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On August 20 2011 16:48 UniversalSnip wrote:
thanks for your insight. couple questions
- wouldn't it be better to smite big wraith then go to wolves then go finish wraiths
- what are you building after wriggles when warmogs isn't suitable? i pretty much never rush warmogs on jungle sin and im curious as to what you consider standard otherwise
Depends on the game , many of the games if u dont have amazing early game warmog rushing wont work. If it doesnt your atma will be really late and you wouldnt do damage through the midgame where lee sin excels his early game advantage ( assuming he has one ).
You could also try going merc treads , lantern , phage / brutalizer. From there you arent very tanky but you can choose into building frozen mallet for hp or trinity. The problem lee sin has in solo que is people assume you are a tank , which you arent. You are an amazing ganker early game , decent damage dealer mid game and a tanky initiator / finisher late game.
Also to your second question , lee sin is probably one of the few jungles who can snowball kills really fast early game in 2k + rated games. If u get 3-4 kills or alot of assists early game and, dragon rushing warmogs will make u invincible , your damage wont fall of because you will be high level compared to the rest of the game. I dont know about us meta , but because of brand(mega nukes mid meta) morgana has been picked / banned almost 90% of my games recently. Lee sin with morgana shield is AMAZING
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If you need a tank/initiator you still want to build into that, especially if you have a poor early game. I'd rather be able to initiate and be a sacrificial lamb than attempt to build into an assassin/bruiser type where a carry can easily 1v1 you.
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On August 22 2011 15:05 rob.au wrote:
If you need a tank/initiator you still want to build into that, especially if you have a poor early game. I'd rather be able to initiate and be a sacrificial lamb than attempt to build into an assassin/bruiser type where a carry can easily 1v1 you.
If u cant stack the warmog get a mallet.
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Oh another very important thing that i forgot to mention is that you wait to buy your starting item after the initial CV , this way your enemy's wont know if you are ganking early or picking up a fast leveling route. The difference being dorans vs V.scepter vs boots
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Reformatted the OP item section to have a clearer progression from early game to late game. Shamelessly copied from t3h Smash.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 22 2011 16:42 TheBJ wrote:
Oh another very important thing that i forgot to mention is that you wait to buy your starting item after the initial CV , this way your enemy's wont know if you are ganking early or picking up a fast leveling route. The difference being dorans vs V.scepter vs boots
Not worth it. They'll CV you again before laning starts, and by waiting that long, you get the opponent the chance to set up for/against invasion. It's always better to buy instantly and go, IMO (and I've never seen a high-level team wait out a CV before leaving base).
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I find getting 1-2 dblaed after wriggles and mercs quite strong on lee. It's around the time when his ganks are the strongest and you want to have cheap and effective items on him. hexdrinker is also viable as you explained.
EDIT: Doing it every time now. nothing as good as stacking dblades if you come out of the jungle with wriggles mercs. I get at least 2 of them and sometimes even 4. also I started to max E over everything and it is fucking amazing how good it works.
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Interesting, I've never thought of getting dblades that late in the game (already finished wriggles+mercs). I'll give that a run tonight, if I get the chance to play any LoL. Maxing E is real strong for the increased slow, I've been doing Q > E > W for a bit and it's pretty strong. In lane against bruisers though, W rules for regen+armor bonus.
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I don't really agree with either dblade stack or maxing E, because jungle sin is resource constrained and you have to ensure you don't just insta-die in fights. W gives you not only an extra 200 hp (shared with your ally) every few seconds, it also ups your armor and sustain substantially.
Only time I can remember getting a few dblades was when we were losing pretty bad and needed a short-term edge to come back into the game. I'd rather get resistances and a mix of hp / damage as needed.
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saintvicious starts dblade and ganks at 2. Then he gets another and boots before madred's razor. Something about scaling well with his Q and because he ganks a lot.
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I think maxing E over W is really dependent on the enemy team comp, and even more on your team comp. If you're doing reasonably well (read: up a few kills, maybe a dragon, and are confident in your teamfighting), then I can see maxing E over W since you'll be able to be up in the opponent's face more without worrying about your teammates as much. If you're behind, you'll probably need W for the increased survivability and team-shielding.
resistances and a mix of hp / damage as needed.
This is basically exactly what wriggles+mercs+dblades can give you, l0l. 30 armor from wriggles, 25 MR and cc reduction from mercs, 200 HP and 20 damage from dblades. I think it's worth a try, I'll post here again when I feel like I've gotten the hang of it well enough to comment.
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So since he's free this week, I've had a chance to play both with and against Lee Sin.
My impression is this... he's very balanced. Not overpowered, but still strong enough to hold his own both solo and in team fights. He's one of very few that are actually like this.
Maybe it's just like this in low level play, but I was pleasantly surprised that he wasn't just crazy strong.
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ATeddyBear: dblade start makes sense if you're intent in ganking early. It's dblades AFTER wriggles that I'm against.
On September 01 2011 06:43 HyperionDreamer wrote:
I think maxing E over W is really dependent on the enemy team comp, and even more on your team comp. If you're doing reasonably well (read: up a few kills, maybe a dragon, and are confident in your teamfighting), then I can see maxing E over W since you'll be able to be up in the opponent's face more without worrying about your teammates as much. If you're behind, you'll probably need W for the increased survivability and team-shielding.
You can always find a scenario in which it makes more sense to max one thing over the other, especially on someone so versatile like lee sin. However, saying that and saying "Max E" are two completely different things. Skill paths are a suggestion anyway, not something you follow blindly; you're Expected to switch if it makes more sense that way.
On September 01 2011 06:43 HyperionDreamer wrote:
This is basically exactly what wriggles+mercs+dblades can give you, l0l. 30 armor from wriggles, 25 MR and cc reduction from mercs, 200 HP and 20 damage from dblades. I think it's worth a try, I'll post here again when I feel like I've gotten the hang of it well enough to comment.
I shoulda been more clear, my apologies.
Dblades don't turn into anything. They're a short term investment which isn't optimal unless you abuse them early (200 hp / 20 damage are much less scary at level 11 than at level 4), and getting them that late is going to delay much more important items AND take up valuable inventory space. You'll just end up selling them at half the cost very quickly, at which point you should have just gotten phage and called it a day.
Also, both your Ws scale from flat resistances, in that your shield and lifesteal/spellvamp give you more EHP. I'd get ruby crystal + negatron/chainmail if I was dying to a specific damage type, for example.
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On September 01 2011 07:06 Lanzoma wrote:
Dblades don't turn into anything. They're a short term investment which isn't optimal unless you abuse them early (200 hp / 20 damage are much less scary at level 11 than at level 4), and getting them that late is going to delay much more important items AND take up valuable inventory space. You'll just end up selling them at half the cost very quickly, at which point you should have just gotten phage and called it a day.
Also, both your Ws scale from flat resistances, in that your shield and lifesteal/spellvamp give you more EHP. I'd get ruby crystal + negatron/chainmail if I was dying to a specific damage type, for example.
I agree that Dblades don't build into anything, but how often do you take up all 6 inventory slots before 25 minutes into the game? It's very common to see a carry starting with 2-3 dblades and then selling them as required to build more inventory space.
Obviously getting ruby+nega/chainmail is more cost efficient in terms of absorbing damage, but who says you can't go 2 dblades and nega/chainmail depending on which kind of damage you're dying to the most? I definitely think it's viable just on the theory alone, but I haven't tested it out at all.
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That's the thing. You -start- with 3 dblades because they are more efficient early game, you don't get 3k worth of items and then start getting dblades. 100 extra hp and 10 extra damage when your base hp is 450 and your base damage is 50? Awesome. The same deal at 2k hp and 150 damage? Not as impressive.
Suppose you get 2 dblades. Your inventory is 4 slots full + green wards, which means you only have one more slot to use before you have to start selling them. Ruby crystal + longsword give you the same stats (minus the lifesteal), for the same money, AND they build into a phage (freeing a slot) and possibly mallet late game.
There's honestly, imho, no reason at all to get 2 dblades instead of ruby + longsword at that stage of the game.
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On September 01 2011 14:13 Lanzoma wrote:
That's the thing. You -start- with 3 dblades because they are more efficient early game, you don't get 3k worth of items and then start getting dblades. 100 extra hp and 10 extra damage when your base hp is 450 and your base damage is 50? Awesome. The same deal at 2k hp and 150 damage? Not as impressive.
Suppose you get 2 dblades. Your inventory is 4 slots full + green wards, which means you only have one more slot to use before you have to start selling them. Ruby crystal + longsword give you the same stats (minus the lifesteal), for the same money, AND they build into a phage (freeing a slot) and possibly mallet late game.
There's honestly, imho, no reason at all to get 2 dblades instead of ruby + longsword at that stage of the game.
some math for ya:
ruby + longsword = 180hp 10 dmg (+ 60g)
2dblades = 200hp 20 dmg 6% lifesteal
When you come out of the jungle with mercs and wriggles then SHIT IS ON. Everything that happens now is gamedeciding. Doing more damage and having more survivability is pretty viable imo. Not saying that getting dblades is allways the best thing but its certainly not bad or anything like that because it gives you an advantage for the next 5-10mins, while your ganking, warding and saving some money for your giants belt. Yes it is a shortterm investment but if you can do sth with it (and as a jungler you can definitely do sth with it) then it's certainly worth it.
My conclusion is: both builds are viable and have their advantages. It depends on the gameflow how many dblades (0-3) you should get after mercs and wriggles.
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On September 01 2011 22:43 clickrush wrote:
My conclusion is: both builds are viable and have their advantages. It depends on the gameflow how many dblades (0-3) you should get after mercs and wriggles.
I've been jungling on Lee Sin for a while now, and I feel this pretty much sums up how I go about the Dorans as well. There are so many situations where adding a few dorans makes your midgame so much more powerful. I do feel if you go this route, you need to do some heavy damage, or you're delaying your big followup items by too much.
Personally I like going Wriggles - lvl 1 boots - HoG in many situations where my ganks aren't vital to stay in the game; if we have the lanes decently under control and kills aren't abundant I feel this is the perfect way to get ahead. As soon as I see some lanes in trouble I'll be adding Dorans, Hexdrinker (if some AP gets ahead) or Brutalizer. Personally I'm not a huge fan of Phage unless I intend to build it into Mallet or Trinity, which isn't very often the case.
Then again I also feel it depends a lot on the team setup you have. In many cases there won't be another tank on the team (AP top, or some offensive building bruiser) and that makes Lee a very squishy target if not built to last. In this case going very defensive feels like a better way to go about it - getting that faster hp belt, negatron or armour seems to work out best for me as surviving and disrupting seems a lot more important than the sheer damage Lee is capable of.
Lastly I've been watching Cruzerthebruzer stream Lee Sin quite a bit (mostly laning though) and the Gunblade seems like a really strong item as well. I'm contemplating getting this early on, as the Cutlass alone will make ganks that much more scary.
(As I've been just a lurker here up til now, I'm playing on EUw at around 1600 elo - just to put my opinion and experience in perspective. Also, hi!)
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yeah I feel that gunblade is the nr1 big AD item to get on lee. Some time ago ppl called it a troll item but its amazing how well it works on him. The issue with the item is that you often have to get sth more defensive to be more flexible and durable. But if you can get away with a major AD item then get gunblade. Its crazy how much life you get back with a spell combo on lee if you have WW activated and gunblade in your inventory.
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RE: The Dblade discussion. Since getting two dblades after wrigs/mercs is a temporary solution, you're essentially renting stats, with intent to sell later. So why not buy a longsword and a fort elixir? instead of eating potentially 474g in cost on the dblades, you're only eating 250, while getting essentially the same stats for 4 minutes, and freeing an item slot for wards or w/e.
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Gunblade is a real item on LS, but I think it's only viable going immediately for it in lane, since you won't have nearly enough farm out of the jungle. The only way it might work coming out of the jungle would be to make the bilgewater cutlass first (assisting in ganks with the slow), a giants belt for survivability which aims for a frozen mallet, and then finish up the gunblade.
But yeah, sick item. I rushed it out of lane last time I played solo top LS and picked up a few kills early, and damn, I was a force to be reckoned with in teamfights.
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EPT
