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On July 08 2014 05:10 Ghost-z wrote:
I never said using Olaf to peel was ideal, but what else are you going to do if your ult/ghost combo is down?
I mean, you can do that, but that is just an illustration of how overly reliant on a summoner spell (Ghost) Olaf is.
On July 08 2014 05:31 GreggSauce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 03:55 cLutZ wrote:
I've never seen (well I have, but only on tl) people so vigorously say characters that clearly are undertuned are actually really good, if only people would use them in this other way.
Seriously? Use Olaf to peel? With his 45% slow? That is what teams want you to do. Mundo does that better, and jax, and nasus, malphite, zac........ you do realize that he has been nothing but buffed by the recent changes in the game right? the only hit sort of nerf is randuins not slowing movespeed but that was never an item choice for me anyway. What if korea/lcs never picked up kog, or better yet, what about all those players that have carried hard as twitch but he almost never received any professional play? He then got a VISUAL UPDATE and right after everyone played him, and lead to him actually being nerfed, when nothing actually changed on him stats wise. the meta isn't all knowing, it took 2 months for everyone else to realize lulu was OP after the AP ratio "nerf" and the competitive scene recently discovered the whole runaans thing... -_- nearly every champion can carry very hard given the right circumstances, I just have had really good success with olaf even when behind, which wasn't the case before these buffs. this is especially relevant to me considering how bad my top lane is. if nothing more, olaf can be a great counter pick to a tanky team.
He needs buffs to be good. You dont get to say things like "I have had success" or "the meta isn't perfect" and say that people should prove a negative.
You need to lay out your affirmative case: "I want a toplaner that does X, Olaf does X better than other toplaners." That is step 1. Step 2 is "Olaf's weaknesses YZ are not large enough to outweigh this X".
Look, I'm not saying you shouldn't play him, because I play him. But when I do I know I am handicapping myself for the sake of fun and diversity over playing Jax/Mundo/Shyvana/Renekton/AP tops.
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Recent changes being buffs to Olaf? Name one. The Randuins nerf was huge. Also nearly every ADC suddenly having a BotRK because no one builds Bloodthirster anymore doesn't really play into his favor. Neither does the change to the burst aspect of it, because that was pretty useful for helping burst people fairly quickly. And 8% of his current health being knocked off on the first hit pre-resists from the new BotRK doesn't help much either.
Other things like exhaust, heal, protect the Kog comps seeing a resurgence, turret, etc. make him really lackluster now. You factor everything together, and I think most reasonable people would say "there's not much reason to play Olaf right now." Before all of those changes I could sort of convince myself his drawbacks were worth it against the right comp, but now? Hell no. The one time I might pull him out as a Jax lane counter (which probably isn't even worth it given if the game drags enough this amounts to nothing), otherwise I'm not touching him with a 10 foot pole if I'm thinking about it from a strength of the pick perspective. Maybe the teleport cooldown onto a turret being longer helps him a tiny tiny bit?
Lulu has gobs of utility, you can't look at Olaf and honestly claim people are missing something, because he's similar to a number of other bruisers and he has almost no utility aside from the paltry slow on his axes. The fact you think all the recent changes amount to an Olaf buff is nuts, and I let "split push Olaf" go without comments because it was fringe enough I think most people would realize its sub-optimal on its own, but why on earth would you pick Olaf with the intent of playing him as a low defense two early offensive item split pusher? He has no innate escape other than "oo, you can't cc me temporarily" which isn't exactly the best means of escape if you're deep. Who gives a crap if you win a 1v1 if you have very poor means of closing on the person opposite of you, and all they have to do is stall, because if you use your ghost and ult to kill them, you now have no realistic means of escaping with other people closing on you. You can't say "think Jax or Tryn" when what makes them obscene is their low cooldown dashes that make it extremely difficult to catch them on top of being strong 1v1ers when they're even/ahead.
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Protect the Kog'ma coming back to the meta seems like a good reason to pick Olaf, become a huge tank, and cause hell for the enemy back line. But other than that specific case Olaf isn't a top tier pick. I just like playing him over any other tank because Brolaf!
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On July 08 2014 07:43 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 05:10 Ghost-z wrote:
I never said using Olaf to peel was ideal, but what else are you going to do if your ult/ghost combo is down? I mean, you can do that, but that is just an illustration of how overly reliant on a summoner spell (Ghost) Olaf is. Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 05:31 GreggSauce wrote:On July 08 2014 03:55 cLutZ wrote:
I've never seen (well I have, but only on tl) people so vigorously say characters that clearly are undertuned are actually really good, if only people would use them in this other way.
Seriously? Use Olaf to peel? With his 45% slow? That is what teams want you to do. Mundo does that better, and jax, and nasus, malphite, zac........ you do realize that he has been nothing but buffed by the recent changes in the game right? the only hit sort of nerf is randuins not slowing movespeed but that was never an item choice for me anyway. What if korea/lcs never picked up kog, or better yet, what about all those players that have carried hard as twitch but he almost never received any professional play? He then got a VISUAL UPDATE and right after everyone played him, and lead to him actually being nerfed, when nothing actually changed on him stats wise. the meta isn't all knowing, it took 2 months for everyone else to realize lulu was OP after the AP ratio "nerf" and the competitive scene recently discovered the whole runaans thing... -_- nearly every champion can carry very hard given the right circumstances, I just have had really good success with olaf even when behind, which wasn't the case before these buffs. this is especially relevant to me considering how bad my top lane is. if nothing more, olaf can be a great counter pick to a tanky team. He needs buffs to be good. You dont get to say things like "I have had success" or "the meta isn't perfect" and say that people should prove a negative. You need to lay out your affirmative case: "I want a toplaner that does X, Olaf does X better than other toplaners." That is step 1. Step 2 is "Olaf's weaknesses YZ are not large enough to outweigh this X". Look, I'm not saying you shouldn't play him, because I play him. But when I do I know I am handicapping myself for the sake of fun and diversity over playing Jax/Mundo/Shyvana/Renekton/AP tops.
Well for 1 Olaf beats every single non ap top you just mentioned...
2. it really doesn't sound like you play him at all.
3. I get to say my opinions exactly how I want to, and give my build I used for success and fun, just because you don't find him viable doesn't mean he isn't. Plenty of champs weren't considered viable were recently played to hell and then nerfed or are about to be nerfed. Could he use a buff or a change in his kit (again) sure? But does he need one to be strong? I don't think so, maybe he's only a 50% win rate champ now, but he has been 35-40% win rate and I don't think that has to be the case anymore.
4....You act incredibly smug when you're providing even less information than me regarding this, I'm not perfect, my play does suffer from miscalculations, but I am pretty sure olaf can be a great pick in where the meta is currently going.
On July 08 2014 09:13 zer0das wrote:
Recent changes being buffs to Olaf? Name one. The Randuins nerf was huge. Also nearly every ADC suddenly having a BotRK because no one builds Bloodthirster anymore doesn't really play into his favor. Neither does the change to the burst aspect of it, because that was pretty useful for helping burst people fairly quickly. And 8% of his current health being knocked off on the first hit pre-resists from the new BotRK doesn't help much either.
Other things like exhaust, heal, protect the Kog comps seeing a resurgence, turret, etc. make him really lackluster now. You factor everything together, and I think most reasonable people would say "there's not much reason to play Olaf right now." Before all of those changes I could sort of convince myself his drawbacks were worth it against the right comp, but now? Hell no. The one time I might pull him out as a Jax lane counter (which probably isn't even worth it given if the game drags enough this amounts to nothing), otherwise I'm not touching him with a 10 foot pole if I'm thinking about it from a strength of the pick perspective. Maybe the teleport cooldown onto a turret being longer helps him a tiny tiny bit?
Lulu has gobs of utility, you can't look at Olaf and honestly claim people are missing something, because he's similar to a number of other bruisers and he has almost no utility aside from the paltry slow on his axes. The fact you think all the recent changes amount to an Olaf buff is nuts, and I let "split push Olaf" go without comments because it was fringe enough I think most people would realize its sub-optimal on its own, but why on earth would you pick Olaf with the intent of playing him as a low defense two early offensive item split pusher? He has no innate escape other than "oo, you can't cc me temporarily" which isn't exactly the best means of escape if you're deep. Who gives a crap if you win a 1v1 if you have very poor means of closing on the person opposite of you, and all they have to do is stall, because if you use your ghost and ult to kill them, you now have no realistic means of escaping with other people closing on you. You can't say "think Jax or Tryn" when what makes them obscene is their low cooldown dashes that make it extremely difficult to catch them on top of being strong 1v1ers when they're even/ahead.
Lulu anywhere but support and mid isn't supposed to happen, riot doesn't even like it, saying the current S class top is better than any other top is a stupid argument.
Paltry slow? You spelled perma wrong. randuins in my opinion was just an added item to get on him and not even really that beneficial for him considering he has an aoe slow and frozen heart has always made his kit much much stronger.
How you type makes you seem like you're disconnected with reality a tiny bit. If you play smartly you won't get ganked and you won't have to rely on any type of escape. Maybe you should calm down, think everything through and give olaf an actual shot. You may enjoy yourself and even win...easily...
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I'm kind of unconvinced when all your profile shows is a 5-6 record for Olaf at Gold I, considering these games include a swifties/Triforce/BotRK Nasus who fed super hard, a Singed who seems to have rushed Rylai+Liandry's and such.
I'll admit that your damage done to champions graph is rather high, especially considering the amount of stupid shit like Ziggs in your teams, but your sample of games played to support your allegations is very low, especially considering that for a good third of them you didn't even go the build you advertised.
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On July 09 2014 00:00 Ghost-z wrote:
Protect the Kog'ma coming back to the meta seems like a good reason to pick Olaf, become a huge tank, and cause hell for the enemy back line. But other than that specific case Olaf isn't a top tier pick. I just like playing him over any other tank because Brolaf!
I don't necessarily think it is, because these comps have a lot more shields, heals, and a stronger exhaust at their disposal than they did last time protect the Kog comps were popular, and Kog's damage output is high enough your odds of dying before killing him are fairly high unless your team did an extremely good job of engaging. Engaging well with a champion that is largely limited by how fast he can walk just adds a layer of difficulty to things.
In response to the perma slow comment, its paltry because its actual utility is low if you aren't using offensively. You can't realistically expect to kite backwards with it, because the cooldown is so long if you don't pick up the axe. There are fringe cases where this isn't true (chucking an axe on an ulting Wukong, for example), but you don't pick Olaf for the utility on his axes. Unless you have an early invade strategy and want the vision.
You still haven't listed a single "buff" to Olaf via the recent changes. I'd like something concrete here, not anecdotes. The entire point of a split pusher is to draw people toward you and put enough threat down that the enemy team has to react by either engaging your team or falling back to put effort into killing you. If they choose option 2, you need a reasonable way to get out. Saying "play safe" is being disingenuous, because every split pusher out there already has to consider this, and most of them have much better ways of running away. So how much threat are you actually generating if you're playing safe on a low mobility split pusher? I'm going to say on average, not a lot unless you're comically ahead of your counterpart.
As for giving Olaf a shot, maybe I should.
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On July 09 2014 03:45 Alaric wrote:I'm kind of unconvinced when all your profile shows is a 5-6 record for Olaf at Gold I, considering these games include a swifties/Triforce/BotRK Nasus who fed super hard, a Singed who seems to have rushed Rylai+Liandry's and such. I'll admit that your damage done to champions graph is rather high, especially considering the amount of stupid shit like Ziggs in your teams, but your sample of games played to support your allegations is very low, especially considering that for a good third of them you didn't even go the build you advertised.
wonder if I can show you 3 of the games i've lost lol, had really weird teams and I just dropped down, but the thing is I don't play this only on my main i just recently brought him out and i was 5-1 with him. Pretty sure my IRL friend is bad luck for me lol
With that said I never said he was the best and should be OP or be the next top tier, he just beats a lot of the current top laners, and with the new botrk plus the older cdr buffs he can get 40% cdr, life steal, and be incredibly tanky still.
ex-if you look at the last game I played with him, I actually rebought my kit twice, my team would get caught by lux and something else, die, lose objective, rinse and repeat. I went from pure damage and was doing pretty well, to having to go almost full tank to try to keep my team alive because they were only getting caught 
he is a lot more effective than people think now, and with tanky junglers back in the meta he can be a great pick, that is all.
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On July 09 2014 05:10 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 00:00 Ghost-z wrote:
Protect the Kog'ma coming back to the meta seems like a good reason to pick Olaf, become a huge tank, and cause hell for the enemy back line. But other than that specific case Olaf isn't a top tier pick. I just like playing him over any other tank because Brolaf! I don't necessarily think it is, because these comps have a lot more shields, heals, and a stronger exhaust at their disposal than they did last time protect the Kog comps were popular, and Kog's damage output is high enough your odds of dying before killing him are fairly high unless your team did an extremely good job of engaging. Engaging well with a champion that is largely limited by how fast he can walk just adds a layer of difficulty to things. In response to the perma slow comment, its paltry because its actual utility is low if you aren't using offensively. You can't realistically expect to kite backwards with it, because the cooldown is so long if you don't pick up the axe. There are fringe cases where this isn't true (chucking an axe on an ulting Wukong, for example), but you don't pick Olaf for the utility on his axes. Unless you have an early invade strategy and want the vision. You still haven't listed a single "buff" to Olaf via the recent changes. I'd like something concrete here, not anecdotes. The entire point of a split pusher is to draw people toward you and put enough threat down that the enemy team has to react by either engaging your team or falling back to put effort into killing you. If they choose option 2, you need a reasonable way to get out. Saying "play safe" is being disingenuous, because every split pusher out there already has to consider this, and most of them have much better ways of running away. So how much threat are you actually generating if you're playing safe on a low mobility split pusher? I'm going to say on average, not a lot unless you're comically ahead of your counterpart. As for giving Olaf a shot, maybe I should.
I've already listed how the recent changes have buffed him.
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Which CDR buffs? Since the last time he was actually good, SV and Shroud were nerfed, Shurely doesn't exist anymore...
As for the buffs, how significant are CDR runes (real question, I never bothered about them, I just know it's easier to hit 10% from them with a round number)?
BotRK's on-hit isn't particularly better for him, considering whenever he hits squishies (when he goes for a dive) his autos and Es will do more damage than the on-hit. It also means he will take more damage from the champions building it, and with BT taking such a big hit BotRK is near-omnipresent (save for IE first carries). If he uses the active to close the gap it can be used on him in turn to run away.
Also take into account the pool of popular champions: Ziggs is hard to engage on because of the goddamn minefield and Olaf doesn't provide the initiation; he can't ignore the minefield but will get cut from his team; Satchel Charge is mobility. Lulu, with her W and the time her R can buy, be it from the offlane, mid or support. Kayle with a heal, a speedboost, and her ult making Olaf waste his. Nami with all the MS boosts and the ability to separate Olaf from his team. Jax would win later on and can somewhat easily escape Olaf if he uses Q well compared to Undertow. Twitch doesn't care about cc immunity because you can't hit what you can't see, and he doesn't have to show himself until he can wreck your team anyway.
All in all I don't see too much for Olaf currently. He'd need better build-ups too, he heavily prefers resistances but he needs a buffer of HP to reach the fight and make his E's cost insignificant. All this makes it rather awkward for him to itemise in the early game because if he goes damage he'll be weaker than champions like Shyvana/Jax/Irelia/Renekton, and will have to wait for his 2nd item to really be a teamfighting threat; until then he wants a 1v1 without a tower for his opponent to juke around, and skirmishes.
I also don't get your answer to me. Do you mean you're playing him more on a smurf? But where's that smurf then? If you're Gold I and truck people with a Silver I/Gold V smurf then it's irrelevant to Olaf anyway, for example, because the skill gap is too wide to begin with.
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On July 09 2014 05:28 GreggSauce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 05:10 zer0das wrote:On July 09 2014 00:00 Ghost-z wrote:
Protect the Kog'ma coming back to the meta seems like a good reason to pick Olaf, become a huge tank, and cause hell for the enemy back line. But other than that specific case Olaf isn't a top tier pick. I just like playing him over any other tank because Brolaf! I don't necessarily think it is, because these comps have a lot more shields, heals, and a stronger exhaust at their disposal than they did last time protect the Kog comps were popular, and Kog's damage output is high enough your odds of dying before killing him are fairly high unless your team did an extremely good job of engaging. Engaging well with a champion that is largely limited by how fast he can walk just adds a layer of difficulty to things. In response to the perma slow comment, its paltry because its actual utility is low if you aren't using offensively. You can't realistically expect to kite backwards with it, because the cooldown is so long if you don't pick up the axe. There are fringe cases where this isn't true (chucking an axe on an ulting Wukong, for example), but you don't pick Olaf for the utility on his axes. Unless you have an early invade strategy and want the vision. You still haven't listed a single "buff" to Olaf via the recent changes. I'd like something concrete here, not anecdotes. The entire point of a split pusher is to draw people toward you and put enough threat down that the enemy team has to react by either engaging your team or falling back to put effort into killing you. If they choose option 2, you need a reasonable way to get out. Saying "play safe" is being disingenuous, because every split pusher out there already has to consider this, and most of them have much better ways of running away. So how much threat are you actually generating if you're playing safe on a low mobility split pusher? I'm going to say on average, not a lot unless you're comically ahead of your counterpart. As for giving Olaf a shot, maybe I should. I've already listed how the recent changes have buffed him.
List them again for my benefit, because I sure haven't seen you list them concisely.
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I don't feel like it, they're up there.
To the guy above, yes I play him on couple smurfs, nothing higher than plat and a couple unranked. I haven't been playing well lately so my record, and the champion shouldn't exactly go hand in hand, I haven't been able to even carry with my go-to orianna pick (80-90% win rate in plat/diamond when I was there) so idk.
With that said you shouldn't be going for squishies unless you have to, your object is to duel a tank and keep them off your squishes by "peeling by threat."
My games with olaf when I made this were plat IV, since then i've dropped even further, maybe tilting or whatever, but I was practicing olaf when my normal MMR was diamond V before all hell broke loose on my account lol.
You're listing some of the most OP champions in the game, like we have no banning phase, and like most champions have a way to deal with them? That's kind of ridiculous, anyway.
lulu, yeah, pain in the ass all game for any melee champion...period, and most champions
ziggs, pain in the ass for every champion, agian period.
nami, never been an issue, could see how she could be but the object is to win, not get seperated from my team when i don't want to me, non issue.
jax beats everyone later on, with that said, if anyone cc's jax for like 1-2 seconds he's dead with you, definitely is a coin flip, but you have an ult that makes it go in your favor 100% if you're quick enough.
kayle, sort of a pain in the ass i guess? run in, knock her down, her ult goes up, engage someone else, she has to chase you, or goes back to your team, rinse and repeat.
twitch?...really? can't hit what you can't see? oh yeah like all but a handful of champs with detection abilities... non issue
I go AD, scaling cdr quints, whatever for blues and yellows
depending on the matchup I go either 21/6/3 with spell weaving, cdr, and duel edge or 5/22/3
basically if we have no tank and my pick was kind of blind i'll go tanky, if not i'll go more hardcore all damage
i prefer to start dorans shield, but i have had great success with level 1 dueling a nasus with red elixir and pots
afterwards i almost always go longswords-cutlass, then botrk. in some cases i will start building up my armor but i prefer getting boots before armor if possible
once you're 6 if you plan your ult right you can outduel anyone top lane, time your ult to take away the cc that has most top lanes win their trade and they just lose, be wary of getting ganked though, if they seem like they're baiting then they are.
your only object from what I can see as olaf is to kill the top laner and try to find the enemy jungler if you can and take him out too
if you can finish your item before your opponent they will never be able to stay in lane, and once that happens you want to get a good TP off, hopefully your team goes dragon or dives bot lane or something like that. when my olaf wins hard it's due to snowballing from good calls, a bad call will get you killed. you don't want to go 1-1 as olaf, you want to delete and run
boots of swiftness are the boots i usually get, but tabi work good
bottom line is, try it out or don't try it out, but i'm growing tired of people saying it can't work when I was having success with it in plat/diamond, sure its not challenger but its not bronze/silver either.
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Well you were talking about "more protect the Kog comps benefit Olaf", to which I was responding that it doesn't necessarily.
If you're against a 4-protect-1, normally your own comp doesn't scale as well as their 1, meaning your goal is to kill him, not kill all of the peelers and frontliners and then him. Champs with cleanses and MS buffs work better than those relying on pure cc against Olaf because since you can't stop him, remaining out of his range is the other option. And in a comp that makes you want to dive them because of their "1", the ability to separate the enemy team when they try to go in is a very valuable one. All I did was take your argument and pit it against the current popular picks.
It's not like I don't try playing him either from time to time, and I get to the same conclusion every instance. Sure I'm only Gold I, but I used to main Olaf in s2 and I kept playing him for a few weeks after his destruction in s3, and I picked him back up as soon as SmashGizmo changed him. I'm posting here because [who he was] is one of my favourite champions and I'd wish he wasn't so handicaped.
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No, you haven't. List the damn changes that benefit Olaf and stop talking in circles.
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On July 09 2014 07:51 Alaric wrote:
Well you were talking about "more protect the Kog comps benefit Olaf", to which I was responding that it doesn't necessarily.
If you're against a 4-protect-1, normally your own comp doesn't scale as well as their 1, meaning your goal is to kill him, not kill all of the peelers and frontliners and then him. Champs with cleanses and MS buffs work better than those relying on pure cc against Olaf because since you can't stop him, remaining out of his range is the other option. And in a comp that makes you want to dive them because of their "1", the ability to separate the enemy team when they try to go in is a very valuable one. All I did was take your argument and pit it against the current popular picks.
It's not like I don't try playing him either from time to time, and I get to the same conclusion every instance. Sure I'm only Gold I, but I used to main Olaf in s2 and I kept playing him for a few weeks after his destruction in s3, and I picked him back up as soon as SmashGizmo changed him. I'm posting here because [who he was] is one of my favourite champions and I'd wish he wasn't so handicaped.
Basically the same for me. He is worse for every comp than at least 2 of the popular champions. He is particularly anemic when matched with these champs, and if you are never the optimal champion for a situation, you aren't viable.
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On July 09 2014 07:51 zer0das wrote:
No, you haven't. List the damn changes that benefit Olaf and stop talking in circles.
you're done here, already addressed, l2r or leave thanks.
On July 09 2014 07:59 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 07:51 Alaric wrote:
Well you were talking about "more protect the Kog comps benefit Olaf", to which I was responding that it doesn't necessarily.
If you're against a 4-protect-1, normally your own comp doesn't scale as well as their 1, meaning your goal is to kill him, not kill all of the peelers and frontliners and then him. Champs with cleanses and MS buffs work better than those relying on pure cc against Olaf because since you can't stop him, remaining out of his range is the other option. And in a comp that makes you want to dive them because of their "1", the ability to separate the enemy team when they try to go in is a very valuable one. All I did was take your argument and pit it against the current popular picks.
It's not like I don't try playing him either from time to time, and I get to the same conclusion every instance. Sure I'm only Gold I, but I used to main Olaf in s2 and I kept playing him for a few weeks after his destruction in s3, and I picked him back up as soon as SmashGizmo changed him. I'm posting here because [who he was] is one of my favourite champions and I'd wish he wasn't so handicaped. Basically the same for me. He is worse for every comp than at least 2 of the popular champions. He is particularly anemic when matched with these champs, and if you are never the optimal champion for a situation, you aren't viable.
I never brought that up, someone else did to clutz and alaric. If you're saying olaf isn't viable because 5v5 he can't hard engage then you're right, but also if you're in a 5v5 situation the game didn't go how you wanted it to anyway. I guess the takeaway from all of this is if you use him right he excels, and if you don't he won't?
From my experiences, everyone makes a mistake eventually, all it takes is 1 axe to burn a summoner spell or two, and in all honesty, i haven't had too bad of experiences with 5v5's as olaf using my damage build as long as we had a reliable tank to engage ahead of me.
my original post was something like "olaf is pretty good now with botrk, this is what I do... blah blah blah, currently unbeaten with him against top lanes in whatever elo, gold-high plat" that is still the point i'm trying to make, if you guys happen to not think he isn't viable that's cool, but I don't think this topic is for your to tell me that something I have carried hard with happens to work in highesh elo, now people will have to sift through a silly argument the whole time trying to figure out what to build because this topic is so out of date...
can you please argue with me through PM instead of inflating this anymore?
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You make vague claims about it being easy to build 40% CDR and the new BoTRK helps him, but both are patently false (historically, its more difficult to build 40% cdr without runes than ever) and you provide no reasoning as to why your claims are true. No, I will not take this to PMs because you're spewing nonsense that exceeds the Shikyo level, and its in like every damn thread and I'm tired of it.
Even if the above were true, they don't even come close to compensating for the other changes.
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Gregg, either list them or leave the thread, please.
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Jax/Mundo/Shyvana/Renekton/AP tops
On July 09 2014 03:28 GreggSauce wrote:
Well for 1 Olaf beats every single non ap top you just mentioned...
I would like some explanation on how he beats Jax and Renekton in particular. Also:
On July 09 2014 03:28 GreggSauce wrote:
Lulu anywhere but support and mid isn't supposed to happen, riot doesn't even like it, saying the current S class top is better than any other top is a stupid argument.
Lulu's been being played exclusively top for a couple patches now in NA/KR/EU. And I think that saying the current S class top is stronger than Olaf is a lot less of a stretch than saying Olaf is better than the current S class top laners...
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Olaf is actually pretty good against Jax early because Jax can't really deal with the repeated true damage from Olaf's E's, and tends to lose every close all-in if it's 1v1, pre-6 (mana is partly why). If Jax tries to cs, you q his face and e him- he can try to counter strike onto you to return some of the damage, but if you auto him as he walks away you should come out ahead (and you have innate sustain, whereas he doesn't). Post 6 it comes down to whether or not Jax has built up his passive on a wave- you can't really fight him if he has, but if he hasn't you can zone him off creeps with fairly good success because every time he goes to try cs you E him in the face and he can't vamp it back fast enough. If you've maintained a small lead at least.
Haven't really played the matchup since they changed doran's blades though. The real issue is 2v2s can swing pretty heavily to the Jax side, and if Jax's mid roams you're in a lot more trouble than in the reserve situation due to your lack of a low cooldown dash that can be used as an escape. I imagine it's pretty heavily in favor Olaf's favor now early, given they nerfed Jax's armor per level and his hitpoints a bit, at least in a vacuum. More importantly, if Jax goes TP he's going to have problems against an Olaf with ignite. The hard part of the matchup is staying far enough ahead that you can always deal with him, because the later the game gets, the better Jax can deal with your true damage burst. It comes down to, are you good enough to body a Jax that you're confident you can win the game before he becomes a factor? If you never get a lead early or you lose it, you're just completely screwed though.
Renekton is a lot more of a challenge, but essentially the best way to play it is get 2-3 levels in Q and just passively farm as best you can. Then when you reach 8 or 9, you'll have enough levels in E that you can start to fight him. You're going to be behind 20-30 cs in farm most likely, but if you make it past that point your E is going to beat him in really long fights, especially if you manage to complete BotRK after your first armor item (and definitely after your second). Renektons burst is obnoxious, but if you can survive it in relatively good shape, you're generally going to beat him as Olaf. Thing is, you're never going to only be against Renekton if their jungler is smart, so its not really a matchup you pick into if you can avoid it. Once you get over the hump, Renekton is never going to really beat you 1v1 though, because BotRK and your true damage just shred him.
With Olaf it's never really been an issue of the 1v1 in my mind, it's about what you offer to your team and whether its enough. And at the moment, I think the answer is simply no, it's not enough. About a month ago I would have said "maybe."
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On July 09 2014 08:39 zer0das wrote:
You make vague claims about it being easy to build 40% CDR and the new BoTRK helps him, but both are patently false (historically, its more difficult to build 40% cdr without runes than ever) and you provide no reasoning as to why your claims are true. No, I will not take this to PMs because you're spewing nonsense that exceeds the Shikyo level, and its in like every damn thread and I'm tired of it.
Even if the above were true, they don't even come close to compensating for the other changes.
Frozen heart, Spirit Visage, Idk for the last 10, runes/masteries probably
Both of those are super good items on Olaf tbh.
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EPT
