• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:03
CEST 00:03
KST 07:03
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10
Community News
Rollback Netcode in Brood War565.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 202621Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)0SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup10StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026)78
StarCraft 2
General
5.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 2026 [Old] StarCraft 3 Reportedly in Development StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026) How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)
Tourneys
$3,500 WardiTV Not-Summer Championship ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event RSL 2026 Offline Finals LCQ Sign-Ups Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 546 Catch the Train The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Repalyzer - replay analysis app for StarCraft: Rem Fantasy returning? TL Sidebar missing streams Rollback Netcode in Brood War
Tourneys
[ASL22] Semifinal B [ASL22] Semifinal A [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 4
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Escaping Into Video Games: G…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8111 users

[Discussion] Season 2 Masteries - Page 9

Forum Index > LoL Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 7 8 9 10 11 15 Next All
Junglers, don't worry about the exp mastery so far down in the Utility tree.
Riot plans to buff jungle minion experience.
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
November 14 2011 21:05 GMT
#161
How should I build nocturne? I really want 21 in offense, but i can't decide between 9 in defense or 9 in util. In defense I get smite mastery and a buckload of defenses, but in utility I get the essential 20% buff duration, but the 8 other points are not as valuable.
volcryn
Profile Joined November 2010
United States149 Posts
November 14 2011 21:16 GMT
#162
On November 15 2011 06:05 Chairman Ray wrote:
How should I build nocturne? I really want 21 in offense, but i can't decide between 9 in defense or 9 in util. In defense I get smite mastery and a buckload of defenses, but in utility I get the essential 20% buff duration, but the 8 other points are not as valuable.


last post on pg 5 has my thoughts - on paper I'm really feeling a 9/9/9 +3 on nocturne - its mostly about weighing the 20% buff duration (movespeed is good but not incredibly valuable per point) on those early clears and ganks vs. the increased damage output late game
Sandster
Profile Joined November 2006
United States4054 Posts
November 14 2011 21:18 GMT
#163
On November 15 2011 06:05 Chairman Ray wrote:
How should I build nocturne? I really want 21 in offense, but i can't decide between 9 in defense or 9 in util. In defense I get smite mastery and a buckload of defenses, but in utility I get the essential 20% buff duration, but the 8 other points are not as valuable.


21/9 looks really appealing. You don't need Bladed Armor, and the extra health from Veteran's Scars is really good for Noc.
Two_DoWn
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States13684 Posts
November 14 2011 21:23 GMT
#164
The only reason I see to go utility now is to go flash, good hands, movespeed, runic afinity. Other than that everything is just kinda meh.
"What is the air speed velocity of an unladen courier?" "Dire or Radiant?"
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 14 2011 21:28 GMT
#165
On November 15 2011 06:16 volcryn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 06:05 Chairman Ray wrote:
How should I build nocturne? I really want 21 in offense, but i can't decide between 9 in defense or 9 in util. In defense I get smite mastery and a buckload of defenses, but in utility I get the essential 20% buff duration, but the 8 other points are not as valuable.


last post on pg 5 has my thoughts - on paper I'm really feeling a 9/9/9 +3 on nocturne - its mostly about weighing the 20% buff duration (movespeed is good but not incredibly valuable per point) on those early clears and ganks vs. the increased damage output late game

Noc is one of the junglers I wouldn't go 9/9/9+3 on. Deadliness/Lethality is insane for him.
Moderator
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
November 14 2011 21:28 GMT
#166
Ok, I have decided on my nocturne build:

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-4-1-0-0-1-3-0-3-0-1-1-0-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

21 in offense is just too good on nocturne and I can't pass it up. I am putting defense into health since nocturne benefits very little from jungle masteries in the first clear, and none after that. I am skipping out of 20% buff duration because I don't feel it warrants 9 whole points. Movespeed and mana are fairly weak stats on nocturne.

volcryn
Profile Joined November 2010
United States149 Posts
November 14 2011 21:33 GMT
#167
On November 15 2011 06:28 TheYango wrote:
Noc is one of the junglers I wouldn't go 9/9/9+3 on. Deadliness/Lethality is insane for him.


which is why I posted it as a thought and wanted feedback, as im trying to find the alternatives
Treadmill
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada2833 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-14 22:28:35
November 14 2011 22:26 GMT
#168
On November 15 2011 06:28 Chairman Ray wrote:
Ok, I have decided on my nocturne build:

http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-4-1-0-0-1-3-0-3-0-1-1-0-3-0-4-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

21 in offense is just too good on nocturne and I can't pass it up. I am putting defense into health since nocturne benefits very little from jungle masteries in the first clear, and none after that. I am skipping out of 20% buff duration because I don't feel it warrants 9 whole points. Movespeed and mana are fairly weak stats on nocturne.


Noc also is a lot less dependant on blue buff than other junglers so I agree you can sacrifice the buff duration.

Would it be reasonable, though, to go cut Executioner for Bladed Armour? I could even see something like 15/15/0 on Noc:
http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-0-1-4-0-0-4-1-0-1-1-0-0-0-0-0-1-0-3-2-4-0-0-1-0-1-0-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
With the last point in Havoc could go a variety of places (maybe to the summoner spell buff of your second summoner).
Edit: I think it'd come down to whether you think the arm pen or the movement speed is better.
sylverfyre
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8298 Posts
November 14 2011 22:49 GMT
#169
The only real thing about wealth that I can see as cool is Regrowth+ward (can't NOT open ward as a support and call it a strong opening)
Still feel like wealth should be 1 point, it already has 4 points of prerequisite... :/
STS17
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1817 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 01:15:47
November 15 2011 01:11 GMT
#170
On November 15 2011 07:49 sylverfyre wrote:
The only real thing about wealth that I can see as cool is Regrowth+ward (can't NOT open ward as a support and call it a strong opening)
Still feel like wealth should be 1 point, it already has 4 points of prerequisite... :/


Really debating on if that is stronger then the support going in defense for mercenary, since they usually go 0/x/100000 the extra gold from there should really outweigh the extra gp10 and starting gold while also giving them a defensive boost to die less

Something like http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-3-0-4-3-0-1-0-0-0-0-2-0-3-0-1-3-3-0-0-3-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0
Platinum Level Terran - Take my advice from that perspective
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 15 2011 01:15 GMT
#171
On November 15 2011 10:11 STS17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 07:49 sylverfyre wrote:
The only real thing about wealth that I can see as cool is Regrowth+ward (can't NOT open ward as a support and call it a strong opening)
Still feel like wealth should be 1 point, it already has 4 points of prerequisite... :/


Really debating on if that is stronger then the support going in defense for mercenary, since they usually go 0/x/100000 the extra gold from there should really outweigh the extra gp10 and starting gold while also giving them a defensive boost to die less

The math's been done already. For Mercenary to match the point-efficiency of Greed, you need to be getting a kill/assist every 2.5 minutes, which usually isn't going to happen.

You could still go 21-defense, but it's not going to make Mercenary any less terrible as a mastery.
Moderator
STS17
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1817 Posts
November 15 2011 01:33 GMT
#172
On November 15 2011 10:15 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 10:11 STS17 wrote:
On November 15 2011 07:49 sylverfyre wrote:
The only real thing about wealth that I can see as cool is Regrowth+ward (can't NOT open ward as a support and call it a strong opening)
Still feel like wealth should be 1 point, it already has 4 points of prerequisite... :/


Really debating on if that is stronger then the support going in defense for mercenary, since they usually go 0/x/100000 the extra gold from there should really outweigh the extra gp10 and starting gold while also giving them a defensive boost to die less

The math's been done already. For Mercenary to match the point-efficiency of Greed, you need to be getting a kill/assist every 2.5 minutes, which usually isn't going to happen.

You could still go 21-defense, but it's not going to make Mercenary any less terrible as a mastery.


So for a 30 minute game you need 12 assists to break even. I normally end games with ~20 assists or more. What's the problem
Platinum Level Terran - Take my advice from that perspective
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 01:49:36
November 15 2011 01:49 GMT
#173
If you are going down the 21-defense path for support, the issue is that both initiator and enlightenment are better than the fifth tier masteries (imo), which means that at most you'll have 2 points to put into either merc or honor guard. 2 points into merc = 16g per assist, and 2 points into honor guard = 1% damage reduction. Either way doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference.

Personally I would take the 1% damage reduction just because it's there and happens to synergize with the rest of the masteries whereas merc doesn't.

Xirt
Profile Joined April 2009
Scotland52 Posts
November 15 2011 01:51 GMT
#174
On November 15 2011 10:33 STS17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 10:15 TheYango wrote:
On November 15 2011 10:11 STS17 wrote:
On November 15 2011 07:49 sylverfyre wrote:
The only real thing about wealth that I can see as cool is Regrowth+ward (can't NOT open ward as a support and call it a strong opening)
Still feel like wealth should be 1 point, it already has 4 points of prerequisite... :/


Really debating on if that is stronger then the support going in defense for mercenary, since they usually go 0/x/100000 the extra gold from there should really outweigh the extra gp10 and starting gold while also giving them a defensive boost to die less

The math's been done already. For Mercenary to match the point-efficiency of Greed, you need to be getting a kill/assist every 2.5 minutes, which usually isn't going to happen.

You could still go 21-defense, but it's not going to make Mercenary any less terrible as a mastery.


So for a 30 minute game you need 12 assists to break even. I normally end games with ~20 assists or more. What's the problem


The problem is that you get the gold too late in the game for it to make any difference. If you get good value out of it you were going to win anyway.
rigwarl
Profile Joined January 2011
United States540 Posts
November 15 2011 02:02 GMT
#175
Why are people hating on the new Util? You can get literally the exact same thing you currently can minus 1% runspeed and more mana instead of good hands, which is probably a buff overall.
rigwarl
Profile Joined January 2011
United States540 Posts
November 15 2011 02:05 GMT
#176
Sage is only useful for ARAM trlolol
Treadmill
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada2833 Posts
November 15 2011 02:05 GMT
#177
On November 15 2011 11:02 rigwarl wrote:
Why are people hating on the new Util? You can get literally the exact same thing you currently can minus 1% runspeed and more mana instead of good hands, which is probably a buff overall.

I think the reason is that defence and offence got so much better that utility is relatively much weaker.
volcryn
Profile Joined November 2010
United States149 Posts
November 15 2011 02:07 GMT
#178
On November 15 2011 11:02 rigwarl wrote:
Why are people hating on the new Util? You can get literally the exact same thing you currently can minus 1% runspeed and more mana instead of good hands, which is probably a buff overall.


because power level in both offense and defense skyrocketed in comparison (more signs of the continuing power creep =(
Gooey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States944 Posts
November 15 2011 02:14 GMT
#179
On November 15 2011 10:33 STS17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2011 10:15 TheYango wrote:
On November 15 2011 10:11 STS17 wrote:
On November 15 2011 07:49 sylverfyre wrote:
The only real thing about wealth that I can see as cool is Regrowth+ward (can't NOT open ward as a support and call it a strong opening)
Still feel like wealth should be 1 point, it already has 4 points of prerequisite... :/


Really debating on if that is stronger then the support going in defense for mercenary, since they usually go 0/x/100000 the extra gold from there should really outweigh the extra gp10 and starting gold while also giving them a defensive boost to die less

The math's been done already. For Mercenary to match the point-efficiency of Greed, you need to be getting a kill/assist every 2.5 minutes, which usually isn't going to happen.

You could still go 21-defense, but it's not going to make Mercenary any less terrible as a mastery.


So for a 30 minute game you need 12 assists to break even. I normally end games with ~20 assists or more. What's the problem

Ya, that is what I was thinking. Greed is also a 4 point talent, whereas Mercenary is only 3. So point for point, you gotta take into account that it is only 150 gold every 10 minutes, and not 200. I said earlier that something like 4 hero kills total is totally reasonable for the 12 minute mark as a support for the early game, so 100 gold vs 150 gold early game. The next 10 minutes it's not unreasonable to say you get as many as 6 hero kills, bringing you to around the 10 total mark at 22 minutes. That is an average game for support. You break even with greed here point for point (actually I forgot it's only 24g, so 6 less gold). Overall, you have lost ~50 gold from talents at 22 minutes. I think that 50 gold is a reasonable tradeoff for being able to get the 21 point defensive talent. Supports have serious problems with CC, and a flat 3% hp bonus can only be good. It just seems so useless now to go so far down into utility, so why waste points going all the way into greed, when you can get something along the way to better talents that can almost make up for it? I can't see not getting one of the two, though, because missing out on 250-300 gold is too much. That is 12 minutes of ward vision. To me, the defensive tree just has too much to offer for supports now, and can't convince myself that utility would be better. I think I will have to just wait to play it live to see how everything feels using both builds.
www.twitch.tv/Thatgooey
mrgerry
Profile Joined September 2008
United States1508 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-15 02:18:33
November 15 2011 02:17 GMT
#180
So I've finally given these a look and will probably just end up reiterating what other people already found out, with that said this is what I'll initially run on the heroes i commonly solo q with:

0/21/9 Swain: Considering running cleanse/heal if they do indeed buff cleanse back to removing ignite/exhaust. Probably go something similar on Ryze since he also tends to be in the middle of fights. http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-1-3-3-0-4-2-0-1-0-0-0-3-3-0-0-1-1-0-2-1-4-0-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-0-0-0

21/9/0 Karthus/Annie/Cass: Not much diff between going 21/9/0 or 21/0/9, just depends how reliant on blue I am.

30/0/0 Jax: Cause going 30 pts in a tree sounds badass. http://thefwcentral.com/lol/#&trees=0-3-4-0-4-4-1-0-1-1-0-0-0-4-3-4-1-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0

Don't know why this extra space under my post so im editing this in to not look foolish.




Prev 1 7 8 9 10 11 15 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL: Ladder Tournament
04:00
#3 - $100
ZZZero.O140
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Leta 523
ZZZero.O 140
Hyun 103
Dota 2
qojqva2280
monkeys_forever227
League of Legends
Doublelift3496
Heroes of the Storm
Grubby4537
Liquid`Hasu550
Other Games
summit1g11548
FrodaN1486
KnowMe283
JimRising 245
Livibee187
ViBE16
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick721
StarCraft 2
angryscii 37
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 99
• Adnapsc2 28
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix4
• niya90s 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Scarra748
Other Games
• imaqtpie990
• Shiphtur608
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
11h 57m
Patches Events
16h 57m
BSL Open Qualifier
20h 57m
BSL Open Qualifier
20h 57m
OSC
1d
OSC
1d 13h
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
Online Event
5 days
[ Show More ]
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Rush vs Soulkey
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
BSL Open Qualifier
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #5 - GSB
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Copium Cup

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
Acropolis #5
HCC Season 3
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.