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Junglers, don't worry about the exp mastery so far down in the Utility tree.
Riot plans to buff jungle minion experience. |
United States47024 Posts
On November 15 2011 10:33 STS17 wrote:
So for a 30 minute game you need 12 assists to break even. I normally end games with ~20 assists or more. What's the problem
1) The vast majority of those will come during the endgame, whereas Greed gives you more even gold distribution. You won't be getting the majority of those during a point where it matters.
2) Greed isn't even that good. It sucks. It's half as good as it used to be, and it wasn't even an amazing mastery before. Breaking even with a shit mastery is nothing to be proud of.
On November 15 2011 11:14 Gooey wrote:
Ya, that is what I was thinking. Greed is also a 4 point talent, whereas Mercenary is only 3. So point for point, you gotta take into account that it is only 150 gold every 10 minutes, and not 200. I said earlier that something like 4 hero kills total is totally reasonable for the 12 minute mark as a support for the early game, so 100 gold vs 150 gold early game. The next 10 minutes it's not unreasonable to say you get as many as 6 hero kills, bringing you to around the 10 total mark at 22 minutes. That is an average game for support. You break even with greed here point for point (actually I forgot it's only 24g, so 6 less gold). Overall, you have lost ~50 gold from talents at 22 minutes. I think that 50 gold is a reasonable tradeoff for being able to get the 21 point defensive talent. Supports have serious problems with CC, and a flat 3% hp bonus can only be good. It just seems so useless now to go so far down into utility, so why waste points going all the way into greed, when you can get something along the way to better talents that can almost make up for it? I can't see not getting one of the two, though, because missing out on 250-300 gold is too much. That is 12 minutes of ward vision. To me, the defensive tree just has too much to offer for supports now, and can't convince myself that utility would be better. I think I will have to just wait to play it live to see how everything feels using both builds.
What?
It's a perfectly reasonable scenario for first blood to not even have happened yet by the 12 minute mark. 4 kills in the duo lane alone by 12 minutes is definitely not what I'd consider the norm, at least not in a close game.
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I don't think he's talking about high level play, yango. >.>
In low lvl/normals you see lots of kills/game which is the only place such masteries will work.
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I think for swain, you still need to run either ghost or flash, since he really doesn't have much of a gap closer or initiate. He is kinda weak until you get Rylia's on him during the mid game. Cleanse would definitely be a standard on him now, though. CC removal and immunity would be a premium on him. Cleanse/Flash or Cleanse/Ghost would be me go to if I were to play swain. That general talent setup would be fine (with preference choices in T1 Utility).
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On November 15 2011 11:22 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 10:33 STS17 wrote:
So for a 30 minute game you need 12 assists to break even. I normally end games with ~20 assists or more. What's the problem 1) The vast majority of those will come during the endgame, whereas Greed gives you more even gold distribution. You won't be getting the majority of those during a point where it matters. 2) Greed isn't even that good. It sucks. It's half as good as it used to be, and it wasn't even an amazing mastery before. Breaking even with a shit mastery is nothing to be proud of. Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 11:14 Gooey wrote:
Ya, that is what I was thinking. Greed is also a 4 point talent, whereas Mercenary is only 3. So point for point, you gotta take into account that it is only 150 gold every 10 minutes, and not 200. I said earlier that something like 4 hero kills total is totally reasonable for the 12 minute mark as a support for the early game, so 100 gold vs 150 gold early game. The next 10 minutes it's not unreasonable to say you get as many as 6 hero kills, bringing you to around the 10 total mark at 22 minutes. That is an average game for support. You break even with greed here point for point (actually I forgot it's only 24g, so 6 less gold). Overall, you have lost ~50 gold from talents at 22 minutes. I think that 50 gold is a reasonable tradeoff for being able to get the 21 point defensive talent. Supports have serious problems with CC, and a flat 3% hp bonus can only be good. It just seems so useless now to go so far down into utility, so why waste points going all the way into greed, when you can get something along the way to better talents that can almost make up for it? I can't see not getting one of the two, though, because missing out on 250-300 gold is too much. That is 12 minutes of ward vision. To me, the defensive tree just has too much to offer for supports now, and can't convince myself that utility would be better. I think I will have to just wait to play it live to see how everything feels using both builds. What? It's a perfectly reasonable scenario for first blood to not even have happened yet by the 12 minute mark. 4 kills in the duo lane alone by 12 minutes is definitely not what I'd consider the norm, at least not in a close game.
If you are playing a super passive lane, yeah. It's not going to work on every champion, or every playstyle. I said it earlier how it would be best running it on an aggressive support with roaming capabilities, like an alistar or blitz, even. If I see that all of the champions and lane matchups are going to sit on their ass and farm for the first 20 minutes of the game and only having there be 2-3 hero kills total with only 1 dragon kill, then of course I wouldn't do this. All kills don't have to come from duo lane, nor are you chained permanently to that lane. 4 kills might be too much, so even if it is just 2 (let's say 1 kill lane and 1 kill dragon), 150g missing that early on might not be as bad, and you can make that up with the 2 measly kills (assuming 75g from 2 assists each or something like that). If you are on a support champ that is strong in the mid/early game like alistar anyways, you will need to be the one getting the kills to compete against a sona/janna later on, who don't necessarily need early kills. The extra money you get from assists in the mid game, from 12-22 will get close to matching greed for the mid-game interval.
Once again, not at all intending for this to be run on an AD carry hugging babysitter. I'm not stupid ^^. The defense tree helps you be more aggressive early on with the added movement speed, HP, damage reduction, and crowd control reduction, and I'd rather have the ability to earn extra money in the game than 1.5% dmg reduction. I'm not trying to say "go mercenary because it's better than greed".
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Swain isn't much of a chaser in general but ghost sounds fun. Did Riot give a reason to why they buffing cleanse back? It will just kill off ignite again since you don't want to play at a disadvantage in a ignite v cleanse situation mid. I was under the impression that Riot was trying to make lanes more aggressive. -___-
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Is it worth two mastery points to start with dorans ring and health pots?
No, methinks, but perhaps the sustain could swing a game in crazy ways.
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One thing I like about the new mastery tree is that I can consider speccing cheaply to improve my last hitting. I mean, sure every point builds up to one deeper down, but if I pick up more last hits, I'll make up for the lost stats. For example taking 2AD/+4 minion damage on a 9/0/21 caster, passing up 4 AP. The 6 bonus damage might help last hitting a bunch, especially under tower early on when you need to hit melee minions twice instead of hit-tower-hit.
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On November 15 2011 12:34 bobwhiz wrote:
Is it worth two mastery points to start with dorans ring and health pots?
No, methinks, but perhaps the sustain could swing a game in crazy ways.
what about boots and 5 pots O.O some people wait in base 15 seconds to get 4th pot with boots. now, they can wait 10 seconds and get 2 more pots with boots.
idk. that was the first thing that came to mind when i say the additional 40 gold.
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On November 15 2011 12:34 bobwhiz wrote:
Is it worth two mastery points to start with dorans ring and health pots?
No, methinks, but perhaps the sustain could swing a game in crazy ways.
I'd say everyone who would start Doran's Ring should take 21 offense for insane stats instead.
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What's the verdict on Havoc? Sorry if it's been discussed, I just checked the last few pages. Always take 3/3 if your 21 offensive?
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On November 16 2011 01:32 rigwarl wrote:
What's the verdict on Havoc? Sorry if it's been discussed, I just checked the last few pages. Always take 3/3 if your 21 offensive?
If you're AP, yes. On AD I think it depends, some champ would probably value the 3% lifesteal over havoc.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 16 2011 01:39 Woony wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 01:32 rigwarl wrote:
What's the verdict on Havoc? Sorry if it's been discussed, I just checked the last few pages. Always take 3/3 if your 21 offensive? If you're AP, yes. On AD I think it depends, some champ would probably value the 3% lifesteal over havoc.
Havoc breaks even with Vampirism on gold value (assuming your DPS is primarily autoattacks--which is a fair assumption if you're considering Vampirism at all) at about 227 AD--a reasonable enough point to make it personal preference, IMO.
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Looking forward to 30 point offense Jax/Kog/Teemo. 10% mpen/arpen is some good.
E: I should also thank Riot for telling me not to buy those last 7 dodge yellows
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On November 16 2011 02:53 Offhand wrote:
Looking forward to 30 point offense Jax/Kog/Teemo. 10% mpen/arpen is some good.
E: I should also thank Riot for telling me not to buy those last 7 dodge yellows
what happened to dodge??
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On November 16 2011 05:13 broz0rs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 02:53 Offhand wrote:
Looking forward to 30 point offense Jax/Kog/Teemo. 10% mpen/arpen is some good.
E: I should also thank Riot for telling me not to buy those last 7 dodge yellows what happened to dodge??
They took out nimbleness.
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Any thoughts on whether smite mastery is worth it? It doesn't reduce cooldown, and it means you can't get runic mastery and 21 offence, but it could be quite a bit of extra gold. I'm experimenting with a 12/9/9 build atm, with runic mastery from utility and mini-rammus from defence.
On November 16 2011 05:30 Dgiese wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 05:13 broz0rs wrote:On November 16 2011 02:53 Offhand wrote:
Looking forward to 30 point offense Jax/Kog/Teemo. 10% mpen/arpen is some good.
E: I should also thank Riot for telling me not to buy those last 7 dodge yellows what happened to dodge?? They took out nimbleness.
RIP
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Are they refunding people who have dodge seals? I mean, they're pretty expensive and useless now that we don't have nimbleness.
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Should i run some 9/21/0 setup on singed? I ran 0/30/0 yesterday cuz i dunno wtf to do on him
Should i go for the magic pen is it too far down?
Getting used to this new trees is kind of rough ~_~
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On November 16 2011 23:19 necrosed wrote:
Are they refunding people who have dodge seals? I mean, they're pretty expensive and useless now that we don't have nimbleness.
Dodge isn´t obsolete just yet. It still is the best defense against autoattacks if you have >100 Armor. We get a refund once dodge literally stops existing.
I´d say 0/21/9 or 1/21/8 since Singed isn´t about the DPS but about the trolling and MS is better for that.
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EPT
