trading, because most other ADCs have at least one skill that has longer reach than her auto range (e.g. Ashe W, Cait Q, etc.). She still needs to W in to trade, I feel.
It did give her an upper hand against some specific match ups though. She can trade with Vayne a lot easier. She can probably do the same to MF.
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On October 31 2012 13:46 chalice wrote:
E + 1 or 2 auto's is almost like a real poke now, still have no idea what an optimal skill order is since nothing scales with ad and Q is such a powerful steroid, but it's a legit QoL improvement
I've seen people use things such as W/E alternating(getting r obv) when e or w is maxed, ignore the one you didnt max and go straight for Q max right after.
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On October 31 2012 15:12 Sufficiency wrote:
I think the QoL changes on her E didn't change that much. Her range is still abysmally short for trading, because most other ADCs have at least one skill that has longer reach than her auto range (e.g. Ashe W, Cait Q, etc.). She still needs to W in to trade, I feel.
It did give her an upper hand against some specific match ups though. She can trade with Vayne a lot easier. She can probably do the same to MF.
yeah against cait and ashe it really doesn't do much, but against the shorter attack range ADs it lets you poke a bit to set up kills post 6 nicely
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Tristana was my first try at AD carry (because i unlocked her with some facebook thing) and i still really like her. 90% of the time i go bottom lane (AD or support) and it was nice to see lots of tristana these past few days....
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i dont know.. in my oppinion she is a terribly designed hero. Her skills just dont have any synergies, I dont know what the designer were thinking when creating her.
Her passive... yeah well. That she doesnt have the additional range from the get go makes her less viable against ad carries who outrange her.
Q is a sick steroid, so you wanna play her as adc. But then she offers no additional damage-on-hit like Varus, twitch or mf which sucks.
W is a nice gap closer/escape spell. But when to use it? On a solo lane you would have to instakill with the said w-e-r-q-ignite combo and even then you would still have to outburst the opponent which is not easy against someone with a hard cc like cho or an escape spell like ez. In team fights it's totally useless because you got the R to peel of bruisers. And it scales with AP, so it doesnt get any better late game.
E active is a mediocre nuke which also scales with AP, so if you play her as an adc it doesnt get better. The reduced healing is nice, but other adc like varus offer that as well.
E passive is a nice farming spell which might have a bit of an effect in team fights as well (although I'm sure its better to attack the heros directly t.t). But that you cant turn it off (like Cho's E) makes last hitting much harder. Combine that with her abysmal base damage and you have an adc which makes it really hard to last hit properly.
And R is also an AP scaling damage spell. Nice to peel off bruisers or for the early game combo, but the usefulness is also very limited compared to say Ashes arrow/dravens, ezreals ulti.
So, you have a squishy, low ranged adc with ridiculous low base damage, a sick steroid but not a single ad scaling spell, an initation spell thats basically just an escape tool, and an ultimate that you use to peel of bruisers. Who designes something like that?
If her E passive would give her bonus armor/health per minion kill for a short duration so you can 1on1 better, if one of her spells would scale with AD as well as AP (like sivirs Q), if the w had a weak cc instead of a slow then she would certainly be more viable. As it is, she is just terrible designed and offers nothing but the Q and auto attack damage.
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I think her kit is very well-designed, actually.
It goes together to make her strong early and late, but useless midgame, which is a good powercurve for an adc toi have.
You bring up things like that the W AP scaling makes it useless lategame, which is a nonsensical point, because you don't WANT to use it for damage, but for positioning by then.
etcetc
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I think this has been talked about before a lot. I think it's just that when looking at champ design today, you would never have something like this. There doesn't seem to be much synergy between her spells at all even though it comes together in the end by nature of burst transitioning into safety. I don't know if this would mean she's terribly designed or extremely well designed, but she is fairly unique.
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Terribly designed, just how? She has a knockback, a jump, an attack speed steroid, a dot which is incredibly strong versus sustain-bruisers. The only sad part about tristana is that she sucks so badly during mid-game, but just play her with nunu. It's like nunu/cait just better.
Also Djin, how can u compare her to 3 ADC's without an escape spell (twitch has stealth, but it's not the same).
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I wouldn't think putting an AD ratio on her E and/or R would be too bad of an idea - the damage on them is pretty much ignorable late game currently. At some point you actively stop wanting to ever cast E except as a healing debuff because it's a DPS loss - even though it's outside the attack speed animation.
Other than that, I don't see how a kit which has +Range passive (best ADC passive in the game, arguably), Self-Peel, Repositioning, a straight up point-and-click nuke which autocancels rather well, and an AS steroid amounts to "Terrible Synergy"
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The thing is if you add an AD ratio to E/R you're forced to take power away from other parts of the kit, like her range, steroid, or her W repositioning. AD scaling abilities are strongest mid, not late, especially for an ADC who must build AS/crit. So in adding AD ratios you'd be dialing back her late-game and/or early game in favor of mid-game. I don't see why that's necessary unless her midgame becomes completely unplayable.
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Just make her E a toogle and she will be top ad imo
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I think people were talking about making E have her next auto-attack do the E spell (sorry I don't know how to explain that better), which would make it much easier to cast during the late game. That alone seems fine.
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On January 04 2013 04:59 Dark_Chill wrote:
I think people were talking about making E have her next auto-attack do the E spell (sorry I don't know how to explain that better), which would make it much easier to cast during the late game. That alone seems fine.
Didn't they buff her E so that its range adjusts to her AA range? This makes it pretty easy to cast in late game. And I have no idea why they dont make her E a toggle. I must say though I learned adc and how to last hit on Trist with her E passive so now last hitting with other adc's always seems weird to me, lol.
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On January 04 2013 01:52 Sponkz wrote:
Terribly designed, just how? She has a knockback, a jump, an attack speed steroid, a dot which is incredibly strong versus sustain-bruisers. The only sad part about tristana is that she sucks so badly during mid-game, but just play her with nunu. It's like nunu/cait just better.
Also Djin, how can u compare her to 3 ADC's without an escape spell (twitch has stealth, but it's not the same).
Puh I wanted to write a long text, comparing her with heros like venge in Dota (dmg aura, disable -> useful throughout the game; ultimate: sacrifice urself for the greater good -> great support hero), but.. i dont know. Afaic all other adc offer some sort of scaling, like Kog maws w. Dmg based on max health? hey, better get AS!
Tris has a sick steroid? Hey, better get AD! That's good, but she is just so item dependent and doesnt offer anything besides Q and auto attacks, and I think this is just too limited. Corki/kog maw have great pokes, ez/draven global AOE ultis, ashe her arrow, mf has a sick AOE ulti, sivir an as/ms team buff. Many of them have passives that increase the dmg/ms/as. They all have some sort of ad scaling (except kog max I think, but he has his W).
As was written before, there is no midgame. There is no scaling. There is just Q and auto attack. W Q are to peel off/disengage, E is.. yeah well. To me that sounds like terrible design.
And then you have the problem that she doesnt have any harrass because her range (550) is mediocre but will always be less then sivirs q, ashes w, ezreals spells, graves spells, even with the passive.
She feels a bit like Yi. Squishy(low health gain) melee auto attacker with an AD non scaling passive, AP scaling Q that doesnt get you back to where you stood (so its not a simple multi damage nuke) but to where the enemy was standing when you casted it(!), AP scaling channeling W sustain, AD non scaling E, and an MS/AS Ulti which grants immunity to slows and gives him a reset when killing. I mean what the fuck? Obviously you are supposed to play him as an AD melee hero that can use his Q as a gap closer but then why are non of his skills AD scaling? Why is Q AP scaling while E is non scaling? That just doesnt make any sense.
But maybe its just me.... I dont know. 
On January 04 2013 02:24 phyvo wrote:
The thing is if you add an AD ratio to E/R you're forced to take power away from other parts of the kit, like her range, steroid, or her W repositioning. AD scaling abilities are strongest mid, not late, especially for an ADC who must build AS/crit. So in adding AD ratios you'd be dialing back her late-game and/or early game in favor of mid-game. I don't see why that's necessary unless her midgame becomes completely unplayable.
A different power curve is abolutely ok, having 5/6 item late game heros in the game is great. But I dont see why would play Tris if you can play kog maw, vayne or twitch. Imo they all carry harder, but maybe thats just me
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I don't think Tristana has a shitty mid game at all if you have Q maxed by the time of the first mid game fight near dragon/jungle. She makes up the bonus damage she would have gotten on E pretty fast.
Max Q is basically 4(.658*.9*7=4.15) free attacks over 7 seconds. I don't think it counts as a reset or starts working as soon as she presses Q(so I can't say it's more than 4). Her E is only 230 damage assuming she doesn't kill someone and have that damage splash to another target. So the breakeven point is ~ 230/4 ~60 damage. I'm obviously ignoring the difference between magic and physical damage but she's not bad mid game with just ~45 bonus damage and a maxed Q.
At level 9, Tristana with AD runes, 2 doran's and a pickax, does 126 damage per shot so max Q is (4*126-230)=270 more damage than max E assuming you're constantly shooting.
It's just hard to stand and shoot for 7 seconds in laning phase.
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The issue with her midgame is that she has 0 AD scaling spells.
Her spells remain at base damage for the entire game. She needs that IE and PD to be worth a damn. I used to go IE green pot but thats not possible anymore.
The reason you max E is because WEigniteR with autos is a huge amount of burst in lane. If you are able to get kills then you can potentially skip your weaker midgame entirely and come to the first fight with IE Zeal/PD etc. However I would say if you are behind in lane, maxing Q is better so you at least have more sustain damage.
I generally level EWEWERQEQ and then max Q out. W at level 1 if invading or if invaded.
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Oh? I'd have done something like WEWEWR then R>W>Q>E, from reading her kit and stuff. Is it to be able to harass with E (W scales better in base damage for the all-in, and lowered cooldown allows more leeway)?
I'm not a Trist player at all but I was wondering, since I know a Trist main than always maxes Q last (as in 1 point at 8 or something then leave it till the end), how she can adapt stuff.
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On January 04 2013 12:04 Alaric wrote:
Oh? I'd have done something like WEWEWR then R>W>Q>E, from reading her kit and stuff. Is it to be able to harass with E (W scales better in base damage for the all-in, and lowered cooldown allows more leeway)?
I'm not a Trist player at all but I was wondering, since I know a Trist main than always maxes Q last (as in 1 point at 8 or something then leave it till the end), how she can adapt stuff.
W is what all the guides do. It's not wrong. Just be aware that W is more of an all in skill and you won't be able to use it for repositioning or damage in as many cases as you want.
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On January 04 2013 10:48 Bladeorade wrote:
The issue with her midgame is that she has 0 AD scaling spells.
Her spells remain at base damage for the entire game. She needs that IE and PD to be worth a damn. I used to go IE green pot but thats not possible anymore.
The key is to dominate your lane and snowball hard so you can skip over the midgame as much as possible. It also helps if your team is smart and understands the need to delay teamfights until you finish IE.
On January 04 2013 10:48 Bladeorade wrote:
The reason you max E is because WEigniteR with autos is a huge amount of burst in lane. If you are able to get kills then you can potentially skip your weaker midgame entirely and come to the first fight with IE Zeal/PD etc. However I would say if you are behind in lane, maxing Q is better so you at least have more sustain damage.
I generally level EWEWERQEQ and then max Q out. W at level 1 if invading or if invaded.
Points in E after the 1st aren't actually that useful, since each additional point only increases the E damage by 30. Therefore, Q is much better for all-ins, and E only really benefits you if you're playing a poke game in lane against certain champs. Additional points in E are also problematic because they further increase your unintentional lane pushing.
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On January 04 2013 12:04 Alaric wrote:
Oh? I'd have done something like WEWEWR then R>W>Q>E, from reading her kit and stuff. Is it to be able to harass with E (W scales better in base damage for the all-in, and lowered cooldown allows more leeway)?
I'm not a Trist player at all but I was wondering, since I know a Trist main than always maxes Q last (as in 1 point at 8 or something then leave it till the end), how she can adapt stuff.
As a Trist main, I prefer EWWQWR then R>W>Q>E. This gives you the maximum damage possible in the early game, which is essential since you're looking to exploit your immense burst for all-in kills at 2 and 6, and because once you jump in you're basically committed and can only win the trade by forcing them to run/die before you do. An early point in Q also means less unintentional lane pushing from E splash, and the ability to push your lane hard in order to reset lane or before pooling. It's more mana-intensive on an already mana-intensive champ, though, so I recommend taking 21/0/9 for Meditation so you can sustain it.
On January 04 2013 12:08 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 12:04 Alaric wrote:
Oh? I'd have done something like WEWEWR then R>W>Q>E, from reading her kit and stuff. Is it to be able to harass with E (W scales better in base damage for the all-in, and lowered cooldown allows more leeway)?
I'm not a Trist player at all but I was wondering, since I know a Trist main than always maxes Q last (as in 1 point at 8 or something then leave it till the end), how she can adapt stuff. W is what all the guides do. It's not wrong. Just be aware that W is more of an all in skill and you won't be able to use it for repositioning or damage in as many cases as you want.
The correct skill to start with is always E. At level 1 it does more damage than W, forces the opponent to stand away from their minion line, and owns healing effects. Auto->E->Auto chips off a sizable amount of health before the second wave, and landing it allows you to easily finish with Trist's terrifying W->Auto->E->Ignite->Auto the second you hit level 2. The escape that W provides is also negligible at level 1, since you will almost never be ganked so early.
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I would never get more then 2 points in E bevore i maxed the other spells. As sunprince has already set, you just get pushing power you usually don't want. I really hate the fact, that trists kit makes it so hard to freeze a lane. Especially against champs like graves or ez who have no problems what so ever to farm minions under tower. As i am scared as fuck, i always start W, and therefor can't kill anything before 6. I probably should stop doing that. Another point for not maxing E is the manacost. There is no other ad that is oom so often when he needs to do sth like trist.
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Getting 2 points in E isn't the worst of ideas, it helps alot with your burst and makes your lvl 3 quite strong. While i do agree that she's a terrible pushing machine with 2 points in E, what it offers is lane is too good to pass up.
The whole debate on whether or not she needs AD ratios is a pointless discussion, cus it will mean a total re-work for Tristana, something that she doesn't need. She's one of the oldest champions and if there was something wrong with her kit, i'm more than certain RIOT would have taken actions by now.
As more people are stating, her mid-game is terrible and doing a Q-max by lvl 9 will only weaken her early game, where she's arguably one of the strongest of all ADC's because of her kit that allows her to burst. The only downside is that from the point where u got max rank in W, she stops scaling from pure burst, and the only way to solve it is getting items and levels.
Recently i've been playing Nunu/Tristana and it solves alot of the weaknesses for her. The steroid from Blood Boil makes her so much stronger coming out of laning phase, the only real issue is that it can be somewhat her to extend a lead in the early phases of laning due to Nunu not having a hard initiation. But while her laning phase might be abit weaker with nunu, she makes up for it as soon as she gets her first major item. The damage is completely nuts, and if you can CS properly (and get a kill or two) you can sit on a IE+Rank 5 Blood Boil at 18-20 min you should have no trouble killing stuff.
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(WE)EQWR then max W, then level Q. Leave E at level 2 until you have to level it (15, 17, 18).
Wether you start W or E depends heavily. W is by and far better if you plan to invade, or have reason to think you will get invaded.
E start is decent in lane, but it pushes pretty hard if you level it from the start.
I sometimes even wait with leveling it at lvl2 for a while, so I won't push too much (can also screw up lasthits).
But as I said, it depends a lot on everything. imo it's mostly preference and both are viable.
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On January 04 2013 21:35 Sponkz wrote:
Getting 2 points in E isn't the worst of ideas, it helps alot with your burst and makes your lvl 3 quite strong. While i do agree that she's a terrible pushing machine with 2 points in E, what it offers is lane is too good to pass up.
It offers +30 damage to a skill that already deals 110 damage + 50% heal reduction. At best, it's a marginal benefit, (especially when compared to +45 damage that you forgo from going EWW instead of EWE) that is outweighed by the lane pushing problem.
On January 04 2013 21:35 Sponkz wrote:
The whole debate on whether or not she needs AD ratios is a pointless discussion, cus it will mean a total re-work for Tristana, something that she doesn't need. She's one of the oldest champions and if there was something wrong with her kit, i'm more than certain RIOT would have taken actions by now.
Yeah, Trist was designed before AD ratios were implemented and was balanced around it. If there's anything that needs to change it's fixing the buggy nature of her rocket jump.
On January 04 2013 21:35 Sponkz wrote:
As more people are stating, her mid-game is terrible and doing a Q-max by lvl 9 will only weaken her early game, where she's arguably one of the strongest of all ADC's because of her kit that allows her to burst. The only downside is that from the point where u got max rank in W, she stops scaling from pure burst, and the only way to solve it is getting items and levels.
AD Trist actually stops scaling effectively from burst after level 6. Trist's spells have very high base damage from their first points but scale poorly without AP, which allows Ez/Graves/Corki/Vayne to quickly outpace her. On top of that, the suicidal nature of her combo means that you can't really afford to use it in teamfights except when the kill/assist is guaranteed, which shortens the viability window for burst even further.
On January 04 2013 21:35 Sponkz wrote:
Recently i've been playing Nunu/Tristana and it solves alot of the weaknesses for her. The steroid from Blood Boil makes her so much stronger coming out of laning phase, the only real issue is that it can be somewhat her to extend a lead in the early phases of laning due to Nunu not having a hard initiation. But while her laning phase might be abit weaker with nunu, she makes up for it as soon as she gets her first major item. The damage is completely nuts, and if you can CS properly (and get a kill or two) you can sit on a IE+Rank 5 Blood Boil at 18-20 min you should have no trouble killing stuff.
You shouldn't really have trouble killing stuff as long as you get IE in a timely manner (I aim for the 16 minute mark), with or without Blood Boil. Trist's ideal laning partner is Alistar, because he enables her to get more kills/dominate the lane/snowball harder, while also sustaining her and keeping her safe. The extra money you get because of this allows you to skip over the midgame by getting you to IE quickly.
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1. It's incredibly risky to jump in early on, and it's alot more safe to do a simple auto -> E on your opponent instead of using WE.
2. Fuck that jump, jumping into the wall sucks!
3. Imo she stops scaling past 9, because that's when you got your W maxed, and past lvl 8 you stop skilling E and start skilling your Q instead.
4. While i do agree that Alistar/Trist is a strong lane, what it offers past lane is merely protection for trist, while nunu can provide peeling with his Ice Blast and Absolute Zero on top of providing a 1700 gold attack speed steroid, something Tristana really needs when she finish her IE.
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If you're gonna play trist you need to all in in your lane or you'll lose it. No way can you "outharass" any ad champion by freely walking up to them and using your e. I also agree with taking e first. Normally you aren't going to get all in'd at level 1 and need an escape, and e let's you push so you get level 2 before them and you can maybe set up a level 2 all in.
Problem with trist in the mid game is that you don't have any burst, no range, and you can't w into people anymore unless its a sure kill. Look at other great mid game ad carries like graves, MF, and ezreal who all have high sources of damage besides just autoing. Sure, trist has "okay" escapes. I say okay because her jump really isn't all that great compared to say ezreal's. But you just don't have the burst dmg past level 8 or so.
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Tristana is my go-to champion when I want to crush a lane so badly their team gets demoralized so they end up not really playing as a team. The thing that annoys me are people that actually know how to play the game though, you simply cannot crush them hard enough. I have a 9W/2L on her at 1800, and 100% w/r at 1400. She's pretty unbeatable in lane. On my higher rated account though I have to admit I got carried HARD through the mid game. Also, banning champions that have global ultimates is a must. The only way you can get ahead on Tristana is diving a lot, going all in. So try banning Shen. Another dedicated ban is Malphite. As useless as Tristana is in midgame, Malphite will make you seem useless even if you get out of lane with an IE and PD.
Now to why I find Tristana to be so succesful is because she's a yordle. That means she's a bit underplayed and most of the players do not know her true power. They all play carelessly, feeling they MUST get every cs, and that ends up costing them. They needlessly eat 'E's all the time, they get out of position not knowing Tristana can chunk 3-400 out of their hp at level 3 easily ( ignite included) and then end up feeding.
I find MF/Graves/Taric/Draven to be Tristana's counters in bottom lane.
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Anyone ever seen a full AP trist? I laughed when I first saw it yesterday, but holy shit, she was seriously like a jumping annie - AMAZING burst. She had a bad team with her too but she ended up carrying them on her back and won it. No one had ever seen anything like it - jump in, kill full hp squishy in less than a second, jump out. She went a really early DFG.
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What do you build against an AD that rushes brutalizer? Cait just did it to me and her spells and autos really hurt. (still won lane cuz blitz op) I don't want Doran's shield because it only gives 5 armor now. The passive is nice but Doran's blade's is nice too.
I want something that gives armor. Because it's probable Cait has arpen reds and quints. 35 armor pen is too much early on. But I don't want to have to sell the item back later. Do I suck it up and just get a chain mail and carry it with me the rest of the game? Maybe turn it into a GA, Ohmwrecker, Ancient Golem, Atmas? Because I don't want to have no armor items but I also don't want to have to sell the item back. Yeah I shoulda gotten chain vest or a ninja tabi.
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On January 04 2013 04:59 Dark_Chill wrote:
I think people were talking about making E have her next auto-attack do the E spell (sorry I don't know how to explain that better), which would make it much easier to cast during the late game. That alone seems fine.
I drooled thinking about the possibility that her E works also as an auto reset
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On January 16 2013 13:36 obesechicken13 wrote:
What do you build against an AD that rushes brutalizer? Cait just did it to me and her spells and autos really hurt. (still won lane cuz blitz op) I don't want Doran's shield because it only gives 5 armor now. The passive is nice but Doran's blade's is nice too.
I want something that gives armor. Because it's probable Cait has arpen reds and quints. 35 armor pen is too much early on. But I don't want to have to sell the item back later. Do I suck it up and just get a chain mail and carry it with me the rest of the game? Maybe turn it into a GA, Ohmwrecker, Ancient Golem, Atmas? Because I don't want to have no armor items but I also don't want to have to sell the item back. Yeah I shoulda gotten chain vest or a ninja tabi.
As Tristana? Ignore the Brutalizer and build offensively as usual.
Assuming relative level/gold parity, this shouldn't be a problem at all, since you can trade much harder with your early game burst. By the time Cait finishes Brutalizer, you'll have Vamp Scepter, which will allow you to both trade basic attacks and easily win all-ins. That's not even taking into account the face that you can dodge/mitigate her Q, or that you should actually be ahead after you successfully all-in at 2 and 6.
Armor pen counters armor, so I have no idea why you would want to play into it by building armor.
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On January 22 2013 16:27 sunprince wrote:
Armor pen counters armor, so I have no idea why you would want to play into it by building armor.
No it doesn't. Flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs. low armor targets.
It's funny cause you're still right that he should just build normally, but your conclusion is just flat out wrong.
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On January 22 2013 16:58 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 16:27 sunprince wrote:
Armor pen counters armor, so I have no idea why you would want to play into it by building armor. No it doesn't. Flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs. low armor targets. It's funny cause you're still right that he should just build normally, but your conclusion is just flat out wrong.
While flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs low armor targets, it's also least effective if the opponent is not relying on armor in their strategy, such as if their plan is simply to kill you faster or by outsustaining you via lifesteal.
Not to mention that Brutalizer builds into BC, which makes armor an even worse idea due to the percentage based armor shred.
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On January 23 2013 09:03 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2013 16:58 Mogwai wrote:On January 22 2013 16:27 sunprince wrote:
Armor pen counters armor, so I have no idea why you would want to play into it by building armor. No it doesn't. Flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs. low armor targets. It's funny cause you're still right that he should just build normally, but your conclusion is just flat out wrong. While flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs low armor targets, it's also least effective if the opponent is not relying on armor in their strategy, such as if their plan is simply to kill you faster or by outsustaining you via lifesteal.
that's just not how effectiveness works and I really have no idea how to explain that to you if that's your line of thinking. plain and simple, if your goal is to do damage and your opponent has low armor, flat armor penetration outperforms damage.
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It's cool. I think I'd just build ninja tabis. That Cait hurt
I wish there were an easy way to tell if your opponent started armor pen runes instead of AD runes or AS runes. AD runes are probably similar to arpen runes for damage but arpen seems easier to counter.
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On January 23 2013 11:04 obesechicken13 wrote:It's cool. I think I'd just build ninja tabis. That Cait hurt I wish there were an easy way to tell if your opponent started armor pen runes instead of AD runes or AS runes. AD runes are probably similar to arpen runes for damage but arpen seems easier to counter.
You can just click on them at lvl1 and see what runes/masteries they took.
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On January 23 2013 11:16 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 11:04 obesechicken13 wrote:It's cool. I think I'd just build ninja tabis. That Cait hurt I wish there were an easy way to tell if your opponent started armor pen runes instead of AD runes or AS runes. AD runes are probably similar to arpen runes for damage but arpen seems easier to counter. You can just click on them at lvl1 and see what runes/masteries they took.
It doesn't show their runes. You can guess that most AD's start with 45-55 dmg so since AD reds give 8 dmg you can figure out if your opponent went AD reds. You can guess if they went Aspd since most carries start with +-.67 aspd and the ~12%? is more than enough to give that away, but you can't tell if someone has arpen runes or crit and health regen runes. Either way it's more trouble than it should be.
Before you ask who runs crit red runes I do :/
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?
Look, you click on the hero, hover your mouse over their stats. It shows their base stat and their additional stats from runes/masteries/items separately. Just by looking at this you can EASILY figure out most of their runes/masteries setup on AD carries because their rune setups are very standardized. Figuring out whether or not they took arpen or ad marks is like the easiest thing to do because you can figure it out by just hovering your mouse over their AD. Is it +18/19? Then you can know for a fact that they took flat AD marks, quints, and mastery. Is it +10? Then you know for a fact that they took AD quints and the flat AD mastery but didn't take AD marks. There are very few options left, and 99% of the time it's going to be arpen. It is +0 or +3? Then it's most likely that they took arpen marks and quints (Aphromoo's Draven specs in S2, for example). Like sure, there can be a few ambiguities. Like they COULD have taken crit runes instead of arpen if they're not taking AD, but it's rare so you can safely assume that they took arpen. If they don't have mr or aren't fully speccing mr on their glyphs, it could be mregen or cdr or crit, etc. Usually you can't really be certain about the exact way they spread their masteries and runes around, but you can get a large chunk of it down just by hovering your mouse over their stats for like 2 seconds.
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On January 23 2013 09:35 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 09:03 sunprince wrote:On January 22 2013 16:58 Mogwai wrote:On January 22 2013 16:27 sunprince wrote:
Armor pen counters armor, so I have no idea why you would want to play into it by building armor. No it doesn't. Flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs. low armor targets. It's funny cause you're still right that he should just build normally, but your conclusion is just flat out wrong. While flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs low armor targets, it's also least effective if the opponent is not relying on armor in their strategy, such as if their plan is simply to kill you faster or by outsustaining you via lifesteal. that's just not how effectiveness works and I really have no idea how to explain that to you if that's your line of thinking. plain and simple, if your goal is to do damage and your opponent has low armor, flat armor penetration outperforms damage.
Perhaps this will make it more clear:
Use a simulator like Ask Mr. Robot. Test out different builds against a build that has flat penetration. Observe how building armor is not a cost-effective means to counter an armor pen build.
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On January 23 2013 14:14 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2013 09:35 Mogwai wrote:On January 23 2013 09:03 sunprince wrote:On January 22 2013 16:58 Mogwai wrote:On January 22 2013 16:27 sunprince wrote:
Armor pen counters armor, so I have no idea why you would want to play into it by building armor. No it doesn't. Flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs. low armor targets. It's funny cause you're still right that he should just build normally, but your conclusion is just flat out wrong. While flat armor pen is at it's most effective vs low armor targets, it's also least effective if the opponent is not relying on armor in their strategy, such as if their plan is simply to kill you faster or by outsustaining you via lifesteal. that's just not how effectiveness works and I really have no idea how to explain that to you if that's your line of thinking. plain and simple, if your goal is to do damage and your opponent has low armor, flat armor penetration outperforms damage. Perhaps this will make it more clear: Use a simulator like Ask Mr. Robot. Test out different builds against a build that has flat penetration. Observe how building armor is not a cost-effective means to counter an armor pen build.
That's a graph...
Not sure what you're trying to say about it as it's a horrible way to convey a point. It's like giving a guy a book and saying "this proves I'm right" without specifying a page to look at.
You agreed that armor pen is better vs low armor targets. Brutalizer is 10 armor pen. A single cloth armor is 15.
Tristana at level 9 has 15(base)+3(gain_per_level)*9(level)+12(runes)=54 armor
I think armor pen values have been nerfed on runes. There's 19 from runes. And brutalizer has 10 armor pen. 29 armor pen.
54-29=25 armor
So Caitlyn with brutalizer will do approximately (100+54)/(100+25)=23% more damage to you if you have no armor due to the penetration.
If you have a ninja tabi then caitlyn deals approximately (100+25)/(100+25+25(tabi)) 83% of the physical damage she would to you if you had serks. Doesn't include ninja tabi passive or Cait's magic damage.
You have the choice between ninja tabi and berserker's greaves.
At level 9 the greaves give you +20% atk spd. Tristana's natural attack speed is .658*(1+.03*9)=.84
Her attack speed with greaves is .658*(1+.03*9+.2)=.97
You deal .97/.84=15% more auto damage to Cait from that Serks.
Your Q reduces that amount and if you have spells (which stana does) that attack speed is worth less.
Tabi costs 100 gold more but there is no way that ninja tabi will do worse than a damage item against an armor penetration stacker. It's definitely closer than I thought though. Wow Riot's really screwing over tanks...
That attack speed is going to become more desireable in most late game fights with the exception of ones where the two AD's duel as well.
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So, is the little blue yordle experiencing a renaissance right now? Saw her being played by some Asian teams today (TPA, Xenics) and she did quite well.
What I actually don't like about her was the midgame where you needed IE + PD to deal serious damage instead of only a BT that other ADs require to have some impact (especially Graves, that guy only needs a fully stacked BD to melt people during midgame).
I saw Blade of the ruind King + Statikk Shiv builds on her, maybe that's how to get rid of that problem?
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I don't really find having to go IE first a real disadvantage (if it isn't a professional game, anyways). It's not all that different from Caitlyn in my mind- yes you can go Bloodthirster as Cait, but you become much more oppressive by getting the IE first. Tris just scales so well off of crit it' is ridiculous- she's pretty much the only ADC that I situationally go two phantom dancers over a defensive item, depending on team comps.
I have a hard time imagining the current BotRK and Statikk Shiv being that great on her. Mid-game might be marginally better, but probably at the cost of a monster late game. Though the active could make her even more slippery against certain team comps. :>
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DoranBlade => Bilgewater on her is really good so the buildup into BoTRK is pretty decent o her. Shiv is just a nice item in general for ADC's. I rarely find room to build PD's any more let alone two of them in a single game. And I used to build racecar Ashe S2 with five PD's and an IE. (assuming I'm massively farmed out and can't lose the game of course)
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I don't really think Shiv and BOTRK combine well, tbh.
I built BOTRK/PD and I just didn't feel like I did significant damage, but I was behind that game. Even when I had 3 items, I couldnt kill shit though. Seems like Tristana is just too reliant on not falling behind :/
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So after reading this post I've tried a game (ranked ofc) with Trist, I had a Zyra support and we got shat on by a Kog/Nami comp (they were VERY good tho, Kog was last hitting extremely well while harassing us all the time, he had 2x my cs).
But after some teamfights I got back in the game (picked up a nice quadra after being down 1-4 sth like that). I feel like grabbing a Youmuu after IE helps Trist midgame alot, as combined with your Q and attack speed quints you have as much attack speed than a adc with botrk and a attack speed item. It gives damage, crit chances, and arpen which in my opinion make up for her weak midgame.
I think going PD after IE+Youmuu is good if you're ahead because you may lack some damages (the high crit %age you have with these 3 items, around 70% iirc, can make up for it if you're lucky enough) that would be useful if you're behind like I was (but I'm stubborn and it paid off as I got a quadra kill to get back in the game).
Any thought on this ?
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On July 08 2014 18:45 Sakray wrote:So after reading this post I've tried a game (ranked ofc) with Trist, I had a Zyra support and we got shat on by a Kog/Nami comp (they were VERY good tho, Kog was last hitting extremely well while harassing us all the time, he had 2x my cs). But after some teamfights I got back in the game (picked up a nice quadra after being down 1-4 sth like that). I feel like grabbing a Youmuu after IE helps Trist midgame alot, as combined with your Q and attack speed quints you have as much attack speed than a adc with botrk and a attack speed item. It gives damage, crit chances, and arpen which in my opinion make up for her weak midgame. I think going PD after IE+Youmuu is good if you're ahead because you may lack some damages (the high crit %age you have with these 3 items, around 70% iirc, can make up for it if you're lucky enough) that would be useful if you're behind like I was (but I'm stubborn and it paid off as I got a quadra kill to get back in the game). Any thought on this ?
I think 6s is too short to rely on as an ADC, and you don't want to have to buy ghostblade because it isn't as much dps towards moderately tanky targets even though it gives many of the correct stats.
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On July 08 2014 21:00 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 18:45 Sakray wrote:So after reading this post I've tried a game (ranked ofc) with Trist, I had a Zyra support and we got shat on by a Kog/Nami comp (they were VERY good tho, Kog was last hitting extremely well while harassing us all the time, he had 2x my cs). But after some teamfights I got back in the game (picked up a nice quadra after being down 1-4 sth like that). I feel like grabbing a Youmuu after IE helps Trist midgame alot, as combined with your Q and attack speed quints you have as much attack speed than a adc with botrk and a attack speed item. It gives damage, crit chances, and arpen which in my opinion make up for her weak midgame. I think going PD after IE+Youmuu is good if you're ahead because you may lack some damages (the high crit %age you have with these 3 items, around 70% iirc, can make up for it if you're lucky enough) that would be useful if you're behind like I was (but I'm stubborn and it paid off as I got a quadra kill to get back in the game). Any thought on this ? I think 6s is too short to rely on as an ADC, and you don't want to have to buy ghostblade because it isn't as much dps towards moderately tanky targets even though it gives many of the correct stats.
From my experience in Gold I soloQ, most of the time midgame is little skirmishies and not that many big 5v5 teamfights, so using Youmuu's active to pick one target or chunk it down really fast might give the advantage in a fight, don't you think ?
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On July 08 2014 21:17 Sakray wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 21:00 obesechicken13 wrote:On July 08 2014 18:45 Sakray wrote:So after reading this post I've tried a game (ranked ofc) with Trist, I had a Zyra support and we got shat on by a Kog/Nami comp (they were VERY good tho, Kog was last hitting extremely well while harassing us all the time, he had 2x my cs). But after some teamfights I got back in the game (picked up a nice quadra after being down 1-4 sth like that). I feel like grabbing a Youmuu after IE helps Trist midgame alot, as combined with your Q and attack speed quints you have as much attack speed than a adc with botrk and a attack speed item. It gives damage, crit chances, and arpen which in my opinion make up for her weak midgame. I think going PD after IE+Youmuu is good if you're ahead because you may lack some damages (the high crit %age you have with these 3 items, around 70% iirc, can make up for it if you're lucky enough) that would be useful if you're behind like I was (but I'm stubborn and it paid off as I got a quadra kill to get back in the game). Any thought on this ? I think 6s is too short to rely on as an ADC, and you don't want to have to buy ghostblade because it isn't as much dps towards moderately tanky targets even though it gives many of the correct stats. From my experience in Gold I soloQ, most of the time midgame is little skirmishies and not that many big 5v5 teamfights, so using Youmuu's active to pick one target or chunk it down really fast might give the advantage in a fight, don't you think ?
Maybe most of the time, but those times it's down you'll feel bad that you didn't build something else.
Edit: Reading one of my comments from the past, I didn't mention that greaves only increases Trist's autoattack damage, not spell damage, but tabis would reduce both the opponent Cait's autoattack and spell damage.
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On July 08 2014 21:24 obesechicken13 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 21:17 Sakray wrote:On July 08 2014 21:00 obesechicken13 wrote:On July 08 2014 18:45 Sakray wrote:So after reading this post I've tried a game (ranked ofc) with Trist, I had a Zyra support and we got shat on by a Kog/Nami comp (they were VERY good tho, Kog was last hitting extremely well while harassing us all the time, he had 2x my cs). But after some teamfights I got back in the game (picked up a nice quadra after being down 1-4 sth like that). I feel like grabbing a Youmuu after IE helps Trist midgame alot, as combined with your Q and attack speed quints you have as much attack speed than a adc with botrk and a attack speed item. It gives damage, crit chances, and arpen which in my opinion make up for her weak midgame. I think going PD after IE+Youmuu is good if you're ahead because you may lack some damages (the high crit %age you have with these 3 items, around 70% iirc, can make up for it if you're lucky enough) that would be useful if you're behind like I was (but I'm stubborn and it paid off as I got a quadra kill to get back in the game). Any thought on this ? I think 6s is too short to rely on as an ADC, and you don't want to have to buy ghostblade because it isn't as much dps towards moderately tanky targets even though it gives many of the correct stats. From my experience in Gold I soloQ, most of the time midgame is little skirmishies and not that many big 5v5 teamfights, so using Youmuu's active to pick one target or chunk it down really fast might give the advantage in a fight, don't you think ? Maybe most of the time, but those times it's down you'll feel bad that you didn't build something else. Edit: Reading one of my comments from the past, I didn't mention that greaves only increases Trist's autoattack damage, not spell damage, but tabis would reduce both the opponent Cait's autoattack and spell damage.
Well it's only 45s cooldown, if chunk someone down or even kill him 1v1/2v1, there won't be any teamfight soon.
Also about your edit I don't understand what you're talking about xd
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tabis armor will reduce, but the 10% doesn't happen which is the only reason to get it, honestly tabi is awful, if you want a different boot choice, get lucidity. I did the math awhile ago but it's not too bad to get 15% cdr with her AS buff and it also gives you her escape faster and her ult faster, which ends up keeping her safer than attacking a tad bit faster.
i prefer going double dorans to IE to botrk than PD
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Top tier players on my server rush shiv on trist nowadays. I remember this started on the EU server right after the first BT nerf patch and someone rushed shiv on LCS. Game after that someone rushed botrk. Both games were interesting, but I didnt really understand why. Other than shiv having a really interesting "assassin" capability, and Botrk was an attempt to fix her lack luster mid game.
But now since shiv is being used more and more, I tried it out....and Im not sure how to feel about it.
On one hand, if you get it early enough your harrass becomes fucking ridiculous. The usual is to auto attack once and immediately E the opponent and back away, de-aggroing the minions and preventing retaliation while the E damage ticks away. Doing this everytime E comes back up and planning an all in with your support after someone drops below 40% is always fun. But with shiv its ridiculous. Its maximizing her early game caster style laning while sacrificing her wildwest straight up fighting power when she rushes IE first. It hurts that department, but she was never really strong right after getting IE either (lack of AD scaling abilities). Sure, shes can work like an assassin but its technically better with shiv that early on.
But on the other hand, shiv isnt that great of a choice on a hyper carry so to speak...
My personal favorite is to double dorans, rush IE immediately, zerk greaves, and if opponent isnt tanky, Im rushing yomumus asap. She becomes absolutely violent with the extra damage and armor pen, and 40% crit is more than enough. The CDR is an added bonus that lets her Q come back up faster, although not by that much, its still useful during mid game with all the small skirmishes.
If opponents are tanky, Id much prefer to go PD since its much more "hard carry" than any other item. Shiv just feels like a soft option compared either of them.
I dont go botrk unless its the third item after PD and I dont really need LW yet, or semi-final item after IE-GB-PD-LW (I sell GB after completing Botrk since the small damage and armor pen are hurting my other departments at that stage of the game)
Life steal from two dorans is enough, otherwise Ill either complete a cutlass early on or leave it at the scepter.
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I've tried Shyv first as well and I got destroyed because my opponent rushed IE and just kept going at me.
You lack so much damage compared to IE rush that if they want to fight you basically can't do shit.
Rushing IE is way better imo if your kitting is good enough. If an early fight happens, you stay behind, press Q and just right click people to death. If you have Shyv, they'll ignore you because you're useless.
It might be good against passive lanes, other than that you'll just get destroyed.
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Not that it really affects AD trist anyways. the damage early on wasnt THAT great if you didnt auto attack once or twice, and half the harrass during early laning phase comes from supports. You didnt use the W as a damage dealer either, tho I must admit the slow duration nerf is sad.
Either way.
What the fuck Is riot thinking. Im not exactly sure what their thought process was during the nerf. AD trist is strong. Lets nerf the AP part of her? I dont get it.I highly doubt any of the changes actually do anything to tune down AD tristana.
We're probably going to see a stat nerf next patch or something. Or a range nerf. Dry laugh.
Regarding the Shiv vs IE argument. You guys are missing the point.
I stated that shiv rushes are only starting for players of top calibur on my server, meaning D1 and above.
I thought about it and the main benefit for Shiv is giving her an aoe wave clear/harrass tool. Since trist is already horrendous at freezing lanes, she can either shove the lane and farm golems/wight, or she gets a stronger poke option with the shiv passive+E combo that actually does a LOT of damage to squishy ADs early on for no cost. Either option is apparent, since with the popularity of Trist rising and her late game power apparent, players are learning to shut her down early on by directing more aggression into bot lane and picking stronger duelist
IE rush is really only useful when you are already ahead, since if you are behind and you get IE, you farm slower and your mid game is still completely shit, since an IE isnt going to magically make you catch up to a one-and-a-half or two item ADC on the opponent team, and your contribution to teamfights wont be too good without pokes/bursts, forcing you to continue farming minions.
But when you are ahead and get an IE fast, everyone else (mid jungler) probably just finished their first item too, and since you have to biggest gun at that moment and bot lane tower should already be taken, you can already start roaming and force skirmishes with their mid and jungler, giving you an even better chance at snowballing
I still dislike shiv on trist tho
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The reason you get Shiv first is because your skills don't scale off of AD anyway and it maximizes your auto-e-auto harass. Shiv probably does comparable damage to IE for just auto-e-auto unless you crit on IE, and it makes fighting in creeps a lot more dangerous for the enemy because you can actually harass with the shiv proc by hitting a minion and set up more explosions.
It's also significantly cheaper and does more damage in team skirmishes where the proc can do 400 magic damage to a group, which changes Trist's power spike. With Shiv first she's a lot stronger during the midgame because she has a completed item and isn't sitting on raw auto-attack damage waiting for her Q and other items to come online, and midgame has typically been her stereotypical power drop when compared to her early and lategame.
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Shiv and ie rushes are pretty much the same overall it just comes down to what you prefer as a player.
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Regarding Shiv, I thought it was because a) you're going to push the wave whether you like it or not so you might as well just push it hard and farm as fast as possible, and b) many players understand that you can't last hit for shit under tower and they will push lane so Shiv helps you stop it before it reaches tower and clear it asap. The poke potential is nice early on, too.
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EPT
